When the layoffs started, I thought I was untouchable. As a high performing recruiter at one of tech’s biggest firms, I had it all – a comfortable life, the travel, and the premium free food. My career was a large part of my identity.
Then the dreaded town hall happened. “We have to make some difficult decisions…” my boss announced grimly at 12am. Turns out I wasn’t so untouchable after all. Getting laid off at 27 felt like a scathing breakup text from someone you thought you’d marry.
Those first few months were rough. With no job routine to cling to, I zamboni’d between the fridge and doomscrolling Linkedin day after day (who does that, right??) , wallowing in self-pity . Who even was I without the prestigious job title and firm’s colourful T-shirts? A nobody, that’s who.
But as the weeks drifted by, something shifted. Buddhism teaches that nothing is permanent – all phenomena, including our careers and identities, are constantly changing. With no emails pouring in at all hours, I started rediscovering hobbies that gave me joy simply for joy’s sake – talking long walks at 9am on a weekday, going on long meditation retreats, and having catchup with the old and new mates I’d been too “busy” to see.
The Buddha emphasized the importance of spiritual friendship and community for our well-being. Freed from the golden handcuffs of constant performance, I reconnected with my true, non-office bredren who reminded me of my humanity beyond my job description. We laughed, reminisced, and soaked up all the wholesome inklings I’d been quashing.
That’s when it hit me – my career had become an all-consuming, cruchy cage without me even realizing it. Like many Singaporeans, I had succumbed to the toxic view that my career is my identity. By fixating intensely on my career, I’d neglected the very delights that nourish the soul – close friendships, playful passions, and savouring small joys. No wonder I’d been numbing myself with endless grunt hours and gallons of overpriced flat whites!
Buddhist teachings, like those shared on the Handful of Leaves podcast, remind us that clinging to any temporary state causes suffering. As the guest Amy shared, it’s crucial to find joy and purpose in your work itself – not just chase external success metrics. I had lost sight of my deeper “why” amid the rat race.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m stoked to be gainfully employed again. (Rent don’t pay itself, amirite?) But getting laid off unshackled me from the toxic workplace I’d imprisoned myself in. These days, in line with the Kalama Sutta’s advice, I rely on my own discernment rather than society’s career fixations. I no longer rigidly self-identify as just “XXX, techie .” I’m exploring different roles and companies that align with my values for long-term fulfillment, not just for a fancy performance review.
If you’re stuck in that same toxic grind, here are 3 wise steps:
Prioritize purpose over promotions. Nurture playful inklings and community interests beyond corporate ladder-climbing.
Invest in nourishing friendships, as the Buddha taught. Surround yourself with people who remind you of your multidimensional humanity.
Regularly pause and realign. Reflect on whether your current role aligns with your core values and allows space for continued learning and growth. Be willing to pivot if not.
Now, I’m not saying you need to totally disengage from your career either. For many of us, our work is a key part of how we contribute to society and find a sense of purpose. There’s value in applying ourselves diligently to our professional callings when it aligns with our interests and values.
The CEO of a social enterprise improving education access for underprivileged kids may rightfully view their career as integral to their life’s mission. A passionate surgeon might find profound meaning in honing their craft to save more lives. If your career allows you to have a positive impact in an area you care about, by all means, lean into it!
The key is to avoid letting your job totally subsume your identity to the point of spiritual stagnation. Make sure you’re still nurturing other areas of life like family, friends, hobbies and personal growth. But if your work itself is a positive force that energizes you, embrace that too in balance.
At the end of the day, our sense of self-worth should stem from our full, enriching life experiences – not just our job titles or salaries. My layoff was an abrupt yet invaluable wake-up call to stop deriving my entire identity solely from my career persona.
Sure, I’m back in the daily grind. But this time I’m consciously allowing space for the people, passions and simple joys that make life feel purposeful beyond any office role. Getting laid off allowed me to realign my priorities with Buddhist wisdom – and ultimately craft a more sustainable, fulfilling existence that positively impacts the world while nourishing my whole self.
Our careers are What We Do, not Who We Are. The layoff was a Buddhist wake-up call – a reminder to realign my self-worth with my deepest values beyond any office role. Sure, I’m back hustling now. But this time, it’s a more purposeful pursuit allowing space for life’s true treasures outside of just my job.
TLDR: Can networking take a refreshing turn? (Especially in the Buddhist world?) Salvi shares her experiences on how walking and talking without the usual formalities, fosters genuine connections on the move.
This reflection is on a recent Buddhist Net-walking session for 20-40 years professionals that started in Nov 2023. Follow the community updates right here. Or join the next session here.
When we think of networking events, it’s often a mental slideshow of stiff suits, formal nods, and those awkward card exchanges.
But imagine if networking threw away the rulebook, embracing movement, fresh air, and an active spirit. That’s precisely what unfolded at a recent event—an innovative networking & walking session. At first, I was intrigued yet slightly skeptical about this dynamic approach to connecting.
The not-so-awkward session
Initially, the concept of networking on the move seemed akin to rubbing your belly while patting your head—daunting and perhaps a tad clumsy.
I envisioned a parade of professionals awkwardly navigating conversations, fearing stumbling—both verbally and literally. But the reality was far more exhilarating than I anticipated.
As we gathered at the starting point, anticipation mingled with skepticism. Could coherent conversations coexist with walking strides? Would I fumble my words? Who knows? But it was a challenge I was eager to embrace.
Walking & the lack of name cards.
The commencement of our networking journey felt like embarking on a quest for connections in a vibrant dimension.
Here, there were no static tables or uncomfortable glances—our canvas was the landscape, and our pace synchronized with the rhythm of our steps.
Conversations were a whirlwind of interactions, akin to a puzzle constantly rearranging itself. Groups formed and dissolved seamlessly, creating an environment where any corporate nomad would feel at home.
It dawned on me that this wasn’t just about superficial chitchat or exchanging “business cards” (since none of us had any). It was a moving fiesta of networking in its truest form!
Deep conversations
Amid this whirlwind of connections, there was one conversation that stood out—a tête-à-tête about Buddhism within our group and their exposure to its different traditions in Singapore versus other countries was both eye-opening and comforting.
We delved into the nuances of Buddhism, discussing how in Singapore, with its rich cultural tapestry, the various traditions coexist harmoniously.
