TLDR: Meditation always seems so hard to get acquainted with, there is always this inner voice that says, I can’t do it or I don’t do it good enough. However, once you recognize what is making it so difficult, your “enemies” can become your friend too.
How’s your meditation retreat? If the answer is “so so” or “not so good,” congratulations you fit into 99% of what most meditation practitioners experienced. Oftentimes, just having this idea about how our meditation practice should be going is already setting us up for “failure”.
There is an innate judgement or comparison about how our mind ought to be during meditation instead of simply observing it as it is.
We have this expectation on the kind of progress we ought to have, comparing our meditation today with the one we had before, a “better” peaceful meditation.
My teacher, Venerable Phra Ajahn Den, taught me one has to learn and see the moment as it is. The main goal is to be fully aware of what’s happening now in this very present moment. Seeing things simply the way they are has nothing to do with good or bad. Meditate as if there is no outcome or result waiting somewhere in space and time. It’s about learning how we can become more unbiased and resilient to the present moment.
So, what’s getting in the way of being in this present moment?
The Pali Canon speaks of five hindrances, which I rename as 5 frenemies [you have to make friends with your enemies to win the battle right? :)].
They are called (pañca nīvaraṇāni in Pali) or obstructions during meditation, namely: sense desire (kāmacchanda), Aversion (byāpāda), sloth and torpor (thīna-midda), restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca), and doubt (vivikicchā). We have all had moments — perhaps one more than the other — when these emotions arise in our meditation practice.
Sense Desire
Sense desire includes wishing our legs to be less numb; wishing for our weather to be warmer, cooler, or quieter; wishing we are less sleepy. Sounds familiar?
I was given a choice in the temple on how I like to practice my meditation, so naturally, I chose to practice my walking meditation outdoors. It’s not because it is better than indoors. Outdoor meditation provides more challenges: feeling the sweat dripping on your body on a hot day, houseflies buzzing around, and the potential of getting bitten by mosquitoes.
For those who have not done walking meditation before, my practice does not allow me to make any movement other than walking back and forth across a fixed distance. In doing so, I am training the mind to focus solely on the body’s movements and not engage in feelings arising from external disturbances. While walking, I’m taught to be aware and recognize arising sensations.
With that restraint, the sense of desire grows stronger. I wish there will be more breeze. I wish the houseflies could leave me alone and many more.
Embarrassing to share, but before I came to the retreat, I was watching a Netflix series 1899. The show was so intriguing that I would think about watching the next episodes during the retreat and wondering what would happen!
Nonetheless, it shouldn’t be a smooth sailing journey. Without all these sense desires that arise, how do I recognise or understand them better?
The desires seem to get a hold of me, so alluring and yet so unsatisfying at the same time. It is like being trapped in a prison cell you put yourself in, where you have no control.
How do I observe that these desires are so impermanent and are always trapping me in a prison cell?
Aversion
Aversions include being annoyed by someone who is not considerate by making loud noises during the retreat. Or even deeper than that: resentment and anger from emerging memories surface into our practice. We can spend countless hours imagining how we are going to defend ourselves the next time we see that so-and-so. Like a performer rehearsing, we rationalise how we will react and this thought process reinforces our narrative of being the aggrieved party.
We can dig the bottomless hole.
As I have chosen to keep noble silence in the retreat, my friend, who attended the retreat and knew I was keeping my mouth closed, tried her very best to talk to me after being told that I was not speaking. When her solicitation for a verbal response failed, she messaged me on the phone.
She was not even asking any questions about the meditation practice. Rather, she was seeking advice for a poster design that someone was doing for her event (I’m a professional designer).
Half of the time, I was lamenting about this person during the retreat. I realised how silly I was. She didn’t even know I was annoyed by her. So, immediately realising the aversion was not helpful for my practice, I confronted the annoyance.
I stopped lamenting and was aware that my friend is also a human being just like me – someone who needs love and compassion. I sent her my loving kindness and hoped that she could be awakened by her insight in this retreat.
Isn’t letting go of hatred a way to extend compassion and loving-kindness to ourselves in such moments too?
Sloth and Torpor
Sloth and torpor refer to a lack of alertness. It can be mental states of dullness, boredom, sleepiness, or indulging in pleasure, not realizing you are taking the comfort for granted by not stepping out of your comfort zone.
These states are often due to physical causes such as sleep deprivation, exhaustion, or monotonous auto-pilot mode filled with mundane actions.
I woke up at 4am every morning to start my meditation. It does feel sleepy yet I can appreciate the routine – so I can do in the retreat what I normally wouldn’t do in my daily life.
I pushed my body and mind into unusual conditions to see how my mind reacts and responded with the “abnormality”. I will never know how far I can reach without stepping out of my comfort zone.
Restlessness & Remorse
Restlessness is that feeling of wanting to get the practice over with and asking in my mind, ‘Is it time to end my meditation?’
As a designer, I’m so used to thinking about the next step and moving on to the next project. I seldom stop and appreciate the moment of what I had designed or done at that moment.
In this retreat, I let go of the control over my “meticulous” plan.
I went with the flow with Phra Ajahn’s reassurance when he spoke to my friends, who are beginners doing a meditation retreat.
He said, “Every time, I see the faces of my disciples with serious and stressed faces. It shouldn’t be like this. You should be more relaxed and enjoy the process. That you finally had this opportunity to see who you truly are without any distractions.”
Whenever I felt restless, I stopped beating myself up for my incompetence to stay awake, I observe it as it is when it happens. I tried not to control how I should feel but rather to look in and befriend restlessness as a feeling. Once I’m aware of it, I don’t feel restless anymore.
Remorse is a sore spot in memory, where you wish that you could redo something — your mind keeps returning to it, endlessly replaying “woulda,” “shoulda,” and “coulda”.
Where do I even begin?
I can count my blessings. I can also count how much guilt I have borne.
The guilt of not seeing my father when he passed is always there. However, whenever that guilt arises, I will dedicate whatever merits I have gained to him so I can lessen my guilt.
Confront your mistakes. Learn how to untie the knots: by seeing you can’t change anything and have closure like knowing what you can do now to make it better. Follow your breath and let it all out.
Doubt
Doubt could be doubt about the Dharma, the path, your teacher, or your practice.
“Is this the right practice for me?” “Should I take my meal now?” “Should I take more food since I’m not taking food after noon? “Should I be trying something else?” “Does my practice get me anywhere?”
You may be doing mindfulness of the breath and wondering whether you should be counting your breaths, doing mental noting, chanting, or engaging in the choiceless debate instead.
Now, calling these mental factors “hindrances” is a fundamental misconstruction. They can also be our friends if we get a chance to know them better. It’s better to think of mental states as useful tools for a particular purpose.
Instead of wishing the hindrances away, perhaps we can explore them with interest and simply observe them as they are. Can we notice how each sensation or thought behaves without our participation? When we are aware and apply effort to observe, the hindrances become our very practice itself rather than obstacles in the way of practice.
They could be our friends, enemies or frenemies however you want to see them (sometimes their roles can switch too). Whatever it is, hindrances are necessary for our mental cultivation.
If we were so perfect in our mindset if the meditation retreat was so smooth sailing, why do we even need to do a meditation retreat in the first place?
Summary
After all, our minds, like everything else, are interdependent and affected by causes and conditions. Our goals when we practice meditation are to develop three skillful abilities:
1) staying with the object of meditation (Concentration);
2) recognizing when we’ve drifted off (Awareness);
3) returning to the object without fuss or judgment (Equanimity).
When we have a “good meditation,” i.e, when our concentration is strong and we’re able to stay with our object of meditation, we are developing the first skill. Even when we keep drifting off and returning to our concentration 100 times during meditation, we’re still developing the second and third skills.
These may be the most important skills we need to have in improving our daily lives: recognizing when we’re no longer present and returning to mindfulness. It is what we do after the meditation retreat that is more important than the actual retreat itself. Not everything you encounter has to be good or bad, It’s relativity, what’s good for you can be bad, and what’s bad for you can be good too. We should treat everything we face as frenemies. Isn’t that what non-duality is all about? ; )
“You are your teacher. Looking for teachers can’t solve your doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth – inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important.”
Keep watching your mind just as it is. Turning poison into wisdom is the path of the Buddhas. Turning enemies into friends would make your meditation journey a little less bumpy.
Wise Steps:
Do you always feel that meditation is ‘tough’? Or that your meditation is going nowhere? Identifying these 5 frenemies might be helpful
Knowing which of these 5 hindrances affect you the most and how to deal with them will be key to growing in your practice.
Hello, my name is Cheryl, and welcome to the Handful Of Leaves Podcast. Today, we will be talking about crisis, mental distress and suicidal tendencies. This is a very heavy topic and definitely, it’s not the easiest to listen to. Yet, it is the conversation that we all need to hear more of. Globally, nearly 800,000 people die by suicide in the world each year. That is about one death every 40 seconds. Bringing us closer to Singapore, just last year, suicide is the leading cause of death for those between 10 to 29 years old. The numbers are staggering, and you never know who may be suicidal. It could be the person in the room with the biggest smile, or your strongest parent or perhaps even yourself.
Cheryl 00:56
We hope that by talking about suicide by talking about mental distress, this episode will bring you hope if you’re feeling suicidal. And if you know someone who is suicidal. This could perhaps help to shed light on what they’re going through and how you can be of support to them. As a trigger warning, today’s content will consist of suicide and self-harm, as well as depression if at any point you need to tune out, please pause the podcast.
Cheryl 01:25
We will begin with a grounding exercise to centre our hearts and mind as we delve into a dark topic today. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, I invite you to take a deep breath with me. Breathing in deep into your belly and breathing out. You relax. Breathing in the feel a sense of calm. Breathing out, you’ll relax. Breathing in joy and breathing out few at ease, grounded and centre.
Cheryl 02:16
Today’s speaker will be anonymous and we will be altering their voice so as to mask their identity. Here’s a quick introduction about them. The guest has been working in the mental health space for close to five years, helping people with crisis mental distress and suicidal tendencies to find clarity and meaning in their lives. This episode is not meant to be professional advice. If you’re feeling any distress if you’re feeling depressive episodes, please seek out professional help. We will attach some resources at the end of the podcast as well.
