TLDR: Ever had a deep conversation when time flew by and you connected wholeheartedly with your confidante? Oddly, time froze and you were fully present. How can we create conditions for such conversations to occur?
The Challenge:
Alas, why is a heartfelt conversation hard in the first place? These days, our attention span has been altered crazily by social media. Instagram Reels & Tik Tok reward our brains with shots of dopamine whenever we get a comment or like. Groovy music or snappy videos serve us a fresh shot every day.
It is no wonder a deep conversation is hard to come by — a social treasure waiting to be discovered. We can learn to steer conversations deeper rather than staring at our screens.
Here are four subtle ways to create deeper conversations within your social circles or even Dhamma youth groups! These are methods borrowed from people wiser than me!
1. Ask Better Questions
We were taught to avoid the ‘weather talk’, to avoid politics, and religion (sharing Dhamma anyone?). Does this mean we talk about neutral and bland topics?
Tim Ferris, an American entrepreneur who does awesome podcasts about self-growth, begs to differ. He interviews people from all walks of life and asks them deep questions that seem superficial.
Those simple questions lead to deep lessons and conversations with the individual. Questions like ‘How has a failure, or apparent failure, set you up for later success? Do you have a favourite failure’ of yours?’ or ‘In the last five years, what new belief, behaviour, or habit has most improved your life?’ or ‘What is the book (or books) you’ve given most as a gift, and why?’
Why are these questions ‘better’?
These questions are not too broad (e.g. ‘how are you doing?’), which makes the speaker reach out for an equally broad answer like ‘Been busy’ or ‘Been fine’. They are also not too piercingly direct, which erodes the conversation’s psychological safety (e.g. ‘How has your marriage failure affected you?’).
Tim’s questions give guardrails for the speaker to reply and also the space to steer the question into comfortable grounds.
This process boils down to the quality of empathy – the ability to think from that person’s perspective and find a middle ground question that makes them feel safe and open.
Tying these questions to the person’s most recent happenings can help you add flavour to your soup of questions. Context matters! For example, if it is a festive season such as Vesak Day or Christmas, you might want to phrase the ‘book’ question (mentioned above) as ‘Oh Vesak/Christmas is coming up. What books would you recommend giving people in the spirit of this giving season?’
Contextualising our questions nudges us towards having a true interest in the other and avoids the ‘risk’ of creating a checklist conversation.
2. Make writers, not witnesses
It is never about what happened to anyone we speak to. How they experience their lives is what makes the conversation insightful. Asking better questions is just one part of the puzzle; making your speakers do more than a recitation of their week is another.
Use open-ended questions like ‘How was it like to be the first…’ or ‘How did you manage to cope with…’ to keep the conversation centred on your speaker. Follow up on their stories by asking your friends or family members about their perspective of the event in retrospect.
This conversation technique gives the person an opportunity to add a new layer of emotion and even transform that pain into a lesson of wisdom and love. The conversation then allows them to write and rewrite their experiences.
3. Don’t fear pauses
If we are listening to respond rather than to understand our speakers, we can be afraid of silent pauses. Pauses can be dreadful in a conversation where we talk to impress. When we are unable to elucidate a response at that moment, we fear that we may have just said junk.
If we perceive pauses as mindful breaks to settle back in the present moment, we give ourselves time to internalise what has been discussed.
There is no rush. There is nowhere else to be.
What can help us through pauses, is to dig deeper into what has been discussed. One can use phrases like ‘Oh yes, you mention that xxx means xxx for you. What brings you to that conclusion?’.
These questions help to replace our fear of pauses with curiosity about a person’s stance on different topics. Our focus shifts from ‘I have to say something smart’ to ‘Oh wow, what led this person to think this way’. When we have that level of curiosity, our fear of silence diminishes.
4. Smile at disagreements
The opposite of silence, some might argue, is disagreement. People can disagree on topics that are personal to you. The other may say Buddhists are just ‘idol worshippers‘ or ‘Meditation is useless’. What do you do?
That is where the mindfulness & metta practice gets into play. We acknowledge that there is a disagreement and then find ways to understand how that person arrived at his/her/their evaluation.
Remember, once you see yourself or your identity as under attack, you arrive at suffering-land.
Hence, it is critical to remain calm when your opinions are challenged. It is okay to say ‘I am not comfortable discussing that right now’ rather than to engage in a battle of shouting views.
Adar Cohen, a renowned mediator, brings the term ‘gem-statements’ into the art of conversation. When both parties have done their best to listen and be empathetic, someone unearths the priceless gem. It is usually one to two short and powerful statements. The statements should be a genuine expression of your feelings and have a strong, positive, and meaningful impact on the other person.
These are some gem-statements that you can bring to your next ‘disagreement’:
‘We kept on fighting because none of us is willing to walk away from this friendship. That’s something.’
‘Even when we can’t agree on how to take care (of your) uncle’s health, I’ve never doubted your good intentions. I know you want the best for him’
This gem-statement lights the way around a compromise or towards a solution.
Deeper Conversations ahead!
There are way more subtle ways to have deeper conversations than the four tips highlighted here. However, grasping these four methods right will help you to get started in becoming a subtly deep conversationalist. May you find that deep moment of clarity and precious insights in your next conversations.
Wise steps:
Better questions are crucial in starting conversations, memorise some of them and try them next time
Remember ‘Writers & not witnesses’, get someone to share their emotions and experiences and not the key points of their event
Don’t be afraid of pauses in your conversations. Treat them as a mindful pause to recollect and refill your empathy jar
Find gem-statements, one to two empathetic and impactful lines, in difficult conversations. Be ready to walk away if it is too much!
To compare those who are in the position of a jack of all trades to someone who is specialised, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you fail at climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water.
Kai Xin 00:17
Hey, friends, this is Kai Xin and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddha’s wisdom for a happier life. Do you feel average, average in a sense that you’re good at a bit of this and a bit of that, but not great at anything in particular? And when you look at people who ‘made it in life’, people who have figured it all out, people who are celebrated for their expertise, does that makes you question your life? What do I really want? Am I meant to be doing what I’m doing right now? Should I be doing something else? And the more you ask these existential questions, the more stuck you feel. But what if you’re meant to be good at a little bit of everything? And what if not having a clear plan about the future is completely okay. And that’s what we’ll be exploring in this episode.
Kai Xin 01:26
Cheryl and I chat with Ling Ling, who was an engineer, a trainer who has a Master of Science in Psychology, and now back to being a student. A jack of all trades, some would call her, and she’s perfectly happy being that. It is the combination of courage and curiosity that made her walk the nonlinear path with joy. And this episode, we uncover the balance between having a plan and being spontaneous. Knowing what to do when we’re at a crossroad and the clear steps of how to get unstuck in life, you also get an inside view of how to answer this classic question from a job recruiter. Where do you see yourself in three to five years time? Stick to the end of the episode to hear all of our candid answers to the questions. Now, let’s dive right in.
Kai Xin 02:22
It’s so good to have you Ling Ling join us on this episode. And I believe we can all learn from your very unconventional path and wonderful experience. So today, we have our co-host Cheryl and myself to ask you some tough questions that might get a little personal.
Ling Ling 02:37
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Kai Xin 02:39
Maybe you can share with the listeners. If you were to choose between planning and being spontaneous, which would you choose?
Ling Ling 02:49
Actually, I believe it’s good to be comfortable with both, to be able to plan for things, and to be spontaneous because there are times in life when you need to do the planning, and there are certain times in life when being spontaneous is far better. So to give a personal experience in 2008, which is around the Asian financial or the global financial crisis, it was after some years of working as an engineer and a technical trainer, I decided to switch careers from being an engineer to a psychologist. So in order to become a psychologist, I decided to take my first master’s programme in psychology in the UK. And this particular master’s programme is special because it is designed specifically for people from other careers who want to join psychology field, it’s called a conversion programme.
Ling Ling 03:39
The plan was that at the onset of the financial crisis, after graduation, the financial crisis would be over. And I would then be able to find work in the field of psychology after graduation because in the past, when there was a financial crisis, or there was a recession, it usually takes about a year or two years to turn around. And the programme itself was about two years ago, so I figured, okay, once I graduate, I can surely find something in psychology. But as it turns out, the 2008 financial crisis lasted much, much longer, and it didn’t work out that way. After graduating from my master’s programme, it took me more than a year to find actual work, it was so so difficult to find work in the UK at that time. And not only that, I faced discrimination, I was running out of savings, I worked odd jobs to survive. And at that time, after almost a year of trying to look for work, I really didn’t know what to do. I hit the lowest period of my life. It came to a point where I only had less than 100 pounds in my bank account. And I wasn’t too sure whether I should remain in the UK in order to continue to look for work in psychology or to return back to Malaysia (because I’m from Malaysia.)
Ling Ling 04:56
So at this lowest period of my life I was feeling so stuck. I was feeling really anxious. I didn’t know what to do. But this spontaneous idea that came to mind to go on a meditation retreat. I don’t know why meditation retreat, but I needed to go on one. And I needed to make sure that as much as possible, this could be like a really cheap retreat or a free retreat, if possible because I only had so much money in my account. But thank goodness, we had Google that time. And from Google, it brought me to a website called Goenka Vipassana, and they had like a centre in the UK called Dhammadippa, which is fantastic, because they had a 10 day silent retreat in the countryside of the UK, and it’s entirely donation based. So it’s up to me how much I want to donate at the end of the 10 days retreat, and they provide your own room, as well as food, which is fantastic. Also, with a little bit of searching and a little bit of luck, I found a bus company that was able to provide bus tickets for one pound each way- one pound to get there on one pound to return. So I thought, okay, yes, this is fated for me, I gotta go to this silent meditation retreat. And this retreat introduced me to Vipassana meditation. So Vipassana is a Pali word, meaning insight. So in translation, it’s called Insight meditation. So basically, Insight Meditation is the training of the mind to observe bodily sensations as well as the content of the mind. Because I was introduced to this meditation technique, it really changed my life totally, like, from that moment on.
Ling Ling 06:47
My life gradually became calmer, and more balanced. And even though I’ve met different challenges in life afterward, I had greater confidence to face them and overcome them. So there was that act of spontaneity, allowing the universe or the life to show you paths, so your choices, but also there was that plan of mine, you know, trying to look for work after graduation. So there are times when we need both planning and spontaneity. And you also have to remember that, when you planned plans do not rarely turned out as planned. Because as we grew up, we were taught to plan the days or years of our life. But when we are so focused on our plan, we lose our ability to be spontaneous. And when you’re spontaneous, their incomes, all the other things that are wonderful to like, seeing different connections, being creative, having more fun and having more play in your life. When we’re not spontaneous, we also cut ourselves off from serendipitous moments, all these coincidental connections, meeting random people who could be the best friends or the love of your life, or you could see things in your environment that give you quiet signs that point you down a different direction in life that could probably give you greater happiness, greater love, greater joy.
