[00:00:00] Angela: And Xuan actually looked at me and he said I’m only gonna propose once.

[00:00:07] Angela: And if you don’t accept, I’m gonna walk out of the relationship.

[00:00:11] Angela: Is that serious, right?

[00:00:17] Cheryl: Welcome back to the Handful of Leaves podcast. Today we are talking about something so many couples feel but rarely say out [00:00:25] loud. We live together, but somehow we are not really connecting anymore. In Singapore, almost half of divorces cite unreasonable behavior and over sixty percent of women say that’s why they filed for divorce.

[00:00:39] Cheryl: So today we are digging deeper into what makes relationship stick. And with me is someone who knows this terrain intimately, Angela.

[00:00:48] Angela: Hello,

[00:00:49] Cheryl: [00:00:50] Angela, you’ve built Almost Peaceful that turn tough conversations into meaningful connection. And I’m very excited to have you here. So can you share with us, what in your journey inspired you to build this work?

[00:01:02] Angela: I spent the last six years working at ministry and helping residents, citizens to understand difficult policies. What I observe for the six years of work is when people are trying to find common [00:01:15] ground they tend to jump very fast into problem solving. And that’s something that I noticed in my relationship as well where either of us is always trying to problem solve.

[00:01:24] Angela: When most of the time what I wanted or what my husband wanted is really a pair of listening ears. So that’s when three years ago when I got engaged, I started to look around in Singapore whether there is marriage preparation workshop that can help [00:01:40] me, my husband better prepare ourself in marriage. Guess what?

[00:01:44] Cheryl: There’re none.

[00:01:45] Angela: Yes, exactly. So we are trying to look for something that’s a bit more zen inspired when it comes to marriage, how do we approach marriage, how do you approach communication whether we want to solve problem or listening ear? So that’s when I realized in Singapore there isn’t such workshop or such training, advice available. [00:02:05] So it has always something at the back of my mind that I always wanted to plug the gap. So that’s how I started almost peaceful which is to help couples turn tough conversation into meaningful connection.

[00:02:17] Cheryl: Wow, that’s very inspiring. Can you share a specific moment where you realize that [00:02:30] we are really just problem solving here, we are not listening to each other anymore and what you learn from that?

[00:02:30] Angela: In fact there is a major actually the transition from dating to marriage, actually quite a scary phase because you are going to enter a different identity.

[00:02:39] Angela: It makes sense

[00:02:44] Angela: to get married

[00:02:44] Angela: It’s the normal next step. yes, yes, yes. So in Singapore it’s very normal you date for some time you are serious in the relationship, you go get married.

[00:02:50] Angela: For me, at that point in time, I just felt like I prefer the dating [00:02:55] stage, why do you need to move into the official marriage where there are so many other senior stakeholders involved and then you you have to move out of your own place. My mom’s place which I really enjoy staying with her with my nieces nephew and the convenience of being at my mom’s place versus having to set up your own home.

[00:03:14] Angela: So the conversation when

[00:03:17] Angela: Okay, this one I never tell people before.

[00:03:19] Cheryl: Wow, we can hear it [00:03:20] first time.

[00:03:22] Angela: So the conversation when I told Heng Xuan that I am not ready to move into marriage life. I prefer to stay dating life where we are now, it’s good, it’s comfortable and And And Xuan actually looked at me and he said I’m only gonna to propose once.

[00:03:44] Angela: And [00:03:45] if you don’t accept, I’m gonna walk out of the relationship.

[00:03:48] Angela: Is that serious, right?

[00:03:52] Angela: And he has always been someone that is he meant his words, very sincere. Always putting in effort in the relationship and that was when I realized that this thing is serious right. I need to take time to decide whether or not to transit to the marriage life.

[00:04:06] Cheryl: And it seems that both of you were at different paces at that time. What helps you [00:04:10] to make that decision as a couple?

[00:04:12] Angela: Whether to go get married or not right? Woah this one very drama ah.

[00:04:17] Angela: So I applied half day of leave from work, I told Heng Xuan, I want to time out. So I told I told him that I want a three days time out from the relationship where we don’t text each other, we don’t meet, really just giving me the space and time to think because marriage is a big thing.