Cheryl 02:59
Hello, Kai Xin, hello guest. In conjunction with World Mental Health Month, we will be talking about helping ourselves and others to mental distress and suicidal tendencies. While I was reading through the statistics, I realised having suicidal tendencies or thoughts is so much more common than we think. And I’m really curious to hear your personal experiences, have any of you had suicidal thoughts before?
Guest 03:26
At one point in time, I did have some suicidal views. And it was due to my recollecting about meaning in life, and it led me to philosophical arguments internally and externally with people around me. The conclusion was that there is no meaning. Naturally, suicidal tendencies arose in me. So, in short, yes. I had those fears back then.
Kai Xin 03:51
I have not, but I know of friends who have confided in me who have.
Cheryl 03:55
I find it very interesting when people say they never had suicidal thoughts. I have had suicidal thoughts before. I think it has been from very serious to just fleeting thoughts, like I’m eating a burger and like, maybe death is good, to the more serious ones where I think it’s in conjunction with depressive feelings, where I just stand by the side of the road and waiting for a bus and I just wish that I would just lurch forward and a car would hit me and I just really wish I would die right then. So yes, I have had suicidal thoughts and it ranges in severity, ranges in intensity, depending on my mood as well. And when I talk to many friends, it seems that it is something that everyone kind of thinks about it on and off. And so I thought it was interesting that Kai Xin shared that she never experienced suicidal thoughts.
Guest 04:43
But Cheryl, it must be quite unsettling to have that thought and perhaps even surprising to have the idea of wanting to jump straight into the traffic. You must be going through quite a rough time back then for these thoughts to have arisen.
Cheryl 05:01
Yeah, and I think I cannot like really pinpoint any particular reason. It is just a cloud of like sadness and a cloud of pain. And I do remember, one time when I was driving as well, I was just feeling like, “Okay, I just want to just press the pedal and just go as fast as possible and just knock whatever, or just give up all control in driving, and just let whatever outcome happens.” So it is that sort of feeling that I’ve experienced before. But the interesting thing is that I cannot particularly pinpoint it to one specific pain. It’s just a whole cloud sitting on my head.
Kai Xin 05:39
I’m curious, when was the first time you had such a thought? And where do you think you got those from because, for our guest, it is from a philosophical kind of debate and understanding. And for you?
Cheryl 05:53
I think it’s interesting because the first time I had a suicidal thought, I cannot remember but I remember the first time I felt like giving up. And that was when I was in secondary school when I was bullied. And I just kind of was isolated from everyone, and I just wished to give up. But it didn’t really come across as a suicidal thought. But somehow, I think that’s similar to the theme and concept of just wanting to give up and escape, somehow manifested into a proper suicidal thought of like, really wanting to die. And perhaps it could be the influence of like learning a little bit more about, oh, people can suicide through x x x means and knowing of news of like, oh, people who have actually successfully killed themselves, yeah. And then I think you just kind of form into an idea of “this is a way to escape.”
Kai Xin 06:45
So it’s one thing to get away from the pain, I do see a common thread in the conversations I have with my friends as well, that seems to be one of the options that they are talking about. And I know our guest here, you have been helping people to overcome some of these very difficult emotions. I’m personally quite curious as to your journey, how did you get involved? And also some of the challenges faced, and perhaps also some advice so that we can all know, walk away from this discussion with some tools to help ourselves to deal with difficult emotions as well as to be the right support for our friends who are dealing with such emotions.
Guest 07:27
First, I’d like to acknowledge what you said earlier, in response to what Cheryl mentioned, you mentioned that Cheryl felt suicidal, more in a sense of not wanting the pain to continue. And in fact, that’s the sense of what I get to when I meet or talk to some of those that are suicidal. It is not exactly that they want to die, it’s that they want the pain to end and that they feel stuck. And there are no other alternatives apart from suicide. So that seems to be a common mental framework. For some who may feel suicidal.
Onto your question regarding the reason why I joined this organisation to do what I’m doing right now, which is working with those who are in mental distress, helping them through their suicidal thoughts. At one point in time, my friend, good friend went through a very rough breakup. And he was feeling very suicidal literally, every other day, he would call me and tell me that his heart feels so much pain that he would rather die. And at one point in time, there was one night about 1am that I had one of those calls, and suddenly he hung up his phone. So in a state of panic, I took a cab to his place. And in that cab ride, I called the suicide hotline here in Singapore. And what did they respond? It was actually an automated response. I’m on hold for about 15 minutes, maybe 10 minutes. I don’t remember. But it was quite a while. And that’s when the thought arose, and me that oh dear, there are other people who are in crisis, and there’s not enough supply of help of resources.
So that’s when I set the intention to want to help people in this space and mental health, be it suicide, or mental distress in whatever shape or form. And many years later I’ve had the chance to join the field. And so I did.
Cheryl 09:49
You have been working in the field for about five years. I’m sure you’ve experienced many people’s stories and many pressures. experiences with the people that you interact with. Can you share with me, you know, what is the most memorable one from your experience?
Guest 10:08
One of the most memorable ones that I had was of this young man, boy, teenager, 16-year-old. And he has been contemplating suicide for a long time. So one of the sessions when we spoke, he sounded very certain, he was adamant that this is, I’m going to go. So we spoke further, to the extent that we talked as if it was his last conversation since he was so clear.
And that was when he opened up to all of his past life stories. In that final conversation, or the simulated final conversation. He explains that he ultimately missed his dad who has passed away. Dad is, Dad was the only person who can understand him. And now he’s the only guy in the family. So he is taking on the brunt of bringing home the bread, even though he’s still 16 years old, and the mom doesn’t really care for him. This is utter neglect and loneliness. And he felt bad, and juxtaposing that with his thoughts of suicide, he realised that to truly honour his dad who has passed, he should live on and live the values that his dad has taught him. And that was something that I thought, left an imprint in me that I couldn’t really forget. Yeah, the only way to live is to carry on his Dad’s values.
Kai Xin 11:47
Wow, that’s really powerful. And it almost gives a new purpose in life, right? Because I can’t say for sure, but from my understanding, especially friends who have depressive and suicidal thoughts, what I sense sometimes is that they feel like a burden to the world. And maybe it’s better for them not to exist. So besides escaping from their own pain, it’s actually out of very good intentions, almost at the expense of their own welfare. That maybe it’s okay for me to, leave this hole and other people’s life would go on. And I think what you just share is so powerful, because it gives a new purpose and reason to live, and then to also be helpful and valuable to society. So from the mindset of “I’m such a burden” how can I add value to other people’s lives? I think it’s a strong push forward. I’m actually very curious to hear how you conversate with these people, because number one, you mentioned the long waiting time, right? I’ve watched documentaries as well as especially during the COVID period, the waiting time is so long.
Kai Xin 13:03
I actually did a search online, how I can be part of a volunteer on the receiving end of the Helpline\ but in the end, I didn’t, because I think the barrier to entry is just so high, you have to go through many months of training in order to be able to then handle phone calls. But I feel if I can walk away today with some tips just to be a better friend, or even like a better listener, I don’t know I might save lives. And I hope listeners as well would be able to watch out for some vital signs within themselves or within others to kind of, you know, put a stop to any of these very, I would say undesirable consequences.
Kai Xin 13:44
Going back to the question, how do you usually navigate conversations when people have suicidal thoughts?
13:51
That’s a good question. Because more often than not, we wouldn’t know that they even have suicidal thoughts. So the irony is that the question that we are so afraid to ask is one that we might need to ask. The question is, are you feeling suicidal? And beyond that, or in the midst of the conversation, of course, we know that we don’t have the full picture from the party consent, and therefore we don’t have that position to give advice, where we come in is merely to listen to understand empathise and that’s how we hold the space for them to be able to articulate their own thoughts. And in doing so, helps them by seeing their own thoughts with greater clarity, and thereafter with continuous understanding, empathy, and holding that space. We also ask questions for them to further clarify that. More often than not, they find the conversation helpful to see more of themselves, maybe some parts are hidden, some parts clear, combining both to find a new meeting, new direction.
Kai Xin 15:10
That’s very interesting. So it’s not really trying to fix any issue. But just being there for them, offering them the space for clarity. And perhaps through that reflection, they can emerge with a better option in order to relieve their stress, relieve their suffering. Yeah, that’s powerful. I think sometimes just simple things like presence makes such a big difference. I am wondering for you, Cheryl, when you have those suicidal thoughts, are there instances where you wish somebody could have done something?
Cheryl 15:44
Wow, that’s a tricky question. I think it’s very hard for me, and I think many others that I hear as well, when they experience suicidal tendencies. I think because of the shame that people have associated with this kind of thought. The tendency is to isolate yourself. So you know, you close yourself in a dark room, you close yourself under a blanket, or whatever it is. And, it’s to just hide with it. And when you do that, the tendency just become louder, the tendency occupies the entire space. And the last thing I want would actually is to reach out to people. So I do admire the courage or perhaps is not even courage, perhaps even desperation right, for some people to seek help, because they may be very fearful of actually doing the deed. But usually, I will just simmer in there. And what helps is actually the reflection of Dhamma in the sense that even if I were to end the body, the form, the mental states are negative, the kind of attachments, the delusions are still there abundant in my mind, I will have to restart the game in a new body, this time with a lot more bad karma, and a lot more obstacles to what is already a very challenging path. So, fortunately, or unfortunately, (because sometimes I really just wanted to end,), the Dhamma kinda forces me to keep afloat and keep going. But I will say it is a lonely and very alone kind of process because it is something that is not social, it is not something that you openly share with others.
Kai Xin 17:27
And I think there’s so much need to destigmatise, the word ‘suicide’, and also destigmatise just negative emotions. It’s such a human thing to feel pain, in fact, is the first noble truth, right? Understanding suffering. And yeah, I admire your courage for even sharing your own personal journey and do know that you have friends like us, who are here for you. I’m also just wondering, how would it be if friends were to reach out to you when you’re isolating?