My conversation partners shared their journey of exploring different branches of Buddhism and the comforting realisation that it’s common not to know which specific tradition one identifies with, especially in a multicultural context like Singapore.
This dialogue illuminated the beauty of embracing diverse traditions and finding peace in shared experiences within a complex spiritual journey. It was a gentle reminder that in a world of multifaceted identities, it’s absolutely fine not to have all the answers.
During the stroll, I unexpectedly met a fellow countrywoman whose mother is in the same industry as me in a different country. It was a serendipitous moment—never did I imagine forming a new business connection while casually walking.
Treasure maps & Diversity
Reflecting on this unconventional networking experience, it was more than just polite exchanges; it was a space for sharing perspectives, learning from diverse experiences, and discovering common ground.This unique networking affair felt like uncovering a treasure map to genuine connections. It was beyond the mere exchange of contact details, evolving into a platform for sharing ideas, stories, and the occasional amusing anecdote—all while accumulating steps that would rival any Fitbit enthusiast’s count.
The End Comes Quick
The only downside was that the stroll ended too soon. However, with the evening still young, some of us extended the networking over dinner—a perfect conclusion to an enriching day.
Here’s to networking with a twist—where conversations walk, talks wander, and “business cards” change hands as naturally as the passing scenery. Who knew networking could be as liberating as a leisurely stroll in the park?
As I bid adieu to this innovative networking escapade, I couldn’t help but cherish the idea that connections, like life, flourish when you’re on the move—exploring, engaging, and occasionally evading a wayward pigeon or two.
Next time you gear up for a networking event, consider swapping the stuffy conference room for comfy sneakers. Who knows, amidst the twists and turns of a networking trail, you might stumble upon your next big idea.
Ready for Buddhist netwalking for professionals 20-40 years? Sign up now
TLDR: Join Sharon in mastering the SBI framework infused with Dhamma wisdom for delivering feedback, fostering understanding, and resolving differences mindfully.
Career Journey Checkpoints
As a leadership coach, I have been seeing clients who are anxious about the year-end performance reviews.
It is common for both the individual contributors and the managers to feel anxiety, nervousness, confusion, wariness etc.
“How can I ask for a salary increment? A promotion?”
“How can I talk about my achievements without sounding boastful?”
“How can I give negative feedback to my direct report?”
These are questions that we can tackle from a Dhamma perspective.
Often, there are some HR guidelines to prepare one for the 1-1 performance reviews. For the individual contributor, it involves self-reflection, listing your achievements of the year, strengths you have applied to good effect, areas of development for next year, any career progression desire etc.
I recommend giving yourself proper quiet time to do this reflection. Instead of feeling the burden of an official performance review, an official writeup, we might use this opportunity to check in with ourselves with compassion.
Try not to be overly attached to the negatives, especially if there is “constructive feedback” from a 360 report.
We might turn attention back to our bodies, noticing the tension arising, breath quickening, as we encounter some triggers and perhaps self-judgment.
“When agitation and worry are present, he knows with understanding: ‘I have agitation and worry,’ or when agitation and worry are not present, he knows with understanding: ‘I have no agitation and worry.’
He understands how the arising of non-arisen agitation and worry comes to be; and he understands how the abandoning of the arisen agitation and worry comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned agitation and worry comes to be.”
We might reframe this one-time performance review as a single check-point in our broader career journey. It is not the final destination, nor a permanent verdict.
We might notice the agitation and worry, but choose not to be attached to it.
How the Dhamma can help you get promoted!
I had a client who wanted to ask her manager for a promotion with a change of title and salary increment.
She felt that it was long overdue, having taken up projects outside her scope of work, always being proactive to help others out, showcasing her strengths and skills in the process.
“Why do you spend extra time and energy taking up all these new projects?”
She answered, “Because I see the gaps and where I can contribute with my skills and knowledge.”
“What is the Impact of you doing all these?”
She answered, “The team feels more confident to move forward quickly, we all felt a sense of accomplishment when the project is completed successfully! We then celebrate with good food and drinks together…I feel happy my ideas are accepted, and that I made a positive impact on the team.”
“What is your current role, and how do you see yourself instead?”
She took a long pause, “Currently I am just an Admin executive, but I have in fact been playing the role of a Project Manager.”
She knows her value, her contributions and her impact on the team and the organization. She had to first update her self-narrative in her mind, and find the words to articulate her intention to her manager.
It kick-started the development conversation, eventually it got escalated by her manager to HR, who then mapped her to a new title and grade.
She was successful not by using hard negotiation skills or trickery, but by speaking with clarity, from a place larger than her Self. Here are some tips to get you started:
Use words and phrases that convey your point clearly and with confidence. Use “I want”, “I would like to”, “I can”, “I have successfully done…”, “I am confident to…”. Avoid words and phrases that take power away from you, or project self-doubt. Stay clear of phrases such as “I guess…”, “At least I might…”, “I am just a…”
Articulate the value you bring to the team and organization. Cite quantifiable evidence of the value and impact of your work. Be ready with your performance data, feedback collected, success stories, anything else that would support your claim for promotion. This is the ammunition that you can provide to your manager for him/her to justify your promotion to the management (if applicable).
If you still feel the jitters, speak to a trusted mentor or wise friend. Get some advice from her/him, especially if she/he has navigated similar situations skillfully.
Some of my clients put in extra time to rehearse, or role play the conversation with someone. If you do not have a coach, a partner or a trusted friend, pets or stuffed animals would work too. If it helps, strike a power pose (think superman or wonderwoman), or put on imaginary armour (think ironman). This does not work for everyone though, but it is always worth a shot. I would be curious to know what worked for you!
Of course, we know life is not perfect, there will be a dozen unsuccessful cases that come with each success story. There are simply other factors outside of our control.
Arrows at work and in the heart
During or after the performance review, we may feel wronged, agitated, angry at the unfairness of it all.
There’s a story about suffering in theSallatha Sutta, one of the oldest Buddhist texts. The story is often retold(with a touch of humour) like this:
The Buddha once asked a student, “If a person is struck by an arrow, is it painful?” The student said duh. He then asked, ”If the person is struck by a second arrow, is it even more painful?” Again, the student said yes, Duh!
The Buddha then explained, “In life, we can’t always control the first arrow. However, the second arrow is our reaction to the first. This second arrow is optional.”