[00:04:32] Angela: I don’t want to rush into it, I don’t want to act out of [00:04:35] anger. So I I took half day leave, I asked for a three days time out from my boss, my husband then my boyfriend and I packed this picnic bag with apple, hot tea, and when I went to MacRitchie where I took a very very long walk. And that was when I was walking at MacRitchie, and then I saw this young couple walked past me. And then at the moment in my mind I was young couple. [00:05:00] The next moment immediately there was this elderly couple that walk past me in my mind, I said, oh that’s so sweet. That was the moment when I realized that I want to grow old with someone. And I cannot see anyone else except for Heng Xuan.

[00:05:14] Cheryl: Wow, that gave me goosebumps.

[00:05:16] Angela: I know right. So immediately, I texted him. And I said that no need the three day time off already. That’s how I got engaged I got married.

[00:05:24] Cheryl: [00:05:25] Tell me a little bit more how did you know this was the one and how do you know you know you are not, you’re making the right decision, not something that was emotional, sentimental.

[00:05:38] Angela: It’s a combination of effort as well as time. So effort because we are always constantly trying to get to know each other.

[00:05:46] Angela: We don’t assume that we already know you since you are seventeen, you are [00:05:50] always the same person. So it’s really spending effort and how do I know that it’s the right person is really practicing the same believe. That’s very important. So having the same values, having the same belief that guides us and of course it’s about time, right, spending time with each other.

[00:06:08] Angela: yeah, that helps to know that he’s the one and is he the one? I hope so.

[00:06:14] Angela: I actively [00:06:15] practice what I teach for my

[00:06:17] Angela: couple in my relationship.

[00:06:20] Cheryl: And you mentioned a really good point that marriage is an active process and effort. So talking about marriage and the life after In Singapore actually the largest share of divorces happened around five to ten years of marriage. um often you know when the couple are [00:06:40] juggling different stages of their careers, inlaws, mortgages. What do you think makes that time such a risky and vulnerable period that makes even the strongest couple slip in their relationship?

[00:06:52] Angela: It’s absolutely brutal. Marriage where it’s five to ten years that’s the real brutal stage in Singapore where couples are juggling with their career, they are also having young children and not [00:07:05] forgetting the aging parents

[00:07:10] Angela: on top of the mortgage being stuck in generation that’s your demand and then there’s the finances demand. So that’s where. the crack starts to happen and they are not being sealed up. At the start of the relationship, You are curious towards each other, you are curious about each other, you spend time, you prioritize each other.

[00:07:28] Angela: When life get busy with all [00:07:30] this priority, what happened in most couples is that they give hundred and ten percent to work, hundred and ten percent to that aging parents, hundred and ten percent of the young children. Whatever is left, ten percent, twenty percent on the relationship. So you see that’s the problem, right?

[00:07:45] Angela: They are spending the remaining energy, whatever is left on relationship.

[00:07:50] Cheryl: And more often than not that means bringing your worst self to your relationship.

[00:07:54] Angela: That’s right, [00:07:55] so the stress, anxiety into that relationship pillar.

[00:08:00] Cheryl: What do you think can be helpful because sometimes it’s inevitable as much as we say don’t bring your work home, you just can’t stop the first thing when you wake up, it’s about work, the last thing that you think about it about work. How can people prioritize each other in their relationships?

[00:08:16] Angela: So the good news is this can be prevented and [00:08:20] that is where you have the mindset of being curious to each other. So in mindfulness based stress reduction which I’m trained in, we call it the beginner mindset.

[00:08:33] Angela: So you always begin assuming that you don’t know everything about your partner yet. And you have that curiosity, right, you want to know how was the day, was there anything that made you smile, was that something that I did recently that you feel [00:08:45] loved. So that’s where you continue to be curious about each other.

[00:08:49] Angela: Actually love is a verb. It’s not a noun.

[00:08:51] Angela: And that that requires a lot of effort and in Buddhism, the we talk about right effort. effort is not just working hard. Effort is about directing your awareness with intention. So when it comes to relationship it’s about being curious with each [00:09:10] other and having that this micro moment all this add up.

[00:09:13] Angela: It’s not a grand gesture where you buy beautiful things, you have beautiful experience, grand expensive. But it’s really all this micro moments that.

[00:09:23] Cheryl: I’m very curious about your relationship. In the fourteen years or so you are together, was there a moment where you felt that you kind of lost that curiosity and interest

[00:09:33] Angela: to each other and brought back that spark.

[00:09:34] Angela: [00:09:35] Definitely in the season of life that’s up and down that period where you are busy, there’s period where you are trying to strive for your career.