So to me, you need to be able to plan of course, because that’s how things move forward. You need to complete tasks to meet deadlines, but you also need spontaneity to be able to broaden your mind, bring more fun and creativity, and so on. I hope that answers your question.
Cheryl 08:28
Yeah, I think that definitely answers the question. And I think it’s a very nice balance also because when you’re planning you’re giving yourself direction. And when you’re being spontaneous, you’re not forcing yourself to the stuck kind of outcome that you want. You’re allowing, you know, the world to open up to you meeting new people, like you say, you know, in the beautiful word that you used serendipitously. Serendipity. Yeah. And I was just wondering like so you said after the vipassana retreat, you felt more calm and more balanced? And did you feel like you shifted your personality or worldview in the sense that you became leaning more towards spontaneity? Or are you still you know, kind of very stuck in the middle of like planning and spontaneity?
Ling Ling 09:16
It was a drastic change. It was a gradual change because what the retreat taught me is that it is a daily practice. It’s not something where you know, you take a pill, you change overnight. If you stop practising it, you lose the balance of your mind. I don’t lean towards either planning or spontaneity. I use my own life experiences, as well as gut feeling and wisdom, which is better. For example, right now I’m doing my second master’s programme. I’m studying the psychology of intercultural relations. And of course, I cannot be spontaneous in my data collection, and spontaneous when I feel like writing I actually have to sit down and come up with a plan. And how many articles do I read this week and how many notes do I need to write because otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to meet the deadline. But in between those times, because I’m doing this Master’s course, in Portugal, I would also like to explore and experience what life is like in Portugal, so I need to create or plan spontaneous moments where I can go out and understand the culture, meet different people and just experience what Portuguese life has, you know, presents itself to me. Yeah. So you can plan spontaneity, and you can be spontaneous and your plans too, like me suddenly deciding to come to Portugal to do my second master’s programme. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Kai Xin 10:44
I really liked that. I also have a personal experience, actually, all my life, I realised none of my plans go according to plan. Like, I wanted to go to university. In the end, I started a business and because of starting a business, I have more flexibility in time, then I also went on retreats, and meet really great teachers who have changed my life. And yeah, I think it’s really about keeping an open mind to have an overall sense of direction. But at the same time, don’t be too close-minded such that we lose sight of opportunities that are just right in front of us, and meeting you was serendipitous as well because it was my one and a half months trip to Amaravati, which is in the UK that I met a Thai friend, who then became your friend, and then she connected us. If I’m not spontaneous, and you are not spontaneous, we wouldn’t have this competition. So I really liked that it allow things to unfold by themselves.
Ling Ling 11:37
Precisely that is an excellent example, Kai Xin, seeing the way we both connected.
Kai Xin 11:43
Like Steve Jobs said, you can only connect the dots backward. And I’m also wondering, you know, in today’s society, especially when you go to interviews, people would ask, or interviewers would ask, Cheryl is a recruiter, I’m not so sure whether she asked this question, what would you do in three to five years time? And I suppose that that question has the intention of really understanding whether a person or the potential hire, the candidate has clarity in terms of their career, trajectory, etc. But some people just don’t know. Like, I could tell you five years ago, that I have a particular plan for what I wanted to do five years later, which is now. But has it happened? Not quite yet. So I’m wondering, what is your opinion on this? Did you know what you wanted to do in five to 10 years’ time? And how do you sit with the idea of not knowing?
Ling Ling 12:35
The easy answer is I don’t really know, we cannot predict the future. And I think recruiters deep down, they also know this, but they ask it anyway, just to get a sense of whether this person has their own challenge, has like a career planning and stuff. But I also want to hear from Cheryl.
Cheryl 12:55
No, so the fun thing is, I will usually reject people who give me a perfect answer on what exactly they’re gonna do in five years because that shows that they could be very stuck, and they are not open to adapting to different challenges or different situations. So it’s actually a trick question. You need to have, you know, like, the kind of direction but also you need to have the humility to say that you don’t know and, and you are open to it, but people who are very structured, and this is exactly what I’m gonna do, and I’m like, okay, bye.
Kai Xin 13:22
So I’m quite curious here, like, what would be an acceptable answer? Because if people just say, I don’t know, it can come across as you don’t have your life sorted out.
Cheryl 13:33
I think it’s the way they answer. Sorry, this question is for Ling Ling but just I’m just stealing the spotlight here.
Ling Ling 13:39
I’m curious to find out what the thoughts of a recruiter so if I apply for a job, and I get that, I get that question, and I know how to answer it.
Cheryl 13:49
Yeah, it’s how you answer the I don’t know, right? Because I don’t know could be I don’t know. And I don’t care that that is a huge red flag that this person doesn’t have the kind of zest for learning or self-improvement. But if it’s I don’t know, but I’ve done things, you know, I’ve had the courage to try different things, then that is definitely an acceptable answer, because who gets things right all the time, and companies can’t succeed when they only hire people who have done things the way they have done it before. There will not be innovation and creativity and challenging the industry to be to the next level.
Kai Xin 14:22
I really like what you say about the courage to try new things and Lingling, I know you’ve tried a lot of new things over many years, and your plans keep changing, right? Could you share with us how you have such courage to try new things or when you’re stuck, you don’t know what to do next? What’s your guiding question or philosophy?
Ling Ling 14:41
Actually, every time my career changes, they are done for many different reasons. So sometimes it’s because okay, this particular career path is not working out for me. I don’t feel joy, going to the office feels like a drag and I could feel my sense of emotional and mental well-being, decreasing. So I know I need to do something. So that one was not so much out of courage, it was more out of necessity. For example, just like everyone else, I was told, from a young age you must get a good degree, you get a good job, then you get a big house, you find someone to marry and have kids. Now, I’ve been told this all of us, we’ve been told this, right? So at a young age, of course, I don’t know what to do. And I was persuaded to do electronics engineering as my bachelor’s degree. I did, I chose that degree because I was really good at mathematics and actually enjoyed mathematics. But maths and engineering are different things, as I found out for my degree, so when I did the job, it, it was okay. But it wasn’t something that gave me joy. It wasn’t something that gave me excitement, it became like a daily routine. And I could slowly feel like if I continued on this daily routine of being on this hamster wheel, a part of me slowly like dying. Maybe that’s too much of a word, but it just feels like I couldn’t be myself anymore.
And then, fortunately, within the department, I was working in engineering, they had after a year as an engineer, they opened three different vacancies. So two of them were manager positions, and one was a training position, an engineering trainer position. At that time, I was still young in my career, I wasn’t so interested in becoming a manager. And I know based on what was being told, I should be a manager, because that should give me more money. But I wasn’t interested, My heart told me yes, training seemed a lot more interesting, I’ll be more excited to do that, compared to being a manager and I followed my gut, I followed my heart I followed where I believe, can give me greater joy. I applied for it, I got it.
It changed my career from being an engineer to one step closer to being a training and development professional. At that time, it was called training and development, it wasn’t yet called learning and development. So through that work, I met so many different people, I had the opportunity to travel internationally to learn from different experts and bring that knowledge back to Malaysia, (I was based in Malaysia at that time,) and train other engineers on all these wonderful things that I’ve learned, all the programmes that I’ve created for them and such. So as I was in that particular role, I did, of course, self-examination and self-reflecting, on why is it this particular job, give me so much joy and excitement as compared to an engineering job, right.
After some reflection, I realised like, I find a lot of excitement and joy, and creativity, when I get to meet people, I get to understand their perspectives, and I get to learn from them. And also to see how their mind works, to see how they behave. So all of that pointed toward psychology. After three years plus of working in this particular role as an engineering trainer, then the financial crisis hit and I thought, “Okay, this will be a fantastic time to switch careers.” It was courage, but it was also out of necessity. And it also felt, right.
Kai Xin 18:19
Yeah. And you turn inwards in order to find what exactly is their motivation. Or it’s not just joy and excitement, but it’s really about connection. It’s about meeting people and learning things. And that is something that you can find anywhere, which I believe is not just our training and development, right? You travel a lot. I believe that’s what makes you travel because you can meet people, also, am I right to assume then?
Ling Ling 18:44
Yeah, so I travel a lot in my life. In my entire life. I lived in eight different countries, Portugal is my country number seven. The other country I lived in was Serbia for a few months last year. And because of this opportunity to live in different cultures, I enjoy learning about different cultures and how people can live very differently, still survive, still find love and happiness, and joy.
Kai Xin 19:11
And now you’re pivoted into cultural intelligence as your study.
Ling Ling 19:17
That’s one of the things that I’m studying. That’s one of the things I’m also training. I’m a cultural intelligence facilitator with the Cultural Intelligence Centre in the US. What I’m studying is called the psychology of intercultural relations. So I study the cultural values and cultures of different groups of people. But what I also study is how different groups of people interact with each other, different ethnicities, different generations different, just different social groups. And when they interact with each other, what comes out of it. So, it points toward issues that we face now, and that we see in the world in terms of racism, sexism, and all forms of discrimination, and prejudice, as a going-to-be psychologist. What is it that I can learn from these experiences? And what is it that I can do to help create a more equitable and inclusive world in our society?
Cheryl 20:14
I really love how you use your experiences and all this knowledge, sort of like you absorb all this and it informs your worldview, and you’re just so curious to learn a little bit more and more. And although I think you’re a little bit hesitant to use the word courage, I feel that courage is an underlying theme that is really driving the way you move. Because speaking from experience, I also understand the complete narrative, right, you know, get the right like finance lawyer doctor kind of degree, and these are the only right degrees you could do. So I was pressured to take accounting as my degree. And all my friends who knew me, like knew my personality, they’re like, Cheryl, you’re going down the wrong path! What are you doing? And at that time, I was very stubborn. I was like, No, I love accounting. It was the only course in my life that made me cry every single day.
I couldn’t get it and I hated it and was just like, What am I doing here? Yeah, so then I switch out also, after that, to psychology as well. And I think from experiences, really courage, because it’s something where everyone around you is not doing, it seems like you’re almost like a failure, right? You know, everyone’s continuing with whatever degree chasing whatever managerial role they’re doing. Whereas you’re kind of like taking a step back and starting from scratch and doing something else. So, you know, in these kinds of situations seems like almost everyone is against you, right? How do you still like, or what do you use to help you make decisions going forward? And how do you still like, convince yourself that, okay, this is the right way to, you know, you turn and go with something else?
Ling Ling 21:49
It can be really hard when your, especially your loved ones don’t support your work. But the thought process that I go through and make this decision is asking myself this question, what is the alternative? And is the alternative better than the possibility of the option that’s presented in front of me or not? So the alternative would be always likely staying on the same path, which I’ve already tried, and I already know that no matter what I do, in my control, maybe it couldn’t be any better because I’ve tried everything that I could, right? And then there there are these other options that are presented in front of me? And then I think to myself, will these options be worse or better than where I am now?
Cheryl 21:49
But you can never know for sure.
