Animals live to eat. What do you live for?

Animals live to eat. What do you live for?

TLDR: Reflect on existence: What truly moves you? What do you live for? Venerable Jian Xin shares her journey from tears to clarity on the path.

A Zen Master’s question that changed Everything

It happened more than twenty years ago. However, the memory is still so vivid that it seems like it happened yesterday. It was more than ten years after I became a Buddhist and I had met with some spiritual setbacks. 

At that point, I was feeling quite disillusioned with my spiritual life, so I took leave from work and attended a seven-day Zen Retreat. The many rounds of sitting and walking meditation greatly calmed my mind.

Soon, it was time for my interview with the Zen Master. I stepped into the room and sat down in front of him. Immediately, I felt enveloped by an immense sense of peace. He looked at me and asked, β€œDo you have any questions?”

I looked at him and shared what had been bothering me for quite some time: β€œZen Master, I have been feeling quite lost. In fact, I have been feeling quite disillusioned with my spiritual life.”

He paused for a few seconds and asked me a question that still seems to ring in my ears today: β€œAnimals live to eat. What do you live for?”

Tears immediately welled up in my eyes. Something deep within me was moved. Tears then began to roll profusely down my cheeks. 

I could not stop them. They were tears of suffering, tears of joy; tears of suppression, tears of freedom; tears of Samsara and yet, tears of awakening.

From confusion to clarity

β€œWhat do I live for?” – This question had been bugging me since I was very young. Finally, I found the answer to my life purpose through the first Buddhist book I read when I was fifteen. 

Through the years, all my major life decisions were centred around my life purpose – decisions regarding my studies, my career, and my relationships.

However, there were a few times when I was misaligned. I am deeply thankful that I would encounter teachers and episodes, like the above-mentioned Zen interview, which would reconnect me with my life purpose.

I remember a Buddhist parable that I read when I was doing my Philosophy studies at university. This parable was quoted by Leo Tolstoy, a Russian writer who is regarded as one of the greatest authors of all time. 

In this piece of writing – β€œA Confession”, he quoted this parable that to him, genuinely revealed human reality. He wrote, β€œAnd this is no fable but the truth, the truth that is irrefutable and intelligible to everyone.”

From honey drops to realisation

This β€œParable Sutra” was related by the Buddha to a king named β€œBrilliance”. Long ago, a man was travelling through the wilderness and was chased by a wild elephant. He fled and came to an empty well.

Dangling into the well was the root of a tree, and he quickly climbed down the root. At the bottom of the well was a poisonous serpent. Two rats, white and black in colour, gnawed at the tree root above him.Β 

A hive in the tree root contained the honey of bees, five drops of which fell into his mouth.

The wilderness symbolises the path of ignorance. The person fleeing is a metaphor for the ordinary man, while the elephant represents impermanence. The well is a metaphor for the shore of Samsara (Cycle of birth, death and rebirth)

The tree root represents life and the two rats gnawing at the root symbolize day and night. The serpent symbolises death and the dripping honey is a metaphor for the five sense desires (sight, sound, smell, taste and touch).

So here we are, wandering in the wilderness of ignorance, fleeing from the elephant of impermanence, clinging to the root of life, knowing that the serpent of death is inevitably awaiting us. 

The rats of day and night are gnawing at our lives. The drops of honey – are they still sweet to you?

Reflecting on Purpose: What Moves You?

Have you thought of your existence and what truly gives you meaning? Personally, aligning with my purpose in life eventually led me to renounce and become a Buddhist nun. 

I cannot think of a better way to live my life meaningfully. 

Back to the episode I mentioned at the beginning – what was it that I reconnected with, deep within me, that brought tears to my eyes? 

The tears were about the suffering of sentient beings in Samsara and also about the bliss of awakening.

Yes, at that moment, I was deeply reconnected with this precious jewel – Bodhicitta, the mind that strives towards Enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings. This is what I am living for.

Animals live to eat. What do you live for?


Wise Steps:

  1. Learn from misalignments, allowing them to guide you back to your life purpose.
  2. Reflect on symbolic parables, like the man in the well, to gain a clearer perspective on life.
  3. Consider renouncing distractions to live a more purposeful and meaningful life.
Ep 36: From Ideas to Impact: Founding Journey of Handful of Leaves

Ep 36: From Ideas to Impact: Founding Journey of Handful of Leaves

Transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl:

Hello, welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. So we will be getting up close and personal with the founders of Handful of Leaves, getting to know their journey with Buddhism, their personal life up and down and to understand why the both of them come together to found HOL.

[00:00:17] Kai Xin:

Hi, I’m Kai Xin. I co-founded HOL with Heng Xuan. I’m an introvert. That’s one thing to know. I run an agency in my day job. This is something that I’m doing on a voluntary basis.

[00:00:29] Heng Xuan:

Hi everyone, my name is Heng Xuan. I work in the finance industry. I did HOL because I felt there was a gap in the Buddhist landscape. So I got Kai Xin into this wild roller coaster to do Handful of Leaves. But a bit more about myself. I enjoy working out daily, just sweating it all out, especially after one tough day of work. That’s about me.

[00:00:47] Cheryl:

I must say, Xuan is everyone’s personal fitness coach. Dragging everyone to the gym and making sure we clock our workout hours in. I think Kai Xin has also been a victim of that. Yes.

[00:00:58] Heng Xuan:

Supporting my team.

[00:01:01] Cheryl:

So, yes, let’s know a little bit more about your journey with Buddhism.

[00:01:06] Heng Xuan:

For me, I started Buddhism, I’m brought up in a family that’s pretty much nominal Buddhist. So it means that at every start of the year, you go to the temple to pray and all of that. And then you just offer joss sticks. And then the temple is very nice, they give you a pencil and ruler.

[00:01:18] Kai Xin:

Okay, yeah, never got that before.

[00:01:20] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, it’s basically to be smart, and hopefully, the ruler helps you pass your exams.

[00:01:24] Kai Xin:

Then why I’m not as smart? I never get a ruler.

[00:01:26] Cheryl:

I thought the ruler was for your parents to whack you.

[00:01:29] Heng Xuan:

I mean, if you don’t study hard, then yeah, it’s a great mechanism there. So for me, growing up a nominal Buddhist, I went to a mission school and then that made me question like, what am I doing? Maybe it’s cooler to join Sunday service and stuff. So I experimented with a lot of different religions. Then came a point when I was 13, and there was a newspaper article advertising this monk, talking about Ghost Month. It was actually this monk called Ajahn Brahm. And I was like, eh, very weird, eh. There’s a Caucasian monk talking about Ghost Month. So, my mother said, you wanna go? Then I was like, just go.

And then I found myself straight away diving into Buddhism, cause there was a group called Buddhist Fellowship Youth. They had bowling, they had singing, karaoke, and as a 13-year-old, I think that was really fun. Going there for the friendship. Then after I started learning Buddhism, I took it off all the way to where I am now.

[00:02:09] Cheryl:

Wow, I love how from a nominal Buddhist, all these little seeds that were planted by the temple, the Ang Mo Monk (Ajahn Brahm), your mom really just brought you into understanding the Dhamma. I’m very curious, what made you dedicated to giving back to Buddhism?

[00:02:23] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, so I started off as a kid that was really impulsive, and also angry at times. Cause I did karate and I will actually try out the different techniques. I will fight with fellow classmates in secondary school and in primary school. I wanted to just charge through life. Everything must go my way. And the Buddha taught that not everything goes your way, right? A lot of things are outside of our control. And that change that I saw in myself improved my relationships with people all around me. And that’s something that I want to bring across to people around the world and help make people’s life really more light, and less dark.

[00:02:55] Cheryl:

And it’s beautiful how it all started from yourself. You noticed the change, and that’s how you wanted to give back to other people. I’m very curious if you had something similar with Xuan as well, in terms of your journey.

[00:03:07] Kai Xin:

Oh for sure. So Xuan was the one who brought me to Buddhism. He’s like my θ΄΅δΊΊ (benefactor), I always say that. Yeah, and Buddhist Fellowship is where I started. We met at an orientation camp in Poly and he’s very good at recruiting. So he’s like, oh you like meditation, right? There’s a retreat coming up. So I’m like sure and what stood out to me was first, I never knew that meditation can be taught. I thought it was just breathing, just sit there, close your eyes. I remember it was a one-day retreat and it felt really good. So I thought there must be something deeper to that.

There were a lot of talks around misconceptions of Buddhism, and it blew my mind because being a nominal Buddhist, my mom and my dad would pray. I would always go to Guan Yin Ma temple at Waterloo Street. I didn’t get a pen and ruler, but I would ask Guan Yin Ma to bless me for good results. Yeah okay lah, can pass. But I realized there’s something more to that.

So when I got to know about the misconception, it blew my mind because I realized that, hey, what I was taught from young, I thought that was Buddhism, but it’s the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, right? Rites and ritual, it is a good form of increasing our faith, but it’s not the thing. It’s really about releasing ourselves from suffering. And then I started volunteering as a youth leader. So again, he recruited me to be a part of the EXCO member. Yeah, just constantly serving. It feels like a crime to not give back because I’ve benefited so much.

[00:04:35] Cheryl:

That’s a very huge statement to make actually.

[00:04:37] Kai Xin:

A crime. Really, really. It’s like you’ve benefited from someone or something and then you see other people who can also benefit from it. And you just turn a blind eye. Like how could you do that, right? The analogy would be if you see a kitten that is injured on the street, are you just gonna walk away? Yeah, so when people ask me for help, then I would say okay. Yeah, sure. Why not? And I don’t see myself doing anything other than serving the Dhamma, it’s like the most meaningful thing that anyone can do, I feel, yeah.

[00:05:11] Cheryl:

Wow, I think it’s interesting you brought up the presentation that Xuan made about the misconceptions about Buddhism because that was when I had an aha moment when Xuan presented that exact same deck. And I actually reached out to say, could I use this presentation and share it with the KL community because it was that impactful. I was like, wow, it really changed my mind as well about what Buddhism is about.

Fun fact as well, I was also introduced to the Buddhist community by Xuan through one of the camps, the Pushing Boundaries Camp. And that’s how I got in touch with all the other communities. So thanks, Xuan!