[00:09:41] Angela: for me it’s less of the career, but it’s more of the caregiving for my late parents that’s where I had to prioritize them and I’m glad I did. Right. But because of the prioritization of my late mom and that means that other things have to be second third, fourth priority. [00:10:00] So that’s a shift right. So instead of my husband being the priority and my career being the priority, my mom is a priority.

[00:10:07] Angela: And that shift means that certain things have to go, certain things have to change. So it was tough because I was going at the place where I was giving a caregiving for my mom and I wasn’t coping that well because there was a lot of stress emotionally and physically. [00:10:25] I de-prioritized my career, but I didn’t verbalize to my husband.

[00:10:29] Angela: And he had the assumption that I was going at the same pace as before. So he was giving me a lot of suggestion for my business out of good intention right, you just don’t want to help your wife succeed, you are the cheerleader, he is the cheerleader for me and he wanted me to succeed but I was at the pace where my career is actually my third priority at that point in time.

[00:10:49] Angela: And [00:10:50] there’s a mismatch of pace. He wanted me to be at the same pace as before but I couldn’t, I know that I didn’t have the capacity to be at the pace where I want to be. Not now. So I didn’t communicate to him and that’s where we have a bit of that frustration

[00:11:04] Angela: and I just felt like I’m caregiving now, I’m regulating myself, I’m glad I am still functioning. I still can show up for volunteer, sport and show up for myself. Why is it that there is this uh tension in the [00:11:15] relationship. So that’s where we have our monthly uh couple chat, we we usually go to a cafe to have a monthly chat.

[00:11:22] Angela: So that’s where I surface tension and I said that actually what I need now is the space to prioritize caregiver. career at this season of my life is third priority.

[00:11:37] Angela: So asking very clearly asking very clearly that I need space. I [00:11:40] appreciate your suggestion but even if you give me, I won’t be able to look at it immediately.

[00:11:46] Cheryl: Monthly dates just to catch up with each other. That sounds really amazing! For our audiences who want to have monthly chat in their relationships, how do they get started with this?

[00:11:57] Angela: Having it monthly is a really good rhythm. So building rhythm in your relationship and having it at cafe [00:12:05] is up to you, your choice.

[00:12:06] Angela: What’s more important is the content. So there are three things that we talk about during this monthly couple check in.

[00:12:14] Angela: The first is about yourself. So you ask question about in the past month, what’s one thing that you are proud of, what’s one thing that you wish you could have done better? The second pillar is about relationship.

[00:12:27] Angela: What’s one thing in the past month I’ve done that make you [00:12:30] smile? What’s one thing you notice about me that you really love. And the last part is about future goal. So in the next month, what’s something that you are excited for individually and in the next month, what is something that you are hoping for that we can experience or do together.

[00:12:49] Angela: So you just keep repeating the same set of question, [00:12:55] you keep repeating month for month and that helps you to be curious. to each other, right, because thirty days, thirty one days is a lot of time, many things can change

[00:13:02] Cheryl: And I really love how you also incorporated the part of the vision of what you want to do together because a lot of people get so lost in the mundane.

[00:13:10] Cheryl: I wanted to shift gear to bring us into something all relationship, all couples face, conflict. And the number one challenge about -conflict is that many [00:13:20] people find themselves stuck in the same cycle.

[00:13:21] Angela: There are patterns that keep repeating. The first pattern is the avoidance So when one person want to talk about it, the other person just want to avoid. sweep it under the carpet. And that what happened resentment resentment built up and over months it just explode resentment doesn’t go away without having actively working on it.

[00:13:44] Angela: So that’s the [00:13:45] avoidance pattern that I see and a lot of what we do in the workshop is sitting down and Go topic by topic. So instead of just opening the whole kind of worm and say that what what are you avoiding about what you. It’s really about going topic by topic, right? So during the workshop where I run for my couple, so we will begin with dealing with conflict resolution and then there is the finances and then there is your in-laws, your [00:14:10] future goals.

[00:14:11] Angela: So there are different topics right. Then you realize that some they are very good at They don’t avoid. Some they tend to avoid. So that’s where you go topic by topic to help them talk about it in the safe space and also using fun way using board games to to understand more about each other to just using play as a way to learn about each other. So that’s something that I realize can help those who tend to avoid [00:14:35] difficult topic using play and using topic. The second time of people, the couple come to workshop, I realize the other. I call it the mind reader.

[00:14:47] Angela: So what what the reader right? The word implies that if you love me, you know what I want. Love is enough. You know what I want. A lot of times couples that come to my workshop they are like I don’t know. he or she doesn’t get [00:15:00] it.