Ling Ling 21:52
No, you never know for sure. So you can come up with different pros and cons lists, you could talk to a whole bunch of people, you can talk to those who have been in their careers and such. But the truth is, we’re all emotional beings. We make decisions based on our emotions, no matter how much we try to patch it up or cushion it with facts and pros and cons list and whatever not. So I remember watching this movie, I think it’s called the Second Best Marigold Exotic Hotel or something like that. And there’s a particular scene in the movie, Maggie Smith, a British actress was in a taxi and was complaining to the taxi driver, right. And she was in a conundrum, she couldn’t figure out what to decide. So the taxi driver says, flip a coin, have the coin decide for you? And then she was like, why flip a coin? And he says, Well, you will already know the answer before the coin lands. So if you’re really truly honest with yourself, you actually know the answer already. And you know, if you go against your true answer within yourself, you’re not giving yourself the opportunity to live your life to self actualise. And if you do not know the answer and if you’re not very sure whether to trust your inner answer, it’s also okay. It’s fine. Just stay where you are. You don’t have to make a decision. And when the right pieces or the right information or the right time falls into place, you will know with great certainty Yes, this I need to go. I need to do this. Otherwise, the alternative will be I’m going to spend 20-30 years thinking what if what if, what if, what if what if, and that is just as painful as trying and failing. Or even more.
Kai Xin 24:21
Personally, I find it helpful to then balance the spontaneous as well as the certainty part here because sometimes when everyone around you are trying to dissuade you from following your heart, if you don’t have a very convincing reason, you wouldn’t be able to deny the adults with much conviction and it wouldn’t be very persuasive. Right? So then we waver. So I guess that’s where planning becomes important because it’s not just all about following our heart and you know, living a carefree life, we want to care we want to plan and it has to be practical. So you know we have to feed ourselves financially, be stable, etc. Not just quit my job because I don’t like et cetera, and live in this very distorted worldview, and I know perhaps a lot of times people are doubtful about our decision to switch path, especially in the Asian context, once you enter maybe secondary school and you choose your specialisation, pretty much your path is set. And it seems like you know, a little bit of everything, but you’re not good at one thing. And when people ask me, “So what do you specialise in? Or what’s your trade? Oh, I’m not sure I’m kind of a little bit good at everything. And I think that’s where it can impair our confidence as well. So I’m going to move into the next theme. And both of you can chime in on what your thoughts are. Do you feel that it is actually okay to be a Jack of all trades? Or do you feel that it’s better to master one domain and be the subject matter expert?
Ling Ling 25:53
Actually, I think it’s really unfair to pit jack of all trades with specialisation to make such comparison because I think you’re really comparing a Durian to a rambutan. I mean, some people like rambutan, some people like durian, right? Because a specialisation requires a specific set of skills, a specific set of knowledge, it’s the same with Jack of all trades, because they have the ability to see connections in different areas. And those connections, bring out creativity bring out innovation, and they require the ability to be flexible and adaptable in different situations. So I think to compare them both is really unfair, and those who are in the position of a jack of all trades, and being compared to a specialisation, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you know, you fail, at like climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water. So if you’re a jack of all trades, and you’re being told, okay, you’re not so good enough in this, be confident in your own skills and your own experience to say yes, I’m not good enough in this one specific area.
But I’m good enough to know, that this specific area can connect to other areas, which can bring out something a lot more beautiful, or something more creative, or something more innovative, whatever that is. So an example could be let me think, okay, currently, I’m in academia. And I’m surrounded by people who are really, really fantastic in their research, they’re very detailed in the way that they review journals. And they look at that data and analysis and come up with wonderful findings. But they don’t have the skills, or they don’t have the experiences to share this knowledge in public. So public speaking is something that they’re not particularly experienced in. Whereas like, I’ve also been connected with public speakers, and they’re really great and telling stories and sharing inspiration. But behind those stories, there’s like, where’s the data? Where’s the science? So you can like, I have a little bit of both, I do public speaking, because I’ve been a trainer and a facilitator all this life, but now my interest is moving towards research because I wanted to make sure whatever I share with the world has a scientific basis behind it. So, you can tell me, yes, I’m not the best public speaker, I’m not the best researcher. But with these two skills, I can do something that a pure researcher cannot do, or a pure public speaker cannot do. So it’s not fair, I think to make that comparison.
Cheryl 28:25
Yeah. And I think it’s also really about the self-awareness of knowing what you can bring to the table, what strengths you have, or what weaknesses you have, and really owning that in a sense of, okay, I know I’m really good in my data analytics, and you know, wherever you go, or whatever space you go into, really add value in there, instead of trying to constantly like, look out, oh, I suck at like, public speaking, I shouldn’t be here and like, stuff like that. And I think my perspective comes from in school, I was really into sports, and I was very curious about all sorts of sports, I would play badminton then and after that switch, and then pick up squash, and now there’s, like, volleyball, and then I’ll kind of be just like meh in everything. I was like, I want to try the next new sport out there. And I always compare like, wow they’re so good at basketball! How do they do it? So it always came from a place of inferiority and competition, like within myself, but then I think as time evolved, and as I grew, I realised, it is really about valuing the curiosity that I have for learning new things and going through the rigour of picking up things from scratch, instead of just deepening myself in just one area. So yeah, I think this question can be looked at from different perspectives also, in terms of valuing what you have.
Kai Xin 29:34
Yeah, and I know sometimes it can seem that we are fickle-minded. If we keep trying out new things people wouldn’t see us as curious people would just like make up your mind, what do you want to do? And Jack of all trades has a very bad reputation. But there are more research studies that show actually having general knowledge can give you an added advantage because I mean, especially in the career space As right things are moving so quickly. In the past, let’s say if both of you were stuck in engineering and accounting, it might be completely obsolete in the next 20 years. So if you don’t have the soft skills, you don’t have skills like psychology, asking the questions for the facilitation, probably connecting the dots will be a little bit challenging. Cheryl I know, as a recruiter, probably you’ve also seen trends, right, that technical role now also has to understand some non-tech stuff and possess some of these skill sets. So I really like how both of you brought in the point that it’s not really about either, or, it’s really, what can you offer and constantly evolve, that’s, again, where the spontaneity comes into the picture rather than being so stuck in our old ways. And I’m also thinking from this aspect, there must be a skill that is timeless or that can kind of allow us to evolve. What do you think that skill is that everyone should possess, regardless of profession?
Ling Ling 31:01
Cheryl, would you like to go first?
Cheryl 31:05
Sure, I would also love to hear Kai Xin’s thoughts on this as well. I think this is, yeah, this is a very interesting question, right? Because I think when you ask this question about the one skill that can help us evolve- It’s a very tricky question because the way humans have evolved has helped us to optimise for survival, but not for happiness. So if we are talking about the one skill that everyone should learn, for evolution, would be for survival, then I think we are social creatures, creatures that need emotional connection, learning to get to know people learning to be resourceful. And connecting with as many people as possible, I think, is very important, because there’s no person who could go into the world alone and survive it, I think. But if I’m thinking about the skill that one shouldn’t have to optimise for happiness, it should be learning to be compassionate and like be skillful and emotionally self-regulating, think that’s the one skill that can help people to go through the ups and downs and uncertainties that life can bring to us. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Ling Ling 32:08
Actually, it’s really, really hard to pick that one skill. The one thing that came really strongly into my mind is mindfulness. And I know this comes from my own meditation practice. But I see how mindfulness has changed my life in many ways. And it can also help in whatever profession you’re in, not just in your life in your profession. Because there are so many benefits. And there are a lot of studies about mindfulness. It can help you reduce stress, bring clarity to your mind, it could help balance your emotions. And we need all of this in the workplace. So when you practice mindfulness, you have clarity of mind. So when you make decisions, you know that the decision you make is not clouded by your own emotions, of fear of anger, of jealousy, or envy, you know, you’re doing it out of clarity of your mind, and in consideration of what’s going on in the environment, what’s going on with other people, and so on. If you practice mindfulness, and you’re working on a task, be it a work task or a daily task. With that clarity of mind and clarity of motion, you can put your focus on the task, to make sure that there are fewer errors and that every action you take is more intentional. And you know, those intentions come from either a place of goodness, sincerity, of compassion or out of ignorance. When you’re mindful, you are very, very clear on why you do what you do. That’s one.
Also, with mindfulness, when it comes to social connections, you become a lot more present with the other person, you acknowledge them, and you’re more open to their perspective to understand what their thoughts are, what their feelings are, in doing so you build a greater connection with the other person, build a better relationship, and encourage, you know, greater compassion for each other. So I think the overall skill, one must have is mindfulness.
Kai Xin 34:47
I really like both perspectives, because you can have one without the other, you can be really resourceful and survive on the planet. But if it is, without compassion is without mindfulness, then what for it will just be such a tough and chaotic life. For me, what came to mind was reflection and critical thinking, I can make up my mind which one is more, but it’s worth the, with the concept of constantly looking beyond the surface and to also taking on the thought that our life is filled with hypotheses. It’s like doing research, right? We shouldn’t go out there just to prove ourselves right. But we should prove ourselves wrong, and take on healthy challenges so that we can constantly improve and evolve. And that’s where, again, the theme of this episode. I think it’s daring to be spontaneous. to go a different path, I think that’s where we see new possibilities, we find new solutions, rather than what is presented in front of us or to us. Yeah, so I think it requires a lot of contemplation and critical thinking, to see what’s beyond.
Cheryl 35:16
I do see a connection between what everyone says, I think it’s packaged in different words, and different probably techniques as well. But I think it all leads to one thing, which is basically increasing the connection to oneself. Right?
Ling Ling 35:28
I think it all boils back to ourselves, right? We must be aware of who we are, what we are and how we operate in the world. And who we are also impacts the people around us and the environment, too. So it’s the interaction between the environment and the self, we can see what’s outside in the world, but if we don’t know what’s happening on the inside, how do you know whether what you do has an impact or not? Or whether it impacts people in ways that are not so great. So it’s that interaction of the inner and outer.
Kai Xin 35:57
Like a feedback loop? Yeah, I know, some philosophers would say our worldview is shaped because of our social interaction. So yeah, that’s beautiful. So to wrap up the episode, as we’re coming to the end, for listeners who maybe are at a crossroads, and if they feel stuck, they’re not so sure whether they should move forward with an unconventional path, or what to do if they don’t know want to do, do you have some advice in how they can get unstuck and lean into curiosity?
Ling Ling 36:29
So if you’re stuck, it’s okay to be stuck. Because it’s a normal experience. Everyone goes through it. In some time of their life, we make decisions all the time. And the level of stuckness can be different, different times if I could use that word stuck in this. So you do what you can do, like based on Kai Xin’s question much earlier about what if everyone’s persuading you to do something else, and but your heart says, oh, I need to do this, there are some practical things you can do. So some of the practical things you can do is come up with a contingency plan. If what you decided doesn’t work, what is the alternative, you can also come up with an exit plan? If you face something that’s really entirely unexpected, how you’re going to exit it with minimal damage? That’s another thing you can do.