[00:05:41] Kai Xin:

Another fun fact, Cheryl came all the way from Malaysia to Singapore for the camp, based in Singapore. So really kudos to you, and now you’re residing in Singapore.

[00:05:50] Cheryl:

Yeah. Yeah, awesome. I love how our journeys are all kind of interconnected in some way. All these little seeds are planted. But what brought you guys together to actually work on HOL?

[00:06:03] Kai Xin:

You have to ask the brain behind it.

[00:06:05] Cheryl:

Oh, okay.

[00:06:06] Heng Xuan:

So I think Handful of Leaves is pretty much a COVID baby. We actually talked about many ideas. So over the years, Kai Xin and I did many, many random stuff in the Buddhist community, from selling stickers to selling T-shirts just to make Buddhism cool again. So the start point for Handful of Leaves is actually many years before, but the little thing that pushes you across is COVID. Vesak was coming and there were lots of Buddhist Organizations that were really optimistic that they could still do Vesak Day. So we decided to just curate this directory that allows people to actually seek out where they want to go.

So that is how we actually get the emails. Then after we get the emails, we get the data of how many people visit our website, and how many people go. Then we started to curate, how can we build a resource for people to anchor their practice on. And that’s where we found there’s a huge gap because in the Buddhist world, you will only have the option of Dhamma book or listening to one and a half hours of Dhamma talk and you have no clue what is Kamma, what is Vipaka, all these random Pali words. And we felt that there’s a gap and we said, yeah, let’s do this. Let’s give it a trial. We do user testing and all the funky tech stuff. Yeah, coming together. That’s how we kind of started.

[00:07:15] Cheryl:

And what made you decide to work with him?

[00:07:18] Kai Xin:

Oh, I’m super aligned with the goal and also I feel the urge to fix this problem. So the Vesak directory was kind of like a band-aid, a very short-term solution to a bigger problem, right? Yes, we direct people to different online Vesak events, but what is next? And just now he mentioned Pali words and… Things that are not very relevant or accessible to people at least from a language standpoint or you have to go through maybe pΕ«jā which is chanting, the rituals in order to then get the gem of the teaching some people they don’t even know, what am I chanting? Is this a cult? You know, like what does it sound so foreign? So boring. Yeah. So if we do it in a very traditional way I think the barrier to entry for people to understand the true Teaching is very high. When we were talking about the directory, we said, actually what is bigger than this? Content? We are actually quite lagging behind in terms of the Buddhist scene. We don’t have much content on the net. Even if we have maybe the website would look very 1990s and it really takes a person who is truly seeking to be able to get past that to then uncover the golden nuggets behind it.

So, what Handful of Leaves really stands for is practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life. Because you really want to make it very relevant and accessible to what is happening in the day-to-day challenges that you don’t usually hear of in the temple. Yeah. So, for instance, the taboo subject is premarital sex. Is that a misconduct? Because people feel guilty about it and there are genuine questions around. And I think it is a little bit more tricky for monks and nuns or monastic members to talk about such things or even down to How do you take care of your mental well-being at work, toxic workplaces? So I’m very aligned with that, just like, yeah, sure, let’s do this. And here we are three years later.

[00:09:06] Cheryl:

HOL is like your toddler that’s three years old. Do you think that the problem that you’re trying to solve from when you first started is still the same?

[00:09:13] Heng Xuan:

I would agree that it’s yes and no. We plug the gap. It’s a ship that has many holes and you’re like hammering in one after three years and then you look behind you and there’s more holes to fill.

[00:09:22] Cheryl:

Oh no, it’s like whack a mole where everything keeps coming up. Yeah, correct. Yeah.

[00:09:28] Kai Xin:

So I guess the first hole that we were trying to fix on the ship was how do we get more reach so that people who are truly searching would be able to find us. So we have social media. And people do find us organically on Google as well. Then, the next hole that we are trying to fix right now is, okay, now we are volunteering. It takes a lot of time and also a lot of effort. I mean, you will know because you are doing the podcast with me, right? Like transcribing and stuff. It takes a lot of effort. It’s like a full-time job on its own. Then, it becomes an operational challenge that we have to fix. How can we sustain this in the long run so that the ship can continue to sail?

Then there are more problems. When we engage with our community they start saying, hey, can you talk about this particular topic? You’re like, okay. We are not that experienced about this then what should we do? We invite experts and constantly experimenting with different ways of providing practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.

[00:10:21] Cheryl:

And you agreed with her. Do you want to share more?

[00:10:23] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, so I think the whole idea, why I think that there’s relative success is, we found actually quite a number of individuals finding us through Instagram and then after that beginning their Buddhist journey by joining other Buddhist organizations out there and they’re really actively serving. So to me, that’s very good validation that our funnel works in bringing people into the Dhamma and giving them opportunities to practice.

Where I say that, no, we haven’t achieved that, is because there’s still so much to be done. There are still so many media resources that we can leverage and we just don’t have the bandwidth, or the manpower to actively push for it. Like for example, doing video podcasts like this is like a rarity, right? It’s so hard to get the resources in place. But we know that that will increase our reach. Yeah, so these are the things that we still under-penetrate the markets.

[00:11:10] Cheryl:

Yeah, I think of course there’s a lot more potential for HOL to grow, but don’t underestimate how far you’ve come. Yesterday I was just speaking to a colleague randomly and she’s like, Hey, I know you are doing a podcast. I ran into your podcast. I was like, scanning my brain. Did I tell her? I don’t think so. So I asked her, how did you find it? She said, Oh, I was just looking for mindfulness content and I came across this podcast. And I was like, wow, yeah, SEO. It’s very heartening to know someone that you don’t promote this, just found it and hopefully found it beneficial as well.

[00:11:42] Kai Xin:

And I think it’s also heartening in terms of the impact we create. So some fun facts about how we evolve, right? The visuals that you see on our website and our social media, many of them are created by a volunteer and she started without knowing us. She was a reader of our content and she found it really interesting. And then her friend was like, Hey, you know, they’re looking for volunteer designers. Do you want to sign up? And here she is. I think she’s been volunteering for over a year, right? Yeah, so shout out to You Shan, thank you very much.

[00:12:13] Cheryl:

And I think we have a lot of other examples of readers, listeners who just benefitted from all of the content and they just want to help and want to give back. Very similar to how you all started as well. You all benefitted from it personally and you want to share, yeah.

You have mentioned that you all met each other long ago. So it’s about 13 years? Yeah, so let’s get a bit more personal. Let’s see how well they all really know each other. So these are very basic questions. I will ask something about Heng Xuan that Kai Xin has to answer and Heng Xuan will validate whether it’s correct or not. Very, very basic one. What is Heng Xuan’s favourite colour?

[00:12:52] Kai Xin: Red.

[00:12:53] Heng Xuan: Not bad.

[00:12:54] Cheryl: Okay, correct. And what is Kai Xin’s favorite color?

[00:12:57] Heng Xuan: I think it’s also red.

[00:13:03] Kai Xin: I think I know why. It’s hard to guess because I don’t wear the colour.

[00:13:07] Cheryl: Okay, I’ll give you a hint. It’s something to do with monastic colours.

[00:13:11] Heng Xuan: Oh, okay. Orange.

[00:13:13] Kai Xin: Close. If you dilute it a little bit more.

[00:13:16] Heng Xuan: Yellow?

[00:13:17] Kai Xin: Yes.

[00:13:18] Heng Xuan: Oh wow, that’s like so off. Okay.

[00:13:20] Cheryl: Guys, you’re getting exclusive content here. For the first time in 13 years, Xuan finds out about Kai Xin’s favourite colour. Very good. And next one, what is Heng Xuan’s favourite food?

[00:13:35] Kai Xin: I mean, he’s a vegetarian. I suppose his favourite food will be related to tofu.

[00:13:41] Heng Xuan: Walking Tofu (Xuan’s IG account). I like noodles. It’s very generic. It was supposed to be like very carb-y, yeah.

[00:13:47] Kai Xin: Like tofu noodle?

[00:13:49] Heng Xuan: Tofu noodle? Oh, actually, yeah.

[00:13:50] Kai Xin: Okay, so I’m half correct.

[00:13:52] Cheryl: She’s just trying really hard now. And what about hers?

[00:13:58] Heng Xuan: Wow. Hor Fun.

[00:14:00] Kai Xin: I hate Hor Fun! Oh no, he does not know me! I don’t eat Hor Fun, it makes me nauseous. I only eat it when I’m in the mood.

[00:14:09] Cheryl: Wow! You can’t get more off than that!

[00:14:14] Kai Xin: We only know each other’s working style.

[00:14:19] Heng Xuan: Cuisine, maybe I’ll say Indian food.

[00:14:22] Kai Xin: I love Indian food, but no, that’s not my favourite. It has something to do with the colour, yellow.

[00:14:27] Cheryl: It’s something to do with Thailand as well, let me give you that.

[00:14:30] Heng Xuan: Pad thai.

[00:14:31] Kai Xin: How are yellow and pad thai related? Oh my goodness.

[00:14:34] Cheryl: Okay, before HOL doesn’t exist after this call, I will reveal the answer. Kai Xin’s favourite food is actually mango sticky rice.

[00:14:41] Kai Xin: And it’s also hard to guess because I seldom eat it. For practical reasons, mango sticky rice in Singapore is not nice and it’s really expensive.

[00:14:48] Heng Xuan: It’s high in calories as well, so please watch your waistline.

[00:14:52] Kai Xin: We’re not fat shaming. But it’s okay to indulge moderately.

[00:14:57] Heng Xuan: Don’t get diabetes.

[00:14:59] Cheryl:

Yeah, the fitness guru. Okay, so now let’s move into the second part of this conversation, which will be a little bit more about the challenges and difficulties of running a Handful of Leaves. I think you mentioned it was almost like a full-time job. Why do you dedicate so much time? Where do you find the passion, energy, and drive to run this on top of your day job, other personal commitments, and everything else?

[00:15:28] Heng Xuan:

Well, the short answer is that you don’t have a life. So I feel there’s always a lot of time leakage in our day-to-day life. I’m always very happy to see where I am wasting time, be it on commuting or Instagram and stuff, then that’s where your willpower dies. So these are all the pockets of time you can actually find in your day-to-day life. So that’s one part.

