Wholesome Wednesdays (WW): Bringing you curated positive content on Wednesdays to uplift your hump day.
Trying to meditate and struggling to make it consistent? We know meditation is important but we often miss a few days or two and then…. it becomes a month without meditation. We explore two ways to go beyond ‘loving the idea’ of meditation and doing it consistently.
1. Tips for Lazy Meditators
2. A challenge to make your meditation habit stick
Tips for Lazy Meditators
Cr: Unsplash
What’s going on here & Why we like it
Ajahn Brahm, a Buddhist monk from Australia, shares on spirituality and our occasional obsession with dogma. The notion that we take on labels (e.g. I am a Buddhist from Singapore/Malaysia who follows xxx teacher) prevents us from being expansive in our hearts.
Ajahn Brahm then also shares a unique moment where a reporter scolded Dalai Lama on receiving a skirt from a poor lady. A pretty fascinating response from Dalai Lama that embodies the spirit of Christmas. We have time-stamped the story in the video below.
“You build a circle that grows, grows, and grows. And all those things you have fear of in the past. It vanishes.”
Wise Steps
What views are you holding on to that prevent you from embracing the differences in others?
Heavy Commitments are hard to stick with. Cr: Unsplash
What’s going on here & why we like it
The team at HOL has crafted a HOL 30-day challenge which you can check out and try to kickstart the year with consistency. Do give it a shot with short meditation videos you can follow daily!
“What you are is what you have been. What youβll be is what you do now.”
Wise Steps
When was the latest time you tried something new for 30 days? The sign you have been waiting for is here π
Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng has over 15 years of experience in practising and teaching Mindfulness and is a certified trainer under the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute, teaching scientific-based mindfulness and emotional intelligence curriculum developed and tested at Google.
Welcome to another episode of Handful Of Leaves. Today we are very privileged to have Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng. Fun fact, this is our third time recording the episode because of so many technical issues. And I think the very fact that Dr. Yeoh you are here with us, again, is testimony that you’re very, very mindful as well as stable and equanimous. I think this is because of your meditation practice, I suppose. Lots of love from you today. And for our guests who do not know you, even though you’re very prominent meditation teacher, could you start by sharing with us? How do you get to where you are today? Why do you stop practising mindfulness?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (00:41)
Thank you, Kai Xin and hello, everyone. So actually let’s bring us back about more than 20 years ago, when I was a university student, at the age of 20 years old, I suffered from mild depression and insomnia. So I was eagerly looking for a way how to cure my monkey mind. I was introduced to Buddha’s mindfulness meditation, you can call it a Satipattana meditation. During university, I know meditation from Brother Lim Bon Cheng – he recently just got elected as member of Parliament in Australia. So, he brought me or introduced me to Buddhism, and Vipassana meditation, and this is how I get started. And then I started to attend many different retreats in Malaysia, in Burma and Thailand, and learn from different Buddhist traditions.
And then, in year 2008, I went to Oxford, to study for my PhD in organic chemistry. And because I’m a scientist, okay, I’m now a university lecturer in Penang. So I study chemistry, and I teach chemistry. And it’s always my intention to introduce mindfulness or meditation in a more approachable way, by using a layman term, and perhaps to connect it with science.
So when I was in UK, in Oxford, at that time, there was a very famous Oxford Mindfulness Centre, so I was able to attend an 8-week mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (MBCT) cause and that was my first encounter with contemporary mindfulness, or sometimes we call it secular mindfulness. And I Β admire the way that they teach mindfulness without using very complicated Buddhism. And also the course is very structured and combined different meditation techniques. You can see the formula from the Mahasi method, from the Goenka method like body scan, and they also have some mindful stretching, and yoga activities in the 8-week course. And they also bring in some modern psychology concepts, the MBCT, cause the main purpose is actually to prevent recurrent depression. There are many books that have been published on this topic. And then when I returned to Malaysia, “I thought, Oh, this is quite good. Especially this is well suitable for the Malaysian context. And I think it’s the same for Singapore as well.” Because we have multi-racial and multi religious, people around. So I thought, oh, in this way, if we can bring mindfulness to the university, to the hospitals, and to the kids, that will be very nice, without, you know, having the Buddhism label.
I started to conduct mindfulness courses in my university, for the university lecturers and staff and some students as well. And this is how I started. And then slowly, eventually, I started to offer a mindfulness course, a secular mindfulness course but I do not call it MBCT because I’m not an MBCT-certified teacher. That time I call it EQ, mindfulness, and how to use mindfulness to develop emotional intelligence. Actually, I got this idea from Meng, a Singaporean, as someone passed me his book Search Inside Yourself. And that is how it’s about how to develop emotional intelligence using mindfulness, I thought that will be fantastic. Because this is emotional intelligence is something that is very much needed by everyone. Almost everyone. So I thought that there will be very, very brilliant ideas to bring this to the public. And of course, there are some requests as well, when people know about them, I’m running my class in the US, and some reporters did some interviews with me. So it gets some attention from the public. Therefore, I started to offer mindfulness courses to the public, in English and also in Mandarin.
Eventually, I also set up a Malaysia Mindfulness Association. I’m the founder, and also the chairman with the intention to bring mindfulness or to create the awareness, you know, of mindfulness to the public. Of course, this is what I mentioned is about secular mindfulness, without using any Buddhist terminologies. So this is how I started and I have been doing this. And also now, one last thing, I eventually received a scholarship from Meng, to be trained as a certified teacher to teach the Search Inside Yourself or SIY programme, so I also have been teaching this for a number of years in Malaysia, and China’s Hong Kong and different countries.
Kai Xin (06:34)
Wow, that’s fantastic. When you say, keep it secular, it reminds me of this particular saying, by I believe, Goenka, “the breath knows no religion.” So regardless of whether you’re Christian, Muslim or Buddhist whatsoever, you have this breath, you can be mindful. And that’s something we’re going to dive deeper into. Because mindfulness as a word has been quite popular these days. I think people use it as a practice for various reasons. I’m particularly curious about your own experience, what got you saying that this is something that you want to dive deeper into? And this is something beneficial to me? Is there a trigger point in your life?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (07:17)
Yeah, definitely. Because the retreat experience that I got, you know, really helped me a lot, as I mentioned earlier, so I got into mindfulness because I suffered from some emotional issues. You know, like, I didn’t know how to work with my emotions, for example, sometimes it’s weariness, sadness, and stress, and so on and I couldn’t sleep. So, mindfulness meditation offered me a way how to work with this emotion. So, from then on, of course, my retreat experience was very long, it was not easy at all at the beginning.
But somehow after my second retreat, I start to get a deeper understanding and have what we call practical experience, on how we can bring our mind back to the present moment, and how to calm the mind. And through understanding the nature of the mind, with no doubt, you know, I am very confident that it can help a lot of people because it has helped me a lot. The mind was very messy, worrying about the future or thinking about the past, you know. After I learned about mindfulness and became more mindful, which means in simple terms, I was able to stay in the present moment, and my mind became quite peaceful. And then when, for example, anger and weariness arise, I was able to notice it, you know, and then just observe it without following the thoughts or emotions. So, this is something that when you have got the experience, it gives you a lot of confidence.
I would say that secular mindfulness is a very good introduction to bring you to the door or maybe to have a taste of mindfulness and then from then on, you know after you have gained the technique, then we will want to go deeper and you are a Buddhist then, of course, we are most welcome to do so. But at the same time, when we are able to offer secular mindfulness, it opened doors for more people. In fact, I read a report, I think a number of years ago, in more than 20% of the population in America, actually practice meditation or mindfulness in some way, but I’m not sure how true this is. In the history of humanity, this is something that never happened before. Because in the old time, of course, we have, we do have a lot of meditators, but I think, at this time that our time is in, more people start to be aware of mindfulness and meditation. And this is something that can help them, you know, in various ways.
Kai Xin (10:58)
Definitely, I also agree, I didn’t know that meditation can be taught. So, when my friend first asked me for my very first retreat, it was a weekend retreat. My first thought is, I thought, is it so difficult to just breathe? Don’t you just close your eyes, right? Then when I started my very first retreat, it was in the Buddhist context. And wow, it was really like my eyes opened, the doors also opened, and then I went closer to the Dhamma. Of course, we are not saying that meditation or getting people to learn mindfulness is a way to convert, because it is, in a very secular sense, a good way to manage our emotions, as you mentioned. However, also, I think, sometimes we run into the danger of saying that Buddhist mindfulness is also like secular mindfulness, because clearly there is a distinction and I believe not a lot of people know about that. So can you shed some light on this? Because you have gone through both, the secular and the Buddhist context. What’s the difference between mindfulness in both?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (11:53)
There are actually similarities and also differences. Okay. So, in so-called Modern mindfulness, the definition I normally use is this: Mindfulness is about how to pay attention to your body, mind and also sometimes including the environment, with an attitude of curiosity and kindness. The attitude is about how you pay attention to your physical and emotional experience.Β Why do we include the environment sometimes, for example, a lot of times I was also not very mindful when I went to the shopping mall and park my car, every time I took pictures so that I can remember where I parked my car.
Kai Xin (12:52)
That’s very smart! Because I always forget.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (12:57)
So you see, mindfulness in a way in the Buddhist terminology is called Sati. Sati actually means not forgetful or remembrance. So for example, after you parked your car, you were so excited to go to the shopping mall, and you totally forgot where you parked your car, that is what we call absent-minded. Again, absent-mindedness, so, your mind is not fully present. Because your mind isn’t fully present, or you are not very mindful, you couldn’t remember where you parked your car.
So, we need this (mindfulness), in this way, when we define mindfulness this way as the ability to remember and sometimes we use the term present moment and mindfulness, these two are not the same, but they are interrelated because your mind is not present.
For example, when you step down from the train and then get up on the train, we say, be mindful of the step, which means you need to be careful. It also has the meanings of carefulness and also mindfulness. So this is how we use the term mindfulness actually. Sometimes we cannot call it Buddhist mindfulness because mindfulness does not belong to Buddhists.
If you read the sutta, you will know that even the Buddha agrees that mindfulness is a very important ability. For example, if you need to become a very successful person, like a businessman or the king, mindfulness is a very important cultivation and you need to have it. I can remember the Buddha mentioned how to become a successful person, and one of the qualities is mindfulness. Because we need mindfulness for almost everything. Now parking the car, if you do not have mindfulness and you become absent-minded again, then you have to spend enough time you know, looking for your car. So, that is the meaning of mindfulness.
Let me remind, and repeat again, it’s not forgetfulness, and then sometimes we call it, or some teachers also say it’s present moment mindfulness, present moment awareness. How these two are connected, let me give you another example, similar to the parking example.
When you get home, you simply just put your handphone or mobile phone somewhere, okay, because at that time you are not fully present. So, you couldn’t remember where you have put your handphone. So if you remember, for example, now I have my mobile with me here, when I put my handphone down, I was fully present. Okay, that is called present moment awareness, I’m clearly aware of where I put my handphone. So, after that, I can easily recall and remember where I put my handphone. So the first thing is present moment awareness, for you to be able to recall where you have put your handphone and that ability to recall is what Sati means. Okay, because in the Buddhist context, Sati actually doesn’t mean present-moment awareness.
One of my teachers defined mindfulness in four ways:
The first is to remember. So for us to be able to remember, we need present-moment mindfulness. If you’re absent-minded, you are not able to remember, so remembering is like happening at the present moment. But when we’re talking about the present moment, the present moment has passed, because time is like this way. So the first R, is to remember.
The second is to remind. In the practice of mindfulness, we always have a meditation object, like the breath, like the whole body awareness. So at first when we started to meditate, okay, we’re bringing our attention to the breath, or to our body, okay, after that our mind starts to wander. So, we have to remind ourselves to come back to the present moment to remember your object, which is your breath or your whole body awareness. And then a lot of time, we become forgetful in daily life. Although we know we want to live a mindful life, we want to be mindful on the possible everything that we do, brushing, drinking tea, or walking or whatever daily activity you do, that needs a lot of reminder, which means we need to keep on reminding ourselves to bring our attention back to our body back to observe the mind. So, the second R of mindfulness is to remind.
The third R is to recollect. Recollection is something that we use to refer or something in the past, which is true when we have mindfulness. We will be able to recollect for example, to recollect “Where did you park your car?” That is a recollection.
