This Handful of Leaves episode features Brother Duc Pho, a monastic from Plum Village, discussing the integration of music with mindfulness practice. It explores how music can be a tool to cultivate awareness, embrace emotions, and transform suffering. Brother Duc Pho shares personal insights, such as using mindful songs to calm the mind and the balance between engaging with music and maintaining spiritual discipline. The conversation emphasises joy, community, and intentionality in practice, highlighting the role of music in enhancing both personal growth and collective harmony.
About the Speaker
Brother Đức Phổ (徳普), born in the Netherlands in 1985, first got in contact with Buddhism while traveling in South-East Asia. Later he found a practical and applied form of Buddhism in Plum Village France and has been practicing and building sangha as a lay practitioner in this tradition since 2010 and continues to do so since being ordained as a monastic under Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in 2016. He currently practices with the monastic sangha of Thai Plum Village International Meditation Practice Center in Pak Chong, Thailand.
Brother Duc Pho enjoys sitting meditation and slow walking outside in nature, drinking tea in mindfulness, playing music and offering his presence as an authentic human being and practitioner with people of all ages including young people and children.
Key Takeaways
Mindful Use of Music
Music, when chosen with intention and mindfulness, can support emotional healing, strengthen awareness, and enhance concentration. However, it can also distract or intensify negative emotions if not used carefully.
Interconnectedness through Music
Singing or playing mindful music helps bring people together, fostering harmony and shared energy within communities.
Balancing Joy and Practice
While mindfulness practice often focuses on transforming suffering, it’s essential to cultivate joy to sustain the effort. Music can be a source of joy, grounding practitioners in the present moment and nurturing their journey.
Transcript
Full transcript
[00:00:00] Brother Duc Pho: The mind is a clear blue sky. Thoughts come, thoughts go. Mind is a clear blue sky.
[00:00:11] Jia Yi: Hello and welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical wisdom for a happier life. I’m Jia Yi and I’ll be the guest host for today’s episode. At the time of this recording, Plum Village Sangha has stopped by Singapore for our music tour themed ‘Sound of the Rising Tide’, using music to remind us of our interconnectedness and to embrace joy and pain.
[00:00:34] Jia Yi: That will be the theme for today’s episode. Today we are very fortunate to have Brother Duc Pho with us. Brother Duc Pho was born in the Netherlands in 1985 and first got in contact with Buddhism while travelling in Southeast Asia. He currently practices with the monastic Sangha of Thai Plum Village International Meditation Practice Centre in Pak Chong, Thailand. Thank you for being with us on this episode.
[00:00:58] Brother Duc Pho: Thank you so much for having me, inviting me.
[00:01:00] Jia Yi: So, first question will be a very fun question. If you were to pick a song or music instrument to best describe you, what would it be?
[00:01:10] Brother Duc Pho: The mind is a clear blue sky. The mind is a clear blue sky. Thoughts come, thoughts go. Mind is a clear blue sky. And the song continues including feelings come and go. So I think as practitioners of meditation, I try to let go about the story about myself and not get too caught up in my own story and my own identity. So this is a song that reminds me that who I am is changing every moment.
[00:01:46] Brother Duc Pho: In terms of instruments, like guitar is the instrument I’ve been playing most of my life, I cannot say I am a guitar. Maybe there are some days I am a small ukulele, some days I am a big double bass, and some moments I will be in tune, some moments I will be out of tune. Sometimes I might forget that, so this song is a reminder to look at the changing nature of myself.
[00:02:07] Jia Yi: Plum Village has taken the unique approach of using mindfulness as a mindfulness tool to help anyone apply the teachings in daily life. Could you share with me your personal journey on how music has integrated into your mindfulness practice?
[00:02:23] Brother Duc Pho: One thing we use in our mindfulness practice is poems we call gathas. They go with certain daily action or with breathing, help us guide our breathing. And many of those have been set to music and they can come from village songs. They’re very simple, like children’s songs, easy to stick into your mind.