[00:15:01] Angela: And then I asked have you communicated? No, I expect them to know.

[00:15:06] Angela: If you love me, love me, they will know. So so so in the workshop we always use this magic formula about Soften start up. how do you communicate your us in a way that is soft yet specific. So it’s a formula where it’s about this [00:15:25] is how I feel when this incident happened and my ask. So instead of saying you say you put your phone away lah.

[00:15:32] Angela: Meal time they are always using phone instead of having connection. So instead of saying Use phone again lah. Passive aggressive, passive aggressive the mind reader. So mind reader plus passive agressive.

[00:15:49] Angela: So I always tell [00:15:50] them that the magic formula, right? I feel lonely when you use phone during meal time. Is it okay if you put aside the phone for twenty minutes so that we can connect. Okay you see the difference?

[00:16:02] Cheryl: I would imagine the toughest thing to do is even naming and identifying the emotion and then the second thing is of course ego right like if you love me, you care [00:16:15] for me, you should not want me to feel lonely.

[00:16:18] Cheryl: So how do you encourage people to use that, especially I guess in the Asian context it’s really weird to your feeling and this kind of thing.

[00:16:28] Angela: It’s a piece of muscle that you can grow over time, self awareness awareness of your emotions that feeling. Emotion is nothing wrong with it. There’s nothing wrong with emotions, whether [00:16:40] it’s it loneliness, whether it’s anxiety, there’s nothing wrong with it.

[00:16:43] Angela: The thing is being aware of it and communicating that, that that is a super power. The more you are able to build this muscle, the more you are able to avoid miscommunication, avoid the mind reading and the passive aggressive.

[00:16:56] Cheryl: Can you share with us, the hardest relationship lesson you have to learn in your own marriage. [00:17:05]

[00:17:05] Angela: I think the hardest lesson is bringing in your baggage from your own life into the marriage. So for me, I am a hyper independent person since you because of the way I was brought out.

[00:17:24] Angela: So when I was seven, my mom was a babysitter and she just couldn’t bring me to [00:17:30] primary school. So at seven I learned to be independent, to walk by myself to school uh when most of my friends they were brought by parents or being chauffeur. So that independence started since a young age and that brings into the relationship and it’s a fine line between interdependence between two persons and being independent as a person.Can you explain more about interdependence [00:17:55] what does that mean?

[00:17:55] Angela: In a relationship it is a partnership between two persons.. Being hyper independent, there is a cost. Because being hyper independent makes your partner feel that, eh, am I not needed? Am I not helpful and that there’s a question mark because you are hyper independent. [00:18:20] So at the start of the relationship, I’ve always always rejected when offer help or just like you know like like simple things like oh walking me home.

[00:18:32] Angela: I feel like myself I got got seven years old. Ya, why? em ya so there’s this hyper independence part that I bring to [00:18:45] my relationship. But the thing is it’s not about losing who I am. It’s not about losing quality. But it’s about knowing when to bring up the quality and when to tune it down. So you have to navigate that part.

[00:18:59] Angela: So I will always ask for space. So along the way we are negotiated such that once a year I’ll go for my own solo trip. And in my own home as well, I have this library [00:19:10] little small little reading note where I cover the space and it’s like my zone. So that’s where during renovation we agreed that I needed a space for myself not because I don’t love you, but because I need my own space in order to love you more.

[00:19:26] Angela: so you you see when you are able to still live yourself to being independent, still having your own space, you can show up better. [00:19:35] as a partner.

[00:19:36] Angela: So that’s something that I have to learn the hard way, you know, like through through the feeling of the question am I needed, I am not doing good enough there is always this conversation.

[00:19:48] Cheryl: So in this process of unlearning this very ingrained habit of hyper independence, what do you have to let go of?

[00:19:57] Angela: letting go of [00:20:00] being right all the time em that this is who I am. Exactly right. So holding on to the view that this is who I am since seven years old, so you should accept me for who I am at thirty one years old.

[00:20:16] Angela: learning to let go that this identity is shaped by environment. So when I was seven because of my mom’s working condition, she cannot bring the baby, she was a [00:20:25] babysitter, so I have to go my best. shape my environment and now that we are together as a couple again my environment has changed. So that can shape my identity.

[00:20:34] Angela: So it’s learning to let go of the the the fixed identity, the fixed view and that that identity is right. Not being the identity means I’m wrong.