Motivation, I guess, is the fact that there are a lot of people backing us right now on a monthly basis, sponsoring all the different things that we do together. To me, that keeps me going, and the people saying that they appreciate our content. Not that we are just throwing out trashy content, and then the motivation dies very fast. But the fact that people say, hey, this actually touches me where I really needed it right now, then that makes you say, I’ll continue working and serving the people because the happiness of others and peace in others is something that no money can put to it.

[00:16:19] Cheryl:

When you really see the impact there and the lives that you touch, this doesn’t become just numbers. You really remember, wow, these are the people that you have served.

[00:16:27] Kai Xin:

Yeah, quite similar for me as well. It’s in hindsight that I feel, oh wow, the work that I’ve done has touched people. But when I’m doing the work, I don’t really think much, I just do. So it’s pretty much like, if I’m free, I’m doing Dhamma work. It never felt to me like a chore. Unless, perhaps when it gets very, very stressful, when I have too much on my plate, then I would feel like, I need to be doing something else.

But when I’m doing Dhamma work, I just do it, and it feels very fulfilling. I’m actually enjoying the entire process. So it feels very natural for me to find time or time just naturally appears. Over time also when we also hear about success stories and people that we do not know randomly sponsor us items or subscriptions online. You can visit our support page, for as little as $10 per month, then it becomes a different level of motivation because you can’t just do this because you feel like doing it. People truly see the value and you have to live up to that. Maybe that’s also some form of pressure to not want to disappoint people, but it can get unhealthy. So that’s a separate story altogether.

[00:17:36] Cheryl:

We need to hear that.

[00:17:38] Kai Xin:

I was just having a conversation. I’ve not told Heng Xuan about this, but I had a conversation with one of the sisters. We are seriously talking about the future of Handful of Leaves. We are doing this on a voluntary basis, but it almost feels like a full-time job, right? The conditions are now right because our job is relatively stable, it’s not like we have to OT or life is not too stressful. So the conditions are right now. But we’re not so sure what will happen in 2024. So I had this conversation with a sister who’s the mom of the crew behind the camera. I was just sharing with her some of the challenges we might face and that we don’t want to disappoint sponsors because we can’t just slack off and not put in our work when people are trusting us with their money. And she gave a very good piece of advice to say, what makes you think that people are expecting you to do X, Y, and Z just because they have contributed? Maybe they have contributed because they found value in the articles that they read or the content and they say, Hey, let me support. But they don’t think too much about it. This I cannot validate. So if you are a sponsor, please let us know if you have expectations.

But we have been having ongoing discussions about like, we had to be transparent. Let’s create an annual report to show people where the funds are going because we truly care about this. And we want people to care about this together with us. Somebody has to keep us accountable, basically. Yes. Yeah, so I’m not too sure whether that leaks into an unhealthy level of stress or pressure, cause those are assumptions that we make. Yup. I think the turning point is, she kind of questioned, are you sacrificing your life aspiration just because of this assumed expectation that people have? So, that was like… I mean, in our separate lives and including yours as well, we do have things that are going to unfold in 2024 and Handful of Leaves, running this is going to be quite a big consideration when we make those decisions.

[00:19:41] Cheryl:

Yes, I’m processing it because it’s a lot that you have shared and it’s very multifaceted, right? It started out as a project to help people, but then now when you actually have people really benefiting from this and endorsing and supporting this, then it becomes like a lot of burden on you as well. And of course, we are only humans. As much as we can optimize the time leakage, there are times when we can feel stress or burnout as well. I’m wondering if there was a moment in this three-year journey where you felt like HOL was not going to work. I just want to give up.

[00:20:11] Kai Xin:

The first part, yes. Giving up, no. I’m not sure about you.

[00:20:16] Heng Xuan:

I manage the pipelines for the articles, right? So I think there were certain moments where we were two weeks away from having no articles or no content to publish. And those are the moments where you’re like, I think we’re going to die here and run out of content. There are moments, I won’t say give up, but maybe like pull back a bit of production. But then we realized that some people have told me that they actually bookmarked our page. I was just like, cannot give up lah. But it’s also very hard to find articles and find different content angles. So I think for me, I feel it more in the sense of like, wah, want to give up kind of thing. But of course never lah.

[00:20:52] Cheryl:

Luckily, thank you for holding on.

[00:20:54] Kai Xin:

I agree with the latter part. I’ve never thought of giving up because I won’t give up Dhamma. I mean the work will probably manifest itself in a different way, a different way of giving back. But in terms of, it will never work, I think it’s also similar to the pipeline issue because it’s very dependent on our daily commitments, right? So let’s say if I am down, I fell sick and I didn’t batch enough content, then what’s going to happen? It’s not recommended, but… For real, both of us, if we are sick, we’ll still be doing Handful of Leaves work, or like Dhamma work.

[00:21:28] Cheryl:

She was even doing it when she was hospitalized for Rhabdomyolysis.

[00:21:34] Kai Xin:

Yeah, spin class.

[00:21:35] Cheryl:

And she was like (typing sound) in the hospital.

[00:21:38] Kai Xin:

It’s the most conducive environment because you’re on your bed and then food is served. You don’t have to spend time anywhere else.

[00:21:44] Heng Xuan:

But please don’t go to spin class to get Rhabdomyolysis, to get time off work. I don’t recommend it.

[00:21:48] Kai Xin:

Take care of your health.

[00:21:50] Heng Xuan:

Yes, but spin is good.

[00:21:54] Cheryl:

Another endorsement.

[00:21:55] Kai Xin:

I love all these plugs. Not a sponsored ad, just saying.

[00:21:59] Cheryl:

No, but I’m actually very curious because how do you know you’re not pushing yourself to the extreme? Because sometimes when you feel like it’s for the good of a lot of people, I have to do it because I don’t want to let people down as well. But how do you know you are taking care of yourself adequately as well? What is that balance?

[00:22:16] Heng Xuan:

For me, it’s like I try to meditate every day. So I try to meditate twice a day. If I start to meditate once a day, I know, okay, something’s not going as well. You know you’re actually close to pushing yourself over the edge when you actually see a lot of frustration, a lot of anger arise. And because the mindfulness is there, it’s actually able to catch. But once your mindfulness is anemic, it’s weak, then it will not be able to catch the defilements. Then you know you’re actually close to the burnout point already. So I think for me, that’s the telltale sign when you get frustrated at things that wouldn’t usually frustrate you when you’re doing stuff.

[00:22:44] Cheryl:

So TLDR it’s like when you start seeing yourself getting crankier.

[00:22:48] Heng Xuan:

Yeah. When you get cranky and the defilements arise, then you’re like, okay, I’m nearly there so I need to chill.

[00:22:55] Cheryl:

But have other aspects of your life taken a toll as well? ’cause you prioritize Handful of Leaves?

[00:23:01] Heng Xuan:

I don’t know but I still have a very healthy balance. I can cook my own food and I have a very awesome relationship with my wife. So it’s like…

[00:23:09] Kai Xin:

Need to validate.

[00:23:15] Heng Xuan:

So I also have friends, I think.

[00:23:17] Cheryl:

If you’re a friend of Heng Xuan, please like the video.

[00:23:24] Heng Xuan:

Please. Yeah, so I don’t think it has taken a toll. It’s just like trade-offs. I don’t see it as a sacrifice. I see it as a trade-off. Like, if you want to go out with friends every night, you can’t do Handful of Leaves. Confirm. If you wanna travel the world and do a lot of things, very hard to do Handful of Leaves. So yeah, I think these are the trade-offs, but not sacrifice. Trade-off means what you’re giving away to take on something. Sacrifice is like, oh, I give up.

[00:23:45] Cheryl:

Yeah. The trade-off seems to be very intentional. There is a sense of willingness because you know it’s important.

[00:23:50] Kai Xin:

Yeah. That’s something I really admire about you actually. Even though you’re very occupied, right? You always go to the gym, and then you still make time to hang out with Angela, your wife, and then Handful of Leaves, and I don’t know how you still go and meet different people every week even though you’re an introvert and still excel at your day job. For me, it’s actually quite the opposite. So, sometimes… The trade-off would be, that I might be a hermit, I just don’t meet people. Sometimes I can stay in my room for days and just come out for meals. She can validate because we are like housemates.

For me, the yardstick would be in terms of emotion as well. Typically, I’ll feel it in my body, or if I’m really, really tired. So yes, when I was hospitalized, I was still working on Handful of Leaves, but it’s not compromising my health because mentally I was still really clear. It’s just physically I cannot really walk. So if I am diagnosed with a different illness then yeah, I would just take a break and I would tell myself that I don’t have to push myself so hard.

In terms of other things, I think it’s just regulating our energy as well as emotions. And if my negative emotions were to spill over to other people, then that’s where I know sleep is affected. And then I need to re-look at taking a pause and then restarting Handful of Leaves again.

[00:25:07] Cheryl:

Can you share a personal moment in your life where you were going through very difficult times, and it was really a struggle to… Keep going at the pace that you were going.

[00:25:20] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, I don’t think it’s like Handful of Leaves per se. There was a time when I was working in Thailand as a management consultant. I was so tired that actually I walked into a glass wall. And that is actually the moment I knew like working 16 hours a day or 18 hours a day is not sustainable. And I think the way to look at it is to take a break and see if is that something that you really want. These are the moments like, oh, I cannot keep going at this speed. Trying to manage this, trying to manage that.

[00:25:46] Cheryl:

Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:48] Kai Xin:

So this is gonna go very personal. Spilling the tea. I think my romantic relationship is being compromised. I have made a very rather firm decision that I think Dhamma is going to be what I will marry myself to. And people might disagree, but to me from a very logical standpoint when I’m doing Dhamma work and when I’m serving people, the level of value and impact that I can bring is a lot wider. It’s a lot more people rather than just one person. I can choose my life partner, but I can’t choose my family. So I still value family time a lot. I try to make it a point to, even though I’ve moved out, to meet my parents. We go on family trips, et cetera.

But to then make a decision to enter a romantic relationship is something that I’ve always held back on. Cause I feel like if my partner is not going to be doing the same thing that I do, it feels like I’m being stolen away from my partner. So it’s a running joke that I’m married to the Dhamma. Yeah, so it’s personal in a sense because it’s a decision that I’ve made and I feel pretty at ease now. I’m not so sure about next time if it makes sense. People listening to this might disagree.