Cheryl 17:58
I will secretly feel very happy, but I would feel surprised most of all. Surprised that people would suspect. It’s something that you right, Kaixin, sometimes when you’re in a not good mood, because you’ve always been the person that support others, so people usually wouldn’t think of you needing help. So is that similar kind of surprised that, “Oh, you actually would think that I need some help? Or you would actually associate me with something so unpredictable? Right? Yeah. So that is why I would feel surprised. And then, unfortunately, it will be scepticism, it will be how long would this person be here for? How long would this person care? In five minutes, in a week the person will get bored and busy. So I don’t know if it’s a stigma or if it’s something that perhaps our guests could share more? Do you notice trends like that, where people always feel very alone, very sceptical and doubtful of everyone else? And putting up a high barrier to anyone who even tries to reach out?
Guest 19:04
That is definitely a relevant question because the more we feel suicidal, the more we may, like Kai Xin earlier mentioned about feeling like a burden to society and therefore, want to isolate ourselves. The CDC, which is the US organisation that classifies suicide under disease, quote, unquote, actually indicated that one of the causes of suicide, the factor that promotes suicide is the stigma itself. When having the stigma, we choose not to speak about it. And therefore we don’t engage in help-seeking behaviour. We don’t even talk about it.
Guest 19:48
Everything is just bottled up and there come your thoughts that cycle through themselves with no additional inputs. That’s one element of isolation. The other you mentioned thereafter, when someone approaches you, you feel a little bit of scepticism. Yeah. How long will they even be here for me? So this is something that I’m not really sure how to answer. Because the level of scepticism may differ from person to person. But what’s generally the trend is that those people who have suicidal tendencies, if they have those tendencies, due to a dull view of the world, the level of scepticism tend to be relatively high. So I would say it may compound the effect. And the feeling of being let down when someone was initially there offering help, and thereafter goes away, the person is engaged in other things. The feeling of loneliness comes back, which is why it’s quite a difficult problem to tackle. Because even good intentions may lead us to hell. As that phrase goes.
Kai Xin 21:06
It does sound really tricky. I think there are two ways to look at this right. One is, of course, we have a support system, but some support system, they might not have the capacity to support us 100%. Then the other aspect, it’s about supporting ourselves. So if I have suicidal thoughts, what are some ways that I can deal with this thoughts? And I’m wondering whether you have any, I wouldn’t say advice, but just like thoughts on this.
Cheryl 21:35
Before that, I thought it may be interesting also for our guests to share. What are some of the reasons that people could go down the path of suicidal tendencies or even suicide? And then of course, back to Kai Xin’s question on, how can we then, you know, help ourselves in this way.
Guest 21:55
So there are many reasons why people go into suicide ideation. Maybe we simplistically would classify into two factors.
One is when there is a crisis happening, maybe you get fired from your job, you come home to find your spouse leaving you, your parents have cancer, all things piling up, your plate is full, and you feel stressed. The level of certainty in your being is destroyed. And in times of crisis like that, when the emotions run high, suicidal thoughts may come. And if the stress is too unbearable, one may take the action. That’s one element.
The other side of things is more of a continuous thought building up, it could be due to many reasons that we may not have the time to cover here. But could be due to like your philosophical views, your dim view of the world could be due to constant loneliness could be due to childhood trauma, or mental illness, especially. So these broadly two categories, due to intense situations are coming in together, or more of a prolonged, almost chronic aspect of suicidal ideation.
And on Kai Xin’s question, if we found ourselves to have those thoughts, how do we in a sense manage themselves out of them? Or manage through them? The fact that we can catch those thoughts initially would, I think, be a trigger for us to find solution, and not to mull over them. I think this conversation helps in that our listeners would be able to then put, like an additional antenna to realise that hey, oh, no, now, I haven’t suicidal thought. That is interesting. Bring forth curiosity, where the thought comes from, and thereafter investigate the causes for those thoughts. Is it due to certain life events, certain stress that we can’t manage? Or has it been there for a long time? That’s the first thing catching it is one.
Secondly, of course, seeking professional help, is always the ideal thing to do. You could go to a counsellor to talk things through and thereafter, you may get a prescription, or rather sorry, you may be referred to a psychologist for prescriptions if needed. So the diagnosis will then help you to take a step further down.
On the other hand, talking about preventive aspects, before even having those thoughts, our normal practice as Buddhists is to reflect on them. Five unavoidable events, right. The five remembrances on Ageing, illness, death on our Kamma. It helps us to view the world in perspective where we expect crisis to happen, we expect those events to happen to us. And when the suicide ideation arise, we can look at it objectively to know that this could be due to other conditions that we have no control of, but we expect them to come. So maybe in brief, those are things that we could keep a note of.
Cheryl 25:20
Could you share on the five remembrances, I think you mentioned four points.
Guest 25:26
So the five membrane says, We are subject to ageing, illness and death, and we have not gone beyond them. The fourth one is that we will go different been separate from the things that are out there, and the things that we love. And the last one is that we are the owner of our actions. And whatever we do, we will inherit the consequences.
Cheryl 25:50
Thank you so much for sharing, and also for really inviting us to investigate with curiosity, our thoughts, I have a question here. Because from my own personal experience, I feel like when I do have these thoughts, or even any sort of emotion, it feels very overwhelming. And the last thing that I want to do is to go into them to investigate, because it’s already so overwhelming to just experience them. So any advice on perhaps how to regulate myself?
Guest 26:26
Definitely, that can be a challenge when emotions run high. So perhaps the tendency to want to use the five remembrances or to reflect on the Dhamma as for those that are more cerebral, but when we know ourselves, our own human selves, our own tendencies.
If we know that the emotions run high, acknowledge the emotion, let them arise, feel through it, it is part of the journey of self discovery, though, we also have to keep in mind that like this Zen saying to use pain as the mirror, meaning when there is pain, there is suffering. So when we see the intense emotions, we acknowledge that it is there, while at the same time realise that when emotions run high, it’s not fair to us to make any decisions or take any actions at that point in time. So simply sitting with it, for failure to subside, might help. And of course, if that is still a bit challenging for some, talking to someone about it might also allow you to step outside of your emotions, or to feel emotions with someone else. And therefore you can feel a bit safe discussing, talking about what you’re feeling, and to have that second point of view, or sounding board.
Kai Xin 27:44
From my experience, speaking to friends, what they have found helpful is also to recollect the goodness. So I think when your mind is very dark, and Tao, all you could think about, it’s all the negative stuff. So having a list like a go to lists of what are some virtues you have, or photographs of things that can jolt some happy memories, just to brighten the mind a little bit. I think that is also something that is really powerful.
I want to just add on to the point that our guest have earlier about the five remembrance because for people listening to it for the first time, it can sound really depressing, like, you know, I’m, I’m still subjected to death, then why don’t I just end my life right now. But from a Buddhism perspective, because we don’t believe in nihilism means this is not your only life. If you end this life, you would then need to continue. It’s like a series, right? We watch drama. And then there’s a new season new episode, and you never know, whether you will take a form of a human and animal or even a being in a hell realm or heavenly realm, it all depends on the causes and conditions, which is the karma, you know, we are owners of our karma. And I think that becomes really sobering, because it is about going beyond death. It is about not just understanding pain, but seeing how exactly can we go beyond pain. And that’s exactly the roadmap that the Buddha has given to us. And if we really want to be free from suffering, then we have to understand the second noble truth, which is there is a cause of suffering, the clinging, the attachment. And then the third one is there is a way out. And then the fourth one is the way out, which is the Noble Eightfold Path. And that’s the only sustainable way in order to Yeah, to be free from any kind of distress.
Kai Xin 29:42
So personally, I find that to be really sobering. And I also know of friends who, like you Cheryl or when you just think of like, okay, if I were to end this life, I don’t know when my next starting point would be, and there’s a lot of negative, you know, karma and energy as well. That itself is really a very powerful thought to stop them on their feet. So I think I just wanted to make that clarification for people who do not know the five frequent recollections of truth. Yes.
Guest 30:12
Thanks for clarifying that Kai Xin. Definitely the view of Buddhism may seem nihilistic or depressive, when we look at the first noble truth, there is suffering or life is suffering. But when we go further, Truth Number Three is there is a cure to suffering. So it is not the be all end all, there is a way out. And that is when the nihilistic view ceases, and we go on into a more hopeful view in Buddhism.
Cheryl 30:47
I want to share a quote that I heard or I read, which says that whenever there is suffering, there is the opportunity to be free from suffering.
Kai Xin 31:00
I think it’s really how we make use of our circumstances. I’m not trying to oversimplify it. But the real truth, it’s really about perception of our own circumstances and how we make of it. Of course, then the next step is how can we expand our capacity to then perceive, you know, things in a beneficial and skillful way?
Guest 31:25
Well, what you mentioned there Kai Xin about how we perceive things, and that reminds us of the Sallatha sutta, , which talks about the two arrows, where it’s that everyone, regardless of whether you’re a practitioner, or a non-practitioner, you will feel pain, and that is the first arrow that comes. But the non-practitioner or those that are uninstructed, according to the Sutta, will lament, will mull it over, will beat themselves over it. And that creates a second arrow that puncture through the person, wherever the well instructed disciple would not do that. They will see the drawbacks, that arising the passing away of those emotions, and prevent the second arrow from getting them.
Kai Xin 32:11
I think there’s a quote that says, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Something like that.
Cheryl 32:19
Is a Facebook quote or something? Yeah, I think I think that’s a very beautiful thing to realise, at any present moment where you’re suffering, are you holding on to two arrows? And are you like squeezing it a little bit harder to yourself? Or are you actually putting in the effort to try to pull the second one and then the first one. So in a way, not easy, not easy at all. But it’s helpful to know that, in all of these things, we do have the capacity to realise that we have the option, as difficult as it may be, to still free ourselves from anything that is unnecessary and additional.
Kai Xin 33:01
And I’m also wondering, in the process of trying to pull out the arrow, it’s probably going to hurt even more, isn’t it? So then, okay, number one, is that true? Like from experiences? And then number two, how can we develop that tolerance and patience to really just end your intensity of emotion as we are going through the healing journey? Because sometimes, I believe when we are hitting the tipping point, but if we just wait a little longer, it’s either we break through or we break down, then? Yeah, how can we be able to see that?