[00:20:45] Cheryl: That really reminds me of the concept non in Buddhism, where you know [00:20:50] there is no one core identity that remains unchanging rather we are constantly shit. Environment. Actually that’s a good way to see relationship

[00:20:59] Angela: because the moment we see that it’s not permanent, then we are willing to always learn about each other and meet the person where they are. I never think of it that way. I didn’t see the another part in the relationship, I will incorporate that in the next workshop.[00:21:15]

[00:21:16] Cheryl: And if I may I also wanted to just ask about the inevitable en of relationship. What is your thought of that being someone who has experienced losing both your parents and eventually right all relationships have to end. What are your current perspective, [00:21:40] thoughts and reflections that’s all.

[00:21:44] Angela: Mm Important question that is often overlooked because people tend to want relationship to last forever and again it’s a concept of. Anicca Impermanence Nothing last forever. But does it mean that we don’t put in effort now? Does it mean that because the end is there, then we don’t really walk to the end. since we know that we should end.[00:22:05]

[00:22:05] Angela: So it’s the mindset of embracing the here and as a partner, also in relationship, it’s really enjoying the moment, being better together, practicing our values, practicing our faith and if you can, if you have the capacity to serve.

[00:22:23] Angela: Knowing that all relationship come to an end is nothing unique about you. So first you have to acknowledge that [00:22:30] there’s nothing unique that all relationships come to an end. The moment you accept that it’s nothing unique, you embrace that okay, this is natural, right? The Thai word that came to me was Dhammada Tada means it’s normal normal.

[00:22:43] Angela: So accepting that all relationships have come to the end, it’s not unique to you, don’t make it a big hoohaa right? Yes, don’t make it so personal. So how do you accept, [00:22:55] embrace and make the best of the relationship. Whether is it with your parents, whether is it with your current colleagues or whether it with your partner, right?

[00:23:02] Angela: How do you make the best. So again having curiosity towards each other, don’t assume that they are the same person. Don’t assume that your parents always have a health to walk with you, to go overseas with you to take care of your children. Don’t assume that they will always be the same person as they are and don’t take kindness for [00:23:20] granted.

[00:23:20] Angela: When our partner is kind to us, and our parents is kind to us, appreciate them and if we can reciprocate with kindness, right? Yeah, so to me knowing that Th come to an end, it’s not a sad thing. but actually there is beauty in that because it gives you urgency and it helps you to it’s called this life reiser, [00:23:45] help you to cut through life, cut through the distraction and the noise and help you to par.

[00:23:50] Angela: Maybe at this season of life, what’s more important is aging parents.

[00:23:53] Angela: So you spend more time with them every Saturday schedule time to work with them knowing that maybe I just left with thirty more times with them and with your relationship again cut through the noise right knowing that maybe you want to prioritise monthly cafe chat with them. [00:24:10] So helps you to prioritise.

[00:24:12] Cheryl: And because precisely because relationships end, each and every moment is even more precious.

[00:24:20] Cheryl: Okay. So sometimes there are couples and perhaps even couples listening right now who maybe on the brink of giving up. Angela, what would you want to tell them

[00:24:32] Angela: The brink of giving [00:24:35] up, that is not the end. The brink of giving up, that is actually a path, right?

[00:24:41] Angela: It’s a split path where you get to decide Do we have the capacity to continue as a couple? Or do you want to let go of the relationship because letting go is the wiser choice and there’s nothing wrong with each of the path they are taking, but to accept that when you [00:25:00] feel you at the brink point, it’s not the end, it’s actually two path for you to choose.

[00:25:07] Angela: So the moment you know you have a choice, that is a very powerful thing and then what you want to do is to make a not make a choice out of fatigue, not make a choice of anger, not make a choice out of desperation but make a choice because you have run through questions intentionally, you have [00:25:25] asked yourself have we tried things to solve the relationship or are we just doing the same thing repeatedly.

[00:25:34] Angela: You see the difference, right? A we trying different ways to solve the relationship problem or are we continuously doing the same thing over and over again. So that’s one, the second one is do we still have good to each other, do we still have loving kindness towards each other [00:25:50] and that’s important in a relationship and the third one is are you both willing to take responsibility for the relationship.

[00:25:59] Angela: So again, having gone through this three question, couple can decide, can make a choice. If yes, let’s try new things, let’s take responsibility for relationship, let’s take this path. On the other hand, if you have evaluated and you feel [00:26:15] that no this relationship is no longer serving me, this relationship is no longer one where we want to take responsibility we we are over that take the choice to let go of the relationship.