You can also think of listing out why is this path really important to you, and share it with your loved ones, because they come from a place of fear. And they worry that if you take a path that is unknown, that is untested, that you will face challenges or difficulties, and they will have to be involved too. So if you show why this is really, really important to you, then perhaps you can persuade them to support you. So that’s another way of of doing this. But if you’ve not reached that level of persuading your loved one, for me, it’s like it’s okay to be stuck. That’s fine. When the time is right, the answer will appear.
Cheryl 38:05
I mean, there’s a perfect answer already. I just wanted to maybe just add on a little bit, not a completely new point here. But I think really leaning on the theme of not sure, or like uncertainty where you know, you think that you’re feeling like this is the worst job in its worst situation. But you never know what happens, right? Moving could be better, not moving could also be better. So really just allowing that gap and space of uncertainty because life is very gray. And I think our world view for good or for worse is always very black and white. But if we are able to start, you know, leaning into the grayness of it and finding the beauty there just allowing it to unfold, and evolve.
Kai Xin 38:47
Well. I do agree, quite similar sentiments. I think it’s the perception around uncertainty and not sure- it comes with fear most times, and I find it personally helpful to get out of my head. Because a lot of times when I feel stuck I’m using not sure in a negative way. What if I do this? Or what if I didn’t do that? And then I’ll come up with 10,000 different reasons why I should and shouldn’t do and I’m like, Oh no, I’m stuck. So which one! Then weighing the pros and cons just makes it worse. So I find getting out of my head to just do one thing can help me feel like I’m progressing, and that in itself makes me feel I’m less stuck. And then slowly I pick up momentum, I get more clarity speaking with people who can be a sounding board, offering different perspectives. And once I consolidate all my data, I feel like okay, I have a contingency plan. I have this set-out, I have both certainty and uncertainty then I would take that bold step. And then whatever comes along the way I’ll just take it with grace.
Ling Ling 39:47
Sorry. I wanted to add something based on what you shared because it reminded me of a Buddhist philosophy that’s been drilled into me over and over again, which is that everything is impermanent. So even though you have this emotional sense of certainty, yes, this is the path I’m on, or yes, this is the path that I don’t want to take, or whatever. It’s based on the information and data that we have at this point in time. We cannot predict the future we didn’t. Two years ago, we didn’t know COVID will happen and all of our plans changed. There are things in the environment and things in the universe that will happen beyond your control, and it will make you consider other things. So everything is not permanent. And your need for certainty and security comes from our deep-seated emotions for survival, for being secure, for being safe. So it taps onto what Cheryl shared earlier that it’s okay to be uncertain. It’s just part of how we are built as human beings. But also know that life is uncertain anyway, it’s great anyway, we cannot predict anything. So it’s also okay. Do what you need to do. Talk to people, and make plans.
Cheryl 41:02
Yeah, I really, I really love your sharing today Ling Ling because I feel that you have a very balanced worldview that is both very harmonious with, you know, just the openness to the outcomes that come to you, but also not leaning to the extreme of like, you know, just letting go of everything, and just let’s see, whatever happened. You still have that pragmatism, and, the practicality of planning, you know, being very rational about things, which I feel is a very beautiful and harmonious way to view the world and its uncertainty. So I really enjoy this episode. And I hope like, by the end of our podcasts, our listeners, also, you know, along with us in this conversation, feel at least comfortable that they don’t have to know 100% of what they do in life, and have a little bit of the clear steps from the insights that you share on how to feel less unstuck or the stuckedness as you used, and to be able to find that balance in certainty and uncertainty as well. So yeah, thank you very much for joining us in this episode.
Ling Ling 42:02
Thank you so much, both of you for inviting me onto your show. It’s been so much fun speaking to both of you.
Kai Xin 42:08
Thank you once again for tuning in. If you know of someone who could benefit from the perspective shot in this episode, do hit the share button. Let them know that it’s okay to not have everything figured out in life. Have a general plan, but also allow space to let the unexpected unfold. You can also join our telegram channel and share your perspectives about this topic. In the next episode, we will be learning about how to cultivate a mindset of abundance to get what we want in life. Till then, may you meet with the causes and conditions to fulfill all your meaningful aspirations. And may you stay happy and wise.
About Ling Ling
Ling is a seasoned learning and development professional, a former electronics engineer, and is transitioning into cultural psychology. Ling’s career spans a variety of areas including manufacturing, travel, humanitarianism, and education. Since 2005, she has facilitated and delivered programs in 21 countries across four continents. Eventually, she founded Culture Spark Global, a learning and development company focused on developing intercultural skills for an inclusive and equitable world.
Originally from Malaysia, Ling lived in Australia, Canada, the USA, Singapore, the UK, and Serbia and currently resides in Portugal.
Ling has an MSc in Psychology from the University of Hertfordshire, UK, and currently pursuing an MPsy in Intercultural Relations in Portugal. She is a member of the British Psychology Society, International Association of Cross-Cultural Psychology, and International Council of Psychologists.
Previously, she hosted a popular podcast called Leaders of Learning. Currently, she writes on her personal blog Miss Elle Tea about anything and everything that tickles her curiosity.
Daily, she learns Ashtanga yoga and practices Vipassana.
TLDR: I intended to have a mindful, focused, wholesome trip alone to London. It wasn’t. I remind myself to remain compassionate towards myself. From hyde park to a seedy-looking pizza shop, what can we learn about our minds and self-critic?
Introduction
I deliberated for a long time whether to write this article. My recent solo trip to London was supposed to be a mindful, productive work trip, where I would focus on starting my new job, have lots of me-time for meditation, eat healthy vegetarian food and whatnot.
It was onboarding week for my new job, a company headquartered in London.
The idea was to get to know the people and experience the culture, then return to Singapore where I would be based. My new colleagues promised me I would love London in the summer.
Of course, the more I “craved” to be a “good” Buddhist the “worse” I behaved. Here, I choose to be vulnerable and share my thoughts with you. Like any working young adult, I’d like to manage your expectations and hope you can read on with compassion, for me and for yourself.
Flight to London
With the recent chaos of Heathrow and the airlines, I expected to “suffer” on a long journey, including transits and delays.
“What else could be better than seven plus seven hours of quiet meditation?“ I told myself. I settled in my seat, got comfy with the blanket, pillow and prayed no one would occupy the two empty seats next to me.
When a little girl of about three years old hopped in right next to me, I thought, “oh there goes my peace for the whole night!” I could feel myself getting agitated as she chirped excitedly, playing with her toy and poking at cartoon characters on the inflight screen. I was aware of these unskillful thoughts, which didn’t serve me at that moment.
Her mum fussed over the girl: she made sure the water bottle was filled, her daughter’s blanket was ready, her documents were kept etc. I noticed that her mum looked exhausted with a messy bun; her fringe all over her face. In contrast with her mother’s tender weariness, the little girl was beaming in a cute purple unicorn sweater; her hair braided nicely like a princess.
“Papa will be waiting for us in London, you sleep well tonight on the plane and you can see him tomorrow!“
As we took off, I looked at the scared little girl, quietly holding her mother’s hand. My gaze grew softer, and with compassion, I saw her as a little angel. It turned out she slept through the flight like a beautiful darling.
Our thoughts are powerful, they shape our perspective and evoke powerful emotions. So, how can we control our thoughts? The Vitakkasaṇṭhānasutta addresses the topic of “How to Stop Thinking”.
The Buddha told monks “They should examine the drawbacks of those thoughts: ‘So these thoughts are unskillful, they’re blameworthy, and they result in suffering.’ As they do so, those bad thoughts are given up and come to an end. Their mind becomes stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samādhi.”
Hyde Park
I arrived in London in the morning after the long overnight flights. After navigating through the crazy Heathrow chaos, I made it to my hotel in central London. I felt fresh enough to walk through Hyde park to my new office. Hopefully, I could show up on the first day as fresh and upbeat as I could after the long flight. To my surprise it was drizzling, grey, chilly and in general miserable.
“Who told me this is glorious London in summer?!”
I tried to remind myself that the rain and cold are impermanent. The sky will clear up. With mindfulness in every step, I continued walking against the cold wind.
“An ally is what I need right now for support, a kalyāṇa-mitta(Pali word for an admirable spiritual friend),” I thought.
In the Mitta Sutta, the Buddha said “Monks, a friend endowed with seven qualities is worth associating with. Which seven? He gives what is hard to give. He does what is hard to do. He endures what is hard to endure. He reveals his secrets to you. He keeps your secrets. When misfortunes strike, he doesn’t abandon you. When you’re down & out, he doesn’t look down on you. A friend endowed with these seven qualities is worth associating with.”
And so I FaceTimed a friend, who virtually accompanied me on my walk through the cold.
That drizzle turned out to be the only rain I encountered throughout my week in London. The rest of the trip was filled with glorious, glorious summer sunshine. The rain is always temporary at Wimbledon, the British say. The misery is always impermanent and will pass.
Pizza shop
I found myself stranded in a slightly dodgy part of town with my phone battery dying. I was struggling to figure out the tube lines back to my hotel.
“I deserve some kindness from someone! After all, I’d recently made a sizable donation to a charity.” However, at the back of my mind, I knew that “Charitable actions undertaken to gain a good reputation are also selfish and hence not a very valuable kind of giving. Nor can it be praiseworthy when one gives merely to return a favour or in expectation of a reward.”
I surveyed the four shops across the road and chose three more decent-looking ones to borrow a phone charger. All of them turned me down.
By then I was getting desperate and decided to try the last of the four shops: a seedy-looking pizza shop, the type where football hooligans hung out.
The pizza guy at the counter had a broken tooth and a crooked smile. Surprisingly, he passed me a white iPhone cable! And so I stood there for 20 minutes, never ordering a pizza yet making a new friend. He was from Romania, always cracking jokes and smiling with the pizzas. He said he has a chain that looks similar to my necklace.
Kindness and compassion come in all forms, sometimes unexpectedly. The judgement also comes in all forms, almost always subconsciously.
Loneliness
I usually enjoy my me-time very much, with the freedom of choosing what I want to do. However, loneliness struck without warning near the end of my trip.
I vaguely remember Venerable Canda, a nun disciple of famous Ajahn Brahm, speaking about Solitude vs Loneliness. Throughout the week in London, I enjoyed moments of Solitude. As Venerable Canda rightly mentioned, such moments gave me the opportunity to quieten down the senses and the thinking mind. I now understood what she meant by the feeling of having “landed”, in the ‘happy place” with nothing to think about.
There and then, however, I was craving company, someone to share the highlights of the day, the challenges I faced, and the joys of a nice dinner. I craved attention, someone to tell me, “oh you poor thing…” or “you’re doing great!”