Guest 33:38
That’s a very tough question when I don’t have an answer.
Kai Xin 33:43
For reflection, because even though I have not encountered suicidal thoughts, but I wouldn’t say for sure that in the future I might not have I think it really depends on how I guard my mind now. And even when dealing with very difficult and intense emotion, I have the tendency to want to push it away. And the more intense it gets, the more averse I feel. So I suppose the question is also for myself, right? Because I don’t have an answer. Like, how can I just sit with the pain even though it’s friggin painful. It’s tough. Yeah.
Guest 34:16
So like what we spoke about earlier, when emotions run high, logic is low. So it’s always important to preempt ourselves that we should never make any intention, decision, action when emotions are running high. And this is more of a general point also, especially when we’re with our partners or at work when we argue, emotions, run high. Keep that in mind to not react. That’s of course easier said than done. But as practitioners, the element of mindfulness is something that we continue to cultivate, easy or not, and that is the true test of being a practitioner, I’d say. Emotions getting the better of us.
Cheryl 35:03
And I guess this is where the precepts or even the practice of restraining yourself comes into play. Because when your defilements are high, when your emotions run high, as you mentioned, it is where we it, we are so tempted to just nail the shit out of the person, right, that we really despise, be that someone else or be that ourselves. So it’s the element of really restraining, and I guess this is where the self compassion piece comes into play , to know that the suffering that you feel it’s hard like a rock, how can you allow the gentleness, the softness of compassion, just like waves, you know, slowly, just ease out the tension, ease out the cracks, and slowly allow yourself to, I guess, dissolve and melt the pain. Slowly, just like you know, eroding away. Yeah. And I really don’t see any other way that could go through without compassion, because it’s really, you can’t use fire to fire a fire, you can use iron to fight with if you would just create a bigger mess. But that is the tendency, right, you want to hurt your pain, you want to hurt your hurt, because you know no other way. But actually, the only way is through compassion and from there, when your pain dissolves, you realise that all that is there is just that desire to want to be loved.
Kai Xin 36:32
I really like that it’s making self compassion, second nature to you on a daily basis.
Guest 36:38
One more which Cheryl mentioned, initially, mindfulness and then restrain, and then self compassion. in the Sedaka suta, where it was the story of two bamboo acrobats. One at the bottom one at the top. The disciple, the younger Acrobat at the top, actually told his master that was at the bottom, she or he, not sure the gender, but they said that if I take care of my balance, and you take care of your balance, then we will successfully perform. Whereas initially, the master insisted that you take care of my balance, and I take care of your balance. So there was an element there of self, focusing on self first. And in that Sutta, the Buddha mentioned that, indeed, the younger one was saying the right thing to focus on the self. And thereafter, he expounded that by focusing on the self, it is done through mindfulness meditations. And that is how you take care of yourself and in taking care of yourself, you take care of others. So we can see here that mindfulness is important to take care of yourself. And when we take care of ourselves, we take care of others, and how do we take care of others? Again, the Buddha commented that it is through compassion and goodwill. And in taking care of others, we take care of ourself. So it encapsulates what we talked about, about mindfulness, which leads to restrain, which also cultivates compassion.
Cheryl 38:18
And I’m just curious to know, you know, when you do this sort of work, where you deal with a lot of people who almost like presenting their gifts of pain to you, how do you take care of yourself?
Guest 38:33
That question recalled me of what Ajahn Chah said. So he does something similar in in his life, as a matter of fact, people go to him, talk to him about their problems and he told Ajahn Brahm, if I recall correctly, that you must be like a dustbin with a space that is open. Things go in, and then immediately comes out. So that is, of course the ideal state. With me going through this journey, what I’ve come to realise is that the choices are eventually made by them. It is not my choice. I’m here holding space, anything good happens it is to their credit to their own insights, anything undesirable happens, it is through their choice. So that in a way allows me to be at ease with whatever decision that was made.
Cheryl 39:26
I literally just got goosebumps, that’s so powerful. Thanks for sharing. And I think we can wrap up the episode with maybe a final sharing from our podcast guest today. Is there any advice or one thing that you would like our listeners to take away from this episode?
Guest 39:48
Since we are talking about mental health or other mental distress managing through them, it can be us managing them ourselves or us being there for others. I will have to offer two sets of advice. And we go back to what we’ve spoken about earlier. Cultivation of mindfulness allows us to see our own thoughts as they arise, and then try to create that space to respond, rather than react. This will allow us to then seek help in a more objective manner.
And in helping others, definitely, in generating the compassion, and also the wisdom to look, look out for signs and the courage to step up and ask how are you? They will definitely help those around us to allow them to have that space to talk to you.
Cheryl 40:42
Thank you so much. And with that, I hope this episode has been very inspiring and enlightening. And perhaps take action, reach out to someone, a close friend, a friend who’s distant and really truly ask them how are you? Provide a space for them to just share and let you know how they’re doing?
And if this episode has been beneficial to you feel free to also share this. You never know who might need to listen to this today. With that, thank you for tuning in all the way to the end and stay happy and wise.
Links and resources:
National Care Helpline: 1800-202-6868
SOS 24-hour Hotline: 1800-221-4444
Singapore Association for Mental Health: 1800-283-7019
Wholesome Wednesdays (WW): Bringing you curated positive content on Wednesdays to uplift your hump day.
This month is one focused on mental health and mental well being. We often try to understand how we can support our friends. Plot twist: What if our actions are harming them instead? How can identify these signs and do better? The truth is less shocking than we think. Here’s two stories to support our journey in becoming a better support!
1. 6 Signs YOU’RE the Toxic Friend
2. What to say and not to say when supporting a friend
6 Signs YOU’RE the Toxic Friend
Snapshot from the video
What’s going on here & Why we like it
Psych2go, a youtube channel focused on mental health, shares 6 signs that help us identify if we are the toxic friend we wished we wouldn’t be. We like it because we often like to think of ourselves as helping others and being kind to our friends. This video shines a light on our potential blind spots. Don’t root for their success? Enable their negative and self-destructive behaviour? These are some signs that there might be signs of toxicity. Don’t despair if you find these signs in you, it is an opportunity to grow and develop!
“Is it hard for you to say sorry? We all make mistakes…But if your response is to tell others to suck it up and not worry about it without considering how they feel, then you are doing more harm than good to your relationship”
Wise Steps
It is tough to shine a light on our blind spots. Running through this list of signs can help us be the friend our friends need.
What to say and not to say when supporting a friend
Snapshot from Maggie the Therapist
What’s going on here & why we like it
Maggie, a therapist, shares on what are some signs of toxic positivity, why it is toxic, and what we can say to our friends that are feeling down. This provides readers with a very actionable list of things to say when stuck in a situation where we are inclined to say ‘just try to smile!’ or ‘good vibes only’. We love it for its actionability and practicality. Enjoy!
“It (toxic positivity) provides false reassurance rather than genuine empathy”
Wise Steps
Follow and memorise some of the phrases to say if you are often stuck in knowing what to say. Ultimately, we have to also apply empathy and compassion when supporting friends. Though our words are one part of the story of helping others…knowing what to say is a helpful starting point.
TLDR: Being stuck in lockdowns isn’t the best way to start university, but here’s what I have learnt! Studying overseas allowed me to have an open mind and embrace challenges as they came.
“Congratulations! The world is your oyster.”
Like many undergraduates studying abroad, studying overseas was a significant milestone for me. I had many aspirations for personal growth, academic success and ultimately, a successful career.
Though I had many worries about what the future may bring, I knew that it was something I have longed for. I couldn’t contain my excitement as the days approached – the start of my journey in England!
Groups of students were at the airport with their friends and family, but I was alone pushing the airport trolley. It was a familiar yet strange feeling to be at the airport. This time was unlike all previous trips: I felt uneasy and lonely.
This was just the beginning of my journey. It was later filled with moments of unexpectedness. An identity I thought was solid was shown to be transparent.
Here’s what I have learnt during my year abroad:
1. Being at peace with my emotions
Lugging heavy luggage up and downhill, then up a few flights of stairs marked my arrival at college. A physical workout I never expected at a world-class institution.
Then, came my greatest shock: 2 boxes of food that were for half a month of quarantine. Hot meals that I expected to be delivered to my room were merely my wishful thinking.
Instant food and more junk food greeted me as I rummaged through the boxes, only to find out that I was given the same food ration daily.
The reality was vastly different from what I had expected. I was disappointed because I had high expectations of university life. One disappointment after another coupled with homesickness just made things worse.
Being in an unpleasant situation, I learned to slowly acknowledge and accept my emotions. Recognising that emotions were fleeting and impermanent calmed me down. Labelling my emotions made their fleeting nature more obvious.
I was more mindful when unpleasant emotions arose and l grew to be more gentle towards myself. Unhappy times would eventually pass, and so would happy ones.
I started to live in the present and realised I had limited control over the future. We, humans, desire pleasant feelings and want to cling to them, while quickly escaping from unpleasant ones.
Suffering is experienced when things do not go according to our wishes. We feel uneasy and become reactive towards the unfamiliar.
My comfort food was a warm bowl of noodles and not potato chips in the cold weather. I learned to be grateful for the food which provided me with energy instead of viewing it as an unpleasant meal.
“All conditioned phenomena are impermanent; When one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (dissatisfaction). This is the path to purity.” Dhammapada Verse 277
2. Learning to slow down
In Singapore, I was used to the fast-paced life where everything has to be done quickly and efficiently. We are always in a rush to complete yet another task.
In England, I began immersing myself in my surroundings and noticed the little things. I took time to enjoy the brilliant colours of the autumn foliage, sheep grazing the field, birds chirping at dawn and dusk and the paw prints of bunnies when winter arrived.
I made so many discoveries when I slowed down to observe.
The little things which I once paid no attention to were the ones I looked forward to each day.
By relaxing my pace of life, I started to appreciate the people, culture and environment. I was slower in jumping to conclusions and was more willing to understand and learn. I was responding and not reacting to different situations
I felt happier and more relaxed by focusing on what I had, rather than worrying about the future.
3. Staying calm in the face of challenges
One of my favourite places to take a walk
Stuck in the middle of a pandemic, I had to do my laundry, cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping, etc., amidst many assignments and exams. These were previously handled by my parents in Singapore.