[00:27:06] Cheryl:

First really thank you for sharing something so personal but I think it really boils down to what is important to you and there’s no right or wrong about this. Perhaps listeners will be like, no, I think maybe Dhamma would be ranked one, two, three, four, after everything else, but that’s fine also. But it seems to be very clear to me that for both of you, Dhamma and the practice and propagation of it is ranking number one.

[00:27:28] Kai Xin:

Number one for me lah, I’m not sure about…

[00:27:30] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, I view it as like many universes, there are many planets.

[00:27:35] Kai Xin:

I feel like you balance it quite well. So that’s something I would never be able to do and I really respect that about you.

[00:27:40] Heng Xuan:

They say that there are many balls in life, right? There are glass balls and there are rubber balls. And you must know at every point of your life, which are the glass balls and which are the rubber balls. The moment you fail to recognize that, you drop the glass balls and it’s gone. But the rubber balls will come back, they will bounce back. That’s how I view the whole ecosystem. The universe of relationships and all the things that you hold in your life.

[00:28:00] Cheryl:

Oh, that’s a really good one to think about. What are your glass balls and rubber balls in life?

[00:28:07] Cheryl:

We have come to an end for all the questions that we wanted to ask. But I’m actually still very curious about your personal practice and your relationship with the Buddhist practice itself. What is your relationship with your own suffering after encountering Buddhism for the many years that you have?

[00:28:27] Kai Xin:

I guess it’s to define what suffering is and then the relationship with it. In the past, when I first started, suffering felt very gross, why Buddhism is so pessimistic? And it feels like I have to cry and break down to define myself as I’m suffering. But over the years, I realized also to practice that even though I don’t have those, breakdown, and burnout moments, I am still suffering in a very subtle form. For instance, clinging onto my views or maybe my ego or my sense of identity that I always have to do Dhamma work. All of this, unless I’m enlightened, would still constantly be a source of practice and reflection, right? Am I dissatisfied at any point in my day?

So, the relationship has changed to something more nurturing. I don’t blame myself for feeling negative or feeling certain unpleasant emotions. Yeah, and just like, oh yeah, you’re just a work in progress. You’re progressing, and these are the yardsticks. You’re doing well, and it’s okay to backslide a little bit. Just put in an effort in the future, and it’s a dance, it’s a very nice dance. So I think, now, I can say I’m in a good place, I don’t attach too much to the things that I do or views anymore. Yeah, but people around me can tell me otherwise. It’s like blind spots, right?

[00:29:48] Cheryl:

I think the first thing that I get from you is like, you seem a lot more gentle with yourself. You could be very harsh to yourself in the past.

[00:29:56] Kai Xin:

Yeah, I am still very self-critical. It’s something that I’m still working on. Yes, but more gentle.

[00:30:02] Cheryl:

Thanks for sharing.

[00:30:04] Heng Xuan:

I think for me, suffering I used to want to get rid of it. I would actually watch YouTube videos or watch movies. Last time I really loved watching movies, like you enter a whole new world. And that’s actually pushing away suffering. Like most of us start from the angle of, I see suffering, I want to run away from it. I want to push, I want to indulge, I want to eat a lot of ice cream or whatever and get away from it. And even to a certain extent, working out to get rid of the stress or run away from emotions.

But right now actually, the relationship with suffering is seeing it on a smaller level. Seeing how you cling to certain views therefore you become unhappy. And I think last time I could be angry with something for like maybe one week. And now it is as little as 10 minutes. I can let it go.

[00:30:44] Kai Xin:

I’ve never seen you angry before.

[00:30:45] Heng Xuan:

Yeah, so I rarely get angry now. I think maybe less than twice a year kind of thing. Wow. So it has really improved. One of my Dhamma friends said, if you die tonight, will that anger matter anymore? Then that kind of thing strikes at you and you exit this whole suffering, self-created suffering. But I’m a big fan of this thing called chosen suffering.

So basically, there are certain things that you do that you don’t like to do, but you choose to do it because it’s good for you and because life is going to throw at you unchosen suffering. So all of this is training yourself to reach a better state of mind, so that when unchosen suffering hits you, you are ready for it, you can bounce back. But if we spend our life choosing to follow all our pleasures, then it’s going to be difficult because we’re not going to be prepared for that day, and that day will come when unchosen suffering like aging, sickness, and death comes.

[00:31:38] Kai Xin:

That’s so true. So your chosen suffering is at the gym?

[00:31:43] Heng Xuan:

Actually, it’s not just at the gym, right? So chosen suffering comes to the point of like eating well, when I commute I don’t use social media, I listen to Dhamma talks. And not every day you want to listen to Dhamma talks. But that commute, even if you’re not in the mood, I will just tune in. Because some Dhamma talks are just 10 minutes, which is like super good. Or even for those people who are very busy out there, then perhaps 3 minutes. dhammatalks.org

[00:32:06] Kai Xin:

Or you can listen to our podcast.

[00:32:09] Heng Xuan:

Sometimes you don’t like to meditate, right? Don’t tell me every day you…

[00:32:11] Kai Xin:

No, of course. There will be times when you feel like, ah, why?

[00:32:15] Heng Xuan:

Correct. And that’s the chosen suffering that we all try to do every day.

[00:32:19] Kai Xin:

Wow. That’s powerful.

[00:32:20] Cheryl:

Yeah. So choose your suffering well so that you’re training yourself, you’re cultivating your mind to have that sense of resilience that when life throws you lemons and unchosen sufferings you’re able to tap back into that strength to overcome it. With that, I think we’ve come to the end of the episode. So thank you for sharing Kai Xin and Heng Xuan. And thank you listeners for staying to the end. If you like this episode, comment and let us know if you want to see more of this kind of video.

[00:32:49] Kai Xin:

If you haven’t subscribed, please do so now It would really help us to increase the reach and also the algorithm.

[00:32:55] Heng Xuan:

Every time you subscribe, we can reach 10 more people. That’s just amazing. So just help us subscribe and make someone’s day. You’ll never know.

[00:33:03] Cheryl:

Thank you and may you stay happy and wise!

Resources:

πŸ’‘ HOL Article on Pre-Marital Sex: ⁠https://handfulofleaves.life/buddhism-pre-marital-sex-can-or-not-ah
πŸ’‘ Ways to support our efforts: ⁠https://handfulofleaves.life/support
πŸ’‘ Dhamma Talks on-the-go: ⁠https://www.dhammatalks.org

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, SuΓ±Γ±a, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Zayn See, Yu Xiangzhi

Editor and transcriber of this episode: Cheryl Cheah, Susara Ng, Ke Hui Tee

At 29, I reached financial independence and retired. Here’s what I didn’t realise would happen next.

At 29, I reached financial independence and retired. Here’s what I didn’t realise would happen next.

Editor: In Singapore & Malaysia, there is a growing FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement amongst Gen-Zs and Millennials. Author ‘S’, shares his experience in achieving FIRE at a young age. With the freedom to do anything you want and not work for the rest of your life, what else could you ask for! We tend to talk about FIRE, but what’s after that? S dives deeper.

TL;DR: It took lots of rollercoaster rides with money for me to find my true passion, which led to a broader question: what’s the meaning of life?

My obsession with money started young. 

I was 18 when I told someone my goal was to make a hundred million dollars by 35. It seemed like an absurd, unreachable goal for someone who didn’t come from a wealthy family. But deep down, I believed I could do it. In fact, I believed I could exceed it. I wanted to be a billionaire. I wanted so much money I wouldn’t even know what to do with it. 

But why? 

That has always been a question that bothered me whenever I wanted something badly. Why? What’s next? What’s next when I do become a billionaire? What’s the point? 

I remember walking into a Louis Vuitton shop, admiring all the expensive shoes and bags, and fantasizing about all the things I would buy when I’m rich. 

I would look at photos of sports cars and imagine myself in a Lamborghini. When having a Lamborghini doesn’t feel good enough, I would find even more exclusive cars to get. 

But why? 

I wanted to be admired. I’d get a kick when people envy me. But did that really make me happy? 

When I shared my goals with my closest friends, I could feel them distancing. My friends didn’t want to know how much money I had, or how rich I would become. I could see them nodding their heads but the corner of their eyes would look odd – something I could never quite make out. 

Then I realised, nobody cares. 

Nobody cares how rich I will be. They only care about themselves. 

In fact, if I’m richer than them, it makes them feel insecure. It pushes them away. My need for approval actually drove my closest friends away. Nobody admired me. 

I stopped sharing and talking about money with my friends.  

Alright, so if money wasn’t going to get me admiration, why do I need more money? 

Maybe to be happy? Makes sense. Having all the money in the world would free me from having to work. 

So I worked hard to make money. 

When most people were thinking about grades, I was teaching tuition. I studied the richest people like Warren Buffett. I took up jobs like sales where the number of hours I worked didn’t determine how much money I made. I did well in sales. 

I started businesses on the side to earn more money. I scrimped and saved. I spent countless hours reading all the books and watching all the videos I can find about investing.  

Then, the time finally came. I had enough money to feel like I didn’t need to work anymore. 

So I retired. At 29. 

I won’t lie. It was great at the start. The feeling of being able to wake up any time I want, having an empty calendar, and having money to pursue my hobbies and passions. 

But what were my passions? What was truly my passion? 

I had spent so much time trying to make money that making money was my only passion. Investing was my passion. Thinking about money was my passion. 

But now that I have money, what’s next? 

I spent one year trying out so many hobbies. It feels great to wake up and just play computer games the whole day, but I soon realised I can’t do this forever. I tried knitting, sports, photography, travelling, and many others. But few turned into passions. 

Some hobbies stuck, like exercising and hanging out with friends. But I wouldn’t call them passions. 

Something was still missing. I wasn’t happy. 

I realised that I have a strong need for intellectual stimulation, and I went back to a job that satisfied that urge. That job is now my passion. I wake up every day more excited about that job than I was when I was financially free.

I used to think that retiring meant having so much money I don’t have to work anymore. 

But Naval Ravikant once said retiring means not sacrificing today for an imaginary tomorrow. 

To me, not sacrificing today means not depriving myself of good food to save more money. Not missing out on gatherings to earn more money. Not making so much money, then wondering what’s the point of it all. 

When I had enough money but didn’t have a true passion, I still felt like every day was a struggle. I was still sacrificing each day to find a better tomorrow where I feel intellectually engaged. 