And the last R is to retrospect. Retro means to look back,-spect means to inspect. Why do we call it as retrospect? Retrospect as I mentioned, when we observe the thoughts, thoughts have already arisen. Now, we are aware there is something in the past so we actually look back, but this is the immediate past. Of course, this has gone into very technical, but mindfulness does have this four meanings very closely interrelated meaning. I repeat the 4 Rs, remember, remind, recollect and retrospect. These are the four so this gives the meanings of Mindfulness.
These 4Rs have nothing to do with Buddhism. This has nothing to do with any religion because this is the ability that you can say that we need this mindfulness for our daily activities that we do, you know, we need this.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (20:27)
But what makes Buddhist mindfulness different from secular mindfulness is what we call the Right Mindfulness. In Pali term, we call it Samma Sati. Okay, so there is a right in front there. Of course, in the Buddhist texts, there is also Wrong Mindfulness. This is called Miccha Sati. So we may dive more into that, what is the difference between mindfulness and right mindfulness, and what qualifies us to call it Right Mindfulness?
We cannot just talk about Right Mindfulness alone, because Right Mindfulness has to be supported by the other seven Noble Path factors. Note: The noble path consists of eight elements, not eight different paths.
So, we have
Right View,
Right Thought (sometimes we call the Right Intention)
Right Speech,
Right Action,
Right Livelihood,
Right Effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration, okay? These are the eight elements of the Noble Eightfold Path, therefore we call it Eightfold. Eight(fold) path is one path, not eight paths. So the path consists of eightfold. Okay?
So when we’re talking about right mindfulness, right mindfulness is Buddhist mindfulness, okay. So, the Right Mindfulness needs to have the base of Right View. So, what is Right View? Right View is to understand the Four Noble Truths okay. This will become a Buddhist Crash Course *jokes*.
In short,
what is suffering,
what causes suffering,
the end of the suffering, there is a possibility to end the suffering,
and the path that leads to the end of suffering, which is the Noble Eightfold Path.
So, Right View means we see things in a simple way based on these three characteristics.
The first one is Dukkha – suffering or unsatisfactoriness. Dukkha doesn’t deny happiness. It just tells us that even happiness itself is impermanent. Again, we cannot have full control over what is happening because whatever things are happening are all based on causes and conditions. So, that is what we call the Right Understanding. So, for example, if we like to distinguish between so-called Modern mindfulness and Buddhist mindfulness, to enable you to practice Buddhist mindfulness, you need to have very deep or very good knowledge, not only theoretically. The theory is the starting point, but when you have that very deep knowledge or Right Understanding, you truly understand (what the Buddha calls direct understanding).
(The second) is about how you look at things as impermanent: everything has an impermanent nature (Anicca).
(The third): everything has a non-self nature, we call it Anatta. What is not self or non-self? Self or Atta in Buddhism means you have full control, Anatta means you do not have full control. Why do you not have complete control? Because things, the body and mind experience arise due to causes and conditions. I’ll give you a very simple example. We know that we grow older day by day. So, the Buddha said that illness is sickness, old age is sickness, and death is sickness. Even birth is sickness. We can’t help but face impermanence. So, when you get old and when you get sick, you get very frustrated and you cannot accept the so-called reality of getting sick. That is what we call without Right Understanding. When we have Right Understanding, we are already mentally prepared for it, we already know the body will get old, the body will get ill, the body will die.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (25:44)
So, mindfulness means to remember. We define mindfulness as to remember, to remind yourself this is the reality of life. So, when we are faced with this, we recall or remind. So, we need mindfulness to strengthen our right understanding. After we have this Right Understanding, then only possible we have Right Thoughts, which is the second noble path factor or sometimes we call it right intention so that you do not reject, you do not fight with what is happening. Just now I mentioned the four physical aspects of the dukkha and then we have another aspect, which is the mental aspect. Not getting what you want, then facing something that you don’t want.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (26:39)
Departed from your loved one. So, you bet we can remember we learn all this from the Dharma class, but how does this understanding, get rooted in our mind with this learning, we can even recite, we can memorise very well.
Kai Xin (27:02)
But whether we internalise it is a different story.
The first is sutamayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, we’re reading from books or we listen to the teachings of great teachers.
The second, cintΔmayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, by reflection.
The last, bhΔvanΔmayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, is by meditation, so we internalise it.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (27:31)
When we practice Buddhist meditation or Buddhist mindfulness meditation, one of the ways is to remind and remember when we are facing pain or thoughts, we are not chasing it away. We develop this understanding that thoughts arise because of cause and condition. So that once we have understood it, we bring in Right Understanding, Right View (Samma Ditthi).Β When we have Right Understanding then Right Thoughts (arise) as a result.
Right Thought means Ahimsa (non-violence), okay, which mean in simple term the thoughts of loving kindness, the thoughts of acceptance, we do not reject, we are not afraid, we do not create enmity with what is happening, which means in simple terms, we do not reject. So, which means we need kindness and curiosity, we need acceptance, and we need non-judgmental awareness.
Although in secular mindfulness, we do not explicitly use the term Right Thoughts, in fact, what we are trying to develop is the quality of Right Thought because, in a secular context, we cannot bring in the Buddhist concept of right mindfulness like Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
So, if you are a Buddhist practitioner and at the same time you are a mindfulness teacher, of course, they are very skilful means, we can introduce this concept in a non-Buddhist way. So, I always tell my students, so, when they observe emotion, they just know that emotions are temporary phenomena, emotions are changing, and they are not permanent. And then you cannot control emotion, because emotion arises due to cause and condition. So, you know, even though they are non-Buddhist, you know, they can understand this basic concept.
Kai Xin (29:38)
Sometimes when we package things in a religious context, people are less receptive, even though it’s beneficial to them, I think, without getting into too many technicalities of the Noble Eightfold Path, because I’m pretty sure that’s another lecture altogether. Please attend Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng’s, Dhamma talks as well as our lesson if you want a full course, but if I were to understand to simplify, I think the importance of understanding the difference between secular and Buddhist mindfulness is really the motivation and the intention, you brought up Noble Eightfold Path, right, that is the path to enlightenment, which is freedom from suffering. And I suppose not everyone wants to meditate to gain enlightenment, but they want to meditate to be free from some kind of affliction, to be more peaceful, to have less anger, and to be able to concentrate. So I guess that’s where packaging it in a more secular form would make it more palatable.
For listeners who are interested to go beyond that, to say, “Okay, now I’m, I have the right concentration already. I have Right Mindfulness, I can do the four Rs, then what is next?” Of course, we always say what’s next. We want to become – that’s also part of the learning, right? How do we have the Right Intention to renounce, let go of becoming or non-becoming which is a separate lecture altogether.
So am I right to say if we were to put it in brief, Buddhist mindfulness even though we call it as right mindfulness, doesn’t mean that secular mindfulness is wrong, but it’s really because it stems from like you say, the foundation of morality. So can we have our virtue because it will affect our meditation, right? Whether our mind is calm, or we do bad things, then you will, you know, keep repeating in our head. Then also with the right mindfulness, it would help to allow us to see things clearer with wisdom. So it fits, which is a very beautiful cycle. I think Buddha was a genius. And in this context, it’s really about practising Right Mindfulness to be completely free from suffering. Is there a right way to understand?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (31:46)
Yes, yes, it’s true as you say, what is the major difference between Buddhist mindfulness and secular mindfulness? One of these is motivation. Of course, the highest aim for Buddhists is the final liberation or Nibbana, but as you said, the highest aim doesn’t mean that you know, the lower aim, which is like stress reduction to be happier is wrong. Because the Buddhist, the Buddha, in fact, in the Sutta also mentioned one of the fruits or benefits of mindfulness and clear comprehension, Sati and Sampajanna is the present life happiness.
We actually do not need to go beyond the present life if we do not believe in rebirth. For example, you can feel the benefit itself right here and right now, which is the reduction, of suffering, okay? So it may not lead to the end of the suffering, but it’s a temporary end of suffering. So, in this in this way, even in secular mindfulness, we have this motivation and intention, to want to be happier, to want to be calm, and then want to be more peaceful. So there is nothing wrong with the way. As you have pointed out, although we say there is a right mindfulness and Wrong Mindfulness, which is Miccha Sati, it doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong, is just that this is not the right mindfulness, not the right mindfulness that will lead you to the final aim. When we practice secular mindfulness for stress reduction, preventing recurrent depression, or developing emotional intelligence or enable leadership, this is not wrong.
Kai Xin (33:48)
I hear this analogy before it will be wrong if you practice mindfulness and you use it to do something unwholesome because even burglars are very mindful, right? Like, well, they have to walk very slowly, they have to pay attention, remember, okay, which passcode, where to enter the door, etc. But precisely when we say right mindfulness, it stems from ethics and morality. So I suppose it’s okay if it’s wholesome because it’s stress reduction. Pretty wholesome.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (34:15)
Yes, yes, you are, right. Yeah, definitely. If we are doing some unwholesome thing with mindfulness, that is definitely called Wrong Mindfulness. But even when we just do it to become happier, you know, to develop our skill, then that is wholesome mindfulness. It required of course mindfulness to relax because it is related to some wholesome quality of the mind. Okay, so that is the difference to your point.
Kai Xin (34:49)
It’s interesting. So I’m wondering, some people tell me that, hey, you know, cooking is meditation for me, or eating, singing and swimming. So they have all these different activities which they define as meditative. So, can you actually practice mindfulness without formally meditating?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (35:08)
Yes, definitely whether in the Buddhist way or in a secular way, we always encourage people, especially mindfulness practitioners to bring in or to integrate mindfulness into their daily life, as you say, when you are cooking, when you are walking, when you are eating. So, you bring the present moment awareness. Some peace also includes some mental focus, which will become more focused, focus in a way is that one point in this focus, okay, but you are fully aware of what is happening, while we are cooking, you are fully present, you know, you’re aware that your whole body is standing, your whole body is sitting. So there is in the Satipattana Sutta. Yeah, you can say in a flow, is more to Dynamic Meditation or dynamic concentration, which means your mind is fully focused. But that actually doesn’t mean mindfulness. It is a result of mindfulness. There is a difference between mindfulness and mental focus, okay, mental focus is the result of mindfulness.
Kai Xin (36:27)
So there needs to be some form of effort, like I will deliberately be mindful and aware of my cooking, rather than Oh, you know, I’m just so absorbed in the cooking itself.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (36:37)
Right. Deliberate awareness. So for it to be called mindfulness, most of the time, we need this deliberate attention. Okay? So mindfulness needs to be cultivated and developed, it is not something you are born with that. well, we are born not mindful, because we always forget and are distracted.
Kai Xin (36:57)
Yeah, people’s attention span nowadays is very, very short. Also. And I’m wondering, then, if you say, all this can be meditative, right, and we can cultivate, you know, in daily life. Is there a benefit to just sit (in formal meditation, close your eyes) on a cushion?
Yeoh Kar Kheng ( 37:15)
Of course, before you can actually integrate your mindfulness very effectively, in your daily life, I will say the form of practice is the foundation because in formal practice, when we do sitting meditation, or standing meditation, or walking meditation, we are in a protected environment, which is more conducive and you are sitting still, okay? So you will be able to be more mindful, you know, your mindfulness has shorter gaps, okay, so after we have developed this, and then after we open our eyes, and then continue with our daily activities, so that will be easier, rather than you say, Oh, I just do daily mindfulness is enough. But when you see them, you are not able to sit still. Okay, which means your foundation is not strong. So we need actually both, formal practice and informal practice, and the best thing is to combine both, if you can do formal practice, like 10 to 15 minutes or even longer per day, then you can see the differences compared to just doing daily mindfulness. Okay, so both support each other.
Kai Xin (38:38)
I completely agree based on personal experience, as well, when I started going for longer retreats, then I really got the opportunity to get to a point where my mind is still because sometimes, you know when I tried to be mindful in day-to-day life with no foundation, it was very easy to get agitated. But once I get past that stage, I think it’s also faith and confidence, right? Well, it’s possible whatever the Buddha said, is true. And that’s when I experienced it by myself, then, you know, move beyond, go closer and closer to something that is more integrated into day-to-day life. I think that’s a lot more practical, rather than just jumping straight into the battlefield.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (39:17)
Yes, and also one of the qualities of the Dhamma, you know, as we recite Veditabbo, is to experience individually by oneself.