[00:02:45] Brother Duc Pho: So there is a song, ‘In, Out, Deep, Slow, Calm, Ease, Smile, Release.’ It’s something I use, in the evening when I go to bed, when I go to sleep. I will silently recite that song to myself and breathe with it. If I don’t do that, I might have a lot of thinking over and over the day, what did I do well, or what’s going to happen.
[00:03:11] Jia Yi: Has it ever happened where, even in the mindful music that you listen to, has it become an obstacle?
[00:03:18] Brother Duc Pho: With this kind of music, I don’t mind. If my mind is not popping up in music, it will pop up with some thoughts, some worry or some feeling. And my practice is just to look at it and see it as it is.
[00:03:32] Brother Duc Pho:And if I feel there’s something there, I try to look up, where has it come from? Why in this moment? What is something I saw, heard or smelled or sensed that brings up this memory from my consciousness? So I will learn something, and then, you know, we have the meditation practice, like following our breathing to quiet down our mind.
[00:03:54] Brother Duc Pho: So yeah, I’m not bothered by this. If it’s a happy song, a mindful song that comes up, I’m happy for it to be there. If you cling on to it, it will also pass away.
[00:04:05] Jia Yi: Then when might music become an obstacle for our mindfulness or concentration?
[00:04:11] Brother Duc Pho: I think music can take us in many different directions. In our minds, we all have good seeds; we have wholesome seeds and unwholesome seeds. Outside of the monastery, outside of spiritual practice, people say music is a way to express myself. But as practitioner, we have to be really aware of what we expressing and what are we taking in.
[00:04:34] Brother Duc Pho: Sometimes we have negative feelings, negative thoughts, and we use music, either we play it or we listen to it. We just make that feeling stronger, and it’s not taking us in a wholesome direction. For sure, many of them are good people, but they also have suffering and desire, like we all have. This can bring up emotions of anger, confusion or desire. So for sure, that’s an obstacle to our concentration and meditation. We can use it as a way to cover up, like we feel lonely or down. And we put on music because we don’t want to be with that feeling, but in fact, the feeling will just get stronger.
[00:05:11] Brother Duc Pho: So what we try with mindfulness is that we choose the kind of music and the lyrics that will water the good seeds in us. That will strengthen our awareness, our stability, and help us not run away from our emotions, but to be with them and embrace them. Look deeply at what’s the cause. In that way, it can contribute to our awareness, concentration.
[00:05:36] Brother Duc Pho: I think it’s two aspects: what we choose to listen to? What do we choose to play? And then the other is what the intention and awareness we bring to the actual playing and listening. Even though I’m a monk practicing daily, there might still be moments where I pick up a guitar just to distract myself. But as a monastic, I don’t want to live like that. I want to have a more mindful and awakened life. So I choose properly when I want to play what I want.
[00:06:04] Jia Yi: Some lay practitioners wish to deepen their practice by observing the eight precepts. One of the precepts state to refrain from entertainment, which includes dancing, singing and playing music. So will playing music be at odds with their practice?
[00:06:20] Brother Duc Pho: I think in Buddhism, we are very lucky to have a variety of traditions and practices. When we take the eight precepts, for monastics, we’ll cut off all music that is not chanting. I can really understand and respect that choice and practice. The Plum Village tradition, we have a precept about not listening or playing love songs or music that water negative emotions in us. And I think to me, this is quite in spirit of Mahayana Buddhism, which has been to different places and cultures over time. Some current Mahayana chanting, now very traditional, was actually at the time Sutras and Buddhist prayers turned to the music of the day.
[00:07:11] Brother Duc Pho: Applying different forms of music to Buddhism and to meditation practice have been happening all the time. For some people, they’re happy to take that in, open to that, to benefit from that , welcome to practice that. For others who wish to live a more silent life, to not have to choose what to listen to and what not to listen to, like, kind of completely, I can also understand.