If I feel like I’m not sacrificing today, I’m retired. I don’t need a lot of money for that. I can be working, and I feel retired. 

When I found my true passion, I finally stopped asking why. 

I finally stopped asking what was next. 

It led me to discover the meaning of life

What’s yours?

Wise steps

The best thing about the meaning of life is that it’s a very personal journey. There’s no one meaning for everyone, else we’ll all be competing for that same meaning. That’s also why I didn’t share mine because it will be very different from yours. 

Yours could be to maximise the money you make before you die. It could be to find the love of your life. It could very well be that life has no meaning for you, and you’re floating along life seeing what it brings. 

There’s no right answer. There’s your answer.

There’re many self-help books with steps to follow. Do x, and you’ll get Y. Study hard, and you’ll get better grades. Start a successful business, and you’ll get rich.

But I found my answers when I looked internally

Your meaning of life is there to be found.

You just have to want to know it badly enough.

Reflecting on the death of my teacher Master Hsing Yun, founder of Fo Guang Shan

Reflecting on the death of my teacher Master Hsing Yun, founder of Fo Guang Shan

Editor: Master Hsing Yun, a visionary monk who established a thriving Buddhist community in Taiwan and built education institutes overseas, passed away at the age of 95. He established Fo Guang Shan monastery in 1967, aiming to propagate Buddhist humanitarian values. 

Humanistic Buddhism οΌˆδΊΊι—΄δ½›ζ•™οΌ‰ emphasises the integration of Buddhist principles into everyday life and the application of Buddhist values in society. This movement has contributed to one of the most significant growth of Buddhism around the world.

One of our writers, Kai Xiang, shares his reflections on how Master Hsing Yun has impacted his life. At HOL, we share our heartfelt gratitude for Venerable Hsing Yun’s teachings and his impact on the Buddhist Community. Though he has left us, let us never leave behind his teachings.

Cr: China Foto Press

His teaching brought me comfort

In his teachings, Venerable Master Hsing Yun emphasised that the Buddha was a human just like us. He was born in the human world, attained enlightenment in human form, and taught his fellow humans the Dharma.

This perspective makes the Buddha more approachable, as I can relate my struggles to his quest for enlightenment and turn to his teachings when I navigate life’s difficulties.

For example, in making important life decisions, I reflected on the Buddha’s courage in relinquishing his privileged life and stepping out of his comfort zone to seek enlightenment.

Instead of jumping into my habit of being passive-aggressive when dealing with interpersonal problems like misunderstandings or conflicts with friends, I reflect on how the Buddha would respond in such situations with wisdom and compassion.

The Four Givings

Apart from engaging in open and honest conversations, I have found that practising the Four Givings taught by Venerable Master Hsing Yun – giving others confidence, hope, joy, and convenience – has been helpful in fostering my relationships. Recollecting on these givings has helped me to give even when it was tough to do so.

See the world as it is

In teaching Humanistic Buddhism, Venerable Master Hsing Yun often cited a verse by Huineng the Sixth Patriarch, which says β€œDharma can only be found in the world, and enlightenment cannot be attained away from it (δ½›ζ³•εœ¨δΈ–ι–“οΌŒδΈι›’δΈ–ι–“θ¦Ί)”.

This idea inspires me to incorporate Buddhist values into my daily life. For example, reflecting on Disney’s Frozen movie, the song “Let It Go” reminds me to free myself from attachments and experience the joy of letting go.

The song β€œShow Yourself” in its sequel prompted me to relate Elsa’s journey of self-discovery to my Buddhist practice, which is to β€œsee intrinsic nature by illuminating the mind (ζ˜ŽεΏƒθ¦‹ζ€§)”.

Thanks for reading my short reflection on my late teacher. May you find these teachings useful to daily living!


Inspired? Learn about Master Hsing Yun’s life story here

Connect with Fo Guang Shan Young Adult Division here

Ep 0: The start of an imperfect but beautiful journey

Ep 0: The start of an imperfect but beautiful journey

You’ve got the Handful of Leaves Podcast here to tackle all these big and small issues in life from a Southeast Asian perspective! We cover topics like mental health, finance, career, to the juicy details of sex, and we are not afraid to ask the tough questions. 

Hosted by two friends Kai Xin and Cheryl who crossed paths and bonded over a shared curiosity of β€œIs there more to life?”, we hope to share practical Buddhist wisdom that uplifts your mind and heart for a happier life!
Join us as we laugh and cry and embark on a roller coaster of an episode 0 premiering Episode  This Sunday at….on….. All platforms. 

In Episode 0:  We learn more about the two hosts, Kai Xin and Cheryl as we dig deep into our hopes, fears, insecurities and bare it all out for you! We also talk about why having representation as an Asian Buddhist Podcast is so important and share our hopes and aspirations for this season!

Resources: 
Amaravati Buddhist Monastery (UK)
Article on Spiritual bypassing – I have let go. Or have I?
Article: Which type of Buddhist are you?

Listen directly on spotify with timestamps.


Cheryl  00:11

Hello, and welcome to the Handful Of Leaves podcast. I’m your co-host Cheryl,

Kai Xin  00:27

and I’m Kai Xin, bringing you practical Buddhist wisdom for happier life. 

Before we start this episode proper, if you are new to Handful Of Leaves, we are a boutique Buddhist Publication, featuring stories by Asian writers on topics such as relationships, mental well-being, work, finance, productivity, and the list goes on. Through sharing these stories, we hoped that individuals like yourself would be able to navigate the complexities of life just a little better, and to lead a happier and more fulfilling life. 

In this episode, we’re going to share why we started this podcast. You’re going to know Cheryl and I as individuals throughout our backstories.

Towards the end, we’re going to get into some pretty deep conversations and answering some tough questions.  That’s the part where Cheryl made me cry. Well, we hope that you’ll take away something useful. Don’t forget to follow and subscribe. Now let’s begin.

Cheryl  01:31

So, can you tell me what made you want to start a podcast? Because Handful Of Leaves is already a blog.  Why go into a different format? Why Audio? Why not just blogs and the stock videos that is already there. I’m not sure about you, but I feel that people enter deeper conversations in a podcast format.  It’s not like I skimmed through something in two minutes, right? Or I can go on Tik Tok or Instagram, but what is the value? Not to say that articles don’t add value. I think our writers are doing a good job. But I want to learn more. When they write stories, I’m curious to know how do they derive a particular thought or idea. That’s why I think this podcast acts as a platform for us to discover that more and to go beyond.  Yeah, because it’s candid, right? And it also really brings a human out, rather than just you know, behind a picture or behind a couple of words.

Are there topics that you’re excited to learn about in this podcast?

Cheryl  02:31

I’m just particularly interested in like just exploring the unknown, because you don’t know what you don’t know. Of course, they are topics I’m interested in, like relationships, love, career, and so on. But sometimes through conversations, you really dig up a perspective that you didn’t even think about before. And you question assumptions that you already have, and your blind spots. And I think that is something that I really look forward to that only conversations can kind of dig out. Yeah.

Kai Xin  02:58

Were there assumptions that you have but you invalidated them after listening to a conversation or a podcast?

Cheryl  03:07

I think this is a conversation, not a podcast. I was talking to someone who went through a bad breakup, and they were in the relationship for five years.  Before talking to the person, I had a very fixed idea on how a person should deal with grief. I have this picture of them, just hiding in their room and crying forever. Then just disappearing. But once I spoke to them, I realised that some people’s way of coping with grief is actually through getting into another relationship almost immediately.  So, I think from the conversation, I learned to not judge people so much, because I understand that everyone is really in their way, just having suffering and wanting less of that suffering. The way that I am accustomed to seeing or the way I feel that it’s the right way to deal with it may not apply to everybody and to be open minded of the different ways people could work with their grief. 

I was also talking to another person who lost her daughter in a car accident. And then it was just very interesting to see how an accident like that actually caused her to become a very cold mom. From the outside, usually you’ll see a cold mom would mean that the person is not good. You immediately jump into judgement, right? Not a responsible mother. How can she be like that? But when I spoke to her, I realised that it was really because of her need and wanting to protect her children from her pain. She didn’t want her pain to seep out to them and affect the way they interacted with the world.  I think like from these two stories I’m sharing it’s really about allowing yourself to see the human before letting your judgement get the better.

Kai Xin  04:59

Yeah, I think there are a lot of layers to a person that will determine how they act, how they behave. I totally resonate with what you said about judging. I find myself guilty of that. I mean, who doesn’t?  And one thing I hope this podcast can do it also for me to peel the layers of the onion, to see that there’s actually many different perspectives to look at one same topic. It’s not to say that who’s right or who’s wrong, or like, who’s better or who’s not so good. But it’s just to have that nuanced perspective and increase the level of empathy. Life is not so black and white and right, and whatever stories and decisions that we make, or live by then, hopefully, you know, to interviewing different people and having the chit-chat sessions, we will make more informed decisions, and live happier lives, I suppose.

Cheryl  06:11

Handful Of Leaves’s vision is to offer practical wisdom for happier life. I’m curious, like, what’s the most important, either a piece of advice or most important thing that has changed your life towards a more like a happier trajectory?

Kai Xin  06:32

Well, I don’t think I can pin it down to one specific.

Cheryl  06:35

Cannot. It must be one.

Kai Xin  06:38

Okay, I wouldn’t say that advice made me happier. But it did inform my decisions in life that contributed to my overall well being.  I’ve shared this story with you and with many others before, which is my trip to UK. Okay. So, a little bit of background for listeners.  I started a business when I was 19. And I hustled a lot, a lot of burnout, sleepless night. So I was two years in and I needed a break. Some people call it soul searching, or a trip to find yourself. Something in me was pulling me and I went all the way to UK, to Amaravati, a Buddhist forest monastery. I stayed there for more than a month. And I’ve met different people from different parts of the world, and that’s very interesting to me: why they are there. Because it seems like everyone is searching for something.  And there was this lady whom I spoke to, when we were doing the dishes in the morning. I realised that she stayed there for a really long time. I think she was there for more than two months. And I was very curious as to 1. Doesn’t she need to work? 2.Why stay there for so long?  What does she want to get out of it? Maybe like myself, people were asking me the same question. 