Moreover, schoolwork greatly increased in depth and breadth compared to polytechnic. There were much more readings, preparations for seminars, and numerous modules to handle.
Besides, I was studying a subject that was foreign and needed more time to understand the content. The accumulation of the tasks and workload consumed me.
I was experiencing high stress, yet I need to increase my productivity to complete my tasks. Thankfully, I managed to set aside time to find some solutions to get me through these difficult moments. Having exposure to the Dhamma through groups like BFY and NPBS gave me the tools to get through these moments.
– Meditation
Before a study session, I would calm down by doing a short meditation. This was beneficial in decluttering thoughts and giving clarity to focus on tasks.
Day-tight compartments prioritise focusing on the task we have at hand, without being trapped in the past or future.
I would plan out my agenda for the day and break it down into small manageable tasks. Having a plan assures me that I would be able to complete my agendas on time.
During each study session, I would focus on my planned tasks. However, if important stray thoughts arose, I would jot them down and attend to them later.
4. Being appreciative
Being away from my family and friends made me realise their importance and how much I have taken them for granted.
All the little things that I have taken for granted all these years, such as a bowl of home-cooked food or even a short face to face meet-up with my friends and family were the ones I yearned for.
These made me more appreciative of the unconditional care and support that I once took as given. Now that I am back at home, the experience abroad reminds me to spend more quality time with my family and do more for them.
Even though I am currently back in Singapore, studying abroad was one of the most memorable times – wonderful memories and the ones that made me grow.
It made me realise the impermanent nature of things. I was once full of hope for where my educational journey in England would bring me, but ultimately things change, and so do my purposes. This is truly anicca.
Wise Steps:
When an unpleasant situation arises, observe & label the emotions you are feeling and note your reaction to them. What can we do differently the next time it arises?
The next time you’re on your daily commute, take time to observe your surroundings and the greenery that surrounds you.
Identify methods that calm yourself down in the face of adversities (meditation/ taking walks/ day-tight compartments)
Hi there! It’s mental health awareness month. So here’s a reminder that you have to take care of yourself well in order to have the capacity to take care of all other aspects of your life. If life is quite smooth sailing for you. I hope it stays this way. And if you’re going through a rough patch, may you have the mental and emotional strength to overcome all difficulties.
In this episode, we will be talking about empathy. We all know that having empathy creates better relationships with others and is a tool for us to alleviate the suffering of others. But do you know that developing empathy can also improve your own mental health? But how exactly can we cultivate empathy?
Hi, I’m Kai Xin, your host for this episode and you’re listening to the Handful of Leaves Podcast, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life. The path to happiness isn’t a smooth one. We’ll definitely meet with setbacks and challenges around work, relationships, mental well-being and many more. In this podcast, we discuss these realities of life and explore how we can bring the Dhamma closer to home, so that we can navigate the complexities of life just a little better.
Besides this podcast, we also share resources and insights on our Instagram, Facebook, and Telegram channel. Subscribe if you haven’t already done so!
With my co host, Cheryl, we have the pleasure to speak with Gwen Yi, the founder of Tribeless, to teach us how exactly empathy can be cultivated and learned. Gwen is an amazing and highly accomplished woman. Her work has received recognition from TED, Obama Foundation, and The World Economic Forum. Six years ago, Gwen started Tribeless as a social movement for strangers to skip the small talk and to create deeper connections over dinners, one conversation at a time. So heads-up, this conversation with Gwen is going to be a deep one! Tribeless movement has since evolved into a training company.
Gwen and her team developed a structured framework & curriculum on how one can cultivate empathy to improve relationships at home, at work, and with oneself. Their proprietary methodology is used by thousands of people across 30+ countries. Stick till the end as Gwen unpacks the 5-part approach for us. Besides all the practical tips Gwen shares in this episode, she also pulled back the curtains and let us see the version of herself that not many know about.
Gwen identifies herself as a perfectionist. And it’s interesting how she was so candid about her imperfections in this episode. And her being an expert on the topic of empathy, you would have thought that she knew everything about that subject matter. But it seems that she’s constantly unlearning and relearning. And I just find that so inspiring. If you think you know the topic well already, also join us in this episode to unlearn and relearn, and reevaluate different aspects of your life. Now, let’s dive right in.
Cheryl 02:59
Super excited to have you on the podcast today. When you first started Tribeless dinner gatherings, the only rule there was ‘no small talk.’ Let’s use the same theme to start today’s conversation. I think you can give a quick introduction about yourself and then you would have to answer two questions.
Gwen 03:46
Hi, everybody, my name is Gwen Yi. I’m a writer, facilitator and also the founder of Tribeless. We are an empathy training company that operates out of Malaysia, but we service clients and organisations around the world. And our dream is to create a world where everybody has the tools and skills to have empathetic conversations in their lives.
Cheryl 04:07
Thanks for sharing Gwen. So let’s get to know you a little bit deeper. The first question I have is, if the world were to end tomorrow, what would you do on your last day?
Gwen 04:18
Based on how I feel right now, I think I would spend it in nature. I’ve recently been more, I guess, into the idea of being in nature. I feel a calling to be outdoors more and more these days. So, I will be in nature and I will also hopefully take the opportunity to be in conversation with friends, surround myself with my loved ones, and also be outside.
Cheryl 04:51
Would there be any one in particular that you would like to have your last conversation with?
Gwen 04:57
Probably just my partner, Shawn. I learn so much every time I talk to him. He’s such a deep well of wisdom, empathy, and kindness. And I feel like every time I talk to him, I gain (new) perspectives. And if I consciously or maybe unconsciously knew that was my last day on earth, I probably would take a lot of comfort from his companionship and his words.
Cheryl 05:19
That’s so sweet! Why I asked that question is because understanding how you would like to spend your last day really helps us understand what you really value in life. And from the things that you’ve shared, it seems that, finding serenity on your own and with others is important to you. And even till your last day you still want to build relationships with people, and to have that connection.
Kai Xin 05:40
(Second question:) I think a lot of people see the very extroverted side of you. Example: Gwen is so successful, she does so many things, this and that. What do you think, is something people don’t necessarily see, but is what you value very much?
Gwen 05:40
Oh~ Wow, there are two layers to that because I feel like in recent years, I’ve also been less vocal on social media. So, I share less of myself with the world. And it was only recently that I started to think or feel that the idea people have of me is somewhat crystallised four or five years ago. (But) They (probably) don’t know the me now. And only recently that bothered me. I was in the phase of not even caring that people didn’t know who I am or how I feel. It is only recently, that I feel that I’m ready to share myself with the world again but in a more authentic and vulnerable way. Last time, I felt my my vulnerability was maybe a little bit performative. I would say things because I knew that it would resonate with people. And of course, it was my truth. But it wasn’t the full picture. I wasn’t ‘soft’ in it, if that makes sense. I feel like that, in a way, is also indirectly answering your question. These days, I feel like I’m more me than I’ve ever been. I love spending time with myself. I’ve been exploring more into my spirituality, my individuality, all those things. And I think that also necessitates stepping back from social media. Because if you’re constantly sharing about your journey, then you may start to wonder if what I am going through is actually real. Or am I just saying things because I want to share them with the world? So I would say that’s probably one thing that people don’t know about me is that I actually prefer my own company to the company of others these days. And I’m really going deep into my journey with spirituality.
Kai Xin 07:33
So would you say spirituality is something that you are focusing on this year, or in the next few years?
Gwen 07:39
I don’t like the term focus. Because I feel that it implies that every year, I will have that few things that I care a lot about, and everything else I don’t care. I know, that’s not what it means. But I don’t know why I get that feeling. I feel like I am trying to be very conscious about being an embodied human being. And what that means is, every aspect is important to me. So I think particularly spirituality, it has been neglected or even abandoned for many, many, many years, probably my whole life. So yes, it might seem that that is more of a focus these days, simply because I’m starting basically from zero. But that’s just like anything, right? When you’re doing something for the first time, you tend to spend a little bit more energy on it. But I definitely wouldn’t say it’s my sole focus, or the main thing in my life, because everything has equal importance to me. I work a lot on my health (because) I’ve a lot of chronic health issues. I work a lot on my business, obviously, I work a lot on myself, I work on my relationships. So I feel like all those things are all very important, and a part of being a full human. And that would be my focus. I guess.
Kai Xin 08:55
That’s an interesting perspective to look at. Because sometimes we get very narrow-minded by looking at one thing, and everything else is being compromised. Thanks for sharing that.
Cheryl 09:06
I think it also shares the perspective that you’re actually expanding your life to be more embodied. And I am curious to know when you started on the spiritual journey. You mentioned that you’re only just really looking to see the importance of spirituality. What the biggest learning been for you?
Gwen 09:29
I feel like the biggest learning these days has just really been to, pardon my French, take note of my own bullshit. Genuinely, I really had no idea how much, for example, my past trauma had influenced the way I see the world. Through meditation, through going inward and understanding all of that, I realised that a lot of it is not real. So, I need to sift out what is true — true in the universal sense, but also true for me. What is the baggage or things from the past that are actually not true that I’ve been carrying around with me like a ball and chain that is actually holding me back from expansion and living up to my full potential. So, I would say that’s the journey I’m on. And those are the things that I’ve been unpacking recently.
Kai Xin 10:27
Could you share an example?
Gwen 10:29
The one that comes to mind is the belief that nobody likes me, this is a very vulnerable piece for me, because I still don’t know where it came from, and actually makes no sense, yet it makes a lot of sense in terms of (explaining) my actions in the past. Shawn likes to call me “try hard.” And in a lot of ways I am… I was. I feel like the idea that I couldn’t be me, and I always had to only show a certain side of me, or I can only show me in a PR and packaged manner and be presented in a certain way, and that the truest, most authentic expression of myself wouldn’t be accepted. That was a belief I carried for a very long time. And I’m actually in the process of very, very intentionally dismantling it now. It’s been a very interesting process for that.
Kai Xin 11:27
Thanks for sharing that vulnerable aspect. Can you walk us through how you’re trying to unpack that belief to show up as who you are and what does authenticity mean to you?