[00:07:35] Brother Duc Pho: I have periods in my monastic life where I’m a bit involved with music too much, but I feel I need more silence. Music can come up at any time and bring up memories. Sometimes in our monastery, meditating on one of the hills the neighbours or workers have music on, it’s so hard to block it out even if it’s another language I cannot understand, but the melody, like my brain starts to follow right-away.
[00:08:01] Brother Duc Pho: That can be a distraction. Over the past years as a monastic, I’ve been replacing more and more music from the past with meditation music. Sometimes we take songs from the past and change the lyrics.
[00:08:14] Brother Duc Pho:The main thing when we practice mindfulness and meditation is to be continuous aware of what is going on in our mind. As musicians, we have habits from the past, like when I play music, it should be beautiful and get obsessed over that. So that’s another thing to take care of and to remember that the purpose is to practice and offer the Dharma to people. In Singapore and in a big city like this, probably at the same time, there are at least 20 other concerts.
[00:08:40] Brother Duc Pho: The musicians, they can play better than us. We offer our practice and offer the transmission we received from the Buddha and our teacher, in the songs. In Buddhism we speak of the three complexes, superiority complex, inferiority complex, equality complex. Superiority complex would be, “Oh, I’m so special to be on stage.”
[00:09:03] Brother Duc Pho: It’s very dangerous for a monk because we don’t want to cultivate that kind of mind. It’s not about us. It’s about being with the people and offering our practice. Inferiority complex, at any level of music we play, we might feel that we should be able to do better, maybe because we studied music in the past and, should be at this level. Or maybe because I’m playing an instrument that I just started learning. So, okay, there’s people in the audience who can see that I’m still not so skilled at it. So this feeling, can take care of our practice. Equality complex: “I should have as much time on stage as the other players”. We’re working with all of that as we do this tour.
[00:09:41] Jia Yi: That’s such an interesting concept to break down different states of mind, the sense of self with three types of complex. Could you share some examples of how one can skilfully use music to heal their pain?
[00:09:57] Brother Duc Pho: I have one memory, the reading of the poetry of our teacher, the late Thich Nhat Hanh, and also play different piece of music. Some are just instrumental classical piece. Some are poems put to music. One evening like that in our monastery in Germany, called the European Institute of Applied Buddhism.
[00:10:18] Brother Duc Pho: And actually that monastery is housed in a building where during the Second World War, the Nazis took over that building, which was a hospital for handicapped people. So there’s a lot of suffering in that. And for a long time, nobody wants to use it, until our teacher said, that will be the building for our monastery in Germany.
[00:10:38] Brother Duc Pho: And then the Sangha moved in. I’ve done a lot of ceremonies and chanting to transform that suffering. So just being there together after 10 years and celebrating the 10 year anniversary. At the time I was a participant, just sitting in meditation throughout the evening and it was a really deep experience where I could feel very clearly the aspiration of my teacher to open a monastery in that place.
[00:11:03] Brother Duc Pho: And where I also, you know, as I’m mostly from the Netherlands, so that part of the history of Europe is also in me and my ancestors. I also make a personal determination to when the time is right to go there and contribute.
[00:11:15] Brother Duc Pho: One song that speaks to this is, ‘Hello, hello, something in me, I am aware that you are there, I’m sure you’ve got a good reason to be. Hello, hello, something in me, I am aware that you are in there, And I’m going to keep you company.’ To me, what the song speaks about is that, we might have feelings come up, like painful feelings to a breakup or otherwise feelings of separation. And sometimes we’re very quick to say, ‘ I feel like this because this happened and that person did that.’ The practice invites me to just be aware of the feeling as it is in my body and try to not push it away.
[00:12:07] Brother Duc Pho: Because with the tendency of my mind, I might always want to run away from feelings. So to use my breathing to be with that feeling, I can really be there for it in that way, really be there for myself. We know that in life there will be suffering, there will be difficult feelings, but we can learn how to be with and take care of.