Kai Xin (39:30)
Yeah, people can already tell on your behalf. Yeah.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (39:32)
And then it makes you more confident, it is not only about a book knowledge or about something that we read It is about something that we can truly experience. For example, when we read the Satipatthana sutta, which is the discourse on the establishment of mindfulness, the Buddha give various instruction on how to develop mindfulness. One of these will be being mindful when you are standing, being mindful when you are sitting, being mindful when you’re walking, you know, and being mindful when you’re lying down. It is specifically mentioned in the Sutta itself. And then we have a session on clear awareness or clear comprehension, which is about mindfulness in daily activities. You know, be mindful or be fully aware, when you’re attending to your head, and be fully aware when you’re putting on your robe. For laypeople, when we’re putting on our T-shirts, in everything that we do, even when we speak, when we go to the toilet. So these are actually mentioned in the Sutta. So when you practice it, and you feel that, oh, it’s true. Previously, I always do this activity without mindfulness. Now, I do it with mindfulness – doesn’t mean you have to do it very slowly to get it right. You just have to remind and remember how when you walk, and you can feel that your mind is more stable, okay?
That is the quality of the Samadhi, the quality of composure, your mind becomes more composed and more stable, and you feel it. When you feel it and can explain it, then you want to do it more. Because you in a way like this experience, and that is not wrong to like this experience, because you’ll find that your mind becomes more peaceful, you know, you become more aware, you become less agitated, you know, and then this is what prompted you to practice more. There is what we call to practice the Dharma in daily life. Yeah.
Kai Xin (41:39)
Yeah, definitely. And I think sometimes the litmus test is just when you walk into the kitchen, do you remember why you go into the kitchen? I know sometimes also, when I open a fridge and forget what I want to take out. Why am I here? So then that means no, no mindfulness already.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (41:51)
Yes. So when we are aware we are not mindful, that is mindfulness. So we keep on you know, notice how our mind gets into absent-mindedness, then that is awareness. So do not be afraid to be not mindful. The more that you are aware that you are not mindful, that is mindfulness. That is a way to keep on our practice.
Kai Xin (42:14)
Yeah, wow, that is so powerful, because I know sometimes when like I say I’m absent-minded I keep telling myself, ” Why am I so absent-minded” and it can be quite demoralising. And I would kind of throw in the towel. Right. You reminded me of a saying by Sharon Salzberg. So she’s also a very prominent meditation teacher. She said the moment that you’re aware that your mind has drifted. She called that the magic moment. Because at that moment, you have a choice whether to bring the mind back, or whether to continue wandering and having that choice is so powerful. So I thought I actually wanted to ask you the question, you know, how to sustain a practice, but I thought this is something really interesting to keep reminding ourselves, hey, you know, it’s part of a journey, the fact that I’m aware, I’m progressing, I’m progressing and progressing.
Yeah, I would like to kind of summarise or end this session, or episode with you by asking you if there is any way to know where we are progressing besides what you’ve just mentioned. So that we can feel a little bit more encouraged and find some yardsticks or milestones along the way.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (43:25)
Yeah, this is a very good question. In fact, the yardstick that we should measure our progress on mindfulness meditation is not how long you’re able to sit, or how much fantastic experience you are able to experience okay. It’s not about them. Because these are all temporary, momentary. After you had that experience feels so blissful, and so mindful and then you are looking for more with it and then there is greed in there.
The real yardstick is to see how much our greed, hatred and delusion are getting. If it’s getting less and less and replaced with more wisdom more compassion, more peaceful and calm, then, you are okay. You can ask the people around you or your family member they will tell you usually quite accurately as well. So, this is how we can measure our progress. When we encounter problems, where previously we will get mad, we will get very worried, now, because we are more mindful, we are more mentally ready and we have this Right View and Right Thought. So our defilement getting less and less now which means you become less greedy. Less anxious. And then yeah, and so on. Okay, that is the yardstick that you can measure your progress.
Kai Xin (44:56)
And I suppose that’s also the Buddhist way, right? Because I’ve seen so many secular mindfulness meditation centres or teachers, I’m not going to name names. But sometimes the draw is that oh, you will be able to get these magical experiences or perhaps it will be you can become more successful, etc. It’s not wrong, I think we need all of these to function in our very conventional material life to succeed, etc. But if we can understand that all these are fleeting and transient, then we can move past that. So we still have our corporate success or our worldly success, but we can also sustain the real happiness within which I thought it’s very powerful. So thanks for clarifying that misconception that it’s not just clocking the hours because I used to be that person, like, How long can I sit, then a lot of willpower, but more and more hatred towards myself, like, Hey, how come the mind is not still, etc. So when I also first heard lesser greed, hatred and delusion and wah it was such a big mind-shift moment, because I realised I’d been doing it wrong all this time. So I guess that very, very nicely wraps up.
I hope that’s also a good takeaway for our listeners who are just beginning or even advanced meditators a good reminder. So practice the 4Rs in our day-to-day life. Now it’s my test, Remember, remind, recollect, and retrospect. Yes, I have a little bit of mindfulness through our podcast. Thank you so much, Dr. Kar Kheng, is there any other things you’d like to say to our listeners before we wrap up?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (46:37)
Yeah, I think whether you practice secular mindfulness, or Buddhist mindfulness, please continue. Again, please don’t give it up. Okay. Because I can see mindfulness can really be very helpful and useful in any context. Okay. So when you need to give a public speech, you need to give a corporate presentation, you need to be very calm and mindful as well in everything that you do. So please, continue and I hope to see you again in future.
Kai Xin (47:12)
Yes, definitely. And do search Dr. Kar Kheng if you want to find out more about the Noble Eightfold Path or how to get started with the techniques of meditation. Today is really just a teaser. There’s so much more. So more links in the show notes as well as resources. Thank you for listening. Meanwhile, stay happy and wise. Thank you.
Thank you to our sponsors for this episode:
Alvin Chan, Tan Jia Yee, Siau Yan Chen, Tan Key Seng, Ven You Guang, Soh Hwee hoon, Wilson Tan.
Hey there, this is Kai Xin and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves Podcast, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
Have you ever felt like you aren’t good enough? Or that you don’t measure up? Well, you’re definitely not alone. Our modern society is highly competitive. We were taught to compare since young, where parents often compare our grades with our relatives or neighbours. And our schedule was pretty much packed with tuition so that we don’t fall behind. Many of us probably got a scolding when we played a little too much. It’s the same when we become adults, isn’t it? We compare our lives with our peers, who has a more successful career, a house, a car, a loving partner, and the list goes on. Basically, we all somewhat want to live that Singaporean dream or whatever dream in the city you live in. With all that comparison, it’s definitely not a surprise that at some point, we will feel like a failure.
I’ve definitely felt like a failure in many parts of my life. And speaking from experience, the feeling sucks. And today, our guest Sis Teng Teng is here to reframe our perception of failure, so it can suck a little less. Sis Teng Teng founded her training and coaching business name Grow, to help people be more resourceful in responding to changes, and she’s certified in NLP, enneagram, and many more. She has coached leaders ranging from MDs, GMs to Regional heads from various fortune 500 companies. She has also played a pivotal role in supporting these leaders in their inner mental shifts to navigate the business challenges and demands.
In this episode, we are tapping into our expertise to also help us navigate the demands we set for ourselves in life, whether it’s at work, or whether with our spiritual practice. I really like how Sis Teng Teng asked us this one question during the interview. And that question helped us understand what we are truly searching for. And the question is: Think about a time when you really wanted something. And when you finally got it, is there a difference in how you feel? I repeat. When you finally get what you really wanted, is there a difference in how you feel?
Now you can pause this episode just to reflect a little bit before you continue. It’s really simple but highly profound. And if you’re feeling a little lost in your life right now, I hope this episode can help you gain some clarity on the path ahead. Now, let’s dive right in.
Kai Xin 03:06
Hi Sis Teng Teng. Today, Cheryl and I, are very privileged to learn from your wealth of experience. I understand that you’re in the coaching business for many, many years. Perhaps for our listeners who do not know you. Can you give a brief introduction about yourself?
Sis Teng Teng 03:19
Yes, hi, everyone. My name is Teng Teng, and I have been in human development work for the last 15 years. I started actually more in marketing before, I decided that maybe that’s really not my cup of tea and I was at a crossroads wondering what to do. And that’s where I think people come to me and start to tell me why they enjoy working with me. And that’s when I decided to move to a career dealing with people. So I did human resources, training, and eventually coaching. I’ve been doing full-time coaching for the last 10 years. Predominantly, I work with leaders, and professionals on their leadership development, and help them to kind of navigate some of these challenges that they face at work, from managing people to the conversations that they have with their staff or even for themselves. I work with them on how they actually look at some of these challenges and reframe some of these challenges that they have.
Kai Xin 04:16
I’m so happy to know that you have found your way to coaching and I’m pretty sure it’s very fulfilling. I’m also thinking of many of your coaches or your mentees when they deal with challenges, perhaps the word failure would come up quite a lot. And in the journey of wanting to succeed, people are always afraid of falling behind and failing. So to begin the podcast, I would like to hear your opinion on how you would define failure.
Sis Teng Teng 04:45
The meaning of failure evolved in different parts of my life, right. Of course, when I was younger, failure comes very much in the form of school results, whether you pass or fail- so you try something and you didn’t get what you want. That, to me, at that time is a failure. As I learned the Dhamma and as I kind of moved on in life, I began to look at failure at three different levels.
First, I can look at it as outcome-based, very performance-driven that I set up to do something, I didn’t achieve it, that is a failure. The other one, I find that it’s more helpful, for me now is to look at failure from more of a journey perspective – that I set up to do something, but I’m not there yet. So that’s where the journey of moving towards. That’s something that I begin to embrace a little bit more. The final way I look at it is more from a learning perspective, that when something happens that didn’t meet my expectation, Of course, you don’t feel good. But the reframing comes more from: ” Is there something I can learn from this experience?” And what is the muscle that I don’t have yet, that’s why it’s not meeting my expectation? The definition of failure has evolved over the years. And I find that the second which is the more journey focus and the learning focus, it’s more serving me right now.
Cheryl 05:43
Maybe you can share with us the first memory that you have, where you experience a significant moment of failure. I think that personal experience could be something that we would love to hear and learn from as well.
Sis Teng Teng 06:34
Yes, of course. There was a time when I was like in secondary school. I have two good friends, and one of them actually usually scores quite good results. And somehow, I wanted to compete with her. However, in the final exam, I didn’t meet my expectations. She was first in class, and I was third or fourth in class. I felt very bad, because I felt that no matter how hard I studied, I still could not beat her. And plus, I perceived that she did not spend more time studying than me because she has a boyfriend. She spent her time dating, and I’m so committed, I worked so hard, and I still didn’t get what I want.
So that was my first experience of failure which was a memorable experience. In that episode, I felt that life was very unfair. Why can she be so good? And why not me, even though I put in so much effort?
Sis Teng Teng 07:39
Now that I think about it, what I’m reflecting on is always this part that I feel we always have this ruler in us that we set off to measure whether I’m good enough, or whether I’ve completed or accomplished what I like to accomplish. This ruler is what I’ve been using in order to measure myself, which I think over the years, I realised it’s not very helpful.
Kai Xin 08:07
It’s interesting because I know that since young, a lot of people pick up the whole definition of failure through the education system. We’re always trying to compete to get first, and it follows us into our adult life. I’m also wondering, at which point in your life, did you realise that maybe this is not so sustainable? Or maybe there is a need to reframe that thinking? Was there a trigger point?
Sis Teng Teng 08:35
I don’t think that’s one specific one. But over the years, I think as I get a little bit more in touch with the Dhamma, the Four Noble Truths, I start to really understand where some of this feeling of incompetency, or lack, or sometimes the pain, comes from. It is really about this attachment to the ruler that we have inside us. And what we see as important, or not important, what I like or what I don’t like. There’s always this, I like this, I do more of it; I don’t like this, I do less of. That causes a lot of pain and suffering and unhappiness, on a more day-to-day basis.
So, I think it’s really important to reexamine some of this ruler that I used. Sometimes we have this inflated kind of level of happiness. When I have this then I’ll be happy, if I don’t have this, then I will not be happy. Yeah. So back to your question. There is no specific trigger, but it evolves. I feel very blessed that I am surrounded by teachers and we have friends who share the Dhamma with me, and I think that’s how I slowly get a bit of that gem out of that.