Gwen 11:45
The more I go into this, the more I realise authenticity is probably my number one value. When I see people not living authentically, or not living in alignment to their integrity and their truth, I actually get very triggered. That is how I know authenticity is important to me. I actually don’t think I can define it. But I tend to see it as living in alignment to your truth. You can define truth as your intuition, your gut feeling, your values, your principles, all those things. I feel like all those make up our truth, so to speak. So, for me, living authentically can go from having a conversation about how I feel about something instead of just swallowing it , all the way to knowing that I want to do something. For example, if I want to write more, not living authentically would be using all the 5 million excuses to not do it. But living authentically is to lean into that fear and say, ‘Yes, I’m afraid, but this is important to me.’. Doing this is actually the most authentic expression of myself. So, I will do it. Hence, to answer your question, the way that I’ve been doing it (be more authentic) is to embark on a 100-day creative project. And the goal for this project is to create one tiny, beautiful thing every day, which can look different day to day.
For me, because I can’t just focus on one thing, I’ve been doing so many different things. I’ve been having conversations with friends, and conversations are actually creative, right? For example, this conversation we’re having is actually creative because it’s generating new ideas. I’ve been through, you know, all the usual suspects, like writing, painting, you know, taking walks in nature, like all these different things. But the biggest hurdle I’ve had to overcome is actually to share it with the world. So, I’ve been expressing it more on social media. I have a sub-stack where I publish short blogs and things like that. And it sounds silly, because, like you mentioned at the beginning that I used to live so publicly, so it might be a shock to people. They might wonder if it is hard for me to post a blog because in the past I blog and people read it. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s different now. I almost had to relearn how to show myself from scratch, and that’s the journey I am now on. And it’s been amazing and it’s been so fulfilling. Obviously, it’s been hard, and so, so scary to express myself in different mediums and to try different things. I am really grateful to have committed to it.
Kai Xin 14:30
It’s interesting. You mentioned how people might comment on your current journey and go ‘what’s so hard about posting?’, but it’s all internal, right? We feel different. And it almost seems as though we need to fit into a kind of mould to say, what should you be doing to be considered as hard? And I don’t know whether you feel like there’s a tendency to downplay your own struggles?
Gwen 14:56
100%. This is also something I’m learning in this journey. It’s very funny actually, like sometimes Shawn sits down in front of me. He says, I think you don’t think you’re human. And I’m like, Yeah, I think you’re right. What I mean by that is the expectations that I have on myself, I’m only now learning are inhuman. I don’t see myself as human because my expectation are inhuman. And I think a lot of people can probably resonate with this because if you’re a perfectionist, your expectations of yourself are already inhuman. Because you know how we always say no human is perfect. So, the fact that you think you can be perfect is actually already an inhuman expectation. That has been something I’ve been really trying very hard to unlearn.
The reason why I struggled with that for so long is because when I was younger, I had to suppress a lot in order to show up as a ‘normal’ human being. I went through a lot, but I didn’t want to show the world that I was going through a lot. I don’t know why I had that mindset, and I think that carried with me into adulthood, to the point where now, I’m almost 30, yet I still need to unlearn all those things before I go any further into the future so that I know that, in reality, it’s okay to not be perfect all the time.
All those cliches are true, like “Done is better than perfect.”, “Getting things out there, is better than not getting it out at all.” This project has really just helped me to keep getting out there. This is just part of the process and it’s okay to go put yourself out there. It’s okay, if you feel it’s a failure. It’s just a part of the process, so just keep, keep going.
Cheryl 16:58
Thank you so much for sharing. And I think when you are able to embrace your imperfections and put it out there, it has ripple effect where people will say, she has so much courage, let me try something new too! I’m super curious, in your journey from being someone who’s super perfectionist and trying to then now be a little bit more comfortable with your imperfections, was there a turning point that you realised that being perfectionist is unsustainable?
Gwen 17:30
I feel like it was just a lot of little, little moments that built up over time. My colleague is actually on a sabbatical for her mental health, and that was actually a catalyst for me to look at myself and the way that we were doing things. For example, the way I lead, the way our team works. It was like a wake up call. And I guess if you had to attribute it to a particular moment, it would be that moment, right? Because this was a few days after my birthday, actually, that’s how I remember it very well. I’m like, “Wow, best birthday present ever. Haha. Sarcastic.” That was when Shawn decided to like dump it all on me and say like, “These are things that you know, you’re doing that weren’t so great, that actually like contributed to this.” In a lot of ways, it was that thing ( the feedback) that catalysed me to actually make a change. And like, that wake up call that things can’t continue the way that they are. And at the same time, it was also because of the environment that I could not be as controlling anymore because we were one man down, and things still needed to be done. And so I couldn’t be as perfectionist as we needed to get things done. So I think it was both of those things combined that really catalysed that that process too.
Cheryl 18:58
How I understand your journey from becoming a perfectionist to being a little bit more open is kind of forced you were forced into it. And then you are then forced to adapt to opening up your way of doing things.
Gwen 19:24
I love that, “opening up your way of doing things.” I feel like that’s all we ever need to do, right? Like we all have certain ways that we show up in the world that we do certain things. And all we need to do is learn how to open it up. And I feel like that also comes back in a very strange way to what we were originally talking about, which is like being with ourselves right? Because if you don’t feel safe in yourself, because safety is the necessity for that openness, right? If you don’t feel safe, you’re not going to open yourself up to anything. You’re not gonna open yourself to change. You’re not going to open yourself up to wake up calls or to anything. So I felt like, that safety that we need to develop in ourselves is so important as the precursor for everything else, because otherwise that growth is not sustainable.
Cheryl 20:09
Can you help me to understand what it means to feel safe within yourself?
Gwen 20:13
I’ve always felt like I wanted to jump out of my own skin. I don’t know how to describe it. Maybe it’s anxiety, maybe it’s depression, maybe it’s the mental health struggles that I grew up with. But I never felt settled in my own body. I never felt settled in my own mind. It was always racing a million miles a minute. I probably have undiagnosed ADHD, I don’t know. But I think through a combination of like, all the things we talked about, like meditation, spiritual practices, solitude is a huge thing, right? Just learning to be with yourself, take yourself out on dates, you know, eat by yourself, not with your phone, but like by yourself, and then just learning to just be in that state of solitude. And I will even say, of ‘connection’ to yourself and also to the world around you. I feel like that for me is that practice.
Kai Xin 21:07
I understand that you took a while, I think last year to recalibrate and find that internal alignment. does it connect to what you’ve just shared with us?
Gwen 21:18
I think yes, and no. I would say my spiritual journey really just started last year, but not really as well, like I did have coaching with a friend who’s also a practising spiritual coach. That was since 2019, but I would say it was only really like last year, that I paid for a self paced course with a yoga teacher that I really admire. And just doing that course, on my own time, also, in a way forced me to build that habit, or that sadhana, of having that daily practice with myself. But it’s not that I purposely took out a break or anything, it was an ongoing process that I integrated into my everyday. And I think that’s actually what’s needed to be sustainable, as opposed to, you know, going on some retreat or whatever, and then coming home, and then needing to figure out how to integrate it. It was really integrated from the start.
Kai Xin 22:09
And how has that spiritual practice, change the way you lead your team, show up to the world, especially with the perfectionist tendency? Have you seen any changes?
Gwen 22:20
Yeah, it’s so interesting, because my friend who’s a spiritual coach, she said to me, ‘I really hope that one day you would be able to bring these practices into your work.’. And I couldn’t brain that. But now, looking back, I feel like I have been. And I think it’s just simply because your spiritual practices or your personal practices affect who you are. And obviously, who you are affects your team.
For example, I have a racing mind. I’ve tried everything in the morning, I’ve tried journaling, I’ve tried walking, and so on. One thing that made the biggest difference for me was meditation. So, just 10 minutes of sitting with a guided meditation, it grounds me and it sets me up for the whole day. And because of that, I actually get to almost see, in real time, when I’m being extra controlling, it’s almost like I can see myself doing that. And I’m like, oh, okay, I understand what I’m doing wrong now, then I will stop, and be quicker to build that awareness. Because it’s the first thing I do every day, it actually creates that awareness already. So, it’s easier to tap back into that awareness when I’m at work. I guess that in and of itself has already created the cascading effect to improve everything else and for how the team shows up. Because in general, my team is very vocal, they would call me out if they notice things. Sometimes I don’t listen because I’m too into it. But this (awareness) allows me to step back quicker. I can actually notice, ‘ Oh, you’re right, I am doing that’, versus in the past, I would rebut and say ‘oh my god, I got do that meh?’. Yeah, now the cycles are faster.
Kai Xin 23:57
You are in the business to help people to be more empathetic. Would you say that meditation has helped you increase your empathy quotient? And now that you have the situational and self awareness, how has that changed the relationship between you and your loved ones or your colleagues?
Gwen 24:16
I feel like there’s a lot to unpack there. I’ll go with the first question, which is, does meditation or basic self awareness practices actually contribute to your empathy quotient? And I would say, yes, because the way we look at empathy, there’s different levels of empathy.
The first level is empathy to yourself, which is the basis of all empathy. You can practice the act of empathising with somebody else, but if you don’t actually have that self empathy, which I only just recently discovered for myself, you’re not actually empathising with the other person. It’s more of an intellectual exercise rather than a full embodied actual empathy.
Level two is also interpersonal. You know, when you’re in a conversation, let’s say like with your mom with your dad in that one on one space, then there’s also a level of empathy.
I would say the third level of empathy that we work with is almost a systemic level of empathy, which is a group dynamics level of empathy; how to empathise in a group.
So that was the work that Tribeless was doing for a very long time. We didn’t realise it, but through our stranger dinners, just naturally, by gathering a group of strangers, we were already creating group level dynamics at an almost systemic level. So in a way, we’ve been trying to like reverse engineer it back down all the way to how can one practice empathy towards oneself, and how can you practice empathy between two people? I’ve been developing that empathy to myself.
For example, perfectionism, when I’m not perfect, empathy to myself would be realising that I did my best, because at any given moment, I am doing my best. (Because) if somebody else had gone through self-doubt, how would I react? I would already naturally think of all the different reasons why they did not achieve what they wanted to achieve, and I would be understanding and compassionate to them about that. So, why can I apply that to myself?