With mindfulness, we can become aware of the second arrow. I have a client who literally feels the impact of the second arrow in his body. It starts with tension in the neck, then shoulders, followed by a heaviness pressing on his chest. No, he did not have a heart attack, but he has clearly felt the self-amplified, paralysing weight of the second arrow.
The awareness that this is a second arrow means he has a choice now. He can choose how he wants to react to the first arrow. In his case it is usually an urgent notification escalating an issue at work, demanding his immediate attention and disrupting his work day.
Instead of immediately feeling stressed, he realised he can pause, discern the urgency of the escalation, and choose whether he needs to attend to it immediately.
He started to feel that he can decide what to prioritise, and how he wants to react. Sometimes he physically stands up, stretches out his chest and arms, intentionally taking a deep breath, before reading the escalation email in detail again.
Becoming a better manager
If you are a manager (or one day might become one), the challenge might be to deliver negative feedback to your direct report.
In official leadership training to new managers, I often teach the SBI framework – Situation, Behaviour, Impact.
This is a great framework to give specific, actionable feedback for future improvement. I suggest to add a touch of Dhamma to it!
In the Pasadika Sutta – “Resolving Differences in Opinion”, the teaching suggests “neither dismissing nor disparaging him, without dismissing him, without disparaging him, you should, with careful attention, make him comprehend only those wordings.” You can find a wonderful Sutta discussion on this by Venerable Canda on Youtube.
The Sutta mentions there can be Disagreements on the Meaning, Disagreements on the Wording, or both. The key is to be mindful of our intention, and approach these differences with compassion.
Our own mindset and emotions will already set the tone of the discussion. The words we use can be triggers for the other person, triggering strong emotions.
When we hold on strongly to our views, it is almost like a verdict with no room for discussion and clarification, much less exploration or co-creation.
Instead of going into a tough conversation trying to “win over” the other person, we might ask open-ended questions to engage in discussion.
Sometimes simply asking “How can I support you?” or “What do you need from me?” would work. We have to be mindful that strong words or phrases can trigger negative emotions. Try to stay objective and avoid attacking the person with “You are always so rude/lazy/slow” etc.
Corporate & Compassion?
In the corporate setting we sometimes feel limited by unspoken boundaries. Do we share emotions? Talk about our fears? Say out loud the narratives or assumptions in our heads?
Do we have the courage and skills to hold space for the person sharing these? Do we have the emotional vocabulary to label the emotion we are feeling?
It is often a process to self-reflect, learn and experiment as we go along this journey. My ask of you is to meet people where they are, regardless of what stage they are at, with compassion for a fellow Sentient Being.
Once you have internalized these suttas & ways to approach tough conversations, performance reviews will feel more like a walk in the park.
Wise Steps:
Block time for self-reflection, update your self-narrative in your mind, and find the words to articulate your intention to your manager.
Stop stabbing yourself with the second arrow. Talk to a wise mentor or Kalyāṇa-mittatā (virtuous friend or admirable friend).
Meet people where they are, regardless of what stage they are at, with compassion for a fellow Sentient Being (Being that has senses).
Wholesome Wednesdays (WW): Bringing you curated positive content on Wednesdays to uplift your hump day.
Burnout can happen anytime and anywhere. When it happens, the whole world feels shakey and dark. How can we identify if we are falling into such states? Is leaving a career/ relationship that is causing us great stress a bad thing? Here are two resources that might benefit you.
1. There are different types of burnout, do you identify with any of these? 2. Maybe it is time to leave.
There are different types of burnout, do you identify with any of these?
Cr: Unsplash
What’s going on here & Why we like it
Havard Business Review, a business media platform, shares about the different types of burnout that one might be facing. We like it because it is widely encompassing and it also forces us to do a reality check on ourselves at work. When we are fully burnout, we aren’t in the mindstate to decide on what’s best and that might impact those who are closest to us. Using this resource enables us to catch burnout before it happens.
“While burnout is a common workplace affliction, it comes in different shapes and sizes”
Wise Steps
Identify if we are facing any of these archetypes and if we can take active steps to prevent them from accelerating
Talk to a mentor if you are feeling uncertain about your job or just not feeling it is the right fit. A listening ear might just help
The tiny wisdom, an awesome Instagram comics page, shares a comic about leaving. Knowing when it is time to leave and grow. Often, we think of leaving as a failure on our part. However, this comic shines a new light on leaving. It is painful but it enables us to see and go places we’ve never been or done. We like it because it reframes leaving from something generally negative to something positive. Maybe this is a time to leave a job or a working relationship behind to grow.
Her simple analogy of climbing a mountain that you no longer have joy in climbing hits home hard as young working adults. We may wish for a promotion/ dream job/ dream partner only to realise it is not what we wanted. It is okay to acknowledge that things change and give up.
“But at some point life goes on
And we need to go
To places we’ve never been
To do things we’ve never done
To experience life while we can”
Wise Steps
Search within: What bad qualities/ unskillful behaviour can we leave behind this month?
Contemplate: Are we holding on to an ideal career/life that everyone except yourself seems to envy?
To compare those who are in the position of a jack of all trades to someone who is specialised, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you fail at climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water.
Kai Xin 00:17
Hey, friends, this is Kai Xin and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddha’s wisdom for a happier life. Do you feel average, average in a sense that you’re good at a bit of this and a bit of that, but not great at anything in particular? And when you look at people who ‘made it in life’, people who have figured it all out, people who are celebrated for their expertise, does that makes you question your life? What do I really want? Am I meant to be doing what I’m doing right now? Should I be doing something else? And the more you ask these existential questions, the more stuck you feel. But what if you’re meant to be good at a little bit of everything? And what if not having a clear plan about the future is completely okay. And that’s what we’ll be exploring in this episode.
Kai Xin 01:26
Cheryl and I chat with Ling Ling, who was an engineer, a trainer who has a Master of Science in Psychology, and now back to being a student. A jack of all trades, some would call her, and she’s perfectly happy being that. It is the combination of courage and curiosity that made her walk the nonlinear path with joy. And this episode, we uncover the balance between having a plan and being spontaneous. Knowing what to do when we’re at a crossroad and the clear steps of how to get unstuck in life, you also get an inside view of how to answer this classic question from a job recruiter. Where do you see yourself in three to five years time? Stick to the end of the episode to hear all of our candid answers to the questions. Now, let’s dive right in.