Something hit me when she said, she used to work at a hospice, which I thought was a meaningful career. So I asked her why she stopped? And she said that, over the years working there, she realised there was a pattern. People were coming and going, and of course, people, you know, passing away. There were a lot of regrets. And the regrets are not around, how much time one can clock in the office, or how much extra work that one has done. But it’s a lot about family, as well as doing what their hearts desire.  And that helped her to reprioritise what she wants in life. And then this whole accident, existential thing, right, like what is life all about, which brought her to the monastery. And then she realised there’s something beyond even like, she’s doing such meaningful work, she realised there’s something beyond, which is to like, free our hearts from all this dissatisfaction and she wanted to gain more wisdom.

Why it left such a deep impression all the way till now, I think it’s been almost seven years is because after I came back, I started to wonder, what am I so busy for.  I was doing like a lot of things, not just on the business side but also volunteer work. Then, I realised I was neglecting a lot of important parts of my life like family.  So how it helped me be a happier person was that every every single time when I would to embark on certain projects or work on certain things, I would ask myself, “What is this for? What’s the purpose?” So, I became very purpose driven. And that became my Northstar. And whatever I do, even if I’m busy, I would know that this is something that I want.  So, if I were to live a short life, hopefully, I woud have less regrets and, I would time box and carve out time for my family on weekends. Because when they are working, Sunday is the only time. You know things like that. So, it helped me prioritise a lot in life and generally, I think, live quite a happy life. 

It’s important for me to clarify this: So, busy has a negative connotation where people would say that if you’re busy, you’re kind of doing the things that you don’t like to do, or you would rather not do. But for me, I would differentiate it from being occupied. So, from an external point of view, I might be doing like 10,000 things. And people might say, Kai Xin is very busy. But I feel like I’m occupied. And that’s because I am doing the things that I like to do, like recording and starting this podcast. So yeah, it’s important to differentiate that. Having said that, I do have my busy period, where I wish I would have less on my plate. So it’s about finding that balance.

Cheryl  10:47

Yeah, it makes sense. And I guess my question to you then is like, how do you find that balance?

Kai Xin  10:54

Yeah, we’re definitely gonna cover more of that in the next episode, How To balance contentment and ambition. So I would save that for the episodes. Stay tuned.

Cheryl  11:04

I think why being apart of Handful Of Leaves is important to me personally, is because I think there are a lot of Buddhist resources, but there’s not a lot of Buddhist and you know, youth-focused and Asian resources available. I still remember, I don’t know if it’s something that you can relate to, but when I was a teenager, and when I was having crushes on people, I would be reading Tiny Buddha —  signs that a crush likes you back or like, you know, things like that to get advice, and really just how to navigate through all these kinds of things.  Of course, it is helpful. A lot of the human conditions are very universal in the sense that sometimes we struggle with depressive states, or sometimes we just do not know how to deal with stress and anxiety. But I think having content that can help to acknowledge the nuances in our Asian upbringing, like in our culture of being not so expressive in saying that you like somebody, for example, just using that same relationship picture again, will really help people to feel seen. 

And I think sometimes I find it very ironic, because if you think about it, like the first Noble Truth is about life is unsatisfactory, right? There’s a lot of suffering. But a lot of times when we listen to Dharma, which is the Buddha’s teachings, it is always so theoretical, idealistic, and I find it so ironic when it doesn’t bring the human piece together. So, I think for me, being vulnerable is very important. I at least want to be a part of bringing the voice of telling stories of telling the truth, whether it’s nice to hear or  not nice to hear, and ensuring that these stories are told, even if it’s difficult to tell.  And I think that’s very important, because, if your experiences are being acknowledged, with, you know, with the nuance of Asian and young and stuff like that, it really helps you to bring to life what it means to be a Buddhist as a human, rather than Buddhism as a religion, which can be very dry and very theoretical.

Kai Xin  13:31

Yeah! I definitely resonate a lot with what you said. So three things.  First, about the nuances in the Asian context. In the Asian context, we are very conservative. So there are certain things even relating to mental well being it is not until the recent years that I think our society starts to open up more on this topic. But previously, it was a taboo subject, right?  Or like to talk about your relationship issues openly without the fear of being judged, etc. In those areas, we can help people to connect the dots better to really navigate all the complexities in life and to apply more of the Buddhist wisdom and principles to lead something that’s more fulfilling. And also to recognise that it’s not about saying, “Oh, let go!”, “This too shall pass!”.

I think that is where the second point comes in. Sometimes it can be a little bit idealistic to say, “Oh, if I’m spiritual, or I’m religious, then I have to uphold certain moral conduct and there is no room for failure.”. If we were to do something bad accidentally or because we are still work in progress, there can be a lot of guilt tripping, or a lot of feeling like we are not good enough. And it’s very tempting to just throw in the towel because everything or everyone else seems to be doing well.   Then, we might feel, “Am I really cut out for this? Maybe, not so much.”.  So, I think a big part of why we started Handful of Leaves is also to paint a holistic picture and to say that it is a journey, to show the vulnerability of people. When they are growing spiritually to say, it’s not just a destination, but there are so many bumps on the road, it will be bumpier at the start, and the journey will be smoother towards the end. So we are hoping to be with people along this journey. 

Then, I think the third thing is more about the application. If you read the the discourses, and you really understand how the Buddha taught, he tailors his teaching to different people. To merchants, he would speak in a very different way. And he uses a lot of analogies and brought it very close to home, and taught things that can be applied.  I think why it feels that sometimes the teaching can be very dry is because we might, or rather the teachings that we hear might be disconnected from our day to day struggles. So it’s kind of a very blanket approach to say, ‘Oh, yeah, just be kind. Oh, yeah. You know, don’t think too much about it.’. And then there’s a lot of spiritual bypassing.  And how can we apply in a practical sense? Say, if I’m dealing with workplace politics, or like if I’m dealing with relationship issues. Example, now in the Asian context, the COVID phenomena is children moving out of their parents place. I went through that journey. And it was such a weird concept to think about, because Asian parents are like, ‘Why do you want to leave the family when you’re not even married?’. And, you know, thoughts like, ‘Are you abandoning us?’.  And there’s a lot of like…

Cheryl  16:36

Filial piety?

Kai Xin  16:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the whole filial piety thing. So, I think it’s about meshing all these together. Number one, how can we make it more nuanced in the Asian context? Number two, how can we show the holistic picture to say that it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, and that’s perfectly fine? Then, number three, bring it close to day to day and say, How can I take small steps to improve my life?  Let’s backtrack a little bit. I’m not so sure how you started Buddhism, I hear bits and pieces of stories. But when I first came to the Dharma, and learn about Buddhism, it was it was such an eye opening experience. Because I’ve always associated Buddhism to something that is very ancient and very ritualistic.

Cheryl  17:25

Not relatable.

Kai Xin  17:27

Yeah! Also because it’s an Asian upbringing, right? It’s so unrelatable, because you’re not allowed to question. And then I feel that the faith is so blind. When I first got to know the Buddhist teachings, I was like, ‘Wow! This is completely opposite from what my parents have taught me!’.  Even the whole concept of like going to the temple, it’s not the Buddha’s teachings. There’s a lot of like, Chinese culture infused, a lot of rituals. And it is not to say that the rituals are not helpful. But I think a lot of us, if you were to ask 10 Singaporeans, what do they know about rituals? I would say, nine of them or like 9.5 of them would say, ‘I don’t know, just go pray, go to Kwan Yin Ma temple and pray for good luck. I usually go there during exam period.’.  When I’m like, going through certain life challenges, difficulties.

Kai Xin  18:20

yeah and if I can’t find answers within, then you have to seek out, for divine intervention. But then I realised actually a very big part of Buddhism is about finding the answers within, which is so ironic. I hope that, you know, through this podcast, and also the content that we post on our website, people would be able to find that clarity in their journey of growth. And it’s content that I personally wish were out there many years ago but are not.

Cheryl  18:47

I think, really, the power in Buddhism is really when you’re able to apply it into into your life. Like there’s no point saying, Oh, I understand impermanence. Theoretically, I understand the concept of non-self. It really doesn’t help you at all, if you can’t apply it to help you to be someone who’s more compassionate, less judgmental, and less critical of yourself and, and others.

And I think perhaps it’s it’s the disconnect in the kind of Buddhist teachings they’re exposed to, right? Maybe it was just never linked to how we can apply in our workplace, for example, or how we can be very skillful in applying in our family relationships. So I think, hopefully, this podcast can connect the dots for people and really enrich their lives in that sense as well. But I do feel that more important is also planting the seeds to liberating oneself from like suffering completely. 

You mentioned earlier that you want to highlight that this is kind of a journey with ups and downs. And I think on top of that, it’s not just ups and downs, but also to illustrate the different kinds of journey everybody could be on by sharing as many stories as possible. Someone could be, you know, maybe just completely new to Buddhism and finding it extremely challenging. But someone could be maybe a couple years in to the path, feeling that their faith is wavering a bit, or someone who’s like, crossroads of wanting to renounce but then the family is pulling them back. So it is really about showing the different journeys a Buddhist could be on and the different flavours that it could entail.

Kai Xin  20:38

Everyone’s life is different, right? The monastic life is not for everybody. And just like how the corporate life is not for everybody. So, hopefully..

Cheryl  20:47

That’s a very nice comparison.

Kai Xin  20:49

Yeah, it’s so true. So through the like, the journey as well as gaining all these different perspectives, hopefully, one would be able to, again, make a more informed decision to what they feel most at peace with. It’s not so much about what other people want, but having the clarity within on what’s best based on..

Cheryl  21:10

and that’s the most important.

Kai Xin  21:11

Yeah, that’s the most important. Based on the readiness, the capacity, and everything. It is not to shoebox ourselves to one mould to say all Buddhist’s should be like that. 

Chery 21:21

Maybe get to know us a little bit more! So, Kai Xin, how did we meet?

Kai Xin 21:23

I think your story and my story is very different. Yeah, different versions. To be honest, I can’t remember fully how we met. I vaguely recall, it was through a camp. You came all the way from Malaysia to Singapore, just to attend the youth camp. And that was a few. How many years ago 5? 6? 7?

Cheryl  21:45

More than I think about seven years ago, maybe around 2014.