So, I think meditation, and just through that process (of developing awareness) has enabled me to be more open to the idea opening up myself. And slowly, slowly, slowly, it has been seeping into my everyday life.
Cheryl 26:38
I’m just curious, in your own words, how would you define empathy, Gwen?
Gwen 26:44
I have the Tribeless definition. What is my own definition? I’ll just say the Tribeless one. We think of empathy as the ability to see parts of ourselves in everybody else. What that means is, all of us have emotions, dreams, fears, challenges, all those things. And those are the points of connection that we can use to build empathy, and also relationships with other people. If you see someone, they look so different from you on the outside, because we’re only focusing on our differences. Empathy is looking for those points of commonality. And it’s because of those universal points of commonality, that we can tap into our shared humanity. And it’s through that process, that we can start to develop our empathy muscles and our empathy quotient towards other people, and therefore the world. I know, it sounds easier said than done. And the way we do it, (plugging Tribeless) is through conversations, because there’s actually no other way to do it.
While there’s a lot of research out there that says that you can build empathy by reading books, watching movies, but we feel like it’s a very one-way approach. The former would suggest that if I watched a movie and cry when the character cries, that’s empathy. On another hand, we feel that if it’s in a form of conversation, you can build your empathy muscles by actively try to understand what they’re saying or when they show you something. If after you understand what they’re saying, you look for those points inside of yourself that you can resonate with, that’s what builds that connection.
So, for me, for us at Tribeless, that’s how empathy contributes to building relationships. Because it’s in those conversations, that instead of bringing your own ideas and mindsets into your conversation and shutting down what the other person is saying, you’re listening and understanding what they’re saying, make sure you understand it, then look for those points of connection and resonance in yourself to build that relationship.
Cheryl 28:50
I had an alternative view. So I think a lot of empathy comes from understanding and also seeing the commonalities that is on the assumption that people are on the fundamental level, similar to what extent, is that true? Are we really similar at the fundamental level?
Gwen 29:09
I get what you’re saying. To clarify, what I’m saying is not that we are similar as in, my dream is to have a family, and your dream is also to have a family, then we are similar. What I’m saying is, at the fundamental level, what are the emotions that would build a common ground. For example, every single human being on Earth experiences sadness, anger, pain, joy. We can build common ground on those instead of building common ground on opinions. For example, wanting the others to vote for the same person as you did. Those are the things that eventually can become divisive rather than to unite.
Here’s an example of how understanding through differences can look like: Shawn is in a very bad mood. The first thought is to try and understand why. Perhaps he went through X. I may not have gone through X, but if I know the underlying emotion of X is (let’s say rejection), then, I can relate that I’d also be in a terrible mood if I experienced that. I can start to empathise on that level. Of course, I won’t go up to him and say, ‘why did you feel rejected, I also feel rejected before.’. Instead, it’s responding in a way that takes their feelings into account. That’s why empathy is so nuanced, and it’s really hard to explain it fully. I know that, for example, when Shawn feels rejected, he would like to be left alone. That’s actually empathy towards him, because I know that he really appreciates his own time and space to process things. Whereas for me, I love it when someone sits down with me and talk to me, and make me feel better when they noticed that I’m feeling rejected. So it’s the total opposite of what he would want.
A lot of people think that empathy is to see the same emotion, then do what makes them feel better. But that’s not true. In a relational context, the true empathy is knowing the other person, understanding them, knowing their preferences, and how they like to be showed up for. Then, after they are done and feel more settled, to be open to them again if they need a space to talk on their own terms. We have so many different relationships in our life, we have so many different people who will respond in different ways. So, empathy is being able to be observant and understand the relationship and respond accordingly in that context.
Cheryl 31:51
The takeaway that I have is that, in a way, empathy is also very egoless. Because it’s not so much about what you want, what you think would be fantastic for the situation, but rather, tuning into the suffering that the person is experiencing, as you have had, and seeing how you can show up best for the person and make the situation a little bit better. I too think empathy is so nuanced. And I think your company has done an amazing job in creating a very structured way of teaching people how to develop and cultivate empathy. Do you want to walk us through the steps?
Gwen 32:29
We do have something called the empathy box. And it’s interesting that it emerged from those stranger dinners. So, it’s not that we have PhD in empathy that we developed this tool. What is that anyway? The empathy box came from, I think, hundreds or maybe even thousands of hours of conversations with people on the ground every every month. Through flying to Singapore, flying around the world, talking to people, we realise that the way that people respond fits into a few categories. For example, if you’re ever wondering, how can I verbally show empathy to somebody in that moment, these are the five steps or the five categories of responses that you can take.
First one, is to show some love.
I feel that this is a step that we tend to forget or neglect because we are embarassed to do it. We don’t know how to show love. When we say show some love, what we mean is to appreciate, to validate, and to find something in what people say to resonate with. So, if you cannot find anything at all, you can just say something as simple as ‘thank you for sharing, I really appreciate you opening up to me’, or, ‘I really appreciate you sharing that. I didn’t know that about you, that gives me a better understanding about you.’. These really simple sentences can help make the person feel safe.
Because topics on “suffering” or negative feelings makes one feel very vulnerable, and it can make one feel very scared to open up, especially in our Asian society. That’s why we tend to keep it inside right instead of sharing. So, if someone does share with you, it’s a huge act of courage. And so the first step is to show some love.
The next step is to help me understand.
To help me understand is essentially asking questions and leaning into curiosity. Instead of assuming that we know exactly what they’ve gone through, make sure you actually know what they’re saying. With your eyes, you’re seeing. For example, the way that they are behaving. Let’s say, if Shawn tells me that he feels fine, I can that I noticed that he looks a lot sadder than usual. So, you’re just calling out certain observations. Or in another example, in the case of my team, where we talked about me being over controlling, that’s an observation; they might call out that I’m trying to change things or control things that are actually not within my scope of influence. That’s how observations can be used.
Let’s use the the Shawn example again. If he says like, ‘oh, yeah, I’m not feeling too great.’. I should say, ‘oh, yeah, I knew it, something happened, right?’, because that’s not a question, that’s a leading statement. Curiosity is to ask them what happened and to invite them to share more about how they are feeling. Usually at this point, you can see, the curiosity is giving permission for that person to keep sharing if they wish to. But probably at that moment, you can also tell if they don’t wish to share anymore. Sometimes when we are asking too many questions, and if the other person doesn’t seem very responsive, they’re may not want to answer you. That’s also when we can stop and save the conversation for another day, and let them know that they can always come to you. But if they are willing to share more, that leads into the later categories, which are sharing an observation and offer an alternate perspective.
I’ll talk about observation first.
Observation, is observing the person you know and understand what’s going on.
In a way we call it listening with your ears as well as with your eyes.
Next, offer an alternate perspective.
This isn’t advice but it’s a different way of looking at it. It’s just like how you said Cheryl, “I had a similar experience, but in a different way.”, one can say, ‘I really resonate with what you’re saying. This is what I went through.’. Normally, after you’ve gone through all the other steps, that person is already in the space of listening and learning. So, when you do bring in your own perspective and experience, it’s not stealing the spotlight from them anymore. But it’s really just giving them extra ways to look at their situation, which for some people, is useful. If not, these are just categories to inspire, as it’s what you feel that person would really resonate with most.
Last but not least, is the wild card. The wild card really is, if your responses do not fit into the first four categories, then you can use the wild card.
So, these five response cards were really developed for groups, because I believe that in a group, when we’re having a conversation as a group, it’s a collaborative process. It doesn’t mean that one single person needs to use all four cards at once to respond to the person. It depends on what the storyteller in the situation is sharing.
So let’s say in this case, I’m sharing something and both of you also had those five cards. I’m pretty sure Cheryl and Kai Xin would respond with different kinds of responses.
For example, Kai Xin has been using a lot of questions. Perhaps that is your preferred way of empathising, leaning into your to your curiosity and asking more. For Cheryl, you seem to be really good at sharing observations. You would sum up what I’ve said, and then offer an alternate perspective, or you would rephrase what I said for me to look at what I’ve shared in a different way. I appreciate both very much. So, it really depends on what your personal style is, and of course also realising what the other person likes to receive.
For example, I like to receive love and perspective. I love getting perspectives, because that’s how I process. I like to look at things in a different way. It’s very interesting to know what you like and what other people like. Especially in a group setting, everyone gets the chance to try it out and to see what their preferred style is, because it will become very obvious when you tend to reach for that particular card more than the rest. From that, you would realise what your style is, and that process is a visual way of learning and practising empathy.
Cheryl 39:09
The five steps that you walked us through, is really like a muscle where the more you do it, the more familiar you are with your tendencies. It also allows you to learn how to flow through the conversation in a very natural way, rather than being systematic going from first step, second step, third step, etc.
Gwen 39:27
Yeah, exactly.
Cheryl 39:28
So, you have covered the do’s of empathy. But what about the ‘don’ts’ of empathy?
Gwen 39:32
That’s a good question. I feel like these are maybe very obvious, but maybe not so obvious as well. Obviously, don’t interrupt what I say. I tend to interrupt a lot, as I get too excited. That ties into the second thing, which is don’t assume. A lot of times, especially if we know that person very well, someone we’re very close to like our family, we tend to naturally assume what they are going through based on things that have happened before. For example, let’s say that person has ongoing mental health challenges. If that friend comes to you and tells you that s/he had a bad day, our brain may very naturally jump and assume that it must be their mental health acting up again. So, don’t assume, and don’t advise.
This might be a good time to bring it up another point: Empathy is not only about suffering. A lot of times, we may think that to empathise is to take somebody out of their suffering. Yes, it might be true that if you have empathised successfully with someone, it can lessen their emotional burden a bit. So, in a way it can seem like we are lessening their suffering. But in reality, empathy is to journey with someone through whatever they’re going through. It may not be suffering, it may actually be joy. Have you ever tried empathising with somebody’s joy, when someone is celebrating something, and you have also felt that joy of success, and you say to them, ‘ oh, my gosh, such a great job, I’m so proud of you.’? That’s actually empathy as well. So, we can actually use empathy on both sides of the spectrum.