Kai Xin 02:22
It’s so good to have you Ling Ling join us on this episode. And I believe we can all learn from your very unconventional path and wonderful experience. So today, we have our co-host Cheryl and myself to ask you some tough questions that might get a little personal.
Ling Ling 02:37
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Kai Xin 02:39
Maybe you can share with the listeners. If you were to choose between planning and being spontaneous, which would you choose?
Ling Ling 02:49
Actually, I believe it’s good to be comfortable with both, to be able to plan for things, and to be spontaneous because there are times in life when you need to do the planning, and there are certain times in life when being spontaneous is far better. So to give a personal experience in 2008, which is around the Asian financial or the global financial crisis, it was after some years of working as an engineer and a technical trainer, I decided to switch careers from being an engineer to a psychologist. So in order to become a psychologist, I decided to take my first master’s programme in psychology in the UK. And this particular master’s programme is special because it is designed specifically for people from other careers who want to join psychology field, it’s called a conversion programme.
Ling Ling 03:39
The plan was that at the onset of the financial crisis, after graduation, the financial crisis would be over. And I would then be able to find work in the field of psychology after graduation because in the past, when there was a financial crisis, or there was a recession, it usually takes about a year or two years to turn around. And the programme itself was about two years ago, so I figured, okay, once I graduate, I can surely find something in psychology. But as it turns out, the 2008 financial crisis lasted much, much longer, and it didn’t work out that way. After graduating from my master’s programme, it took me more than a year to find actual work, it was so so difficult to find work in the UK at that time. And not only that, I faced discrimination, I was running out of savings, I worked odd jobs to survive. And at that time, after almost a year of trying to look for work, I really didn’t know what to do. I hit the lowest period of my life. It came to a point where I only had less than 100 pounds in my bank account. And I wasn’t too sure whether I should remain in the UK in order to continue to look for work in psychology or to return back to Malaysia (because I’m from Malaysia.)
Ling Ling 04:56
So at this lowest period of my life I was feeling so stuck. I was feeling really anxious. I didn’t know what to do. But this spontaneous idea that came to mind to go on a meditation retreat. I don’t know why meditation retreat, but I needed to go on one. And I needed to make sure that as much as possible, this could be like a really cheap retreat or a free retreat, if possible because I only had so much money in my account. But thank goodness, we had Google that time. And from Google, it brought me to a website called Goenka Vipassana, and they had like a centre in the UK called Dhammadippa, which is fantastic, because they had a 10 day silent retreat in the countryside of the UK, and it’s entirely donation based. So it’s up to me how much I want to donate at the end of the 10 days retreat, and they provide your own room, as well as food, which is fantastic. Also, with a little bit of searching and a little bit of luck, I found a bus company that was able to provide bus tickets for one pound each way- one pound to get there on one pound to return. So I thought, okay, yes, this is fated for me, I gotta go to this silent meditation retreat. And this retreat introduced me to Vipassana meditation. So Vipassana is a Pali word, meaning insight. So in translation, it’s called Insight meditation. So basically, Insight Meditation is the training of the mind to observe bodily sensations as well as the content of the mind. Because I was introduced to this meditation technique, it really changed my life totally, like, from that moment on.
Ling Ling 06:47
My life gradually became calmer, and more balanced. And even though I’ve met different challenges in life afterward, I had greater confidence to face them and overcome them. So there was that act of spontaneity, allowing the universe or the life to show you paths, so your choices, but also there was that plan of mine, you know, trying to look for work after graduation. So there are times when we need both planning and spontaneity. And you also have to remember that, when you planned plans do not rarely turned out as planned. Because as we grew up, we were taught to plan the days or years of our life. But when we are so focused on our plan, we lose our ability to be spontaneous. And when you’re spontaneous, their incomes, all the other things that are wonderful to like, seeing different connections, being creative, having more fun and having more play in your life. When we’re not spontaneous, we also cut ourselves off from serendipitous moments, all these coincidental connections, meeting random people who could be the best friends or the love of your life, or you could see things in your environment that give you quiet signs that point you down a different direction in life that could probably give you greater happiness, greater love, greater joy.
So to me, you need to be able to plan of course, because that’s how things move forward. You need to complete tasks to meet deadlines, but you also need spontaneity to be able to broaden your mind, bring more fun and creativity, and so on. I hope that answers your question.
Cheryl 08:28
Yeah, I think that definitely answers the question. And I think it’s a very nice balance also because when you’re planning you’re giving yourself direction. And when you’re being spontaneous, you’re not forcing yourself to the stuck kind of outcome that you want. You’re allowing, you know, the world to open up to you meeting new people, like you say, you know, in the beautiful word that you used serendipitously. Serendipity. Yeah. And I was just wondering like so you said after the vipassana retreat, you felt more calm and more balanced? And did you feel like you shifted your personality or worldview in the sense that you became leaning more towards spontaneity? Or are you still you know, kind of very stuck in the middle of like planning and spontaneity?
Ling Ling 09:16
It was a drastic change. It was a gradual change because what the retreat taught me is that it is a daily practice. It’s not something where you know, you take a pill, you change overnight. If you stop practising it, you lose the balance of your mind. I don’t lean towards either planning or spontaneity. I use my own life experiences, as well as gut feeling and wisdom, which is better. For example, right now I’m doing my second master’s programme. I’m studying the psychology of intercultural relations. And of course, I cannot be spontaneous in my data collection, and spontaneous when I feel like writing I actually have to sit down and come up with a plan. And how many articles do I read this week and how many notes do I need to write because otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to meet the deadline. But in between those times, because I’m doing this Master’s course, in Portugal, I would also like to explore and experience what life is like in Portugal, so I need to create or plan spontaneous moments where I can go out and understand the culture, meet different people and just experience what Portuguese life has, you know, presents itself to me. Yeah. So you can plan spontaneity, and you can be spontaneous and your plans too, like me suddenly deciding to come to Portugal to do my second master’s programme. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Kai Xin 10:44
I really liked that. I also have a personal experience, actually, all my life, I realised none of my plans go according to plan. Like, I wanted to go to university. In the end, I started a business and because of starting a business, I have more flexibility in time, then I also went on retreats, and meet really great teachers who have changed my life. And yeah, I think it’s really about keeping an open mind to have an overall sense of direction. But at the same time, don’t be too close-minded such that we lose sight of opportunities that are just right in front of us, and meeting you was serendipitous as well because it was my one and a half months trip to Amaravati, which is in the UK that I met a Thai friend, who then became your friend, and then she connected us. If I’m not spontaneous, and you are not spontaneous, we wouldn’t have this competition. So I really liked that it allow things to unfold by themselves.