[00:12:31] Brother Duc Pho: And, of course, at some point we look into what it is and where it comes from, but if we’re too quick with giving it a label, maybe we don’t see the full picture. And it’s just another way to kind of, okay, have my smart analysis, and then it’s gone. So this feeling comes up, if I look into it, I can learn something from it. And that is kind of the transformation and the growth we have in our practice, when we can be with difficult sensations.
[00:13:05] Brother Duc Pho: That’s been a helpful practice. And this song is actually written by a lady teacher in our tradition, and that’s from my home country. But now it’s on and practiced by many people around the world.
[00:13:17] Jia Yi: Really beautiful. Do you have any final advice or thoughts for individuals on their journey to practice mindfulness?
[00:13:26] Brother Duc Pho: The practice of Buddhism and meditation doesn’t have to be too serious. We talk a lot about suffering and about transforming suffering. And of course, this is the important work we want to do because we want liberation. But we need enough energy and enough joy to face difficulties in our own life and in society.
[00:13:52] Brother Duc Pho: Music can play a big role to sustain our mindfulness practice. Whether you’re learning new instruments or learning to sing or studying your mindful songs, you need joy to sustain that effort. Just play, enjoy and keep checking in with your own mind. Like what is going into my mind and my feeling in my body while I’m singing listening to this, while I’m playing, your body will tell you if you’re on the right path and you need to adjust.
[00:14:24] Brother Duc Pho: Many artists are doing this already. So if you go online, like Plum Village does many songs on YouTube, Spotify Yeah, actually, I think in Asia, there’s different Buddhist traditions. There are many groups that are applying music, so find the right examples. I connect with friends who have the same aspiration to do it together.
[00:14:50] Brother Duc Pho: Music is a strong power to sustain our practice. We need Sangha, a community. Music and singing is a great way to bring people together. We harmonise the different voices and the different bodies and minds. Remember we have our life in the city, we come from different corners, different things on our mind, but when we sing the same song, come together, it gives us the energy to flow and support each other.
[00:15:12] Jia Yi:Music can be skilfully used as a form of mindfulness, with wholesome lyrics to help us bring our awareness to the present moment address feelings of pain and be more accepting of it, and perhaps to even use it as a way to learn from our feelings. Mindful music can help build faith in the Triple Gem and bring more joy in our daily life. Till the next episode, may you stay wise and happy.
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen, Nai Kai Lee
Editor and transcriber of this episode:
Hong Jia Yi, Ang You Shan, Tan Si Jing, Bernice Bay, Cheryl Cheah
TLDR: Taylor Swift, despite being a global music superstar and billionaire, is not beyond suffering. Using songs to transform her struggles, she inspires people to use the power of love, appreciation, letting go, and transformation to soften the inevitable challenges in life.
Would being rich and successful in life make us suffering-free? Going through life, most of us dream of being rich, thinking that money will solve all our problems, okay, maybe not all, but most of them anyway.
Taylor Swift, an international music superstar is rich and successful in her own right, but as with everyone else, has her own set of worldly problems, such as challenges with finding a long-term romantic partner, and health trials of loved ones – both of her parents have had cancer.
By facing her challenges in life, she was able to transform her pain and suffering into inspirational music, to help her move on, and inspire others in turn. I listened to some of her songs and was inspired to reflect on how we can let our challenges in life transform us into better people.
Joy, Heartbreaks, and Triumphs:
Image Credit: Taylor Swift
Finding a romantic partner in one’s life is a natural thing to do, and the joy and happiness over meeting a potential date is exhilarating, however, we are not guaranteed success in our quest to meet our significant other.
When I was younger and actively seeking out love, I was enthralled with Swift’s Love Story – I was very inspired to find my own Juliet or Romeo, depending on my feelings. Do we close off our hearts after rejections and heartbreaks? It depends on you.
For Taylor Swift, despite numerous heartbreaks, she chooses to heal up and choose to love again.
In recovering from challenges, Swift reminds us that we are quite Delicate and need to be gentle with ourselves. Choosing to love oneself and prioritizing one’s well-being is an important part of the process. In the Karaṇīya Metta Sutta – The Buddha’s Words on Loving-Kindness, there is the stanza:
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded…
I find that the Karaṇīya Metta Sutta reminds us to spread love to everyone, including ourselves, especially ourselves, I would emphasise.