Cheryl 10:01
I think what you shared is very impactful. And it’s very prevalent in all aspects of our lives, right, like Kai Xin mentioned, from academics to everything, even sports, I think a lot of people are pressured to turn their hobbies into something successful like it must be the next hustle. And when you touch upon the word like the feeling of lack and feeling of incompetency, I think a lot of that comes from a fear mindset that, if I’m not good enough, I’m not competent enough. How would people judge me? Do you have any advice on how can we reframe our thinking from one that is fear-based to one that is more open to embracing failure as a friend or companion?
Sis Teng Teng 10:51
Maybe they’ll just ask you, Cheryl, if you were to think about a time when you wanted something so badly, right? And then now you’ve got it, like many years later, is there a difference in the feeling?
Cheryl 11:03
I can definitely show an example. So I really wanted to get promoted. And I finally got a promotion, I felt a sense of happiness, a sense of pride for maybe three days, then after that, I realised what happened immediately was basically, okay, how do I prove myself to be worthy of this promotion? it’s what’s next is the fear that still there and never left?
Sis Teng Teng 11:35
Yeah, and this is exactly what I also realised that when I think back, something that I wanted very badly bent, then I got it. For example, say I wanted to buy a house, right, and I got the house, then a few years later, when I look back at the house, there’s just another house. And I’m just thinking about that inflated level of happiness that we feel we will have when we get that thing. So it’s the same way I look at achievements, right? If I aim to be somewhere, or if I aim to get somewhere, there is a perceived level of happiness. But when I get it, maybe like, say, three days, or maybe a few months later, when I look at that, I would look at it and say, Yeah, I got it, but now it’s feeling the same. The level of happiness dropped in that sense to like normalised. When I can think like that, it helps me not to get so attached with achievements or being successful being known for this.
Sis Teng Teng 12:34
And that’s because there is this impermanence as well, that that feeling will always go away somehow. So when I can kind of remind myself in that way, that what we want and our relationship with what we want will change. Therefore, when we talk about reframing, perhaps take the longer perspective of how we view ourselves. Instead of looking at it more as an outcome, that I need to achieve this, I need to get this, I will reframe it to look into what’s our potential. If you don’t get it right now, it doesn’t define you. What is more important is your own potential. Take a longer view of our perspective, so that we don’t get caught up in one moment or one episode. That’s one way I will look at reframing. And in fact, from also a Buddhist perspective, there is really no permanent self, right? So it’s almost like seeing ourselves like a crowd, we can take many shapes, just borrowing what teacher Thich Nhat Hanh said, it’s like a cloud, you always take different shapes. And with that in mind, there’s no need to get hung up on a permanent identity.
Sis Teng Teng 13:48
When we talk about impermanence, we always see it more from a negative perspective. When things were gone, things will change. But I look at it, the gift from that is, that we can evolve. Things can change, and conditions can change. So it doesn’t always have to be static and, a status quo. When we look at it from that perspective, I think we embrace that things can change, and conditions can change. And therefore, if I don’t get it now, it doesn’t matter because things can change.
Going back to that we can evolve, we can be better. And from also from a coaching perspective, and being trained in human development, I like to look more from a growth, potential development perspective. What is it that I have not learned? What muscle am I building with this so-called failure?Β
The other reframing that I use on myself is to develop the quality of acceptance and self-compassion. I think that’s something that I feel when I was younger, it was a bit lacking. That’s why I was very hard on myself, using the ruler to beat myself up a lot. The quality of acceptance and self-compassion is also what meditation taught me. Because it’s like when you meditate you have wandering thoughts and you say, “No, I don’t have I don’t want to have wandering thought, I’ll suppress it.” And the more they suppress it, the more that wandering thoughts will come. I’ve learned to just say, oh, that’s wandering thoughts, notice it, accept them, and even not resist them, and to just embrace them. The whole process of acceptance from noticing, and non-resistance to just accept it, and just being aware that this is just what it is. I think that helps me a lot in embracing challenges or even failure because sometimes we struggle because we resist. And I feel when we resist, the feeling persists.Β Look at the feeling and see that as part of growing up. When I have this sense of non-resistance, even more, I need acceptance and compassion for myself, so that I don’t struggle as much.Β I feel that sense of peace, and calm in whatever challenges or failure that is, part of a long journey.
Two ways that I look at it is one is to look at it from a potential perspective, a development perspective, and a learning perspective. The other one is to look from more non-resistant acceptance and self-compassion, really.
Kai Xin 16:34
Wow, that’s so powerful. If we resist, the feeling persists. Is there a way for us to be able to differentiate, like the desire that stems from wanting to grow and reach our fullest potential versus that desire that stems from lag? So for example, just now Cheryl talked about promotion, It could be both ways, isn’t it? Like, she could see that, hey, I have done a lot, I’ve contributed a lot, there is more value that I can bring to the table if I’m in a higher rank, hence, I want a promotion. But it can also be another way where maybe it’s a form of comparison. So do you look out for the thought itself? Or is it more of like a feeling in order to know whether it stems from a constructive place?
Sis Teng Teng 17:22
I guess that depends on how self-aware, in terms of awareness, you are about your own intention, and also your own state of mind. So for me, when I have to make a decision, or when I want something, I can use thought, yeah, but I also use a lot of my body in terms of putting that decision or putting that thought in me and see where it sits in my body. I have a body sensation towards that decision or towards that particular intention. And I use that to help me understand what seeds is it cultivating. Is it more from a place of greed? Or it’s coming from a place of wanting to contribute more?
Sometimes, yes, exactly what you say, can be a very blurry line. But the important thing is when we don’t get it. Let’s say when I don’t get that promotion, how do I respond to that? I think that would be a point where we can contemplate our feelings of disappointment. Where does the disappointment come from? Perhaps the disappointment comes because I’m attached to wanting to be better than my colleague. That’s why I’m disappointed that I’m not getting it because other colleagues are being recognised and not me, I’m attached to that wanting to be better than other people. Or, I’m upset I don’t get it because it means that I cannot grow in a position.
So I’m attached to growth because attachment to growth can also be suffering. Wanting to grow, to do more, to fulfil your potential, that itself is an attachment. It’s almost like attaching to wanting to be useful all the time. Notice where do that discomfort, displeasure, and unhappiness come from? Especially during instances when I feel that I failed, or I feel that I’m not happy with something or with the outcome, I will use that to look into where the attachment come from.
Kai Xin 19:35
Yeah, definitely useful. So be in tune with your body. And I think just constantly reflecting on where is the attachment. Yeah, I think it’s a constant journey of learning.
Sis Teng Teng 19:49
Sometimes I think we may not be aware of our own attachment. Yeah, the attachment may not necessarily be something that’s very obvious to us. I think that contemplation and reflection, and just noticing how this particular thing sits in my body gives me a clue on what am I attaching to. So for example, I do workshops, I do coaching, and it’s normal that participants will give feedback. When you see very good feedback, you feel very happy. And then I was like, hey, where does this happy feeling sit with me right now. It makes me feel this very high feeling, and that is a moment that I noticed, I am attaching to that high feeling or vice versa. When I get negative feedback, my heart has dropped. And then I start to notice, where is it in my body, this is the moment where I know I’m attaching to good feedback. And that’s how my body experienced that disappointment. So that’s how I used the body sensation to give me more data.
Cheryl 21:00
I’m just going to jump in here and maybe tap on that, you were sharing, for example, you were attaching to the good feedback. And of course, you dislike the negative feedback that comes after you run a workshop. What are some of the attachments or views that you have of yourself? And how can you make it healthy in a way that could help you to grow into a better coach or trainer?
Sis Teng Teng 21:31
Broadly, I’ll look into what I’m attracted to, and what I am avoiding. One of them is attaching myself to look good in that sense. it’s like you’d like to sound good. I like to see that I train well. I like to perform well. So that’s the attachment to looking good and being good.
Now, of course, we’re not saying this is bad, because you need to strive to deliver good stuff to people. It is fuel for me to do good preparation to make sure that I know my participants. Well, that’s my expertise in that sense (So as to honour that now). But when I overplay it, that is when it gets into the limiting beliefs of myself. So when one participant says not good, then I start to beat myself, I start to say, maybe next time I don’t do it anymore; this is not my cup of tea, I start to go into that route of giving up or feeling that it’s not fair, I did so much, but they don’t appreciate it.
When you say that, balance is to notice when you get into a bit more unwholesome state of mind. Your intention is good because you want to do well, and you want to deliver a piece of work. That is really good for the participants. But when you get too attached to that, you may get into the other side of either critic yourself or criticising the participants, because they do not meet expectations. And that’s where I think, the unwholesome state arises. That’s where I catch myself then say, I’m losing that balance. And I’m losing too much of that, wanting to do well, so much so that I start to feel upset, I start to feel frustrated, or I start to feel that there’s no point. So that’s how I balance it. Just in our state of mind.
Kai Xin 23:39
Wow, that reminds me of the Dhammapada quote, just like a solid rock, not shaken by stone, even so the wise is not affected by praise and blame. And you mentioned the word balanced, it’s so important. You also talked a little bit about sometimes just wanting to give up and wanting to give in. But it might not necessarily be a bad thing sometimes, isn’t it? Because I think the whole concept of giving up can seem very negative. And I know of a lot of people who are actually just sticking through with what they’re doing, just because they don’t want to seem like a failure. So I mean, imagine for yourself, you started off for marketing, there must be some point in time where you feel like this is not really my cup of tea and taking that leap of faith to then transition into training is so courageous. Could you maybe share with us a little bit on the the concept of giving up and when we should actually have the courage to quit?
Sis Teng Teng 24:40
Yeah, when I was I was doing adjunct lecturing for eight years. That is when I first started to get a bit more steady income. I felt so happy about it and was very enthusiastic. So the first five years I was doing with full energy. I really like it. And the students were great. However, on my sixth year, I started to feel a bit bored about the modules, because I’ve been teaching the same module but just a different cohort. And of course, the feeling of maybe I should stop. But anyway, if I stopped, then what if I don’t have a steady income, so I tried to ignore the fear. But I’m really not quite enjoying it as much as I did when I first started. So there’s always this dilemma of should, should not, but I did not quit immediately, because I saw that at that moment, it was a lot more unhappiness with something. That’s why it pushes me to think about something else. I waited for another two years to really think through whether I Should just give up and pursue a different thing or different work. And now that I look back, I felt good about it. Because if I would have made that decision to quit in my fifth year, I think my state of mind is a little bit more, “I don’t want, I want this, and I think it’s very messy. I wasn’t clear.” You’re just very messy and unhappy about certain things. I think that’s where I use what I learned in meditation, that when the state of mind is unclear, pretty messy, and I will not make a good decision. The quality of thinking and the quality of decision will not be good. So I hold on to my decision for another two years, when I started to notice what would still excite my heart again.
Sis Teng Teng 26:41
And the question I asked actually, was, what are the seeds that I want to cultivate? What is the qualities that I can cultivate even deeper, If I have a new piece of work, what does it look like that can help me to cultivate a certain quality or seeds, that I may be missing in doing adjunct lecturing. When I think back, I think when I decided to quit, my state of mind was gratitude that the school has given me a full, almost seven years of steady income. And I have very good students, I have very good support from the school. So I’m looking at that, as from a very thankful, very grateful state, and moving on to another state where I feel that I can continue to grow, and I continue to cultivate, the qualities and the seeds that I want to cultivate. When I make that decision, I feel my state is a lot more steady, a lot clearer. So back to the question that you asked me because sometimes when we are in this challenging situation, we will want to say let us quit and move on to another thing. But I think that’s what sets us into that grasping because we want to escape from something. So what I then suggest is to perhaps pause and to see and to be aware of our state of mind: is it calm? Is it where you’re not pushing or pulling? And if you have a bit of that balance, I think maybe that’s how we can make better decisions for ourselves to decide whether to move on or to let go.
Cheryl 28:23
That was a very powerful sharing. You started with a very binary kind of thinking, Where it’s a ‘should or should not’. ‘ yes or no.’ But I think through your reflections and through your meditations, how you evolved was really into pausing and allowing the answers to come from a place of curiosity. This is something that I recently read on a book like looking into the middle way or the middle path, which is allowing ourselves to unfold into the experience of the present moment and taking note and observing, what information can we glean from that present experience?