Ling Ling 11:37
Precisely that is an excellent example, Kai Xin, seeing the way we both connected.
Kai Xin 11:43
Like Steve Jobs said, you can only connect the dots backward. And I’m also wondering, you know, in today’s society, especially when you go to interviews, people would ask, or interviewers would ask, Cheryl is a recruiter, I’m not so sure whether she asked this question, what would you do in three to five years time? And I suppose that that question has the intention of really understanding whether a person or the potential hire, the candidate has clarity in terms of their career, trajectory, etc. But some people just don’t know. Like, I could tell you five years ago, that I have a particular plan for what I wanted to do five years later, which is now. But has it happened? Not quite yet. So I’m wondering, what is your opinion on this? Did you know what you wanted to do in five to 10 years’ time? And how do you sit with the idea of not knowing?
Ling Ling 12:35
The easy answer is I don’t really know, we cannot predict the future. And I think recruiters deep down, they also know this, but they ask it anyway, just to get a sense of whether this person has their own challenge, has like a career planning and stuff. But I also want to hear from Cheryl.
Cheryl 12:55
No, so the fun thing is, I will usually reject people who give me a perfect answer on what exactly they’re gonna do in five years because that shows that they could be very stuck, and they are not open to adapting to different challenges or different situations. So it’s actually a trick question. You need to have, you know, like, the kind of direction but also you need to have the humility to say that you don’t know and, and you are open to it, but people who are very structured, and this is exactly what I’m gonna do, and I’m like, okay, bye.
Kai Xin 13:22
So I’m quite curious here, like, what would be an acceptable answer? Because if people just say, I don’t know, it can come across as you don’t have your life sorted out.
Cheryl 13:33
I think it’s the way they answer. Sorry, this question is for Ling Ling but just I’m just stealing the spotlight here.
Ling Ling 13:39
I’m curious to find out what the thoughts of a recruiter so if I apply for a job, and I get that, I get that question, and I know how to answer it.
Cheryl 13:49
Yeah, it’s how you answer the I don’t know, right? Because I don’t know could be I don’t know. And I don’t care that that is a huge red flag that this person doesn’t have the kind of zest for learning or self-improvement. But if it’s I don’t know, but I’ve done things, you know, I’ve had the courage to try different things, then that is definitely an acceptable answer, because who gets things right all the time, and companies can’t succeed when they only hire people who have done things the way they have done it before. There will not be innovation and creativity and challenging the industry to be to the next level.
Kai Xin 14:22
I really like what you say about the courage to try new things and Lingling, I know you’ve tried a lot of new things over many years, and your plans keep changing, right? Could you share with us how you have such courage to try new things or when you’re stuck, you don’t know what to do next? What’s your guiding question or philosophy?
Ling Ling 14:41
Actually, every time my career changes, they are done for many different reasons. So sometimes it’s because okay, this particular career path is not working out for me. I don’t feel joy, going to the office feels like a drag and I could feel my sense of emotional and mental well-being, decreasing. So I know I need to do something. So that one was not so much out of courage, it was more out of necessity. For example, just like everyone else, I was told, from a young age you must get a good degree, you get a good job, then you get a big house, you find someone to marry and have kids. Now, I’ve been told this all of us, we’ve been told this, right? So at a young age, of course, I don’t know what to do. And I was persuaded to do electronics engineering as my bachelor’s degree. I did, I chose that degree because I was really good at mathematics and actually enjoyed mathematics. But maths and engineering are different things, as I found out for my degree, so when I did the job, it, it was okay. But it wasn’t something that gave me joy. It wasn’t something that gave me excitement, it became like a daily routine. And I could slowly feel like if I continued on this daily routine of being on this hamster wheel, a part of me slowly like dying. Maybe that’s too much of a word, but it just feels like I couldn’t be myself anymore.
And then, fortunately, within the department, I was working in engineering, they had after a year as an engineer, they opened three different vacancies. So two of them were manager positions, and one was a training position, an engineering trainer position. At that time, I was still young in my career, I wasn’t so interested in becoming a manager. And I know based on what was being told, I should be a manager, because that should give me more money. But I wasn’t interested, My heart told me yes, training seemed a lot more interesting, I’ll be more excited to do that, compared to being a manager and I followed my gut, I followed my heart I followed where I believe, can give me greater joy. I applied for it, I got it.
It changed my career from being an engineer to one step closer to being a training and development professional. At that time, it was called training and development, it wasn’t yet called learning and development. So through that work, I met so many different people, I had the opportunity to travel internationally to learn from different experts and bring that knowledge back to Malaysia, (I was based in Malaysia at that time,) and train other engineers on all these wonderful things that I’ve learned, all the programmes that I’ve created for them and such. So as I was in that particular role, I did, of course, self-examination and self-reflecting, on why is it this particular job, give me so much joy and excitement as compared to an engineering job, right.
After some reflection, I realised like, I find a lot of excitement and joy, and creativity, when I get to meet people, I get to understand their perspectives, and I get to learn from them. And also to see how their mind works, to see how they behave. So all of that pointed toward psychology. After three years plus of working in this particular role as an engineering trainer, then the financial crisis hit and I thought, “Okay, this will be a fantastic time to switch careers.” It was courage, but it was also out of necessity. And it also felt, right.
Kai Xin 18:19
Yeah. And you turn inwards in order to find what exactly is their motivation. Or it’s not just joy and excitement, but it’s really about connection. It’s about meeting people and learning things. And that is something that you can find anywhere, which I believe is not just our training and development, right? You travel a lot. I believe that’s what makes you travel because you can meet people, also, am I right to assume then?
Ling Ling 18:44
Yeah, so I travel a lot in my life. In my entire life. I lived in eight different countries, Portugal is my country number seven. The other country I lived in was Serbia for a few months last year. And because of this opportunity to live in different cultures, I enjoy learning about different cultures and how people can live very differently, still survive, still find love and happiness, and joy.