Sometimes, challenges seem to continue, long after we thought we had the strength to hold on, and we find ourselves asking ourselves, Are we Out of the Woods? In Buddhism, we learn that everything is impermanence, so yes, things will change, and get better or worse, so we just hang in there a bit longer, just a tad bit longer.
Appreciation:
image source: Taylor Swift – The Best Day (Taylor’s Version) (Official Music Video)
In her song, The Best Day, we get a glimpse down memory lane, of how her parents, Scott and Andrea Swift, have been a great source of support and encouragement to her and her brother, Austin, growing up.
Taylor Swift’s appreciation, love, and recognition of her parent’s sacrifices and contributions towards moulding her to be who she is today would win the approval and endorsements of Asian parents everywhere. A+ for Taylor Swift!
As we journey on the Buddha’s path, we may want to share the Dhamma with our parents too, to honour their contributions, but how? We are probably not musically talented enough to show our love and concern to our parents in a song like Soon You’ll Get Better.
I remembered the time when Ajahn Brahm suggested leaving Dhamma books around on the coffee table, so our family members could check it out.
I was a little skeptical of this initially but I am heartened to see that my father did read some of the Dhamma books that I left behind and even asked me to bring more Dhamma books home to Malaysia whenever I visit my parents.
Swift’s Long Live song reminds us that we should appreciate and value the friends who had journeyed through life with us and remember their contributions.
Letting Go:
Taylor Swift in the album artwork for Red (Taylor’s Version).
Impermanence is part and parcel of our life. Swift’s song Everything Has Changed, drives this point home. Of course, we usually hope the change is for the better.
However, hanging on to something that has passed its time and value is suffering. There is always something new to look forward to in our life.
Can you recall the time when you hung on to the past? How has it helped you?
In the song, Back to December, Swift highlights that there will be moments in life where we make mistakes and we have to learn the lessons – to swallow our pride, to say sorry to someone, to forgive ourselves, and to reflect on how we can do better in one’s life.
Being stuck in life can be tough, we lose the momentum to pick ourselves up and push on again. Swift’s Shake It Off song visually reminds us to get moving to move on. Take time to heal up but do move on eventually.
Running a marathon may be too hard when we are feeling depressed, but we can consider doing walking meditation for a start.
We may get so lost in our thoughts, that we disconnect from our body. Hence, light exercises are also recommended by mental health professionals for those dealing with depression and other mental health challenges.
Transformation:
image source: bbc.com | Beth Garrabrant
Can we start again with a “new life” like a computer game character, after we fail in the quest, the first time around? Begin Again reminds us that there is always an opportunity to start anew in our life’s adventure and have a Clean start.
It is expected to have some fear and trepidation after facing some setbacks, but it is okay to pick ourselves up again and rejoin the journey when we are ready to continue.
Just think of a setback you had 1 year ago, I am sure back then, you may have cried, got angry at the unfairness of the incident, and may have sought out comfort and care from friends or family members, but now, having grown and gotten over the incident, you are much stronger and better now.
In the song, Look What You Made Me Do, Swift reminds us that we can always stop doing what we have been doing and take steps to transform and better ourselves.
In the story of Angulimala, the serial killer that Buddha was able to stop from further killing, we can stop our unwholesome behaviours, be reminded of the Buddhanature within ourselves, and walk the Noble Eightfold path to get out of the cycle of samsara.
As a reader of the Handful of Leaves (HOL) blog, you are already walking on the path of transformation, upgrading your understanding of the Buddha’s teachings, and working on applying them in your daily life. Keep up the good work and keep reading HOL articles or listen to the HOL podcast.
Music can be a powerful medium to help us navigate through the ups and downs in life. Whether you are a Swiftie fan or not, hopefully, you glean some inspiration from her songs on how we can use our life challenges to propel us forward.