So if it is a space of unhappiness, question yourself, how can you turn that into a space of gratitude. Because that is the kind of attitude that you will bring into the next place as well. And if you bring with you a sense of aversion, your next place will not be great. I think that a lot of your views of life is very influenced by your meditation practice. Let’s shift gears into more on the spiritual practice side, the practice of meditation, the practice of the Buddhist path. Would you be able to share some of the significant moments of challenges or failures that you experienced?
Sis Teng Teng 29:55
I won’t say failures that I encountered in my future practice. But I remember a time when I don’t feel excited to meditate. I don’t look forward to meditating. When I have a meditation, especially when you go for some Dharma events, and I feel the reluctance to meditate. That was eight years ago, I have an experience of that. It was a time when I feel very lonely in the practice. And I still remember, even before that, when I first encountered Buddhism, in my uni days that was with the NUS Buddhist Society. The first few years are quite nice to learn new things.Β It’s only after that that I have my first child,Β I find it very lonely, I find that there are a lot of challenges, that I need to figure out myself, and I feel nobody around me to help me. So it’s almost like you need to figure it out yourself. You need to just follow what the Buddha says,Β the Four Noble Truths, then keep telling yourself life is suffering, the suffering is like that. It’s like that. So I felt very helpless. And I even feel that I’m not loved at all. There’s no love in this practice in that sense. So that was a moment I felt when I lost the joy in learning the Dharma. But I have never thought about giving up. I just know that I may not have figured things out well. So that’s a moment where I really just feel that let us stop maybe for a while because I don’t feel that I’m encouraged or inspired to go forward.
Cheryl 31:38
You mentioned something very interesting, which is that you didn’t feel love. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
Sis Teng TengΒ 31:47
Okay, maybe because of my introverted nature, So I don’t have a lot of friends. At that time. I don’t know you’re SBM. Anyways, friends, they have their family, everybody’s busy with their work and family. And of course, I have a very good husband, we talk but I think this is one person. And then being very introverted in nature, that’s less of me seeking out help. So I’ll read books, listen to audios. But this is so much. And because the kids are very, very young, my daughter’s a baby, so I don’t go out very often. Because it’s not easy to find food. And there’s a lot of things I have to do alone. So that’s where I feel I’m not connected with the community. I don’t feel connected with my past spiritual friends. I don’t feel supported. I don’t feel loved. And I think maybe during that time, there’s always this big perception that I have, this myth that I’m holding that this religion is all about pain and suffering. Maybe I haven’t gotten in touch with the word compassion as much yet at that time. So the takeaway perception is always about pain and suffering.
Kai XinΒ 33:05
That’s so important that you share this experience because I’m sure you’re not the only one. There are points in my practice where I feel stuck as well. And the funny thing is, I know there are communities out there, it’s just I’m also quite introverted,Β So the inertia of wanting to reach out, or maybe even a sense of not good enough, like while my practice is not so good, if I go there abit shameful, or I’m not in the right place. Yeah, I’m just wondering, from your own personal experience, do you feel more love right now? Can you share it with us? How do you walk from that point on?
Sis Teng Teng 33:45
I think that’s where I find a lot of help and support from meditation. Because I started to learn a bit more. And of course, from there, I started to get a little bit more into retreats and to listen to different talks by Venerable,Β that’s why I get a better or a shift in how I approach meditation. And now that I think back, one of the things that I started to do is to surround myself with people who are better than me, because I used to fear that. You may feel embarrassed, that you don’t know this, you don’t know that sutta, and then you go out and people talk about it, and you don’t understand. And if I ask a question, I worry it sounds very basic. So there’s this fear again, of not looking good enough. So that holds me back from learning the Dharma. Now I think differently, and because they know more, when I have a challenge, I go to them. And that’s where I think the advice they’re sharing helps a lot.
Sis Teng Teng 34:48
One of the things that I thought I would love to know earlier is to surround myself with people who are better than me. Surround myself with teachers, with friends. And there are actually more people who is more than willing to help you than you think. Because I used to think that people are not as helpful. But that’s a myth. I think people are much more helpful than what we think. But it’s just for me to take a step to ask for help, and then you feel that you are very well supported. So that’s my learning to really surround myself with people who are actually even better than me. That’s how I can progress.
Kai Xin 35:26
This seems quite similar to what you said earlier on. So it’s about letting go that attachment. Because asking for help, can seem like oh, we’re not good enough. But it can also be otherwise, where we’re asking for help, so that we have the potential to grow. Thanks a lot for sharing that perspective.
Sis Teng Teng 35:45
Yeah, and the other thing I also learned is- this is my own litmus test for myself that when I feel I’m not getting that joy in my practice, then I think I’m pushing myself a bit too hard, like feedback for my own practice that if I’m not experiencing joy and this peace of mind, as I meditate, or as I read the books or as I practice the path, I think I may have set myself some unrealistic expectation, like an expectation I need to be at somewhere, I need to know something, I need to be seen as very spiritual, the kind of cultivator that comes back into the ruler that I have. And that will actually stop me from finding joy. And having that allows, you to just meet me as where I am. So that’s another way how I would get feedback on my own practice, that I’m not getting joy.
Cheryl 36:43
The path itself is very challenging and filled with a lot of emotions as we try to progress into a more wholesome state. Would you have any advice that you can share to our listeners here who might be struggling on the path?
Sis Teng Teng 37:01
I don’t know whether this is considered advice, but I’m just curious, what do you do when you’re stuck? Just to see whether what I’m thinking about is what is working for both of you.
Cheryl 37:16
I think when I feel stuck, I would just drop it for a moment and go and distract myself with other things. So then, when I don’t work too hard on it, the answer comes, so I stopped seeking for a solution when I feel stuck.
Kai Xin 37:34
Same I binge-watch a lot of YouTube videos, I just go down the rabbit hole I’ll eat and very unhealthy food. I think to the point where I feel that while I’m, I’m so stupid, and I have like hit the rock bottom. And okay, get out. It’s like when I understand the first noble truth, yeah, then I will feel very ashamed of myself, then I’ll pull myself back up again. Yeah, but depends on the capacity and the clarity of mind, really.
Sis Teng Teng 38:01
So you’re just more like the awarenessΒ that hit and then you can bounce back and just to remind yourself. So, that’s what I do more from an internal perspective like that reflection. And just noticing, like, for me, what am I resisting? What am I struggling with? So just use meditation as an example: When the wandering thoughts come, if I don’t want wandering thought, it will come again, so is that what am I resisting here? And what am I not accepting? So that’s more the internal reflection that I have to remind myself of. Now, the external, which I will then use is now I make an intention to surround myself. Like I said, surround myself with people who are better than me. So I have chat groups that not necessarily I chat with a lot, but they are a chat groups that I value. And I always get into the chat group to ask questions.Β So, it’s more spiritual friendship. That’s more external. And also I will have a podcast, I will have books around me, even in my office, I have one or two very small books that I can access.Β I need to assess this teacher’s wisdom. To help me when I’m being very critical about myself. So I will use them to inspire myself so that I don’t get down but they are more like a support for me more from a day-to-day basis, because I do need inspiration.Β I have to be realistic and also honest with myself. That’s where I am right now is just the beginning of the path. And the more I can reach out for help, the more I can access different wisdom, I think the more I will enjoy the journey. So I don’t have to be too hard on myself, I don’t have to figure out things for myself. I just need to ask for help.
Kai Xin 40:14
Definitely. And we can feel a lot less lonely. With just set thought and with the internet, helpful information is everywhere. And that’s a very positive note to the end of the podcast, actually. And to formally wrap up, I would just like to ask Cheryl, what’s your biggest takeaway from this conversation?
Cheryl 40:34
I think my biggest takeaway here is taking note of the inflated levels of happiness that you expect from certain outcomes. And I think that is very powerful. Because a lot of times the ruler that you mentioned, has no basis, it promises a certain kind of happiness, but it’s really just three days long, or maybe a week, if you’re lucky. And the second thing is that, a lot of our struggles, we don’t have to face it alone, be brave to surround ourselves with people that are better with us. And more often than not, they’re always someone who is very willing to help as long as we have the courage to ask for help.
Kai Xin 41:17
I would like to add on to the list. I think it’s so important that we measure our progress based on joy. And how we do that, it’s by really being in touch with our body, our emotion. And don’t act on anything on an impulse, whether you want to quit or whether you want to pursue certain thing, let it sit for a while and really question our intention, and it has to come from a place of stability as well. So that’s something I took away, which I’m going to start reflecting on on a regular basis. So thanks a lot sister Ting Ting, are there any last words you want to say to our audience? And where can they find you and your work, if they want to?
Sis Teng Teng 41:58
My wrap-up message, is we are trying our best. At that moment when you thought you have failed, just bear in mind that you have tried whatever you could. And it is always a journey. And we evolved. So that’s where we don’t have to be too hard on ourselves. Go back to the wholesome state where you plant your seeds of compassion, you plant your seed of wisdom, and then you continue the path.
Kai Xin 42:27
Thank you, if they want to find out a little bit more about what you do. Where can they go?
Sis Teng Teng 42:32
You can google Grow consultancy, yeah, or you can just type my name Heng, Teng Ting, and then you can find me on LinkedIn, and then we can connect over LinkedIn. Thank you.
Kai Xin 42:46
Before we formally end this episode, I like to invite you to do this simple exercise with me. Wherever you are, take a deep breath and repeat this phrase three times. I am enough. I am enough. I am enough.
Yes, if no one has already told you this, you are enough. You may not be perfect, but hey, you’re trying to be better. And that’s enough. May your ruler always be measured against how adequate you feel within rather than what’s on the outside and may you find joy in whatever you do in life. I hope this episode has brought you some clarity. And if you’ve benefited from this, please do remember to pay it forward by sharing with your friends and you can also give us a five-star review on Spotify. It helps the algorithm and can allow us to reach more people as well. Till the next episode, may you stay happy and wise!
TLDR: In the healthcare line, we often forget to care for ourselves before caring for others. The fear of making mistakes can cripple us. Diving deeper, Li Hui shares her experience as a first-year junior doctor
Since I started work as a first-year junior doctor, also known as (aka) βhouse officerβ or βHOβ, I have gone through many highs and lows. It has been an enriching journey with pain and joy. These are 3 learning points I felt are useful for those starting work. May you take on whatβs useful and discard what is not useful for you!
1. To care for yourself before you care for others
Ever since work started, I have become much more impatient than before. It is easier for small inconveniences to upset me especially when I am tired. For example when my laptop runs out of battery during my ward rounds or simply when the system takes a long time to load.
Whenever I get angry at myself or others, I end up feeling guilty afterwards especially if I was unkind in my speech or actions. In times like this, I try to remind myself that these are only transient states that I have.
Rather than βI am angryβ, I tell myself, βThere is angerβ These emotional states are like passing clouds in the sky and will eventually pass.
I remind myself not to only focus on my flaws as I am not perfect and that we are all trying our best wherever we are.
Being kind to myself is as simple as just acknowledging whatever I am feeling whether it is good or bad.
When there is anger, fear or anxiety, I calm myself down by putting my palm to the centre of my chest and tuning in with myself just for that moment. The warm sensation in my chest diverts my attention away from all the overwhelming emotions in the mind but brings attention to my heart.
One mindfulness teacher once taught us that this practice is called the hand of compassion. And this hand of compassion can be readily available to you anytime you need it.
Kindness to self and others is important in the workplace precisely because of how stressful and tiring work can be.
We are all trying our best for our patients, however, we have to remember that we have to first care for ourselves before we can care for our patients.
2. Itβs okay to make mistakes!
I am someone who is generally very harsh on myself.
When other people make mistakes, I can forgive others very easily. But when I make a mistake, it is almost as if I donβt deserve forgiveness. Perhaps this mindset could be due to the way we were brought up in our education system, in an environment that emphasises the importance of striving and achieving.
I have always tried my best to push myself to be the best I can be. In this process, it is easy to forget that this body of mine is not a machine for me to force it to do whatever I want it to do. I forget that my body and mind need to be cared for and needs to be loved. Part of self-love is also about accepting and forgiving ourselves for the mistakes we have made.
One way I learn to cope with mistakes is to share my encounters with my colleagues and peers so that they would not commit the same mistakes that I’ve made, to protect them and also our future patients.
I always try to tell myself that what is done cannot be undone and there is no point in being upset about it. I still struggle with letting go of my mistakes from time to time.