Kai Xin 19:11
And now you’re pivoted into cultural intelligence as your study.
Ling Ling 19:17
That’s one of the things that I’m studying. That’s one of the things I’m also training. I’m a cultural intelligence facilitator with the Cultural Intelligence Centre in the US. What I’m studying is called the psychology of intercultural relations. So I study the cultural values and cultures of different groups of people. But what I also study is how different groups of people interact with each other, different ethnicities, different generations different, just different social groups. And when they interact with each other, what comes out of it. So, it points toward issues that we face now, and that we see in the world in terms of racism, sexism, and all forms of discrimination, and prejudice, as a going-to-be psychologist. What is it that I can learn from these experiences? And what is it that I can do to help create a more equitable and inclusive world in our society?
Cheryl 20:14
I really love how you use your experiences and all this knowledge, sort of like you absorb all this and it informs your worldview, and you’re just so curious to learn a little bit more and more. And although I think you’re a little bit hesitant to use the word courage, I feel that courage is an underlying theme that is really driving the way you move. Because speaking from experience, I also understand the complete narrative, right, you know, get the right like finance lawyer doctor kind of degree, and these are the only right degrees you could do. So I was pressured to take accounting as my degree. And all my friends who knew me, like knew my personality, they’re like, Cheryl, you’re going down the wrong path! What are you doing? And at that time, I was very stubborn. I was like, No, I love accounting. It was the only course in my life that made me cry every single day.
I couldn’t get it and I hated it and was just like, What am I doing here? Yeah, so then I switch out also, after that, to psychology as well. And I think from experiences, really courage, because it’s something where everyone around you is not doing, it seems like you’re almost like a failure, right? You know, everyone’s continuing with whatever degree chasing whatever managerial role they’re doing. Whereas you’re kind of like taking a step back and starting from scratch and doing something else. So, you know, in these kinds of situations seems like almost everyone is against you, right? How do you still like, or what do you use to help you make decisions going forward? And how do you still like, convince yourself that, okay, this is the right way to, you know, you turn and go with something else?
Ling Ling 21:49
It can be really hard when your, especially your loved ones don’t support your work. But the thought process that I go through and make this decision is asking myself this question, what is the alternative? And is the alternative better than the possibility of the option that’s presented in front of me or not? So the alternative would be always likely staying on the same path, which I’ve already tried, and I already know that no matter what I do, in my control, maybe it couldn’t be any better because I’ve tried everything that I could, right? And then there there are these other options that are presented in front of me? And then I think to myself, will these options be worse or better than where I am now?
Cheryl 21:49
But you can never know for sure.
Ling Ling 21:52
No, you never know for sure. So you can come up with different pros and cons lists, you could talk to a whole bunch of people, you can talk to those who have been in their careers and such. But the truth is, we’re all emotional beings. We make decisions based on our emotions, no matter how much we try to patch it up or cushion it with facts and pros and cons list and whatever not. So I remember watching this movie, I think it’s called the Second Best Marigold Exotic Hotel or something like that. And there’s a particular scene in the movie, Maggie Smith, a British actress was in a taxi and was complaining to the taxi driver, right. And she was in a conundrum, she couldn’t figure out what to decide. So the taxi driver says, flip a coin, have the coin decide for you? And then she was like, why flip a coin? And he says, Well, you will already know the answer before the coin lands. So if you’re really truly honest with yourself, you actually know the answer already. And you know, if you go against your true answer within yourself, you’re not giving yourself the opportunity to live your life to self actualise. And if you do not know the answer and if you’re not very sure whether to trust your inner answer, it’s also okay. It’s fine. Just stay where you are. You don’t have to make a decision. And when the right pieces or the right information or the right time falls into place, you will know with great certainty Yes, this I need to go. I need to do this. Otherwise, the alternative will be I’m going to spend 20-30 years thinking what if what if, what if, what if what if, and that is just as painful as trying and failing. Or even more.
Kai Xin 24:21
Personally, I find it helpful to then balance the spontaneous as well as the certainty part here because sometimes when everyone around you are trying to dissuade you from following your heart, if you don’t have a very convincing reason, you wouldn’t be able to deny the adults with much conviction and it wouldn’t be very persuasive. Right? So then we waver. So I guess that’s where planning becomes important because it’s not just all about following our heart and you know, living a carefree life, we want to care we want to plan and it has to be practical. So you know we have to feed ourselves financially, be stable, etc. Not just quit my job because I don’t like et cetera, and live in this very distorted worldview, and I know perhaps a lot of times people are doubtful about our decision to switch path, especially in the Asian context, once you enter maybe secondary school and you choose your specialisation, pretty much your path is set. And it seems like you know, a little bit of everything, but you’re not good at one thing. And when people ask me, “So what do you specialise in? Or what’s your trade? Oh, I’m not sure I’m kind of a little bit good at everything. And I think that’s where it can impair our confidence as well. So I’m going to move into the next theme. And both of you can chime in on what your thoughts are. Do you feel that it is actually okay to be a Jack of all trades? Or do you feel that it’s better to master one domain and be the subject matter expert?
Ling Ling 25:53
Actually, I think it’s really unfair to pit jack of all trades with specialisation to make such comparison because I think you’re really comparing a Durian to a rambutan. I mean, some people like rambutan, some people like durian, right? Because a specialisation requires a specific set of skills, a specific set of knowledge, it’s the same with Jack of all trades, because they have the ability to see connections in different areas. And those connections, bring out creativity bring out innovation, and they require the ability to be flexible and adaptable in different situations. So I think to compare them both is really unfair, and those who are in the position of a jack of all trades, and being compared to a specialisation, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you know, you fail, at like climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water. So if you’re a jack of all trades, and you’re being told, okay, you’re not so good enough in this, be confident in your own skills and your own experience to say yes, I’m not good enough in this one specific area.