Wise Steps:
Put yourself first – seek out ways to love yourself. If you meet someone who loves you back, that is a bonus.
Mother’s Day and Father’s Day are coming up, show your gratitude and bring them closer to the Dhamma by bringing your parents out to participate in the Vesak events where they may be inspired by Buddhist music and Dhamma activities.
Get inspired by Dhamma music, Buddhist musicians such as Malaysian singer, composer, and producer Imee Ooi; Indonesian Dhamma speaker and musician Irvyn Wongso; and Nepalese nun Ani Choying Drolma have moved many people’s hearts with their songs. You may be interested to learn more about some of the Buddhist chants after hearing them sung so beautifully too.
Imee Ooi is a Chinese-Malaysian record producer, composer, and singer who composes and arranges music for classic Buddhist chant, mantra, and dharani. She performs her compositions in Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, and Mandarin. In 1997 she founded a record label, I.M.M. Musicworks, to publish her music. She has released more than 50 albums (55 between 1998 and 2020). She has also composed and directed three highly acclaimed stage musicals: Siddhartha, Above Full Moon, and Princess Wen Cheng (aka Jewel of Tibet). More about Imee Ooi https://www.immmusic.com/imee-ooi
Transcript
[00:00:00] Cheryl:
Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. My name is Cheryl and today we’re back with another episode. With me, I have Sister Imee. She is a wonderfully renowned Buddhist music composer. I am very excited today because I’m such a big fan of her. I have listened to so much of her music and it’s brought me through a lot, a lot of dark periods in my life. I will hand over the stage to her to introduce herself.
[00:00:25] Imee:
Hello, everybody. Hi, Cheryl. I’m Imee Ooi, 黄慧音. I’m a Buddhist musician, composer, and also a singer. You probably have heard some of my ancient work. When I say ancient, it’s more than 25 years. Like the Chant of Metta, the Heart Sutra, Prajna Paramita, and Om Mane Padme Hum to name a few. I would like to say good evening to everyone. Hope I’m sending Metta from Kuala Lumpur to all around the world.
[00:00:54] Cheryl:
Wow. It’s amazing. I think even as you’re sharing, I already feel so much Metta radiating from you.
[00:01:00] Imee:
Because you feel Metta inside you. So everybody who has a kind heart and promotes peace and harmony will naturally have it inside them, right?
[00:01:09] Cheryl:
Yes. We would love to understand a little bit more about your personal journey of how you became a Buddhist musician.
[00:01:17] Imee:
Well, this is not a plan. When I was young, people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I was naturally thinking of becoming a music teacher, or a piano teacher because my mother was a music teacher back then in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. So we have a music school back in our hometown. All we sisters and brothers, we learned the piano. So until then, I never thought I could compose music or even sing. Of course, we sing at home when we play the piano. We do have a lot of fun evening family mini-concerts at home. Since then, we have been exposed to a lot of good music, especially Disney music, and musicals from cartoons. Also from the pop industry and also Christian songs, because once you love music, you tend to look for songs to sing. Yes. When we play piano, we are always playing classical music. Eventually, we also learned the electone organ. The Yamaha electone was very, very popular back then.
[00:02:22] Cheryl:
Is it the double-tier one?
[00:02:24] Imee:
Oh, yes. You have a rhythm box. Then you can have a flute. You have strings. Besides piano, you are also able to use other instruments and then you can make your simple arrangement. It’s a one-man band. It was so enjoyable for kids and teenagers like us back then in the seventies and eighties.