It was the loneliness that hits you when you are single and walking through a sea of couples holding hands on Valentine’s Day. It was the jealousy you feel when you see your crush hangout with someone else on Instagram. It was the fear that you are forgotten, you don’t matter to anyone.
As I stood in Soho, one of the busiest London streets, amongst hundreds of people, I felt lonely. This time, I couldn’t call any kalyāṇa-mittas due to the time difference. They were all in bed by this time! I recognised the “I”, the “self” that was so strong there, playing tricks on my mind.
Instinctively, I boarded the bus and the driver smiled. He drove through Soho on the eve of the Pride Parade, with rainbow lights and flags everywhere. I closed my eyes and remembered what love feels like, what freedom to love feels like, what love for other beings feels like.
“May all beings be happy. May I be happy.”
Returning home
As I look back on my short solo trip, I realised I was being very hard on myself. I wanted to be the perfect Buddhist, which meant the “judge” in me was constantly judging my unskillful thoughts and actions.
I had forgotten to pat myself on the shoulder, to give myself a hug whenever I needed one. There were small successes that I should have celebrated a little more. After all, I had an amazing onboarding workwise, met lovely people throughout the week, and made it back home safe and sound.
At this moment, I have a new-found confidence, one that allows me to navigate this new phase of my life, just like how I navigated the tube lines alone in London.
As Ajahn Brahm said, “Worrying never stops bad things from happening, but it stops you from enjoying the present moment.” Let us remind ourselves not to overreact to stressful situations or overthink about life!
Special Thanks: Deep gratitude to the HOL team, especially Xuan who encouraged me to write this article, and the wonderful Yi Shan for editing it. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
When I see life and death very close up, because of my work in emergency medicine, that I’m unable as a doctor, to cure death. And then I sort of wake up. Oh, the Buddha has cured death, the Buddha has understood death.
Kai Xin 00:28
Hey friends, this is Kai Xin, and you’re listening to the Handful of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
What does it mean to cure death?
In this episode, we speak to Dr Ng Yuen Yen, a retired emergency doctor and veteran Buddhist teacher, to learn more about the gradual path to the end of suffering or what Buddhists call the Deathless or Nibbana.
Nibbana. We all heard of it but do we really know it? Is it for everyone? Is it attainable? Is it even worth pursuing?
This episode attempts to unpack Nibbana and shares a balanced approach on how we can slowly increase our happiness here and now. Dr Ng also shares her inspiring journey as a Buddhist and the turning point that deepened her inspiration to practice Buddhism urgently in this life.
Tune in to learn more in this practical and insightful episode, and you may just never look at clouds and pebbles the same way again 😉
Kai Xin 1:41
Hi. So happy to have you here, Dr. Ng. Today we are going to talk about a really big topic on the burner. And I can’t think of anyone better than you. You came highly recommended by one of the Dhamma teachers, Sister Sylvia. And perhaps we can start off this podcast episode by you sharing a little bit more about yourself and how you got in touch with the Dhamma.
Dr Ng 2:10
I’m born into a Buddhist family, I’m very fortunate, that from a very young age, I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism. And when I was very young, I remembered feeling extremely happy in a temple, especially when devotees were chanting the Amitabha or chant and then circumambulating the temple. My mother also taught us to memorise the Heart Sutra, and then to copy the Heart Sutra, and to recite it often, but I didn’t really understand it when I’m young. But now with exposure to the Dhamma practice, I appreciate it very, very much. And I think the discipline learnt from my elder siblings, (I’m the youngest), helped me to restrain myself. So I learned how to restrain and I studied very well. So the family setting was very conducive to the practice.
Dr Ng 03:25
Eventually, when I was older, I took up medicine. And then subsequently, after my postgraduate degree in emergency medicine, I had more time to explore. And that’s when I get into meditation, and I find it fascinating. The exploration of the mind and the body. So, then I got hook. After that, my friends said to me, “Hey, you cannot just meditate all the time, you must have some academic background.” And that’s when I did the Diploma in Buddhist Studies, Bachelor of Arts and Honours at the Mangala Vihara Buddhists Pali College. Because we were the new batch, the principal, the late Bhante Gnanarama, requested both Sylvia and myself to teach. So I have taught for about 18 years in Mangala Vihara. Initially, because there are very few teachers, I taught the BA students even, but subsequently, I taught the diploma students, because I feel it’s very important, for the foundation of the Dhamma to be laid, and understood. So that from a foundation, you can venture elsewhere and be discerning. So this is my Dhamma journey.
Dr Ng 04:53
I’m 67 years old already, and I’ve retired at 61. So although retired, I’m still busy managing my family, elderly siblings, which are very grateful to, for all the help and guidance that they have given me when I was younger. I love the Dhamma and I try to practice the Dhamma daily, moment by moment, and I have enjoyed the Dhamma, I find that Dhamma is so wonderful, because it is what the Buddha has said – that it will help you to reduce and remove your suffering. What is the most important to reduce suffering is to have happiness. So then you will get to enjoy the happiness of the nature of what is the truth of the Dhamma. So this is my journey. And I’m very fortunate to be able to have the time to explore the depths of the Dhamma.
Kai Xin 05:41
Wow, seems like, you’ve come a long way since young until now. 67 still learning and teaching. I’m wondering, for the concept of nibbana, that’s the core of Buddhism. And I believe it’s also the goal that Buddhists are trying to strive towards. Is there a change in your understanding of what it is when you first started out learning Buddhism and now?
Dr Ng 06:29
Oh, when I first started learning Buddhism, I was more intrigued with meditation. It is later on when I was taught about mindfulness of death. And mindfulness of death that life is uncertain. And that death is certain. And I see life and death very close up, because I work in emergency medicine. Even I’m unable as a doctor, to cure death. And at this time, that woke me up to the realisation that Buddha has cured death, the Buddha has understood death, and I have to understand that for myself. The Buddha understood, the Buddha understood, but it’s not me. So I felt very strongly that I have to understand death. And I then sort of understood that why the Buddha, whenever he see these four sights, he got this urgency, to practice. The four sights are to see an old man, to see a sick man, to see a dead man. And then these are the signs to remind us, that we have to practice. Because as long as we are born, we will grow old, every moment we grow old, and we will face with sickness, like this COVID thing. And we will face death, like there were so many deaths. And if we do not know the answer, then we go round and round.
Dr Ng 08:21
So initially, it was just an interesting adventure. Then later on, when I understood more, then I find the urgency to practice, to know the Dhamma for myself, that I then turn the goal towards the end of suffering. And that’s the same goal, same goal as Nibbana. So my goals have changed from beginning. And then now, in my later years, this goal is gradual. If you want it so much, it becomes an obstacle. It is just like what the Buddhists say, neither hurrying, neither carrying, the energy is just nice, just middle path. Neither going to self indulgence, nor going to self mortification, neither indulging in pleasure, nor averse to displeasure. When you are on the middle path, you’re on the Noble Eightfold Path, then it will help you end the suffering, and then you’ll see the happiness that he described. You may have glimpses of it, and that will reinforce the practice, and that you continue to walk this path.
Kai Xin 09:52
I just have goosebumps when you talk about your experience. Earlier on, you mentioned that, as a doctor, you realise that you cannot cure death. I think it resonated a lot with me, because I was also thinking about, you know, what’s the best occupation on Earth? A Doctor seems to be a very noble occupation. But it seems like no matter how much research and development with a medicine and new intervention, there will always be new diseases, new viruses, and there’s no end to this suffering, right. And that’s also when I realised that the actually the most noble occupation, is to realise the Dhamma and then to spread wisdom. It’s just like what you’re doing right now, because Nibbana is the Deathless.
Kai Xin 10:42
For listeners who might not necessarily understand what Nibbana is. Can you unpack a little bit about why you say the Buddha can cure death?
Dr Ng 10:53
He taught us Nibbana as the far shore, and in that far shore, there is also called a deathless, ageless, birthless. Where there is no more arising of lust, of desires, no more arising of hatred, or ill will, no more arising of delusion, all these three roots of existence have been destroyed. Nibbana, the Buddha defined as the unconditioned. So this destruction means there will be no more rebirth, he says in the Mahaparanibbana. This is the last birth, or he says, “this person will not be seen by me again, because he will not be in the cycle of Samsara anymore.”
Kai Xin 11:57
Samsara meaning birth and death.
Dr Ng 12:00
Yes, yes, Samsara is birth and death. In the realms of existence, the realms of existence ranges from the hell, to the highest heaven, and there is birth and death of animals. Then there’s birth and death of human beings. But there is another dimension, where there are hell beings, and there are ghost realm beings. And lastly, there are the heavenly beings, but all these beings in existence, arise and die, arise and die. As long as they arise, they will suffer, even in the heavens, they suffer. Even the richest man on Earth will also suffer.
Kai Xin 12:50
When you say that the Buddha is able to cure them, from my understanding and your description, it seems like one can be free from the cycles of birth and death. And by that it is also being free from ill will, being free from hatred and delusion. Does it mean that a person needs to believe in birth and death and different realms in order to strive towards their freedom of suffering towards nibbana?
Dr Ng 13:21
We do not need to die to see the different realms of existence. We see people going through hell when they are suffering. When they move from warzone, they go into trucks, they want to run away, and some die in the process. Isn’t that hell? Can you imagine? Having so little food? You’ll be like Hungry Ghost, and you’re with people passing urine and shit in a very small space? Isn’t that hell?
Kai Xin 13:57
Actually, you don’t have to go through warzone also feel like hell sometimes. Right? Yeah. See for example success. There’s always not enough, wanting one after the next. And if we look from a practical day to day standpoint, let’s see if a person wants to be free from suffering. How can one experience that?
Dr Ng 14:23
The Four Noble Truths is that the origin of suffering is craving. If you want ‘things’ so much, you need to have your sense pleasures from your sense objects, then there is no end to luxury items. But if you can be satisfied with just the four basic things, with just shelter, food, water, medicine, if you don’t demand so much, from yourself, wanting this and that, be contented that there’s a roof over your head, that medicine is accessible to you, that you are clothed decently. If you are contented, you can live a very simple life, then you don’t need to run after things to be a slave to your desires. We need to go back to nature, to experience the quiet, the stillness, a walk in the park, looking at the sky, observe the clouds, the trees, smell the roses, there’s a lot of joy in nature. You don’t need the joy from material things, the joy in nature, you can satisfy your being because happiness is free actually.
Kai Xin 15:48
Yeah, actually, sometimes we get there already with all the material gains, but we are still not happy, like you say,the richest man and the woman that can still suffer. Does it mean that a person needs to give up everything in order to be free from suffering? Because I also do understand that the Buddha did say that worldly and material desires or gains, they can bring a form of happiness, but it’s not the most sustainable one.