But I’m good enough to know, that this specific area can connect to other areas, which can bring out something a lot more beautiful, or something more creative, or something more innovative, whatever that is. So an example could be let me think, okay, currently, I’m in academia. And I’m surrounded by people who are really, really fantastic in their research, they’re very detailed in the way that they review journals. And they look at that data and analysis and come up with wonderful findings. But they don’t have the skills, or they don’t have the experiences to share this knowledge in public. So public speaking is something that they’re not particularly experienced in. Whereas like, I’ve also been connected with public speakers, and they’re really great and telling stories and sharing inspiration. But behind those stories, there’s like, where’s the data? Where’s the science? So you can like, I have a little bit of both, I do public speaking, because I’ve been a trainer and a facilitator all this life, but now my interest is moving towards research because I wanted to make sure whatever I share with the world has a scientific basis behind it. So, you can tell me, yes, I’m not the best public speaker, I’m not the best researcher. But with these two skills, I can do something that a pure researcher cannot do, or a pure public speaker cannot do. So it’s not fair, I think to make that comparison.
Cheryl 28:25
Yeah. And I think it’s also really about the self-awareness of knowing what you can bring to the table, what strengths you have, or what weaknesses you have, and really owning that in a sense of, okay, I know I’m really good in my data analytics, and you know, wherever you go, or whatever space you go into, really add value in there, instead of trying to constantly like, look out, oh, I suck at like, public speaking, I shouldn’t be here and like, stuff like that. And I think my perspective comes from in school, I was really into sports, and I was very curious about all sorts of sports, I would play badminton then and after that switch, and then pick up squash, and now there’s, like, volleyball, and then I’ll kind of be just like meh in everything. I was like, I want to try the next new sport out there. And I always compare like, wow they’re so good at basketball! How do they do it? So it always came from a place of inferiority and competition, like within myself, but then I think as time evolved, and as I grew, I realised, it is really about valuing the curiosity that I have for learning new things and going through the rigour of picking up things from scratch, instead of just deepening myself in just one area. So yeah, I think this question can be looked at from different perspectives also, in terms of valuing what you have.
Kai Xin 29:34
Yeah, and I know sometimes it can seem that we are fickle-minded. If we keep trying out new things people wouldn’t see us as curious people would just like make up your mind, what do you want to do? And Jack of all trades has a very bad reputation. But there are more research studies that show actually having general knowledge can give you an added advantage because I mean, especially in the career space As right things are moving so quickly. In the past, let’s say if both of you were stuck in engineering and accounting, it might be completely obsolete in the next 20 years. So if you don’t have the soft skills, you don’t have skills like psychology, asking the questions for the facilitation, probably connecting the dots will be a little bit challenging. Cheryl I know, as a recruiter, probably you’ve also seen trends, right, that technical role now also has to understand some non-tech stuff and possess some of these skill sets. So I really like how both of you brought in the point that it’s not really about either, or, it’s really, what can you offer and constantly evolve, that’s, again, where the spontaneity comes into the picture rather than being so stuck in our old ways. And I’m also thinking from this aspect, there must be a skill that is timeless or that can kind of allow us to evolve. What do you think that skill is that everyone should possess, regardless of profession?
Ling Ling 31:01
Cheryl, would you like to go first?
Cheryl 31:05
Sure, I would also love to hear Kai Xin’s thoughts on this as well. I think this is, yeah, this is a very interesting question, right? Because I think when you ask this question about the one skill that can help us evolve- It’s a very tricky question because the way humans have evolved has helped us to optimise for survival, but not for happiness. So if we are talking about the one skill that everyone should learn, for evolution, would be for survival, then I think we are social creatures, creatures that need emotional connection, learning to get to know people learning to be resourceful. And connecting with as many people as possible, I think, is very important, because there’s no person who could go into the world alone and survive it, I think. But if I’m thinking about the skill that one shouldn’t have to optimise for happiness, it should be learning to be compassionate and like be skillful and emotionally self-regulating, think that’s the one skill that can help people to go through the ups and downs and uncertainties that life can bring to us. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Ling Ling 32:08
Actually, it’s really, really hard to pick that one skill. The one thing that came really strongly into my mind is mindfulness. And I know this comes from my own meditation practice. But I see how mindfulness has changed my life in many ways. And it can also help in whatever profession you’re in, not just in your life in your profession. Because there are so many benefits. And there are a lot of studies about mindfulness. It can help you reduce stress, bring clarity to your mind, it could help balance your emotions. And we need all of this in the workplace. So when you practice mindfulness, you have clarity of mind. So when you make decisions, you know that the decision you make is not clouded by your own emotions, of fear of anger, of jealousy, or envy, you know, you’re doing it out of clarity of your mind, and in consideration of what’s going on in the environment, what’s going on with other people, and so on. If you practice mindfulness, and you’re working on a task, be it a work task or a daily task. With that clarity of mind and clarity of motion, you can put your focus on the task, to make sure that there are fewer errors and that every action you take is more intentional. And you know, those intentions come from either a place of goodness, sincerity, of compassion or out of ignorance. When you’re mindful, you are very, very clear on why you do what you do. That’s one.
Also, with mindfulness, when it comes to social connections, you become a lot more present with the other person, you acknowledge them, and you’re more open to their perspective to understand what their thoughts are, what their feelings are, in doing so you build a greater connection with the other person, build a better relationship, and encourage, you know, greater compassion for each other. So I think the overall skill, one must have is mindfulness.
Kai Xin 34:47
I really like both perspectives, because you can have one without the other, you can be really resourceful and survive on the planet. But if it is, without compassion is without mindfulness, then what for it will just be such a tough and chaotic life. For me, what came to mind was reflection and critical thinking, I can make up my mind which one is more, but it’s worth the, with the concept of constantly looking beyond the surface and to also taking on the thought that our life is filled with hypotheses. It’s like doing research, right? We shouldn’t go out there just to prove ourselves right. But we should prove ourselves wrong, and take on healthy challenges so that we can constantly improve and evolve. And that’s where, again, the theme of this episode. I think it’s daring to be spontaneous. to go a different path, I think that’s where we see new possibilities, we find new solutions, rather than what is presented in front of us or to us. Yeah, so I think it requires a lot of contemplation and critical thinking, to see what’s beyond.
Cheryl 35:16
I do see a connection between what everyone says, I think it’s packaged in different words, and different probably techniques as well. But I think it all leads to one thing, which is basically increasing the connection to oneself. Right?
Ling Ling 35:28
I think it all boils back to ourselves, right? We must be aware of who we are, what we are and how we operate in the world. And who we are also impacts the people around us and the environment, too. So it’s the interaction between the environment and the self, we can see what’s outside in the world, but if we don’t know what’s happening on the inside, how do you know whether what you do has an impact or not? Or whether it impacts people in ways that are not so great. So it’s that interaction of the inner and outer.