[00:26:28] Angela: Because doing that serves you better. It makes you a kinder person to yourself and that’s where you practice compassion. So taking this choice is not failure. [00:26:40] So we must always acknowledge each making either of the choice, neither of it is a failure, neither of it is being easy on yourself or being hard it.

[00:26:47] Angela: It’s about making choice intentionally knowing that you have evaluated and you are going to make a decision based on what you know at this moment.

[00:26:58] Cheryl: There’s no right or wrong, it’s really the best that you could do with all that you know in this moment. [00:27:05] Okay. And great. So we will come to our one final question for today and what is one small tiny simple step a listener could take today whether you are single, whether you’re in a relationship to feel more connected to someone important in their life.

[00:27:27] Angela: One small step will [00:27:30] be looking at the person’s eyes and of course not when the person is rushing, brushing in the toilet

[00:27:38] Cheryl: Look at me!

[00:27:38] Angela: I say look at me!

[00:27:40] Angela: So at the appropriate moment, asking your partner or your parents what’s one thing that make you smile today. So that’s meeting the person where they are and it also show care right show that actually you are not just asking me how was my day or asking [00:27:55] me about logistics.

[00:27:57] Angela: “Eh the toilet paper buy already anot ah?” So this are logistics. But are we meeting the person where they are asking the person what was one thing that made you smile today.

[00:28:07] Cheryl: And then we come to the end of the episode. Thank you so much, Angela for sharing your wisdom with us. And I hope this episode makes everyone better actors in their relationships.

[00:28:19] Cheryl: See you in [00:28:20] the next episode and thank you for joining us till the end. Bye bye.

[00:28:23] Angela: Thank you.

[00:00:00] Ven Sumangala: You master your life, you master your mind. You cannot live according to how people want you to be or how people perceive you to be.

[00:00:08] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. My name is Cheryl. And today I have Venerable Sumangala as my guest. Venerable Sumangala, is a fully ordained nun of 10 vassas and she’s also the president of Ariya Vihara Buddhist Society, Malaysia’s first Theravada [00:00:25] bhikkhuni nunnery and Dhamma training center.

[00:00:28] Cheryl: She’s also an advisor to Gotami Vihara Society in Malaysia. (add HOL intro clip) How can one be supported in this journey? And how to intentionally cultivate spiritual friendships?

[00:00:43] Ven Sumangala: It’s a very lonely journey because, majority are behaving that way, and you’re behaving [00:00:50] differently. We have to understand that when we walk the path in our life, again and again I say, we are seeking for what? Happiness, freedom. So that is our goal. If we think that, oh, when we have less friends, then we’ll be very lonely. But actually it’s not true. The important thing is kalyāṇa-mitta.

[00:01:11] Ven Sumangala: Friends that are beautiful. In a way that’s [00:01:15] supportive of your mental development. Most of the time, maybe every day, we look into our mind, we can feel the mind is at the lower side, not the upper side. So, who we associate is very important. So the Buddha even mentioned in the Mangala Sutta, what brings blessing number one is not to associate with the fool.

[00:01:37] Ven Sumangala: Number two, to associate with [00:01:40] the wise. Number three, respect those who are worthy respect. So there are altogether 38 blessings. And the Buddha also said, if you can’t find a friend that is better in their wisdom, ethical conduct, generosity in all those good states, then you better not mix. Why? Because it can [00:02:05] actually ruin your whole life.

[00:02:06] Ven Sumangala: You may think that when you associate with a lot of people, you are someone or you will feel very warm around, but no. Even you may have a few friends, but then that few friends is friend that you can really learn from, friends of sunny day and rainy day, friends of a counselor, motivator, and friends who doesn’t actually give up [00:02:30] on you when you are facing trouble. So, these are the friends that is more important. Not how many friends we have. And it is important to have friends that actually growing together, it will help the person to really develop.

[00:02:45] Ven Sumangala: When we don’t have friends, don’t be worried. For me, my best friend is the Buddha. why I think so is that because even we sometimes say, oh, this [00:02:55] is my best friend, they are not taking you as their best friend. Then you feel very hurt. But I think the Buddha is my best friend, and the Buddha said, you know, whoever that take him as a kalyāṇa-mitta, then the path of this happiness and freedom is open. Because they are possessing the path of the Noble Eightfold Path. You’ll find a lot of inspiration and also a lot of motivation and the [00:03:20] way how you can actually improve yourself to that the best human can do.