One of my seniors from the Medical Dharma Circle shared that sometimes when we sit down and meditate after a long day of work, there is a lot of garbage that comes into our minds. There are a lot of thoughts and conversations from the day that surface and we find it hard to settle down on our breath.
And this is expected because this is the state of the unenlightened mind. However, we suffer when we expect our minds to be silent and calm when it is not. It is through this gap between expectation and reality that we find suffering.
Similarly, we make mistakes partly due to our habitual tendencies from the past and our defilements. We are bound to make mistakes because we are still unenlightened and we still have defilements. The best we can do is to accept our mistakes and learn from them. Making the determination to not make the same mistake again can be strengthened by reminding ourselves of the consequences.
3. One step at a time
I first started trekking with my friends when I was still a medical student and I fell in love with it!
I loved the beauty, the peace and the quiet that I experienced during the trek.
Trekking was also about taking one step at a time and your mind being nowhere else but right here in the present, with nothing to think about at all. It was a beautiful experience.
Thereβs a Chinese saying that goes β A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single stepβ. Housemanship has truly been a difficult year thus far. I am chronically tired. Perhaps the fatigue was carried over from medical school, or maybe because of my social commitments and poor sleep hygiene.
But amidst the fatigue and stressors and when work gets overwhelming, I try my best to take it one day at a time, one task at a time.
Sometimes I take deep breaths while waiting for the system to load. So that instead of being caught up in the impatience or anger at wanting things to be done as fast as possible, my attention shifts to my breath and I forget to be angry.
Sometimes I pay attention to the sensation of my feet when I am walking from one place to another instead of being consumed in my thoughts.
I think it is important for us as healthcare workers to find all these coping mechanisms because we need to look after ourselves well to be able to look after others. Our line of work puts us in a very privileged position to care for those in need and all the more this requires us to be kind and gentle to our patients and their family members.
Looking back at work once more
It is difficult to be kind to others when we are burnt out and fatigued. I am extremely grateful to be in this line of work and surrounded by people who have dedicated their lives to serving others too.
Every individual in the hospital plays an important role in patient care.
There is a saying that goes, β To cure sometimes, to relieve often and to comfort alwaysβ. I hope to remember that the least I can do is to listen to my patients and their families and encourage them wherever possible.
I hope that wherever you are in your career, you find time for yourself and the things that matter to you.
Wise Steps:
We canβt care for others if we donβt have enough time for ourselves. Ensure you have moments to recharge and reestablish mindfulness with tools like βhand of compassionβ
We are human. Making mistakes is fine! Just find ways to allow yourself to learn through reflection or peer sharing
One step at a time. This can prevent us from being overwhelmed when there are too many things that need to be done or when the journey ahead seems too difficult to continue.
Well, if you’re listening to this podcast, I’m pretty sure you ask yourself this question sometimes, because you’re constantly trying to find ways to develop yourself to become a better person. And doing good for others and yourself is such a big part of this self improvement journey, however, is doing good, always good.
Who exactly defines what is good or what’s bad? What is right or what is wrong?
So we have the king of fried rice to king of fruits, the king of the jungle. What about the king of goodness?
Hi, my name is Kai Xin. I’m your host for this episode. And you’re listening to the Handful of Leaves podcasts, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
You know, the path to happiness isn’t a smooth one. We will definitely meet with setbacks and challenges around work, relationships, mental well being and so much more. In this podcast, we discuss these realities of life and explore how we can bring the Dharma closer to home so that we can navigate the complexities of life just a little better.
Besides this podcast, we also share resources and insights on our Instagram, Facebook and Telegram channel. Please subscribe if you haven’t already done so.
In this very episode, we have a chat with Sister Sylvia Bay. She graduated with a BA Honours first class in Buddhist studies from the Buddhist and Pali University of Sri Lanka in 2000. Sister Sylvia isn’t just academically smart. Since 1992. She has been dedicating her life to the practice and serving the community, she has been doing so by dedicating time outside of work to give Dhamma talks and lectures, and practical application of the Dharma is always heavily emphasised in all her sharings.
Today, she’ll be opening our minds on a topic of what it means to be good. And the tipping point when doing good, turns bad. Trust me, it’s filled with so much insights. I personally had a lot of ‘aha’ moments. And I encourage you to take a notepad and start taking down some notes. Now let’s begin.
Kai Xin 02:22
Hi, Sister Sylvia, good to have you here.
Sylvia 02:24
Nice to see you too.
Kai Xin 02:27
Yes, it’s really good to have you because today we are exploring something that it’s quiet, I would say, mind-boggling because you know, in Buddhism, we talk about doing good, avoiding evil, and purifying the mind. What I think is mind-boggling is the definition of good. Because you know, people sometimes will justify their actions to say, Oh, I do this because, but it’s a little grey as well. There are a lot of questions that I have for you to kind of explore that grey area. Perhaps we can start off with, what is your definition of good.
Sylvia 03:07
This thing about good? People kind of know, right? I mean, we all have all of us, any of us, even the little ones will have some sense of what’s good and bad. And typically, if you ask people, why is this good? Or why is this bad? It will boil it down to a few things. One, it has to do with feelings. Meaning, if you feel really unpleasant, and because it’s so unpleasant, your instinct is to react to that in a way that will cause pain or more problems for yourself or for others. And because you do that, it will create pain, or, or suffering for yourself or others. Generally, it’s like that.
If you think about it, let’s say I get angry. Anger is an unpleasant sensation. When one feels anger, one will say something or do something that allows one to express that anger. And in saying or in doing, the odds are, it hurts someone, whether it’s yourself or another. And when you step back, you who were angry, when you look at the episode, there will arise a sense of maybe conscience, maybe a bit of shame, a sense that maybe I shouldn’t have done that. There’s regret, and there is remorse. Anybody in a similar situation is likely to say that’s bad. That’s not good.
Conversely, suppose let’s say, you were very kind, you saw people hurting, you came forward, you help. And then you turn away and say, ‘That’s a very nice feeling. I really feel happy I feel light there’s pleasant sensation.’
And then others observing that act, and will also say, ‘Oh, that’s a very good act’.’ Because they also feel pleasure, they feel the pleasant sensation. One thing about what’s good or bad has to do with feeling. Which is why for many people, there is generally some common instinctive appreciation of the act as good or bad. We understand the feeling involved in that. But it’s not all about feelings. We know that. For instance, sometimes you feel unpleasant. Like righteousness, right? Someone gets bullied. And then you look at it, and you go, it’s not nice. The sense that this is wrong, there is unpleasant, but you know, when you feel sorry for someone that’s considered good. But the feeling is not good.
Kai Xin 06:26
I hear a couple of things. So one is you yourself must feel pleasant.
Or it has to stem from wanting to do good, then there must be some form of feedback as well. Right? So other people are approving of your act.
However, I’m just thinking of a very grey situation where maybe somebody is bullied. And I feel righteous that this person mustn’t do this. Then, I act on my feelings, and it might either be scolding that person or maybe I might retaliate, and people around me might say, ‘Wow, you’re so brave to do that.’. Then is it still good?
Sylvia 07:08
Now we go back and we unpack this one. Okay. Let’s unpack this, when you feel sorry for the victim, at that point, what arises is empathy. Empathy is the condition that allows you to continue doing something good for another. Empathy is a good thing. But because our feelings and actions proliferate fast, they react fast, and they proliferate fast. The result is anger will come up, you basically put it righteousness. Righteousness is anger, a sense of justice, which is anger, okay? When that comes up, what is good is now being stained. What would have been good, has now become somewhat stained by our sense of righteous anger. And that’s why there is also that sensation of unpleasantness that because it’s unpleasant, you want to react, whether to score or to stand up for somebody you want to react, and the words that come out is intended to hurt, to beat the other bully. So all this is downstream.
Now, what was initially would have been a good reaction has now become not good. Because now we are experiencing a lot of wanting a lot, which will create more pain for yourself and for others. If you ask me, what would I consider good, is a speech or an act that will lead to benefits and happiness for yourself and for others. It’s always for Buddhism, it’s always for yourself, and for others, it’s not a zero-sum game. It has to be when there is the raising of common interest, benefit, happiness, welfare. In my mind, that’s what I would consider is good and correct. Anything that leads to pain suffering, it will cause hurt for people. It would diminish interest, welfare, happiness, those are considered bad. No good. It’s actually not difficult. It’s pretty straightforward.
How do you know what is good or not, you will experience it through the feelings, for sure you will have the sensation. I’ll give you an example. Suppose let’s say you lost somebody, someone very close to you. And there is a part in you that griefs. No one would say that’s bad per se because it doesn’t hurt another person. But it’s pain, right? You lost somebody, you miss the person, you experience pain. The fact that you experienced pain means there is attachment. There is longing, attachment, longing, it’s always a condition, for problems now and in the future. And in that sense, any form of craving, or wanting or longing, any form of it is not good, unskilful (Akusala). Any form of it.
Kai Xin 11:08
Let’s go back to what you said about any speech or action should be for the welfare and benefit of others and yourself. How do you measure that benefit? Because I’ll give you an example. I think in today’s day and age, there are a lot of activists, you know, small groups wanting to fight for social justice, or environmentalism. And it’s always, there are two sides to a coin, right, somebody feels that it’s valuable to be a vegetarian. And some people feel like no, it’s not really to my advantage and my welfare, and it’s such an inconvenient thing. And I don’t feel happy about it as well. So then it becomes like a dichotomy, or in the process of wanting to do good, perhaps somebody else’s happiness is being compromised?.
Isn’t it vary based on what an individual would value? Then is that something which everyone would agree upon? Who defines the benefit, and who defines what’s good? Isn’t it very subjective?
Sylvia 12:21
Then, of course, there’s some degree of subjectivity. That is true, in fact, in how each person view the world, it’s subjective, in anything that you undertake. If someone perceives that his interest is infringed on that his happiness is compromised, he will perceive you as not nice to him not doing good by him. That is true. There are many causes that people get themselves into that they get very righteous, they are very active and very enthusiastic. But you think a bit harder, it’s questionable about the end results of the causes. That is true, I acknowledged and agreed to that.
Let’s think back about what makes it right and what makes it wrong. The Buddha talked about intention, and how it’s done, and then the results. There are three parts to it.
If your intention was wholesome (Kusala), and you really wish for a common good and everyone can benefit from it. If that’s your intention, then you will experience that it is pleasant. If your intention is pure, your experience will be pleasant. If you say the cause is pure, like protecting life, it is pure, but the way you’re expressing your feeling about it is unpleasant or painful, Then at that point, whatever you say, your motivation is still unwholesome.
I’ll give you an example, let’s say pro-life, people who fight for pro-life and then some of them get so angry, right? That you respect life is pure. But because you’re angry with others who don’t share your views, and therefore, at the point when you feel pain, that motivation has already turned into unwholesome. You just didn’t realise it.
Do you understand? It’s the same thing when you campaign for the weather and climate. You’re doing that because you understand the science that men are paying for the sins of the past. That now you’re angry that there’s a bunch of people who are irresponsible and unreasonable ,and they really don’t care. There is anger. Your cause is maybe good. But because your mind is now narrowly focused on the selfishness of others. The cause is still wholesome, but your motivations are no longer wholesome.
Kai Xin 18:24
Yeah, that’s such a good point. Because I also personally would notice, perhaps there’s some form of attachment, wanting other people to kind of fit my own ideals. And there’s a lot of judging in the process as well. And it’s a valuable point that you pointed out that it doesn’t matter how people judge you because, in my mind, it’s very difficult to please everybody, right, my intention might be pure. And I might go through the motion and execute my pure intention in a skilful way. But if the other person is going to be angry about it, then do I have to feel the need and the sense to fit that person’s ideal, then it will just be a very stressful life to me.
Sylvia 19:09
Then you’re in the world, really. It’s in action reaction.
You know, in some countries, in some regional countries really good. They you see pots and pots of water that they left the leaf outside their house for travellers to be able to drink. It’s very pure. It’s like, I want to be timing and take a drink if you need one. And that’s correct or not. You put the you put the item on the table, and you walk away without because then you’re saying I’m not invested in the outcome. I’m only invested in the purity of the act, but the outcome of it, I’ve walked away from it. I don’t want to hang around and be really caught up in why is it not working.