Dr Ng 16:19
You cannot force, you have to do it gradually. So even you become homeless or renounced oneself, the practice has still to be gradual. It doesn’t mean that once the head is shaved, the robes are worn, that there is no more craving. This craving is in the mind, it is a mind object. The clinging is in the mind. So you don’t have to give up everything, but you have to give up only lust, hatred and delusion- the delusion of that there is a self. Because delusion of a self, will sort of have that “who is to attain. which will be I need to attain.” So, there is an that “I” will need to attain, but you see, all conditioned things are impermanent and impermanent things are suffering, and suffering is non-self. Once you see this, then you would want not to hold on to anything, but this is a gradual path. Also you must remember that renounced beings also may have lots of things. So, the renunciation, direct relinquishing has to be in the mind, and that it doesn’t matter, you do not have these (material things). And then there is the destruction of craving, cessation, dispassion. So, these are the things that the Buddha taught, but you know, you have to be quiet to see the gems at the bottom of the lake. If it is like, muddy up, you can’t see. So, you have to be quiet, then you can see, you have to pay attention.
Dr Ng 18:13
It is attainable, and it is being verified by the Buddha, and the Sangha members who are all human beings. And the Sangha members include, like the stream enterers, like even King Bimbisara, Anandapindika, practising laypeople, so many of them may be stream enterers too. So do not be disheartened. There are like-minded practitioners, they come together, and we encourage each other in that Dhamma practice.
Kai Xin 18:46
So for listeners who are not sure what stream enterer is, is basically you’re kind of dipping your toes in the water of Nibbana. And you can’t unsee the wisdom and there’s no turning back that Nibbana is guaranteed, and from my understanding, it is within seven lifetimes. Is that correct?
Dr Ng 19:05
Yes. Yes. That’s what the teachings say. All right.
Kai Xin 19:11
You mentioned about gradual path, I’m wondering whether you can share your personal experience, about how you realise holding on to impermanence is suffering, and how you slowly relinquished it?
Dr Ng 19:24
Okay, so impermanence is something of the body and of the mind, of all phenomena. And you can always get in touch with impermanence, when you do Anapanasati meditation, when you do breathing in and breathing out. So I would recommend highly, that people practice the 16 steps of Anapanasati. And also practice Satipatthana. So you just read the sutras, it is a line by line guidance. In the first four steps, where you just breathe in and breathe out, the first step breathing in, you know, you’re breathing in long, or breathing out long. The second step is that you’re breathing in, short, or breathing out short, then the third step is to experience the entire breathing in. Eventually, when you look at it (the breathing), it gets calm. When you look at just the breathing in, you can see impermanence. There’s a beginning of the breath, and then the breath itself, and then the process of the breath and then the end of the breathing in. So there is an arising and an ending. So if you can see these three, you see the impermanence, you see the non-self of breathing, is just a condition. And this is very close to yourself, to your being. This requires practice.
Dr Ng 21:09
And then you then go into the foundation of feelings. To see what is the feeling of just breathing in and out. Nothing else just breathing in and out. Not caring about anything in the rest of the world. You will experience the rapture of the body. Breathing in and out, just hear the vibrations of the body, as a body that is just breathing and that is pleasurable in the mind and just experience the mental formations. These mental formation also changes. This bodily formations, and mental formations are impermanent, just like the clouds in the sky, the cloud formation in the sky is impermanent, you look at them as if there’s something substantial. But when you go above the clouds in the plane, you see, there’s nothing, there’s no substance in it at all. Cloud formation, bodily formation, mental formation, empty. And then you see for yourself, day in day out, we all tie the mind to mind objects. This mind objects is not the mind.
Dr Ng 22:34
This mind objects are like the Buddha says in Satipathana. The hindrances is like the pebble that you throw into the mind. But it’s not the mind, the mind as a base has changes. Even in the pleasurable states, it changes. So there’s nothing substantial about it. But of course, experiencing the pleasurable changes is pleasurable. But you also know that these are impermanent, that there is nothing to hold on to, and most importantly, not to be caught up with the mind objects. And the mind objects are what the Buddha has very clearly stated, the mind objects are the hindrances.
Dr Ng 23:22
So you see hindrances such as lust. You throw a pebble of lust into your mind pool, the mind becomes coloured, you can’t see clearly. You throw the pebble of anger into your mind, it boils, you can’t see clearly. If you throw a pebble of doubt, it is muddy, you can’t see clearly. If you throw a pebble of sloth, it is all heavily thick, like algae-infested reed . And then you throw the pebble of restlessness and worry, then that pool, the mind pool, just stripped here and dead and restless, you can’t see the mind for what it is. So these are hindrances. And you have to see for itself, that if you do your practice of focus, you will not be distracted by all this. But you have to see them as mind objects that arise and ceases and it gets liberated, or you get what they call release. So this are things that we see, in the practice, daily, when you walk, you see yourself moving, your activities moving, if you are mindful, your mind is peaceful. If you’re not mindful, you get caught up, your mind is not peaceful. So these are caught up with mind objects.
Kai Xin 24:53
Yeah, I really like how you’ve made it. So simple, right? The gateway to Nibbana is just as simple as with this breath. And by breathing in and out, watching, contemplating, you’re able to see the arising, the ceasing, and so many more. This is something that is very hopeful, because I used to fall into this perception as well, that Nibbana is something that is very far away, that I might not be able to experience and it’s always somewhere else, away from me, and beyond myself. But you have just given examples of how we can contemplate on this daily. And it seems like with all the different examples you have given, Nibbana or the way to attain Nibanna, or to experience it, really starts from stilling the mind. And then once that’s done, I like your analogy of the pebble, you no longer use the pebble to create all the ripple effects. So you clear off the hindrances. You see things clearly as they are and you stop clinging, you stop craving, and that’s where you can really renounce, from a mental level and nothing can cause you to stress despite having external circumstances that can be very chaotic.
Kai Xin 26:11
I’m wondering from your perspective, what would make it worthwhile for people to chase after Nibbana? Because I have heard of people who would feel that Nibbana is not for me, you know, I am okay. Going through life up and down. It makes me feel human to go through sadness to go through anger, and peace is just a little bit too boring.
Dr Ng 28:30
If you suffer enough, if you really suffer mentally, then you want to chase after Nibbana. The Nibbana is defined as the end of craving, destruction of craving, and so we have to practice and to see for ourselves, how craving makes us suffer. And then you will want to end craving, this suffering, because you have to know it for yourself. So sense pleasures, like I want to enjoy life, I want to enjoy life to the maximum, but what is that? What is the enjoyment? That sense pleasure is fleeting. At the end of the life, there may be regrets, and regrets is not what you want. You want to know how to direct your life, to ensure that you did the best you could do in this life. To carry on with just living life, as in enjoying the pleasures of the senses, that is just an ordinary being who doesn’t know the teachings of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and don’t know that he has potential in himself to realise that all this is just a “wah wah game”, it is unstable. It is a charcoal pit that you are let on to it and there’s like a blowing torch, that the wind is blowing at you and the torch is burning. Your world is burning. When you’re sick, you’re burning, for that moment of sense pleasures, you are burning, and the person will be suffering and death is at the door and life is just wasted.
Dr Ng 28:32
But then, you have to walk the middle path. So knowing the gratification, the danger, the escape, one who want to escape from it what more, to realise the full potential of a human being and what the Buddha says that it is possible. So I don’t buy it. That “eat, drink and be merry”, that is not the way.
Kai Xin 29:02
Yeah, I think it does require, like you say, a gradual path in order to realise. It reminded me of the story of Venerable Sariputta. He and his other very good friend, they were at this party, right? So at the top of the hill, they were seeing everyone drinking and be merry. It’s not that they haven’t indulged before, I think it got to a point where they realise that it’s fleeting, and there’s no point. That’s when they went in search for the truth. That was before they met the Buddha. I really hear you in terms of saying it’s only when a person really feels the pinch of suffering, that they will try to find it an answer. So yes, I’m also thinking maybe it’s okay, if a person wants to just go through life, going through the ups and downs, maybe it just isn’t time for that yet. And we can, you know, plant the seeds, cultivate our mindfulness, and rather than taking a big leap to say, “Okay, we have to strive for Nibbana.” But on a day to day basis, how can we just relinquish bit by bit and be slightly happier?” And then eventually, when the time is right, then we would see oh, this is what the Buddha said about Nibbana. And then the roadmap is already presented to us and we are ready to walk the path fully. Yeah, cause I know sometimes people can hear like, oh, Buddhism is very serious, right? I have to give up my sense pleasure, cannot watch TV, you know, cannot go party. Is it wrong?” And I think that view can scare a lot of people away.
Dr Ng 30:34
I think it’s the middle path. Because some people need to destress. So I think some distraction ( I mean, this is their way of destressing) is okay. But you’re gonna have to be very aware of like, where you may over indulge, where you always spend time, on the handphone on certain times. You must be able to regulate and restrain yourself, you must be able to discern what is important in your life. You must put time aside for the practice, sometimes just to be quiet.
Dr Ng 31:14
Of course, when you are stressed, it’s good to ventilate, it’s a way to destress, but you must associate with good people. You must be associated with good friends who wouldn’t like lead you to down an even darker path. You must be with friends who listen to you, and then to encourage you and then to help you navigate back into a less stressful situation. So it is important to have good friends, listen to the Dhamma, pay proper attention. It is gradual. You don’t sort of like, I don’t want this, this become aversive, you might just develop aversion. You cannot force Nibbana, you will suffer because when you force, it is a wanting. So you will see gradually, you learn how to be mindful. And I think it is individual. Because we all wake up at different times, depending on the conditions, if the conditions are right, then it provides you with more time to practice, but I’m just saying extremes, to say that let’s say, you indulge too much, this is the problems you have.
Kai Xin 32:31
So it’s to understand the limitation of sense pleasure, and always knowing that, let’s say if we get too carried away, Nibbana, the gateway to it, is just here and now. It’s not exclusive. It’s available, and it’s also possible to attain. To me I feel that’s very hopeful, and that’s very inspiring. It’s kind of like a home that we can always turn to.
Dr Ng 32:55
Yes, yes. That’s why you take refuge in the Dhamma, the Buddha, the Sangha, and that this Dhamma of Nibbana can be seen. Sandithiko, Akaliko, Ehipassiko, Opanayiko, paccatam veditabo vinnuhiti. If it cannot be seen, if Nibbana cannot be seen, he won’t say this. He says Nibbana can be seen, the end of craving can be seen- by the wise for himself. The journey has to be walked by oneself, and it is very fortunate if you have good friends, to walk on this journey, to encourage you on this path.
Kai Xin 33:41
Definitely. So to be experienced individually by the wise and you know, turning inwards. Thank you so much for all your sharing. I really like how you started the podcast by saying that there is something beyond death and it is possible. It is a gradual path. And you also provided some of the key steps to do it on a daily basis, suvh as anchoring on our breath, and contemplating on impermanence. I think those are very quick action steps that our listeners can take away. Regarding the point on it is possible to experience the Dhamma, we talk about the Triple Gem. So we have the Buddha, his teachings, the Dhamma and the Sangha. It is precisely because there are disciples and there are individuals who saw the Dhamma, realise what the Buddha realised, that we have the third jewel, which is the Sangha, and there are enlightened beings around the world. And they’re just like, testimonies and role model for us to look up to and say that, hey, if they can do it, we can also do it. And how we go about it, of course, is at our own pace, and based on our own causes and condition. So I just wanted to end off with that. And any last words from you, Dr.Ng? No. All right. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Dr Ng 34:59
Thank you for inviting me. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu!