[00:03:26] Ven Sumangala: And the Buddha will never betray you. And his teaching is so vast. The path that he shows is so clear. And then we still have the Buddha, Dhamma, the Sangha until today that we can actually follow. This path is tested, validated. It’s not talking in the air or just a belief system.

[00:03:43] Ven Sumangala: So, not to worry, you [00:03:45] won’t be alone. And I was always asked, because I used to be alone. I always tell them, I’m alone, but not lonely. In the past, when I would stay in a retreat center, I used also to be alone and when the cleaner come, she always shook her head and saying that, aren’t you boring?

[00:04:04] Ven Sumangala: I tell her and said, I don’t have this vocab in my head “boring”. From [00:04:10] young until now. I used to tell last time my colleagues or whoever, I say if one day I say I’m bored, I say you should tell me, “something wrong with you”.

[00:04:18] Ven Sumangala: I mean the time that we have is such precious. And the thing that we can do is such wonderful. So therefore if we can really see the order of things and we do it and then you get all the result of what it means through happiness and [00:04:35] freedom.

[00:04:35] Ven Sumangala: Then we are not pushed around anymore. You master your life, you master your mind, you cannot live according to how people want you to be or how people perceive you to be.

[00:04:46] Cheryl: It reminds me of the Dhammapada verse where the Buddha said the mind is the forerunner of all things. What you shared about the Buddha being your best friend is so powerful. And I wanted to understand [00:05:00] how have you relied on the Buddha as a best friend in your loneliest times?

[00:05:06] Ven Sumangala: Sometimes we may face with some challenges, and then you don’t know who to turn to, right? When I face some challenges, like one time I remember during my work time in the past, key thing is that when everybody is like chaotic, throw out your anger and your temper.

[00:05:23] Ven Sumangala: “You think I don’t have temper?” That kind of [00:05:25] thought will come. Then reflection come in when you have Dhamma, then I say, it’s dangerous. If the darkness is there and you are the last hope, and if you give in and become dark, then it is worse. Nobody see any light.

[00:05:43] Ven Sumangala: Everybody will be banging at each other and get hurt. So then I tell myself, no matter how difficult it is, the [00:05:50] Buddha went through six years to discover this path. He went through even more tougher things. Then I tell myself, no, no, no, no, no. I should actually continue to uphold this light. Even the light is not very bright, I must keep holding this light. I cannot lose my temper. I cannot lose to join them in the darkness.

[00:06:10] Ven Sumangala: When this light is in the darkness, people can see hope. [00:06:15] People see, can see goodness. People see, can see, yeah, somebody is still holding that. And truly after that, all of them settle down again. So in times of difficulty, when we think of the Buddha, the perspective of what we should do, how we should do, and ability to be more compassionate and more kind in times of difficulty, the Buddha don’t get angry.

[00:06:38] Ven Sumangala: Even people want to kill [00:06:40] him. Not only he don’t get angry, he don’t have fear. So we wish that we can be like the Buddha, nothing to be fearful about the world. Then we have the energy, we have the motivation, and we have also ability to overcome challenges in life.

[00:06:57] Cheryl: When we hold on to the Buddha and the Dhamma, we’re holding on to light, goodness and hope. That really did [00:07:05] give me goosebumps as well. So thank you so much for sharing, Venerable. If there’s one advice that you can share with young people who are feeling disillusioned, also very confused in terms of seeking deeper meaning, what would that be?

[00:07:22] Ven Sumangala: You know, in our life, we have our goal from young, and then now we are on our own. We actually start to realize that [00:07:30] what we always think are not the same as what it really is, for example, especially those who are studying in colleges or university.

[00:07:38] Ven Sumangala: We can think or we can be very proud. Maybe we are very good student and we know like a lot of things, especially technology and everything. But when we come to the workforce, you start to see it is not what it is.

[00:07:51] Ven Sumangala: The reality is such that you are put in a situation that you have to [00:07:55] perform. And sometimes there’s no mercy because the competition is so great. So there’s no complacency of not doing something. And so all the stress, everything comes. So why not we keep to a principle. What life has it entail? What is the purpose of our life?

[00:08:14] Ven Sumangala: And that is very important for us. If we don’t have any principles in our life, then we are going [00:08:20] into the workforce by pushing around, by thinking competition is the way to our success or our happiness. So true fulfilment of life comes from not what you acquire, it’s what your principle is — principle that leads you to the order of things so you don’t have to be disillusioned, having disillusion of reality.