So back to the question. I stumbled upon writing a Buddhist Sutra. Actually, the first piece was the Sanskrit Heart Sutra, the Prajñāpāramitā given to me by a director. I think he was very into Buddhist studies in Sanskrit. He also noticed that there is a lot of good Christian music, you know, gospel music, but there isn’t much Buddhist music that you can sing or play in the house as background music. Most of our Buddhist music then was more for rituals or for ceremonies. So maybe more traditional. So then I was very happy when I saw the schedule. I have not even learned Sanskrit, but it’s not very difficult for us Malaysians or even Singaporeans. So we picked up Sanskrit very easily from, of course, a good teacher. Naturally, when I know how to pronounce all of them, I find that it is very challenging for me to compose a song. Since then I was just a teacher, but I always aspired to be a composer. So I thought, well, to be able to put musical notes, phrases, and melodies into such a long, foreign, ancient, sacred text, it is such an honor. So I did that. Then I sang as well, instead of looking for a singer, I sang myself and then it turned out quite well. The result was very, very pleasing to a lot of people’s ears. This was one of my very first Dhamma music. Even in those days before the internet was very widely used, it went all the way to China and even to Europe and so many places.
I think it’s the strength of the Sanghas and also the Buddhist disciples, Buddhist laymen, and laywomen, once they get hold of a nice Heart Sutra version, they want to spread it and share it. It’s like the nature of us Buddhist brothers and sisters. After that, one after another, The Chant of Metta, then the Heart Sutra in Mandarin, then Om Mane Padme Hum, all the mantras that you can think of from the main Bodhisattvas and the three Buddhas, Medicine Buddha, Amitabha, everything just came. From three lineages also, I get a lot of requests. So this is my journey and it is like no turning back until today since 1998, I think. Along that journey, I also got the opportunity to write for three very scale musicals, Siddhartha, and then Master Hongyi Above Full Moon, and also Princess Wencheng. This is all Buddhist history where I could present my dedication in musical notes, and this is my journey until now.
[00:05:25] Cheryl:
Thank you so much for sharing. And I’m also very, very curious, what drew you to Buddhism and what was your journey in Buddhism actually?
[00:05:34] Imee:
Okay, what drew me into Buddhism, actually, it’s the music I wrote. Then I started to realize that, oh, I can actually practice Buddhism instead of just praying. During our young days, it was more like a culture. We just burn joss sticks, then certain festivals, then we have a lot of fruits and flowers to offer, but it never occurred in my mind that there is this deep philosophy or deep wisdom that is so practical to our daily life and even so useful for us to deal with all the negativities and emotions, love and hatred, everything. We could find the answer to ease ourselves from all these pains and suffering from this religion. So, well it changed my perspective of religion right away after I wrote the music. When the music is popular, you tend to meet a lot of Buddhist practitioners, then you meet a lot of monks and nuns. You open up to compassion mindfulness, giving, and patience, you name it, you know, all the good things in this one horizon that you always bump into these people. That’s where you can learn and ask your question in life.
[00:06:53] Cheryl:
Was there a particular time in your life when you felt the Buddhist teachings really helped you tremendously?
[00:07:01] Imee:
If you want to mention one is probably what has just happened this year. My parents, my mom, and my dad, passed away simultaneously within three weeks. First, my father caught COVID and then he went to the hospital and he came back but he never recovered because all his energy and his body had already been exhausted by the attack of his lungs and even his brain. So he passed on. And then my mom followed on three weeks later. My mom was sick with cancer, but she was still well, but I think because of this sadness of my father, then, you know, it just suddenly sped up everything. She also felt that, you know her meaning of life is different now.
And also because she practices Buddhism, she feels like she’s not afraid of releasing her body’s pain. She was in pain because she was in the last stage of cancer and she refused to go into any other treatment because she thought that she was already very old and there was no point in exhausting everybody’s energy. But of course, she went to a little treatment to make herself feel easier. Like when her lungs are filled with water, she has to drain it out. Those procedures that she has to do to make sure that she breathes properly. But I think she made up her mind. So what I saw in my mother’s bravery and her decision to let go just like that and let her body take its own course, was like a big awakening to me. Like, I’m going to tell my mom how we’re going to miss her and ask her to hang on and things like that.