Those are the three main things that I could think of right now: (a) don’t interrupt, (b) don’t assume, (c) and don’t try to save them, or fix them.
We do that because we feel uncomfortable with their feelings of sadness. And that actually comes back to what we said earlier in this conversation about that self-awareness and that self-empathy. A lot of times why people don’t like empathy as a concept is because they see everyday people burn out from their empathy. We hear about this a lot: mental health professionals burnout, nurses burnout from the empathy because they’re giving too much of their compassion and their empathy. But the thing is, true empathy comes from a place of non ego, meaning, you’re actually not giving off yourself, you’re simply creating that space to understand what the other person is going through. And if you notice, in that moment, that you are not in a good space to hold that space for the friend, then that’s your chance to hold empathy to yourself and to say, “Hey, I’m really sorry, but I’m actually not in a space to listen right now. Could we talk about this later today? Could we talk about this tomorrow?”
Sharing that compassionately is creating that understanding of the empathy for yourself, but also your empathy for that person. Because even if you try to listen to them at that moment, you’re not actually present. And that’s also not true empathy. If we’re not honest with ourselves and with that person, it might end up being detrimental to the relationship in the long run, and causing resentment to build up.
So, I really believe that empathy is not just about suffering, it’s also about joy. But it’s also about knowing your own boundaries. And being able to communicate that in a compassionate way.
Kai Xin 43:15
I picked out a few things. First, the tendency of wanting to fix other person could be a reflection of how we want to be perfect. Just being able to sit with our discomfort of seeing other people suffer or being with our own suffering, I think that’s so powerful. It takes a lot of courage to say, ‘I don’t have to do anything, I just can watch it, observe and let it pass.’. And that’s holding space.
The second thing I picked up is that in order to connect with others, we first need to be able to connect with ourselves, to know how am I feeling right now. Do I have the capacity, and understanding where the giving is coming from? Is it from a place of ego? Am I trying to trying to give so that I feel empowered, like to feel like I’m more helpful? Because I noticed this sometimes in me as well, I feel good helping people. But it doesn’t come from a place of selflessness. And that’s where the compassion fatigue kicks in. It would be very different, if it’s just me being here and that I don’t have to hold any expectations of what I should do or what the outcome of the conversation should be. I’m just here. The feeling is very different.
Gwen 44:35
100%. That is so true. And the irony is that the people who tend to want to empathise more, who tend to be there more for their friends are those who might be falling into that trap without them realising. I say this because that was the role I played for my friends the whole time growing up, and that’s how I completely burned out in terms of empathy. Because I will always be the one to listen, and to hold space for them, I didn’t have that capacity to also share and to be vulnerable myself.
So, empathy is a two way street. It’s not only about giving empathy to others everyday, but also realising that in that relationship, we need to be able to be vulnerable as well, and to share and to lean on that person, which is so hard for people like you and me, because we are so used to being the one helping to being the strong one. It’s so hard to be the one to tell someone that you need their shoulder to cry on, and ask if they are okay with that.
Kai Xin 45:40
Speaking of that, because I think we have similarities in a sense, where maybe some people would see us as quite independent. I’m just wondering what it means for you to take a step back, and to be a little bit more vulnerable.
Gwen 45:58
I think to be vulnerable, is to be honest, without necessarily knowing how your honest feedback will be received.
Kai Xin 46:10
Can you elaborate more on that?
Gwen 46:13
This is definitely personal to me, I don’t think this is the official definition – but I feel like vulnerability to me comes back to what we talked about this a lot in this episode: The self-expression and the embodiedness of being. I felt like for me, as I’m on this process, I think I always know what I want, it’s always in the back of my head. But whether or not I actually have the courage to share that either out loud, or on social media, or to the person that I need to talk about that, the act of choosing to do that without necessarily knowing how it would be received from that person (is a form of vulnerability). For example, let’s say for social media, sometimes when you want to share something that’s true to you, but you’re not very sure how people will receive it or how they react to it. Or let’s say you want to give a feedback to a friend or to a loved one, and you’re not sure how they are going to receive that feedback. So, that’s kind of what I mean by not being sure how it would be received, but choosing to do that anyway. Choosing to lean into that courage, and to still take that step, to me, that’s vulnerability.
Kai Xin 47:31
It seems like a very internal perception rather than external because I personally observe and notice the typical definition of vulnerability is based on what you manifest externally. For example, crying is a form of vulnerability. Being vulnerable means you don’t have to always put up a strong front. It’s okay to cry on people’s shoulders, it’s okay to feel a little bit sad. It’s okay to express that you actually do not know what you’re doing in life, you don’t have everything figured out. And it’s very expressive. At least that’s what I thought. And it’s quite interesting that you brought about another angle: it’s more about how you internalise it, how you hold that truth, without us needing to compromise it (our truth) just because of our fear of judgement.
Gwen 48:24
That’s so good. Because I feel like that’s actually what I meant when I said, my vulnerability was performative earlier in this episode. I felt like sometimes, when I did all that, I thought I was being vulnerable. And yes, I was being vulnerable to maybe like you said, society standards, or to the external standards. But after going through this process for so many years, I realised now that it’s actually more of an inside job, right, rather than an external show of it. Because some people might not find that vulnerable at all. I can speak for myself. I find it harder to reach out to a friend or to somebody that I don’t know and speak to them one on one as compared to speaking on stage, or to speak on this podcast about my struggles. For some people, they cannot comprehend that at all. But the thing about vulnerability is that just like human beings, every single one of us have different fears, a different (types of) vulnerability, a different whatever, right? So that’s why we can’t just say if you’re doing X, it means that you’re being vulnerable. It’s more of that feeling that you get from taking risks, taking chances, and putting a piece of yourself out there, in whatever way.
For example, it could be me reaching out to a friend, or putting a piece of myself out there. Similar to how somebody’s speaking on a podcast and feeling afraid about doing that as they are putting a piece of themselves out there. All of us have different vulnerabilities, but it’s about that process, and you recognising what that means for yourself. It is about saying to yourself that “I am being vulnerable right now. And, I should step back to evaluate if I am okay with that. Is this something I actually want to do, Or am I doing it because x reason? Am I doing it because nowadays society says that everyone must be vulnerable.”
Cheryl 50:15
You know, it has been really interesting and really insightful to discuss and dissect some of the things that we thought we already knew: empathy, vulnerability. It’s interesting to gain new understanding. Moving forward, what’s next for you in life and at work?
Gwen 50:37
I’m just taking one day at a time girl. I think what’s next is definitely finishing that 100 Day project. Keep your fingers crossed, for me. I’m also doing my best to expand the team at tribeless role in a more ’embodied’ sense. And I guess, to keep leaning further and further into my purpose, every single day.
Cheryl 51:00
In conjunction with world mental health day, any advice that you would have to give to our listeners in terms of how they can show up to be better people to themselves and to others. So just one practical thing that they can do?
Gwen 51:17
I’m always all about that practical life. The thing that comes to mind now is to take yourself on a solo date, I feel like it’s something that might be romanticised these days, and good that it is, because that actually make things more palatable, and socially acceptable. Don’t overthink it, it can be anything that brings you joy, it can be a day in nature, it can be a day at a cafe, it can even be a day at a theme park. But it has to be alone, and it has to be something where if you can, you can hear your own thoughts. Because I felt like for me, that was when I started to taste the flavour of my own companionship by going places alone: driving there alone, or taking public transport alone, and making an adventure out of it.
It could even be that the journey is the destination kind of thing. For example, walking without any plan. You don’t have to reach somewhere, it could also be just a walk. And at the end of your solo date, record some sort of reflection. It could be a journal, scrapbooking, photos, or a video if you’d like to talk, but to capture what that feels like- capture what it feels like to have a friend that is you.
You know, let’s say we hang out with our friends, we take pictures, right? And then we would post on social media and mention that hanging out was very nice because ABCDE. We could do that because we know what our friends’ company feel like. But if you are not used to your own company, you actually don’t know what your company feels like. So yeah, the practical step would be to just take yourself on a slow day and reflect on it. If you enjoy it, plan another one, and another one and another one. The possibilities are endless. You don’t have to occupy all your free time with other people. I feel like the most important relationship we can have is the relationship with ourselves. And this is one of the fun and easy ways to do it.
Kai Xin 52:47
Thanks for sharing. I think that’s a good closing. Could you share with the listeners if they want to find more about what you do your work? Where can they go?
Gwen 53:38
So you can go to www.empathybox.co to learn more about the empathy box. That’s where we also have our blog that we’re trying to grow with a lot more articles on how you can practice empathy and self compassion and all those things in your life. And if you are looking for connection activities and different ways of like team building and virtual workshops, then you can go to tribeless.co, and that’s where you can learn more about the things that we do at Tribeless as a company.
Kai Xin 54:20
I believe everything is done virtually now. So, whether you’re dialling in from Singapore or Malaysia or any parts of the world, you can check out some of the events. Thanks once again, Gwen. It’s good having you.
Gwen 54:32
Thank you so much, Kai Xin and Cheryl. Really enjoyed this conversation.
Kai Xin 54:36
Thanks, listeners for tuning in. I hope you got as much value as with it. What is your biggest takeaway? Do share with us on our telegram chat. And if you’ve benefited from this podcast, remember to give us a five star review. If you have benefited from this episode, do share this and tag a friend. This episode is such a great reminder to connect within in order to be able to connect with others. Through the process, we learned to be at ease with our own thoughts be observant and curious about our habitual tendencies, and to learn and appreciate every aspect of ourselves.
One of the best ways to get in touch with our own thoughts and emotion is meditation. In conjunction with the month of Vesak and the Mental Health Awareness Month, we started a 30 days meditation challenge. The challenge is to form a daily practice for a month. You’d receive daily prompts and suggested guided meditation tracks.
And in our next episode, we will be chatting on the topic of romantic relationship and a popular question, “Is it okay for a Buddhist to have pre marital sex?” Definitely a juicy topics so stay tuned.
Meanwhile, stay happy and wise!
Special thanks for Siau Yen Chan, and Alvin Chan, for sponsoring this episode.