Kai Xin  21:50

Wow, we’ve known each other for eight years, or some would say many lifetimes. I always remember seeing you at the meditation session. So we have like this Tuesday sit at one of the Buddhist centres. You’re always there.  And a fun fact is now we are housemates because I had this random concept of hey, it would be so nice to live with a Dharma friend. And then we have another friend of ours who was also renting and I just floated the idea that it would be good to have a dhamma house together. And we are housemates now.  I think how I really got to know you more and then we became a lot better friends through working on Handful Of Leaves — getting feedback relating to the website and relating to the content. And yeah, just naturally, I think there was a lot of like to and fro…

Cheryl  22:52

completely inaccurate

Kai Xin  22:53

Alright. Present your version of the story.

Cheryl  22:58

So yes, we first met camp. I need to tell the story you when you were really awkward. I think I met you and for some weird reason, I decided to go up and tell you that I admired that you meditated a lot. And then you were super uncomfortable. And I was thinking to myself, ‘this Kai Xin hates me forever.’. And then I kind of just stayed away from her every other time I saw her.

Kai Xin  23:25

Wait, I have to cut you there. I mean, wouldn’t it be awkward if someone just randomly comes up to you and go, ‘Oh, Cheryl, I really think that you are a very good meditator or  you meditate a lot.’. I mean, it’s out of no where. It’s like seeing a lizard like popping out of no where.

Cheryl  23:43

Why you will compare this to a lizard. That is terrible!

Kai Xin  23:46

Okay, sorry. You are much better than that. I mean, you can’t blame me for being awkward. Now, continue.

Cheryl  23:55

No, people would have graciously accepted the compliment. But anyway, our paths didn’t cross. And then I moved to Singapore and then there was the regular meditation at BF (Buddhist Fellowship) where I would occasionally see Kai Xin. And then, yeah, we didn’t really get close because it was more of hi and bye, and how was your meditation kind of short conversations.  And then coincidentally, she asked me about the Handful of Leaves feedback. That is correct, that is so far true. And I think what bonded us was like the deeper curiosity to I don’t know, life? The approach of how to be better how to be a nicer person, kinder person and discussions around that. And then yeah, somehow we just became housemates, and podcast-mates.

Kai Xin  24:46

Now that you mentioned I can recall because I had very deep conversations with you about friendship. And then also because like, I’ve moved out from my parents, right. I mean, back then we weren’t housemates yet. And there was a transition.  And yeah, I think through a few conversations you kind of ask very deep questions. And of course, I have to give very thoughtful replies, which can take days.

Cheryl  25:12

Weeks

Kai Xin  25:13

Fun fact about me, I take really long to reply people, especially if they are texts that makes me think I don’t want to just reply people while I’m like multitasking, because I don’t think it’s going to be thoughtful. So yeah, because it takes so long, it is like snail mail. And then just a wall of text, and very deep conversations, which I really appreciate.

Cheryl  25:37

But I guess, you know, I one question is, what is a question I should ask you but I think I don’t know enough about you to ask?

Kai Xin  25:48

How would you respond to this yourself?

Cheryl  25:50

Eh. You don’t question me with a question. I think this question is for you to own. You can rephrase it as you like, but essentially something that I don’t know about you yet that you would like to share.

Kai Xin  26:03

I don’t know this, this is so hard to start because I think you know a lot about me, but I’m not so sure whether there are certain assumptions that you have made in the process that I might have a backstory to say, actually, the assumption is false. What are your current assumptions of me? Like? How would you describe me as a person?

Cheryl  26:28

Oh sorry, my internet is very bad! (Joking)

Kai Xin  26:32

I mean, it’s a very tough question.

Cheryl  26:34

True. Not sure. But I think you could be someone that could be very hard on yourself. And you will probably tend to extend more compassion to other people than to yourself.

Kai Xin  26:48

I am quite hard on myself. As to whether I’m compassionate to others, I think this is an assumption that I would have to, like invalidate. Funnily enough, I used to think that I’m quite a compassionate person. I wouldn’t deny the fact that I do compassionate stuff, but I’m not as compassionate as what other people think.

Cheryl  27:13

It’s funny that you say that. Because I think if we would, say, just ask any mutual friend, I think compassion will be one of the terms they would probably associate you with.

Kai Xin  27:23

Is it because of the things that I do? Or say? How did that assumption come about?

Cheryl  27:29

I think mostly from your actions. You help people proactively.

Kai Xin  27:32

I actually don’t do that proactively, which is something that I discovered. So I think COVID brought a lot of learnings, I have come to discover that I’m not such a compassionate person, because during COVID period, I’m pretty much a hermit. And to some degree didn’t really help with my whole mental well being. I was just alone. And I don’t proactively reach out to friends. And I guess friends just think that I’m fine, because I’m usually the one reaching out to them. And I realised the reason that was the case was because if you’re in sight and if I see your suffering, I can’t just unsee it. I would then reach out to you and help.  But if you’re out of sight, I wouldn’t keep you in my mind all the time. Yeah. So I wouldn’t say I’m compassionate enough, or like, in the way I want to be.

And so I think some people would then see the first part. Yeah, Kai Xin, you’re being too hard on yourself. Like there’s a pattern.  I think I’m compassionate, but not as much as what I think other people associate me to be. One thing I’m really guilty about, like, is when I got out of my hermit mode. And like, some of my friends actually reach out to me to catch up and then I realised that actually many of them are struggling.  I was struggling as well. And then I felt like I could have reached out to these people. Why am I so selfish, just thinking about myself? It’s not like I was deep in the pit. There were days when I’m just savoring my alone time and I don’t want to talk to anybody. And then it got a little bit unhealthy.

Cheryl  29:20

But you’re enjoying it. Why is it unhealthy?

Kai Xin  29:22

There’s a tipping point, right? At first, I enjoy it. But then I realised too much solitude is not conducive. Because I don’t interact with people, I don’t get triggered. And I can just be in my own world. I don’t broaden my perspective. So it becomes unhealthy when I am just with my own thoughts, and that it comes more unhealthy if my thoughts are not healthy, then it becomes a very

Cheryl  29:52

vicious cycle, but it could also be that expectation that Kai Xin needs to help as many people as possible? The expectations you have of yourself, which nobody kind of imposed on you?

Kai Xin  30:04

I wouldn’t say I have like very ambitious goals, like a lot of people to say, I want to have like a million people and you know, overcome poverty. For me, I don’t think I’m driven enough to say that. But within my capacity, I want to help.

Cheryl  30:21

It’s very interesting, I guess how I perceive you and how you perceive yourself. It’s almost contradicting the certain extent. I think this just goes to show how much perception is so subjective, and to always, you know, be open to seeing people as they are, rather than seeing people as a reflection of your own ideas.

Kai Xin  30:50

I think it’s interesting that you think that I’m very compassionate. I mean, I like I would appreciate, I appreciate that and think that as a compliment. But I also realise it can be quite unhealthy to some point, because I’m not sure whether people hold on to certain expectations of me. Because I’m always the one reaching out to people hence. I don’t need to reach out to people you get what I mean?

Cheryl  31:19

Hence, people don’t need to reach out to you, you mean? You’re the person that is always caring, and people forget to care for the carer?

Kai Xin  31:26

Yeah. And they kind of just assume that I’m fine when sometimes I’m not.

Cheryl  31:31

So all our listeners here, personally, please reach out with a heart shape. She would appreciate it very much.

Kai Xin  31:39

Yes! Not that you can see me but I’m, I’m giving a heart sign. \ Yeah, I think it was quite a tough learning for me to come to realise, actually, I do need a lot of care. Because I used to be the person to say, ‘Oh, self love, I can be self sustaining.’.  To some degree, I still believe that. But I realised it’s important to have the option to lean on others as well. And it’s especially important in times when I personally don’t have the strength to be on myself.

Yeah, so please break the stereotype that I’m all sound.  Because like someone ever, one of the youth, came to me and said, ‘Kai Xin you are so perfect.’. I was like, wow. And it really affected me in a negative way. I mean, not that a person had any bad intention. I think it just stems from a place of admiration. But I felt so bad for myself. Back then I used to post a lot on social media, I would share my learnings. And you know, I was starting out and I was connecting with a lot of people. It’s part of the process of growing a startup.  And people would say like, well, because you’re doing so many things, like I’m so disappointed in my life. I don’t know something in me just can’t sit well with being the cause of somebody else’s unhappiness. I know, I’m not directly causing them (to be unhappy) because it’s not like I have any ill intention. But just the thought of having that option where people look at me and then they feel sad about themselves, what the hell I don’t want that. I would rather not be seen as successful if it makes you sad. 

Then, I think I start to downplay a lot of my successes. I think also to some point, sometimes it can be a little bit annoying for some people. They might think why can’t just accept that you have achieved certain things? Why do you always have to have to say that actually you are still in the process of learning and there’s so much more.  I think one of the friends also said, ‘why can’t you just accept praises?’, which is something that I find very hard to do, which I’m still in the process of trying to learn. 

So, when people have certain stereotypes of me, it’s almost like an ideal, like idealism? And they project it on me. I feel scared. Because what if one day I do something that is out of line and un-compassionate? What would they think of me? I have flaws. You know. If they see me as a perfect person, then I have no room to be imperfect. It’s a very scary thought.

Cheryl  34:19

And you’re just human and definitely as a human you are vulnerable, you have flaws. You’re not perfect. You’re really just learning.  And when there’s this kind of expectations put on you it kind of restricts how you could be free as well as a person. And I think if you look at celebrities, like why all of them kind of have a sudden rebellious phase is because of all the expectations that all their fans put on them to be this ideal person. So they just kind of need to really break that mould by doing something completely extreme.  But also, like you’re not responsible for other people’s insecurities, and I don’t know, I feel sorry that you have to feel like there is the need for yourself to minimise your glow just so that you don’t shine so bright.

Kai Xin  35:12

Oh you are making me tear up. Why does this get so heavy? Help

Cheryl  35:24

Virtual hug!

Kai Xin  35:26

Let me grab a tissue. This conversation has taken a turn. We’ll be right back.

Cheryl  35:32

Sorry. That’s my expertise making people cry.

Kai Xin  35:35

Sorry, continue.

Cheryl  35:38

No, I mean, there’s no should or should not because it’s really your journey, but rather learning to own your space. And I think just standing, standing proud probably that long. And yeah, really people’s insecurities are not something that should affect you.