Kai Xin 35:57
Like a feedback loop? Yeah, I know, some philosophers would say our worldview is shaped because of our social interaction. So yeah, that’s beautiful. So to wrap up the episode, as we’re coming to the end, for listeners who maybe are at a crossroads, and if they feel stuck, they’re not so sure whether they should move forward with an unconventional path, or what to do if they don’t know want to do, do you have some advice in how they can get unstuck and lean into curiosity?
Ling Ling 36:29
So if you’re stuck, it’s okay to be stuck. Because it’s a normal experience. Everyone goes through it. In some time of their life, we make decisions all the time. And the level of stuckness can be different, different times if I could use that word stuck in this. So you do what you can do, like based on Kai Xin’s question much earlier about what if everyone’s persuading you to do something else, and but your heart says, oh, I need to do this, there are some practical things you can do. So some of the practical things you can do is come up with a contingency plan. If what you decided doesn’t work, what is the alternative, you can also come up with an exit plan? If you face something that’s really entirely unexpected, how you’re going to exit it with minimal damage? That’s another thing you can do.
You can also think of listing out why is this path really important to you, and share it with your loved ones, because they come from a place of fear. And they worry that if you take a path that is unknown, that is untested, that you will face challenges or difficulties, and they will have to be involved too. So if you show why this is really, really important to you, then perhaps you can persuade them to support you. So that’s another way of of doing this. But if you’ve not reached that level of persuading your loved one, for me, it’s like it’s okay to be stuck. That’s fine. When the time is right, the answer will appear.
Cheryl 38:05
I mean, there’s a perfect answer already. I just wanted to maybe just add on a little bit, not a completely new point here. But I think really leaning on the theme of not sure, or like uncertainty where you know, you think that you’re feeling like this is the worst job in its worst situation. But you never know what happens, right? Moving could be better, not moving could also be better. So really just allowing that gap and space of uncertainty because life is very gray. And I think our world view for good or for worse is always very black and white. But if we are able to start, you know, leaning into the grayness of it and finding the beauty there just allowing it to unfold, and evolve.
Kai Xin 38:47
Well. I do agree, quite similar sentiments. I think it’s the perception around uncertainty and not sure- it comes with fear most times, and I find it personally helpful to get out of my head. Because a lot of times when I feel stuck I’m using not sure in a negative way. What if I do this? Or what if I didn’t do that? And then I’ll come up with 10,000 different reasons why I should and shouldn’t do and I’m like, Oh no, I’m stuck. So which one! Then weighing the pros and cons just makes it worse. So I find getting out of my head to just do one thing can help me feel like I’m progressing, and that in itself makes me feel I’m less stuck. And then slowly I pick up momentum, I get more clarity speaking with people who can be a sounding board, offering different perspectives. And once I consolidate all my data, I feel like okay, I have a contingency plan. I have this set-out, I have both certainty and uncertainty then I would take that bold step. And then whatever comes along the way I’ll just take it with grace.
Ling Ling 39:47
Sorry. I wanted to add something based on what you shared because it reminded me of a Buddhist philosophy that’s been drilled into me over and over again, which is that everything is impermanent. So even though you have this emotional sense of certainty, yes, this is the path I’m on, or yes, this is the path that I don’t want to take, or whatever. It’s based on the information and data that we have at this point in time. We cannot predict the future we didn’t. Two years ago, we didn’t know COVID will happen and all of our plans changed. There are things in the environment and things in the universe that will happen beyond your control, and it will make you consider other things. So everything is not permanent. And your need for certainty and security comes from our deep-seated emotions for survival, for being secure, for being safe. So it taps onto what Cheryl shared earlier that it’s okay to be uncertain. It’s just part of how we are built as human beings. But also know that life is uncertain anyway, it’s great anyway, we cannot predict anything. So it’s also okay. Do what you need to do. Talk to people, and make plans.
Cheryl 41:02
Yeah, I really, I really love your sharing today Ling Ling because I feel that you have a very balanced worldview that is both very harmonious with, you know, just the openness to the outcomes that come to you, but also not leaning to the extreme of like, you know, just letting go of everything, and just let’s see, whatever happened. You still have that pragmatism, and, the practicality of planning, you know, being very rational about things, which I feel is a very beautiful and harmonious way to view the world and its uncertainty. So I really enjoy this episode. And I hope like, by the end of our podcasts, our listeners, also, you know, along with us in this conversation, feel at least comfortable that they don’t have to know 100% of what they do in life, and have a little bit of the clear steps from the insights that you share on how to feel less unstuck or the stuckedness as you used, and to be able to find that balance in certainty and uncertainty as well. So yeah, thank you very much for joining us in this episode.
Ling Ling 42:02
Thank you so much, both of you for inviting me onto your show. It’s been so much fun speaking to both of you.
Kai Xin 42:08
Thank you once again for tuning in. If you know of someone who could benefit from the perspective shot in this episode, do hit the share button. Let them know that it’s okay to not have everything figured out in life. Have a general plan, but also allow space to let the unexpected unfold. You can also join our telegram channel and share your perspectives about this topic. In the next episode, we will be learning about how to cultivate a mindset of abundance to get what we want in life. Till then, may you meet with the causes and conditions to fulfill all your meaningful aspirations. And may you stay happy and wise.
About Ling Ling
Ling is a seasoned learning and development professional, a former electronics engineer, and is transitioning into cultural psychology. Ling’s career spans a variety of areas including manufacturing, travel, humanitarianism, and education. Since 2005, she has facilitated and delivered programs in 21 countries across four continents. Eventually, she founded Culture Spark Global, a learning and development company focused on developing intercultural skills for an inclusive and equitable world.
Originally from Malaysia, Ling lived in Australia, Canada, the USA, Singapore, the UK, and Serbia and currently resides in Portugal.
Ling has an MSc in Psychology from the University of Hertfordshire, UK, and currently pursuing an MPsy in Intercultural Relations in Portugal. She is a member of the British Psychology Society, International Association of Cross-Cultural Psychology, and International Council of Psychologists.
Previously, she hosted a popular podcast called Leaders of Learning. Currently, she writes on her personal blog Miss Elle Tea about anything and everything that tickles her curiosity.
Daily, she learns Ashtanga yoga and practices Vipassana.