Kai Xin 35:11
And that’s a wrap for this episode. My key takeaway is that life is uncertain and only death is certain. If we heedlessly indulge in the pleasures offered in the world through our sight, taste, hearing, touch and smell, we seek refuge in unsatisfactory and unreliable conditions, we may live a life full of suffering and be filled with regrets. The Buddha offered a system and education out of suffering that is achievable and attainable, may we all plant the seeds and conditions for our awakening to a refuge that is beautiful and beyond birth and death.
If you’ve benefited from this episode, do share this episode with a friend and leave us a five star review wherever you’re tuning in to this podcast.
Till the next episode, may you stay happy and wise!
Hey friends, this is Kai Xin, and you’re listening to the Handful of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life. If you’re going through a rough patch, this episode is for you because we’ll be unpacking lots of practical tips to deal with difficult emotions in our lives. Unless we’re saints, whenever we meet with life challenges, negative emotions will inevitably rise to the occasion. Fear, anxiety, sadness, and worry. These are the usual suspects. In fact, these emotions creep into our everyday life in one way or another, and oftentimes make us feel terrible. If you’re like me, you would rather feel positive rather than negative, or you would rather feel happy rather than sad. As a result, we end up running away from these emotions unconsciously or subconsciously and miss the vital lessons they have to teach us.
Kai Xin 01:10
In this episode, we have our special guest, Ratna to share with us how to anchor our life with positivity while mindfully embracing negativity. Ratna is a living example of how best to use one’s vulnerability as a strength. Her personal journey is inspiring. She migrated to Singapore at a young age. She wasn’t proficient in English, and struggled with low self-esteemed. Then, during a public speaking engagement, she blanked out and froze. That’s pretty traumatic and totally crushed her confidence. But she picked herself up. And today, she is an esteemed coach in mindfulness and public speaking, and has even become a TEDx Speaker! Ratna is truly an inspiration and I’m thankful to have witnessed her rise in popularity and success over the last decade. Want to know how she did it? Tune in to the full episode. Right now, she is truly an inspiration. And I’m so thankful to have witnessed her rise in popularity and success over the last decade. Want to know how she did it? Tune in to the full episode as she shares how to use positivity as a superpower, and how to leverage negative emotions for growth. Finally, the ABC guide to dealing with difficult emotions. Now, let’s jump right in.
Cheryl 02:32
To kick things off, Ratna, what is your superpower?
Ratna 02:36
My superpower is positivity. I strive to have optimistic outlook in life. As much as possible, for my friends and family I try to offer them genuine encouragements and also at the same time making people feel a bit better about themselves. So I think that’s one of the superpower that I have.
Cheryl 03:02
And why do you consider positivity a superpower?
Ratna 03:06
In a world where we have so many negativities we face so many challenges in our life, I think it’s so important to have these qualities of positivity. Not ignoring the negative part of our emotions, but really having the positive thoughts and emotions as an anchor in our life that whenever there are any challenges any thing that we face in our life that may not be favourable, we can always use this qualities to be able to help us navigate challenges and changes in our life.
Kai Xin 03:45
Currently, you’re a mindfulness and wellbeing coach, and I think people can really benefit from your positivity. Can you share a little bit about some recent challenges that you face? And what are some of the steps you took to overcome them?
Ratna 03:59
In fact, for the past few months, navigating the uncertainty of solopreneurship (was challenging). It was just like a lot of things that were going through my mind, from ‘what if’ scenarios where certain things may not go according to my plan, and to like the feelings of fear of choosing the wrong path. Having different expectations from my parents to some family members and facing financial instability as I navigate this solopreneurship myself, it was quite a lot of things happening at the same time. It was kind of overwhelming for me. There were lots of uncomfortable emotionsthat I experienced, from feeling confusion, anxiety, as well as fear. I just felt like “I’m not sure if this is something that I really wanted to do.” At the same time also, there were a lot of things that were not within my control. So it was quite tough to actually go through that period for the past few months There was a time that I couldn’t hold it anymore, so I cried. And I should say it was a good way of releasing my emotions and the tension that is being stored in my body.
Ratna 05:27
For me, I took some time to actually unpack my emotions, and process them sharing this with the people that I trust, they are my mentors, as well as my trusted advisors who have my best interests at heart. So by sharing it with them, and listening to what they have to offer, from their own perspective also helps me to open up a different perspective about things in different ways as well. But at the end of the day, I have to make a decision for myself, and what really helps me a lot was the practice of mindfulness meditation practice, to actually come down my emotions, my thoughts, and it helps me to also quieten down the noise and silencing that inner critic to also bring my attention back to the present moment to really focus on what really matters the most. One more thing that really helps a lot is the journaling practice. So every day, I took some time to basically just journal my thoughts and my feelings kind of like just put my thoughts and feelings on paper, and not to overthink too much. So that really helps a lot in navigating all those uncertain moments that has been happening for the past few months.
Kai Xin 06:51
Wow, thanks for sharing this very vulnerable journey, it’s definitely not easy being a solopreneur. And I hear you mentioned a few things that are helpful, of course, your superpower came in very handy. And then beyond that, it’s also not suppressing it too much. Because to a point when you’re holding back, then you have to release. And after releasing your consult others, and you also notice your inner critic, then you take time to reflect. I’m just trying to expand on this inner critic part a little bit, because I think some people can find it challenging to balance, sometimes we can be overly positive, we call it toxic positivity, where we misjudge the reality, and everything feels like rainbows and sunshine, when actually it’s not. On the other hand, we are overly critical to a point where it’s not constructive. So to you based on your experience, how do you know when to release your emotions and when to hold it back and just be positive?
Ratna 07:48
I think for me, I kind of took quite a bit of guidance from my body. So whenever I feel a certain emotion, will come back to my body and really feel ways this emotion resides in my in my body. By having that, it helps me a lot to release a lot of tension, especially the negative emotions that is being stored in my body. Gounding exercises, such as, the breathing and all that helps me to recalibrate myself to the baseline, in a way not to spiral down into a much one negative emotion. And knowing that whatever I’m experiencing right now might not be really real, like what we thought it is, because our feelings and emotions are sometimes are just guidance or compass to what we are experiencing right now, but still have the power to choose whatever we wanted to experience in our life or whatever we wanted to create, to have a different kind of outcome in whatever situations that we experience as well.
Cheryl 08:56
I really appreciate the fact that you say that our body is a guidance to our emotions, and at the same time you say acknowledge that we have the power to be able to decide how we want to deal with these emotions. And it’s so true, right? Our body holds all our emotions. If we feel stress, we feel it in the stomach area that we feel angry, it’s in the chest area. And once you’re able to learn how to kind of, I think be comfortable or accept the sensation to able to move on. I was wondering if you would be able to maybe share what exercise helped you to be in tune with your body in a way and respond appropriately after that?
Ratna 09:36
I do quite a bit of grounding and breathing practice. For example, if I wanted to relive whatever events that is happening not according to what I expect it to be, and then you will kind of like probably come up with all sorts of emotions that might not be really pleasant. Because of that, then I will ask myself, “Where is this emotions residing in my body?” Sometimes it can be around my shoulders area or my chest area, and I can also feel a tingling sensation in certain parts of my body. When I felt that way, I will take a deep breathing, and then I’ll just release my breathing into the areas where I feel the most tension in my body to help to ease the tension. And one more practice that I also use is to use humming. Basically, I take a deep breath, and as I breathe out, I will hum into that part of my body that feels that tingling sensations or elevated emotions. And other practice that I do is walking in nature. So as I walk it, it really helps me to feeling much more grounded, you know, connecting to the nature, and all that. So it really helps to, in a way, bring that more positive emotions as well.
Kai Xin 11:06
I’m quite curious, what if you do all that, but you still feel very tense?
Ratna 11:09
I think another practice could be sharing it with others as well, like, you know, sometimes by by just sharing it with others. It’s to process our feelings and thoughts, and then having a sounding board helps you to probably give some kind of suggestions or good advice helps to, in a way shift our emotions or feelings into a more empowering one. One of the thing that I also felt was really important is to have self acceptance, because a lot of times when we feel unpleasant emotions, we want to resist it, because we just don’t want to feel it. But the more we resist it, it keeps persisting. What I find it useful is to really acknowledge that, hey, I’m feeling a certain way, I’m feeling anxious, I’m feeling this way, you know. And to label the emotions and observe it as the third party. So not saying that, “Oh, I, I’m angry,” or “I’m, you know, I’m feeling fear, but to distance ourselves with the emotions itself, and looking at it as a third party. I can say, like, you know, I’m experiencing this anxiety in my body, I’m experiencing whatever feelings in my body. By doing that, it kind of like helped us to detach from the emotions and feelings itself.
Kai Xin 12:46
And I think it also goes to show that it’s not always the solution to run away, because I mean, based on experience as well, if I feel very tense, I feel frustrated, I want to meditate it away. And then if I don’t feel that I have become more at ease, I get even more frustrated. So I think it’s kind of a combination of the feelings are signs to tell us that we need to act on it, and it’s also a clue, it’s serving a purpose in telling us what exactly is the underlying cause that I’m feeling frustrated. One thing I also found really interesting from one of the retreats is, oftentimes we get too caught up with the intense sensation. But we can, let’s say in our body, right, we can draw a line and say, “Where does the tense sensation stop?” So if I feel very tight on my shoulder, then I can draw a very tight, they’re getting less and less tight, and probably my fingers are relaxed. And it just opens up possibility that the whole situation isn’t all that bad. There is still some goodness within sight. Personally, I found that to be very helpful.
Ratna 13:53
Yeah, exactly. I do agree with that as well. I always find the self awareness will set us free, you know, when we are being aware of like, hey, this emotions, what is this emotion trying to tell me? It also gives us a clue into what we are feeling what we are feeling right now.
Cheryl 14:11
Just going back to what you shared just now. I think there were two points that caught my attention. I think the first was share with a trusted friend, how you feel and to kind of have a sounding board. I think that is very interesting, because for myself, at least, I tend to close up or isolate if I feel like I’m in a bad space. And the last thing I want to do is, is to show like the super ugly side to my friends. That’s why the second thing that you mentioned about you know, distancing yourself from the emotion and depersonalising it is so powerful because it then takes away some of the shame, or the power of guilt that I’m feeling to just say, “Okay, this is just an experience that I’m having. That is not the whole of me and it’s just a part like, you know, the what Kaixin mentioned as well, it ends. Certain sensations end at a certain part of your body. So I would like to ask how can we make it easier for us to open up and have that courage to reach out to our friends for support when we’re in a very tough space?