Kai Xin  35:52

Intellectually I know that and I am trying to learn that. I mean, even starting this podcast is a little bit daunting.  Let me blow my nose.

Cheryl  36:09

ASMR to nose blowing begins in 3,2,1.

Kai Xin  36:16

I was saying even starting this podcast is daunting, because I’m putting myself out there. And I mean, you are also putting yourself out there. And I think we, to some extent, want people to learn to very personal experiences or like tough conversations like this right from our guests, or like from both of us. And it puts us okay, I can’t say for you, but I feel like I’m in a very vulnerable position.

Cheryl  36:45

It is very courageous of you also to do that.

Kai Xin  36:49

Hesitating, try to like process? Yeah, I think it’s daunting because for for many years, I have stopped putting myself out there. And in moments when I do, it’s to like, I mean, it’s nothing about me, right? It’s like getting support for maybe fundraising projects, or perhaps its work I feel obligated to because, I mean, like, if our company achieved something, or if me and my co founder choose something. Yeah, like, I feel obligated to publicise it, to share that joy. And I’m struggling a lot. Because I feel like when I do that, I, and then put on a higher pedestal. And it’s very tough for me to come back.

And I’m, then I realised it’s a learning journey to say, I can use or leverage my glow. Or if I were to have a glow, I can leverage that to, to help people. But then also not to be too hard on myself to say it’s my responsibility to help people or it’s my responsibility when somebody else feels bad. And I hope that I can show more sides of me that are vulnerable so that it breaks this stereotype that everybody has on people, like, oh, just because a person is out there. It’s life that I want to lead or like you, you look at them from a place of admiration, rather than inspiration. It’s very different, because admiration is like, wow, you know, I wish I could be like that, versus inspirations like, I can do that. Let me try.

Cheryl  38:39

It gives that sense of empowerment back to the individual. Rather than, like, oh my god, yes. Or like self criticism, right? Like, I suck so bad. Like, I would never be like that person.

Kai Xin  38:50

I also want to just make a disclaimer, it’s not like I am like super successful or anything like that, but it’s just in a closer circle of friends, they seem to think so of me. I just cannot fathom the amount of stress and things that most successful people will go through or I wouldn’t say successful, but people who are more out there who are more exposed. Yeah, I can’t imagine how it’s like for them because I’m not even putting myself out there and I’m really feeling stress. What about them? So, I just want to make sure that I navigate this in a healthy way.  A request also on air: I hope that I can lean on you as a co-host to to pull me when I’m straying off the path or when I’m being too hard on myself or when I get a little bit fuzzy with the situation.

Cheryl  39:46

Yeah, and I think like my only hope for you is that like, I don’t know, like wherever your journey takes you to greater heights and brighter stars and brighter glow is to remain true to yourself, and telling the true story, being always being vulnerable and never ever feel like you need to be perfect and then like painting a fake image of perfection or whatever, you know, being those uptight and snobbish people.

Kai Xin  40:16

Which is why, like shout out to Khema, one of our Dharma friends. I was asking her for advice for his podcast. And she said it shouldn’t feel like a performance. And why it hit me so deeply is because exactly what you said just now, it shouldn’t feel like it is decorated, or I’m putting up a show just because I want to maintain a particular image. I mean, we still want to do quality shows but in terms of like the content, yeah, you get what I mean?  Well, I hope you get the answer from your question about what is something that you don’t know about me that you want to know more about? Can I throw the question back to you?

Cheryl  40:54

Yeah, but I think first and really thanks for answering it, truthfully, and not taking an easy answer. You went through the real answer. So thanks for that. Opening up very courageously.

Kai Xin  41:07

Yeah. Thanks for giving me space.  I think I’ll describe you as like a ball of sunshine. You’re 笑点 (laughing point) is rather low. And it feels like anything makes you happy. I think it’s something that’s very good to have but I also know that of course, there are really downtimes for you as well. And my impression is perhaps you might not necessarily be very ready to show that to people. I do feel like you’re talented. But you also deny that.  Yeah just from your rolling of eyes. And…

Cheryl  41:47

this is so uncomfortable.

Kai Xin  41:54

I feel like sometimes you can downplay your personal strengths or like qualities. You feel like you’re very nua, you’re not a very determined person. But I disagree. I mean, just look at your whole journey of becoming healthier, and your fitness journey, I truly think that it’s not something that everyone can do.  Personally, I’ve tried to keep fit. I mean, ever since I’ve graduated, I haven’t been very actively exercising. But you you stayed true to your word. And it’s like you you set your goal on something or determine and you go all out, you know, I’m not sure whether you see that in yourself. I have a lot of other assumptions. But yes, so these are things.

Cheryl  42:42

A few more! Buying myself time.

Kai Xin  42:45

I feel like you care a lot for others, and you want to hold a space for them. But sometimes it might also come at the expense of, you know, holding space for yourself. And you might downplay some of your qualities, like your good qualities and strengths. When you’re seeing others, right, it’s like, ‘oh, how come they are able to structure their thoughts so well? Or why are they able to answer questions on the fly?’. But I realised the context is very different. Because it’s not that you can’t do it. I mean, you do it really well. But it’s just in a situation or it is a topic that you don’t blossom in, when there’s a there’s a misfit misfit of role, then you would think that you’re not good at it. But it’s not that you’re not good at it. It’s just that you’re in the wrong place. But you have all these good qualities that will make you thrive if you’re in the right place.

Cheryl  43:43

I don’t think these are necessarily assumptions. I think these are more observations, which I think you’re quite right, in pointing out. I think I’m by no means super successful or anything. But I think I do share similarities with you in the sense of the need to downplay a little bit.  So, just for context: I come from a family where,  my sister is not the smartest in terms of grades. We used to get compared a lot and I usually did okay in my exams. Then, like a lot of things as well such as when I was younger, I eat food faster my sister didn’t eat fast and and she would get caned for that. So I think inevitably I was felt like I need to make myself smaller in that childhood context so that she doesn’t get scolded or, you know, get like, reviewed negatively. 

And I think that also comes up in my life now. I feel I really need to kind of attune because I also do not want people to think a certain way of me. And I also do have maybe stronger negative self-talk, maybe some insecurities. So then, I guess that fear of being perceived a certain way, plus my own negative self-talk makes me just very fearful of doing things on my own.  So for example, like this podcast also, I hesitated doing it on my own. And then when you asked me also, like, hesitating so much, because I think the question of like, who would want to listen? Will I be able to produce good enough content, will I be engaging enough? These thoughts were often in my mind, and even up to today, before we were recording, I was stressing over it.

So, I think I’m still working on myself, like trying to, I guess, find what space I should be in to thrive.  But at the same time, also, being patient with myself to really take things one step at a time, because it’s impossible to want to conquer everything at once. And, yeah, it’s just I think, I guess, balancing know that long term, incremental growth, still being courageous enough to put myself out there and trying different things. And being more open to failures, rejections and see where that eventually leads into.

Kai Xin  46:32

I hear that whatever you’re doing stems from a place of care. Like, I mean, it’s quite similar, right? You don’t want to shine so much, because you’re afraid that that might cause other people to have a certain negative repercussions or that there’s some for comparison involved. And you don’t want that. Then at the same time, that’s also you comparing yourself with your own standards. I’m just curious, like, why don’t you want to do things for your own sake? Or just now you mentioned something about, ‘I may not want to start a podcast on my own? I don’t want it.’. Why is that the case?

Cheryl  47:15

Yeah. I don’t know why I always have that feeling of like incompetence, I won’t know how to do it. Yeah. And I think that has stopped me from a lot of things. From along of side hassle, so maybe important decision. Like career decisions, and even I think, even like relationship boundaries that incompetency and feeling not good enough. So I’d rather not pursue it because if I’m involved, I destroy things. It is always a result of comparison. It’s always never about ‘I feel incompetent’, it is always ‘I feel incompetent, as compared to X, Y, Z ideals, expectations, people.’.

Kai Xin  47:18

I wouldn’t say that (you’re incompetent). I mean, going back to admiration versus inspiration, right? Like, would it help to reframe how you compare, because comparison is healthy. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have a benchmark, and we also have like, something better to work towards, right. And it’s how we use that comparison to inch forward rather than slight backwards.

Cheryl  48:40

I think a healthier comparison would be looking at things in a more balanced way, which is not just comparing using my weak spots, but also comparing with my strengths, if it makes sense. So I get a balance, self esteem, rather than one that is leaning towards more negative.

Kai Xin  49:00

Yeah. And then you will realise actually, there are a lot of positive traits that you can compare with. Thanks for sharing.

Cheryl  49:11

Thank you for opening the space as well. And I think you’re very astute in your observations. I think it’s more observations than assumptions because I think they’re fairly accurate.

Kai Xin  49:23

So, what is season one all about?

Cheryl  49:28

The general theme of it is, of course, covering a lot of different areas in life, finance, relationship, career, things that are generally important for us to function as a person in society. But more importantly, really exploring how we can do that with ease and balancing out the demands and the rigour of it to be able to achieve success in any of these areas but doing it in a balanced and happy way. Because after all, we are seeking for practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.

Kai Xin  50:10

Practical that leads to happiness. In terms of the format wise, it would be an alternate between interview style with experts in the field and also chit chat sessions like what we are doing right now to share my perspective on a single topic. And if any of the listeners you have questions that you want us to talk about or discuss, you can subscribe to our telegram channel, and put your comments there any thoughts and key takeaways. Of course, it will be really helpful if you click the subscribe button on Spotify as well as YouTube. And we have a lineup of speakers, Tan Chade-Meng, the author of Search Inside Yourself, as well as the book Joy On Demand. We also have a very popular Buddhist teacher, Sister Sylvia Bay, and we have sister Amy on board as well and many more speakers.  If you would like to hear from other speakers or interesting people you want us to chat with, let us know in telegram channel. Cheryl and I, we wish all of you listening, stay happy, healthy. And if you’re not happy, that’s fine. It’s all part of a process and we are excited to be on this journey with you.

Cheryl  51:25

See you in the next episode. Thank you! Bye bye!


Resources: 

Amaravati Buddhist Monastery (UK)

Article on Spiritual bypassing – I have let go. Or have I?

Article: Which type of Buddhist are you?