Kai Xin 19:58
Speaking of that, when you talk about not being invested in the outcome?
Personally, I think it’s very difficult because the outcome is the most tangible. People can’t read minds. And you know, when we talk about being good, we have certain guidelines to follow, don’t lie, don’t kill. And that is the experience also in the process, like, oh, perhaps I have accidentally told a white lie, or I’ve like intentionally out of habit. And then I go into this self guilt kind of mode. How do you reconcile because the outcome is bad, right? I’m not supposed to lie. But then I’m judging my intention.
How does one not be invested in the outcome?
Sylvia 20:47
You know, we’re talking about campaigning for the climate. And that’s a cause, a social cause, a social set of conditions that you’re trying to create what you were referring to separately, it’s about precepts, not telling lies and not killing, not stealing, meaning, the choices you make at a very narrow tactical level.
The other one is you’re talking about a goal. In its most strategic things, it’s like, how do I live my life? How do I raise children, that’s a goal. In that goal, there are many steps and many acts. Many things that you do those minute ones is a separate thing.
Can we take them separately?
Specifically on this issue about precepts, keeping to precepts, that you’re feeling bad because you didn’t do it right. I believe if you understand why the rules are crafted like this, meaning what is the larger objective, then you know how to calibrate your life, calibrate the choices, and you don’t feel bad when you are calibrating. I’ll give you an example. Let’s take lying. The reason is that the consequences on our mind if you generate shades to explain reality, and your shades do not directly correlate with reality, you’re shading the truth, right? When you do that, your mind starts to store your version. In the process of all these narratives being stored in all the different shades, not absolute truth, you’re murky with the truth.The point will come when the mind can’t quite tell, accurately, what is the fact and what is not? The perception of reality of fuzziness, becomes very fuzzy, at some point becomes your reality.
For anyone who’s practising seeing reality as is, this condition of the mind really will be a huge obstacle to practice – to realising the true nature of the mind and be able to kind of shrug away the negative instincts and become a good, wholesome, wise, clear person. Your effort to become all these is going to be seriously undermined by fuzziness. That’s one part of it.
The second part of it is regarding your reputation in society. This is the part that not many people talk about because they don’t realise they may or may not realise that this is an important point, which is something that Buddha had talked about, when someone does not tell absolute truth. It will hit his credibility, social standing, his credibility, his words will not be taken seriously. In assembly, this is how it was set in the Sutta. You think about it, you shade truths, people find out about your shading because truth has a certain way of kind of emerging, right? Then at some point, you have a reputation, she’s very loose with truths. Now you have a problem. You have a credibility problem.
For yourself internally, you can’t quite tell what’s real. For the world, externally. Your words are questionable. If people say, is this a lie? If you’re asking me that, the odds are, you know, you’re being loose with the fact, then you decide do you want to proceed with the elusiveness knowing that at some point, it may cost you your ability to see things clearly. And why do you want to do that?
We uphold these precepts, whether it’s about the truth, whether it’s about not being greedy, and taking things not given to you, whether it’s about honesty in relationship, etc. It really is because all these choices, leaves serious imprint on the mind, it can change your character, it can affect your relationship with people, it can cost you what I call it, social costs, your standing in society, and so on. Those are the practical ones.
Now comes the bigger issue, the most strategic one — the goal, the end goal, the big cause. How can one not be invested in the outcome. If you’re invested with any outcome, there is in you, a clinging, a craving, a desire. It’s not right or wrong, you must know that the more invested you are, the more stress you will feel, the more pain you will experience, the more disappointment is likely to come your way. The more intense your attachment, the more you must be prepared to accept disappointment. That’s the cost.
Kai Xin 26:42
I’m hearing a lot of common thread in your points that the attachment to the desire, having anger, these are considered unwholesome. But does that mean that we shouldn’t have desire at all? How about the desire to be good? At what point would we know that the desire for good will actually turn sour and become bad?
Sylvia 27:06
Desire for good is good only because it leads to good.
Desiring to be good means it’s the start point of downstream choices that will lead to an outcome where you experienced peace, calm, contentment, the cessation of angst, that’s why the desire for good is good. Any other forms of desire that leads to an increase in agitation, increase in pain and suffering, then those desires are unconducive for your welfare too for some it sounds “Oh this is so tall order” for some people. You just have to bring it down to your personal level, bring it home to your daily experience practice. If you say I wish to be a good person, I want to learn to be a good person.
What does it mean downstream? I will read up on what makes a good person, I listen to talks, I watch shows and I try and model behaviour to learn from others. And if you’re very serious about wanting to be a good, person, you will build upon your sense of guilt when you are not good, you feel shame when someone tells you “This is not nice” you feel shame. You’re basically quietly gently generating the conditions that will keep you on track to be a good person who causes nobodies harm and create pain for others, when people in your space they enjoy being with you, okay?
Now let’s take it differently. Let’s say I now desire to push for vaccination for everybody. Can you see the difference? You get agitated. You go ahead. Send out paper flyers, go and hound somebody. What is wrong with you? Why are you not vaccinated? Let me explain to you. As you talk you get more agitated, the fellow listeners get more agitated, the whole world around you get more agitated.
Kai Xin 29:34
What I’m hearing is that there are many causes. They really are a means to an end. Like I want to keep my precepts, or I want people to take the vaccine at the end of the day. It’s really about the welfare, the harmony or feeling peace. I will use my mental state as a yardstick. But you also mentioned shame and guilt. In the Buddhist space, we talk about Hiri Ottapa, this sense of moral shame. And then I’m also thinking on behalf of the listener and the viewers, isn’t shame and guilt an unpleasant feeling?
Some people might think, ‘I don’t think I am moral enough ,or I’m good enough to even be on the path.’ Or I cannot, you know, it’s too hard. I cannot meditate because I’m always not very peaceful. I feel like shame, it is very unpleasant. Is shame and guilt or unpleasant feeling part of the process, we have to be patient with it and see the peace, and again how do we tell it’s so such a fine balance?
Sylvia 30:35
Okay, Hiri Ottapa, Hiri is moral conscience, this is internal, you like it or not it’s there it’s built into all humans the condition, and we know that it’s built in because studies have shown that psychopaths don’t have, that it cannot be turned on that part of the brain doesn’t light up. It actually lights up, okay? And what the Buddha has taught is use this natural state to protect yourself in your practice, it’s considered a good thing because it’s what will keep you from undertaking actions that will cause you problems in your cultivation exercise. For instance, you know these precepts, don’t lie, don’t take what’s not given. If you have conscience, you don’t need this precept to tell you that you cannot do that, you cannot kill. You just don’t want to do it because you know when you do it you feel bad. Then on days when you’re very angry, very, very angry. You want to smack someone. But that part of you that holds you back is this conscience it is very strong, you are reminded that there is a cost to undertaking an action that costs another pain, you will be reminded so that you are taught never to do it. Not that you will never do it. But if you’re constantly reminded, don’t do it because you cannot sleep at night. Then when you’re confronted that situation a new situation, but it’s similar you will not do it because you remember, it will cost you sleepless night. That’s conscience.
Shame (Ottapa) is this sense of a need for communal approval and I believe that this is also in a DNA this part about needing the approval of others, right, I believe this I have no proof. I believe this is also part of our DNA because possibly built in during the time when men was living in a very dangerous world, and the only way he can survive this way he has others like him, and together they help each other in order to be able to continue staying with others, then you must conform to a certain behaviour that communally they agreed to. Your sense of shame is cultural, it is a condition or thought. It changes over time, but it’s really because there is a constant internally, you want to be accepted. And the manifestation of that is you will mirror behaviour, you will follow what people do, you will learn where all the OB markers (“out of bounds marker”) are so that you are accepted within this community. These two pillars for practice, right? It is to help the individual navigate and stay on the path that will give him a sense of peace, when you undertake an action that straight out of these two OB markers, you will have no sense of peace, they are what I call the hard parents smack you then you “I will not transgress” because they are hard.
Initially, it is difficult. But over time you can appreciate it, you can appreciate these two, if you are generally okay. And these two in your life, hold you to a wholesome path. You’re okay with it. Overtime, you feel very peaceful, then you are very grateful for these two that had kept you in check initially.
Conversely, you’re very angry person then this two you will resent then you act on your anger, you get more frustrated. These two fellows now come very hard at you. And they’re trying very hard to hold you in check. But if you refuse to at some point, you drop these two. “Heck I am already so bad, who cares” You will drop your conscience ,you will not allow people to shame you right, now you’re forcefully removing these two pillars, you have no sense of shame, you have no sense of guilt, you will continue to do whatever you want. Creating more pain, discomfort, no peace of mind, more things for yourself. Now you’re spiralling into the negative. It’s very hard to attain these things because really they are conditional.
And you just basically pick a point in this circle, that chicken and egg story. You pick the chicken, and you work from there ,and it leads back to the egg and lead back to the chicken. It sounds like that. Unfortunately, that’s why you just got to start somewhere.
Kai Xin 36:07
I know because some people would say I need to be peaceful first, and then I do all this, you know, good causes, but some people say okay, I do causes first and then eventually I will feel more at peace right then that’s where the chicken and egg comes.
I think it does require some kind of patience, isn’t it? To kind of go through that bump to say, I’ve tried so hard, but I’m constantly getting it wrong. And then dealing with the guilt that is very intense. How would you then advise people to be a bit more patient when they’re trying to be good?
Sylvia 36:41
I always try to start on the side choice because that part you can control. I mean, to the degree that you can, “Do I scold or do I not scold?” “Do I speak out, or do I not speak out? ” At that point you still have a choice. The condition of your mind at that point you didn’t choose. I mean you get angrier and angrier and angrier, it just happens. You didn’t choose to be angry. But once the anger starts, you can choose to react or not. If you have clarity, that if you give into anger today thinking that it’s temporary venting. Now it doesn’t work like that, for whatever choices that you make, it would leave some kind of an imprint on the mind leaving similar imprints for stretches, means those imprint very hard to erase.
That’s why we must start somewhere if you want to overcome anger and become a more peaceful person, you must make a determination to say anger hurts, it causes problems for physical form for the body for the mind, it causes problem, it leaves lingering effects. Therefore, I will learn to moderate my anger, I will learn to tame it, make the determination that you must get started, every time anger peaks its head out, you must smack it back and say, I will not give it to you. I will now bring up friendliness, you will choke on trying to cough up friendliness initially. But if you link these two, I will moderate my anger I will bring up friendliness I will moderate my anger I will bring up friendliness. At some point, that balance will tilt, it becomes easier to bring up friendliness than anger. And it all started with you saying you know what I have enough of this anger, I would get started.
Kai Xin 39:02
Does that require some sense of wisdom and internalisation; otherwise it can sound quite wilful, right? Like we are just clenching our teeth and say, I will be friendly, I’ll be friendly. I mean, speaking for my own experience, when I started walking on the path, I was picking myself up a lot. And there’s a lot of agitation in the process. And sometimes I kind of just want to throw in the towel, you know, and it’s like, how do I do it?
How do people do it? Why are they so nice, you know? How do you balance striving to be good? But then at the same time not being too wilful and just like you know just accepting things as they are and have that restful state.
Sylvia 39:46
You know, in the method right in the training for lay people I always talk about four mental states that you need, sometimes the Buddha mentioned five, but sometimes he mentioned four. You have faith, morality, generosity, wisdom, and you notice wisdom tags number five, four or five. If it’s five, it will be faith. I use the Pali word Saddha which means having confidence, conviction having faith in the teaching the teacher and so on, then morality, and then he introduced one more Sota which is learning the doctrine. I repeat, it can be four, or it can be five mental states. When it is 4 mental states, it is faith, morality, generosity, wisdom. If he talks about 5 mental states the third one, faith, morality, learning, generosity, wisdom. The extra one is learning. Now, why these five mental states right, when you have faith, faith in itself is a pleasant sensation. Very powerful, very pleasant. If you have faith in Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha.
The Buddha, his teaching, the monastic practice. If you have faith, people carrying that mental state will experience a pleasant sensation will be pleasant. Will not be painful. Then you say, but sometime faith is painful. Nope. Faith is not painful. What is painful is something else. Depending on the individual got to figure out what it is, but it’s not faith, faith in itself is very pleasant.