Ratna 15:15
For me, instead of keeping it to myself and feeling helpless, not being able to find solutions to the challenges that I face, I might rather reach out to people, especially not to everyone that you probably don’t trust, because you want to ensure that it is a safe space for both of us to really share whatever problems that we have. I think it’s also very important to really choose whoever, people that you wanted to share. And knowing that, you know, they also have our best interests at heart and knowing that they wanted to help us to be in a better space as well.
Kai Xin 16:03
It reminds me of a book called chatter. It’s by this author called Ethan Cross. So you know, we all have those narrative and voice in our head. And in one of the chapters he actually mentioned, it’s so crucial to pick the right friends, because there are some friends, when you confide in them, they will reinforce that negativity. So let’s say if I complain that my boss really is terrible, or my situation is terrible. They’ll say yeah, your situation is terrible. You should blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just makes you feel worse. But I think a good friend is someone who knows when to listen, when to ask the right questions, so that you use that as a way to clear your thoughts or when to just be a sounding board. And yeah, I think it’s really important to reach out.
Ratna 16:48
Yeah, as what Brene Brown said, right, and vulnerability is not weakness, it is actually strength. Because the more we actually share, whatever we experience, with courage,, it actually helps to open up a certain part of us, that helps to heal as well. Take, for example, I’ve always shared one of my biggest challenges in my life, which is my fear of public speaking. When I was young, I was afraid to really share that, but as I get older, and I also have to overcome this traumatic experience I have, I need to slowly open up myself. So, I kind of like started to share my own personal story with a small group of friends. And then of course, I also seek for help, with the practice of mindfulness in managing my speaking anxiety. When I do that, it actually helps me to open up my own personal scars. It’s not comfortable sharing that, but as I open up myself, and when people actually resonate with my own personal stories or struggles, it helps me to heal from within as well, because it’s not that I’m asking for validation, but it helps me to connect with others. I’m sharing this because I’m just a normal human being, you know, who wants to be happy, who wants to be free from suffering. By sharing this personal experience, it helps me to open up myself and heal at the same time. So that really helps a lot for me.
Kai Xin 18:36
I’m wondering where you are now, in your journey of healing.
Ratna 18:40
I think the journey of healing is a never ending journey. It’s always a continuous journey and progress. I will really credit my own personal journey of healing through the practice of mindfulness that has really bring so much courage for me to be able to really face that fear. That is really, quite big to face. Because when I faced that during my teenager days, it was so big to the extent that it literally crushed my self confidence. Yeah. So because of that, I was also looking out for ways to help me rebuild that confidence back and to really face and embrace that fear because it’s something that is so uncomfortable for me.
The practice of mindfulness has helped me a lot in that healing process. So I always call this ABC of mindfulness. The first one is awareness. The awareness part of it is that it helps me to just be aware of the things that I’m afraid of. Knowing that hey, if I keep doing the same thing, keep feeling the fear I’ll end up not being able to really move forward. So, the awareness part really helps me to, opens up that willingness to be able to take the small steps to be able to change my life. In order for me to be able to improve my life for a better, I need to make a change so it helps to open up that self awareness part and take that small little steps to be able to face my fear. Because of that, I started to join a Toastmasters community to be able to help me overcome my fear. And eventually, it slowly built up my confidence as well.
The B part is our balance. It’s really finding the balance between embracing the feelings and emotions itself, not resisting it, but at the same time to also knowing how to take action, despite feeling a certain way. In the early days of my healing journey, the first part of it is to really accept that, “Hey, I feel a certain way because of that past, traumatic experience I had in the past, I’m feeling this way. I know it’s not comfortable, and I wanted to, you know, take the steps to help me improve myself and become a better speaker.” And because of that, and when I came into the acceptance part of it, I slowly move into, taking some steps to actually also help me to to do better. So I do a practice called incantation. So basically incantation is like, you know, reciting an empowering mantras or empowering sentence or whatever it is to help me feel better. For example, “yes, I can!” That also helps me a lot. So I did that quite often during my run in the mornings. As I run, I keep repeating the incantation part of it, that really helps a lot. Yeah, so that’s the second part of it.
And then the third part is curiosity and compassion. So, you know, whenever I felt fear or whatever emotions that I’m feeling that might not be comfortable, it’s always an invitation to kind of like also ask deeper what are these emotions or feelings are trying to tell me. Are there underlying emotions that we are trying to solve right. So, I think that asking, having that curiosity, approaching that emotions with that curious mind also helps to opens up and helping us to be a bit more comfortable with the emotions itself. The last but not least, which is the compassion part is also because a lot of times when we feel when we have friends who is like feeling a bit down, we will have a tendency to kind of like you know, console them and all that. The compassion part of it is also the compassion that we have towards the feelings and emotions that we are experiencing as well. Treating them as a kind friend, you know, like knowing that “hey, I know that these feelings or emotions exist because there is a certain kind of needs needs to be met, right?” So really being a kind friend and having that compassion to really self soothe myself whenever that feelings and emotions appear.
Ratna 18:51
I really love how you share you know, the process of ABC in terms of transforming and healing yourself. But, you know, let’s dig a little bit deeper into facing the demons. Right and going back to the traumatic experiences, where, you know, the inner critic was the winner. So what what are some of the things that you were saying to yourself and how did that in a way suffocate you?
Ratna 24:15
Whenever I felt negative emotions or even that self talk, I’m not good enough. I’m stupid, or or I’m probably not as good as someone else. It makes me feel guilty makes me feel shameful, it makes me not taking action. So whenever I felt that way, right, they always felt disempowered. So I couldn’t, you know, do anything because of that kind of like negative self critics and it was definitely not helping me a lot to improve myself as well.
Kai Xin 24:55
It is like going back to asking how do we find that balance? So if the inner critic is our friend, we use it to get better and improve. But the moment when the inner critic put us down, and we start falling apart and we don’t perform well, we can’t function, then that’s where we have to put a stop to say, hey, what exactly am I doing right here? And I think at the end of the day, whatever anxiety, fear that we are feeling, it’s all trying to protect us in some sense. So it’s having that mindfulness and reminding us over and over again, what is it trying to tell me? How can I make it useful? With regards to Cheryl’s question on how the inner critic has kindled your potential? Now with mindfulness, how did your narrative change?
Ratna 25:45
I think probably in the past, when I experienced failure, I noticed there is like, inner critics that is popping up and all that, it kind of like made me feel, oh it I’m not good enough to do something about it, right. And so it makes me feel afraid of making mistakes and made me small. Yeah. So with mindfulness, it really helps to change the narratives like, “Hey, this is probably something that I’m experiencing currently in my life. But what is this event or situation trying to teach me? What’s great about this? It’s really taking that opportunities to also finding the goodness in whatever I’m experiencing the failures that I’m experiencing right now.
Cheryl 26:35
I think the cool thing that I am taking away here is that the inner critic is not necessarily an enemy, and learning how to befriend it can help you to go towards your goal be it self improvement, or growth in a more skillful manner, right in a way that actually helped propels your journey rather than, you know, just throwing stones at yourself and making your journey a little bit harder. And I think a lot of times, you know, when people approach this topic of inner critic as well, it’s always on the, on the kind of topic of like, an inner critic is negative. Let’s just do away with it, just push it away. But I think there’s value in seeing what is it really trying to inform us and and how can we tap into curiosity, as you’ve mentioned, many times and really get the good value there.
Kai Xin 27:21
Yeah, and I think it does require a lot of self love, not in a sense that, you know, everyone is bad, and then we should just love ourselves and not improve, everything is okay. But I think self love to know when to be kinder, and then when to be tough. And I’m wondering, how do you offer yourself some compassion? Is there any advice you can give to our listeners to do the same for themselves?
Ratna 27:48
We are our own biggest critics, right. And sometimes, you know, we probably beat ourself without realising it. And I think, instead of comparing ourselves with others, it’s also having every comparison in terms of like, our own personal journey, and how much we have grown. It helps us to looking at our own personal journey as like a journey of growth, instead of I am not better, I am not as good as compared to the other person. Yeah. So I think that also helps a lot to give ourselves more loves and self compassion towards our own personal journey to be a better person.
Ratna 28:29
At the same time, self Compassion is like a continuous journey as well, for me is also to understand ourself a lot more better, by also understanding our own personal boundary. What are the things that makes us happy? What are the things that probably doesn’t serve us well, and having the courage to also say no, to the things that don’t serve us? Well, another tip will be taking ourselves less seriously. Because sometimes we take ourselves too seriously, we probably get offended if someone says certain things or have things not meeting our expectations. So I think learning to really take ourselves less seriously and just having fun really helps a lot to also cultivate a self compassion.
Cheryl 29:20
If there’s one question that our listeners can use to reflect on a daily basis, what would that be?
Ratna 29:29
Some of the questions that I use on my daily journaling will be what are two things that I’m grateful for today? The second one is “What are the things that I wanted to let go of today?” That practice really helps me a lot to let go of whatever things that doesn’t serve me because a lot of times, we always think the letting go part is like such a big thing. But I think is that in the daily practice of letting go really helps us to ease a lot of tension as well. And the third one is “what are the things I’m proud of?” It helps us to also remind our own personal growth and milestones every single day. A lot of times we forget to really remind ourselves about what are the things that we have accomplished. Last but not least, is the fourth question that I always ask myself is, what are the things that I wanted to focus on today? So, that really helps me a lot to really focus on what truly matters today. Those are the four questions that I always ask myself every day during my daily journaling.
Kai Xin 30:34
Thank you so much. I thought those are really helpful. And to wrap up, I think we can talk about some of the common themes that we have been discussing, I think it comes back full circle to really identifying what serves us and what doesn’t serve us, whether it’s the voice in our head, or whether is it finding friends so that we can move ahead. Inner critic isn’t all that bad if we use it correctly, and also to not take things too personally to see from a third person’s perspective, so that we don’t feel so much shame. Shame is not ours. Fear is not ours, but it is us who experience it. And those are very transient as well. So thanks a lot for helping us to reframe our mindset to overcome our negative self talk.
Cheryl 31:17
I really love how throughout the episode, sister Ratna always shared about how mindfulness is really the anchor point, and it’s really the foundation in which these transformations and this reframing of perspectives and narratives come from. It’s a good inspiration and a good reminder to always use mindfulness as a foundation, and more importantly, apply to the challenges that you’re facing. And I think with that, we could wrap up today’s episode.
Kai Xin 31:46
Thanks for being here. Thank you. And that’s a wrap for this episode. If you’d like to stay inspired by Ratna, you can follow her on IG or Facebook. Links are in the show notes. And if you’ve benefited from this episode, do share it with your friends and leave us a five star review wherever you’re tuning into this podcast to the next episode. May you stay happy and wise!