[00:08:43] Ven Sumangala: So come to [00:08:45] reality, face the reality, upskill your knowledge and whatever you need for your career. And then balance your life with the right lifestyle. Now a lot of people their lifestyle is out. When the lifestyle is out, you have to pay extra cost not only for your physical health, but mental health. So principles of life is important. So therefore, why it’s so important [00:09:10] that we have a purpose of life guided by the Triple Gem, the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

[00:09:15] Ven Sumangala: Many people have tested this path and it helps not only when they are monastic, but also when they are lay people, when they are able to live a balanced life. So they still can live a very, very happy lay life, even as a young person cultivating your career. You’d be surprised if you can practice this, [00:09:35] taking the path, the Buddha, Dhamma, and the Sangha as your best friend, as your guide. And then you start practicing the principles of life that protects you, and protect others.

[00:09:47] Ven Sumangala: Then you follow the Noble Eightfold Path. Not that you have to chase after the success, success will come to you without you asking. I think this is my own experience. When I work, they are rank and [00:10:00] file. Some of them work for 15 years, 20 years. I worked there for five years only.

[00:10:04] Ven Sumangala: Then they already promote me to branch manager. I didn’t ask for it. When they interview me, what would I be within three years or five years? I just say to be happy and to make others happy.

[00:10:17] Ven Sumangala: So find peace within and do your best. Serve, share. And I think that is what the quality is [00:10:25] for being successful. Because other than that, the success will come to you. The promotion come to you. I didn’t ask for it, but they come to you because people trust, people see the quality and we feel the happiness.

[00:10:38] Ven Sumangala: Others also feel the happiness. Let success come to you rather than you chase after the success. Then you’ll find peace along the way. I think that is more important in our life because or else we will always feel very stressed, [00:10:50] very depressed, like always lacking of something, never feel content and fulfilled.

[00:10:56] Cheryl: And we are so lucky, we’re so lucky to have the Buddha’s blueprint alive with so many Sangha walking it as well as a direction and example.

[00:11:07] Ven Sumangala: So that’s why we say invest in personal growth, not just to get a worldly skill, but [00:11:15] also the spiritual path, the order of true happiness. So then you become the best version of yourself in the thriving journey of your life. So cultivate those good qualities and these are the protection, it will give you the resilience, the wisdom. Then the path will be even more smooth and easier for everyone.

[00:11:38] Cheryl: Sadhu, sadhu, [00:11:40] sadhu. Thank you so much Venerable, for the sharing and so much wisdom. I’ve learned a lot differentiating that material success is different from true happiness and that each of us have the ability and opportunity in this life to make use of the precious time that we have to walk on the path so that we can experience true [00:12:05] happiness for our own selves.

[00:12:07] Cheryl: And if lay people would like to offer support to your projects, can we find the details in the website or Facebook?

[00:12:17] Ven Sumangala: Yes, in our website, they do publish on the bank that if they want to donate directly or else they can contact sister Siew King. We use that (donation) for the service for the [00:12:30] society, for people to also come to know the Dhamma and also to partake the merits of building this is the very first Theravada Bhikkhuni Sima, nunnery and Dhamma Training Centre for family in Malaysia.

[00:12:44] Cheryl: What’s a Sima actually?

[00:12:46] Ven Sumangala: Sima in the translations, it’s called boundary. So in any monastery that we wanna set up for the proper ordination [00:12:55] of a bhikkhuni, in accordance with the vinaya, rules that the Buddha have set for developing pure community of monks or nuns .

[00:13:05] Ven Sumangala: So they need a sima boundary dedicated for pure action and also purification of impurity in case they have made any offenses. So, this year, in April it was fully [00:13:20] established by 17 bhikkhunis. And there are five Maha Theris.

[00:13:25] Ven Sumangala: So we hope for not only for this generation, but for generations to come, and also for the female who are keen in walking this path. There are also rooms for people to come and practice all year. We have another aspect that we provide, family education for parents and children to come and so [00:13:45] parents who have Dhamma, they can be a good role model for the children.

[00:13:49] Cheryl: Sadhu for all your contributions in building this for the benefit of all. So we come to the end of this episode. I will put in all the links below. And our listeners, please do subscribe to us on YouTube, Spotify, or anywhere you find us. And we hope to see you in the next one. Stay happy and [00:14:10] wise.