You believe it or not, if you don’t believe me, you just sit down there at where you are. You say to yourself “I have faith, I believe” and you just pause awhile to look at the mind. You will see the mind as either neutral or for those of you with very strong faith you will immediately experience a surging joy. That’s how powerful it can be. This is not difficult to polish for a Buddhist, every day, you go before the Buddha statue, the Buddha Rupa, you take a bow, and you say to yourself, I have faith in you. You just have to do this every day, momentarily, you will experience joy. And this joy, this faith, is very important. It’s very inspiring, motivating. It keeps people saying, I know it’s difficult, but because I have faith I can continue.
Kai Xin 42:59
Would it be different if we turn it inwards? I mean, for those who are non-religious, can they say, ‘I have faith in myself to be a good person or to be happier, to be more at peace.’? Would that be a difference?
Sylvia 43:14
There is a slight difference. Because if for the longest time you were not exactly the nicest person, you say, I have faith in myself to be a nice person. Great. At that point, you enjoy a little “Yes, I do feel good about this”. Then you don’t know how, if you don’t know how, you only say I can do it, but you don’t know how to do it. At some point, disappointment, doubt, will start.
That is why you need other mental states. Faith is step one, right?
And step two is morality then generosity, then wisdom, right? These are the mental states, they work collectively, to inspire you and keep you on the practice. You take away the other mental states, and you have only faith, nothing else. Then this faith is not strong. It’s not sitting on some foundation. It is where that individual say, I believe in Buddha, then when life hits you all kinds of curveballs and you at some point, your faith will wear thin for sure because you have nothing beyond faith.
If you have faith, and you are a good person, so morality right, I’m a good person I learned to do good avoid evil etc. Then I practice generosity, and generosity is another lecture by itself. But let’s say that you practice generosity, giving is just one small part of generosity, generosity of spirit, generosity of its forgiveness, generosity, embracing another’s generosity, giving up your views and your biases is generosity, etc. You have generosity and then you have wisdom.
Wisdom is understanding the transient nature of life. Understanding mortality, so to speak, learning not to hold on to things because holding on will only give you pain, so all these as a whole there is yet another series of talks there. But all these understanding of the nature of mind, all these put together that then you have the relevant tools that will keep you anchored to being good doing good. You are only occasionally true. Because you’re overwhelmed by emotions, and then you tripped a bit. But you basically hop on to the train again, and you are okay. On this wholesome adventure, you’ll be fine.
Kai Xin 46:25
Do you have a mantra or a sentence to help people who are too harsh on themselves?
Sylvia 46:33
You said earlier was correct, patience. But having said that, I will be a bit careful here. Patience must not be used as an excuse. I’m patient, and therefore I can forgive myself anything. It should not be used as an excuse for laziness or for giving yourself a discount on the practice. Patience is to me it’s more like you moderate the harshness moderate part of you that is very judging that you hold yourself to very high standards, and you judge yourself to fall short of that standard that you set. And you tell yourself, it’s okay to moderate. Patience to me, is moderation. It’s accepting that there are some conditions that are hard to overcome. And you moderate expectations. And you at every step, when you do well, you tell yourself now, this is the correct thing to do. Well done, good job. You learn to pat yourself on the back so patience lead to this kind of practices.
Patience is powerful because if it sits on wisdom. Understand that, in our practice in our cultivation, the mental states are not held in isolation, they must work in conjunction with others. Which is why if you look at the Buddha’s teaching, very often they tell you about seven factors of enlightenment, or the five powers of the mind, or the four Iddhipada, superpower states of mind, etc. It’s always a few mental states, all of them are mental states. And all these mental states are always taught as a cluster. Because alone, it doesn’t work. You need a few to hold together a set of conditions conducive for practice, conducive for staying good. Why? Because you are overcoming habits and instincts, and habits and instincts have been formed through a millennium a long time, you cannot overcome these states overnight, can’t be done. When I said earlier about patience, moderation, lowering your bar and all those things, is in recognition that whoever you are, whatever you are, today has been form through millennium. If you don’t even remember all the conditions in the past that led to a takeaway. Set baseline that now, centuries later still surface, you don’t remember what was the condition. But now you got to bear with it. When you understand enough that who you are is the result of conditions from a long ago, therefore it needs time. To understand yourself better, you need time to learn to overcome or overwrite an earlier setting of your instincts, you need to overwrite the earliest software to create new software.
Kai Xin 50:29
So, it can’t just be a sit back and see what happens kind of patience, but it requires an active and deliberate effort to say I forgive, and now I’m acting with certain mental models or framework to be better. How do we know when it’s okay to give in to our desires, say if I have a stressful day at work, I know meditating will help me relieve stress. And it’s good for me. But I don’t have the mental capacity and energy to sit on the cushion. I would rather watch YouTube videos. And then again, the cycle repeats. Oh, guilt trip. ‘Why do I do this?’
Is it more helpful to say it’s okay for me to just indulge in sensual desires and pleasures for just one day until I have the capacity to be more spiritual again. How do you know when to give in to desires and when to not give in to desires?
Sylvia 51:44
No hard and fast rule about these things. It’s individual maturity. And this is what the Buddha had said that if you truly understand through direct knowledge and understanding, we truly understand impermanence meaning, mortality and the pain of birth, if you truly appreciate that and truly get it, that can generate its own momentum for not letting up on practice.
It’s true understanding and wisdom, that then you won’t cave in. The rest of us are not to that level of direct knowledge and understanding. In fact, for many of us, our embracing of the Dharma and the practice is abit of I want my cake and eat it. What do I mean, I experienced Dukkha periodically, I find it so frustrating, life is so Dukkha, I agree. Therefore, going to the Dharma, in anticipation that we practice, my experience of Dukkha diminishes. We go into Dharma to raise the pleasure quotient to reduce the Dukkha quotient.
And because of that, actually, we are still attached to pleasure, we have never really understood, we just want our cake and eat it. We want to enjoy sensual pleasure and life as we always do without the punishment. That sense of pain that comes about because we don’t understand dhamma. For most of us, we fall into this category. And that is why in our practice, our so-called meditation, the putting time aside for meditation, right? It’s always lower on the list of things to do. Most of us are like that meditation, oh gosh, it’s like upstairs, my mind just going to be so boring. Because on the list of pleasurable things, meditation doesn’t usually rank really high. Meditation becomes like duty, which then adds on to the unpleasantness of it, and we equate practice with meditation, which is really jialat because that’s not true.
Practice is not meditation. Meditation is one part of the practice. If you have true wisdom, true insight, true understanding, you will never let up. Because if you don’t have true wisdom, true insight true understanding, then practice is just a list of things you want to do. And sometimes it’s higher (on the list) because you’re inspired. Sometimes it drops to rock bottom because on these games, the world beckons, it is just like that.Β
Is there a right or wrong? There is no right or wrong, I would like to say right means: no press on full steam ahead! But we are laypeople. And laypeople means priorities a little different, and the priorities will start to change only with growing understanding and wisdom. The wisdom is what will cause you to reprioritise at some point because you now rank practice very highly. Because of that, your progress, your insight, your understanding, will take on a new momentum.
And then it will spin in that wholesome and very energetically in the Dhamma way by itself. It’s like you’re driving on the floor. Initially, you have all these road bumps, so you cannot go very far. But at some point, you have overcome the road bumps. And now the road is clear here. And you can speed up and how fast it takes for you to speed, depends on how fast you want to get there, how fast you set the condition in place. And how fast you want to set the condition in place depends on how much pain you are now seeing.
Kai Xin 56:23
What I understand from your explanation on wisdom is that when we truly internalise that, this is something that can be more sustainable than the fleeting pleasures, then it really just propels us there’s no sense of like willpower, I have to do it. It’s a chore. And that’s a very important quality, right? Because I also noticed that some people can feel very gung-ho at the start and say, ‘I want to meditate’. It’s all about clocking the number of hours of meditation. And of course, that’s just one part of the practice.
Or some would say, ‘oh, I am so good at keeping my precept. What is this other person doing? Why is he not living up to that particular moral standard?’
But that itself might lack wisdom, because it’s not so much about transcending Dukkha and it’s not so much about being more at peace and that then becomes like the yardstick isn’t it?
Wisdom is the essential mental quality to really help us be on the right track. And then circling back to where we started. In the process, when we have wisdom, we will naturally feel pleasant, when we’re doing a good act or doing a good cause, did I get it right?
Sylvia 57:45
Wisdom is a very deep mental state. And you can approach this from a different angle, when there is wisdom, there is understanding, understanding of the concepts taught by the Buddha. Correct understanding at a deeper level, when there is wisdom, there is not just understanding, but there is an ability to notice that in your daily life, you form a conclusion that correlate with the teaching. Oh, I can see this. This is what the Buddha meant when he said all these things, capture in this Sutta or this is what the Buddha meant. Wisdom is an enabler, it enables you to understand the teaching, be able to observe the phenomenon in daily life, in direct reflection of the teaching. And wisdom also enables you to make the right choices, it means the choices that will help you grow in understanding, be a more peaceful and calmer person, more content, more at ease. Wisdom enables you to pick wisely, choose wisely. Focus your attention correctly, all gearing you towards realising the driving forces of your mind, how it works. And so you continue in daily life, you continue to do the thing that will enable you to be happier.
Wisdom fundamentally, enables you to live happily, there is no unhappy, wise person. I mean, you can have bad conditions. But when there is wisdom, you don’t feel too bad about your experience. Not great. But it’s okay, I can live with this. Wisdom helps you to accept, and therefore you’re okay. Even though the conditions are bad, this person knows how to let go. He may not know how to articulate to you how he managed to let go but he knows how to. Buddha is just so brilliant. He captured it into a training formula, DIY for everyone. Buddha wisdom is superior to everyone else because he knows how to sum up the driving forces that leads to growth of wisdom. Therefore, growth of happiness.
Kai Xin 1:00:45
I have one last question to wrap up this episode. Talking about wisdom, do you have any actionable tips that the listeners can take away to grow in wisdom and happiness?
Sylvia 1:01:00
What is this wisdom that, I think, would really help is to constantly remind ourselves whatever is transient, whatever is impermanent, feeling perceiving from mental polishing or activities and so on so forth. For everyone, they last for a mere nanosecond. The state itself lasts for mere nanosecond grief, pain, anger, frustration, lalalala. Whatever it is, all that short in a snap of a finger, it’s over. The only time you really realise the meaning of this teaching, right? That in what is impermanent, it is painful. It’s when you are diagnosed with a terminal illness or someone you love is dead. But the reality is, it’s always a condition of life. It is a condition of life that we will all die. But you see, we will happily blindly roam through life completely oblivious, of what is an inevitable situation. In what is inevitable, we are oblivious. Aha! that’s our problem. Because of that, we have the delusion of control. What are you talking about? The illusion of control, I can control people’s mind, I can convince people, so I can get the outcome I want, isn’t it? It’s all about control. When you are mindful of this, its transient and impermanent, and therefore actually, the reality is to Dukkha. And because of that. You don’t have control. Control is a figment of our imagination. Then why is it so important to get this, internalise this, why is it so important? So that you have an incentive to avoid evil, be good? And why is that important? Only then can you be happy, only when you can build your life rich with kindness, compassion, patience, etc. Then moment to moment, you are at ease, not disease, dis-ease, you are at ease you are peaceful.
Kai Xin 1:03:46
To remind ourselves of the fleeting nature of life, we can do it through reflecting on death. And also in the process, we would see the first noble truth which is, there is suffering, that is Dukkha. And that will propel us to then do what is beneficial, what is right. And through this cycle. That’s where we become wiser. We are more aware and mindful of our actions, and it is like rinse and repeat. Correct?
Sylvia 1:04:16
Yes.
Kai Xin 1:04:48
All right. Thanks a lot, Sister Sylvia. It’s been such a pleasure to hear from you and alot of insights. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, listeners for tuning in. I hope you got as much value as I did. Please share with us what is your biggest take away, you can do so on our telegram channel or wherever you are listening to this podcast. Please give us a review because it would really help us to reach more people. And please share if you know anyone who can benefit from this. In the next episode, my co-host Cheryl and I will be touching on this topic a little deeper, exploring perspectives of how we can stand up for what is right in the Buddhist way, and whether Anger is ever justified. How can we treat a person who has committed a bad deed?
Stay tuned for the next episode. Meanwhile, stay happy and wise.
Special Thanks to:
Sopisa for helping with the transcript
Key Seng Tan, and Lynn Leng for sponsoring this podcast