There was this part that I think, well, am I going to be very selfish or I should just let my mom go, and maybe there’s another place? So I should release her as my mom, now she probably wants to be reborn as another being in another better place. She’s becoming an individual all over again. Our 缘分, our affinity as mother and daughter will come to an end very soon. The first five months of this in 2023 everything was very intensive, you can be very calm and poised in managing things, but deep inside you the night sinks in, everybody is asleep you feel like your mom and dad are walking towards the end of their life. There’s always this pain. You have to come to an acceptance that this is it. Time is up.
[00:09:20] Cheryl:
And what helped you through those moments of pain and perhaps loneliness as well?
[00:09:26] Imee:
Not so much loneliness because we were very busy then because we all stayed in the same place. So no loneliness. The sense of responsibility takes over. It’s like being the eldest in the home, not only do you have to make sure everything is in place, but you feel like sometimes we let other people suffer or we sort of take it for granted that people will do it or people can just figure it out, but when all the responsibility comes upon you, then you will notice that even this little, little things, a cup of tea in time or a little care just at the right moment is so important. So I think the sense of responsibility took over my whole head and body. I don’t feel anything. There wasn’t any pain except when I wanted to sleep in, and there would be this split second when the reality sank in. But other than that, it’s like you are just living in the moment. You take care of everything, minute by minute, hour by hour, you have to sort it out. You become so selfless. I realized that I don’t think of myself, whether I’m tired or I’m busy or I have not eaten or I have not bathed. All these things when it falls in place, it is there. If it is not there, there are always other things that are more important.
[00:10:44] Cheryl:
I recently watched a movie about people, the last moments of their deaths, and their loved ones just being around them. And there was this quote that really stuck with me. And he was saying that because our parents have a body, they have to pass away, but love doesn’t have a body. So love will always continue to live on, even though the parents, ‘ physical form has gone away.
[00:11:09] Imee:
Yeah, of course, but the more important thing is, what are you going to do with this love for your parents? It’s not just in loving memory, or you just remember them during an anniversary, or just the rituals, or you just look at the pictures and then you talk about the past. If you think there’s so much love that’s passed on, it’s important to continue the legacy of your parents, the good attitudes and habits of your parents. I am not a very romantic person or emotional person. I will write all the beautiful words in memory of my mom, but I am not so much into that, what did my father and mother leave behind that I can use to grow into a better person and let them be proud of me as a daughter, and also what I can do for them to the society. Recently, I posted about an article I wrote in remembrance of my parents and I was thinking, what can I give with this story besides my words? I also shot a lot of my mom’s paintings, about 8 to 10 of them and I post them together. I say this is what my mom painted for us and for a lot of my fans too. Now I’m putting it on Facebook. Whoever wants to download it, can use it.
So whenever I remember my parents, I will remember their virtues. Rather thanthe love that lives on. I think love doesn’t have to be measured. In fact, sometimes I think I don’t want to be so attached and keep thinking of the love. The love has to be spread out, and shared by many other people. So I want to think what did my father leave behind, his virtues? It could be like a physical thing. Like my mom, she left a lot of paintings. She left a lot of nice cooking recipes, she cooks so well. I think that I want to cook it every Chinese New Year for our family. These are simple things that you need to put into action rather than all the text and stickers and just words.
[00:13:06] Cheryl:
Yeah, in a way, it’s very tangible, right?
[00:13:09] Imee:
Tangible and people can use it or even taste it and touch it. Amazing. That’s the way I want to express it.
[00:13:18] Cheryl:
Thanks for the free-flow conversation. We go into a lot of these beautiful perspectives exploring our loved ones and the virtues that they leave behind that we can bring forward and express to the world as well. Moving back to maybe some of the questions related to your journey as a musician. I think you have been a musician for about 26 years.
[00:13:39] Imee:
Yes. As a Buddhist musician, but before that, in fact, since 18 years old, I was already teaching and writing some simple songs. I started very early. When I was 18, I had a batch of five to six students. They were like about five years younger than me. Now they already have families and they’re all doing very well in music too. So they’re all over the world. We still keep in touch. Even for some of my concerts, I will also ask them to help me do some arrangements.
[00:14:09] Cheryl:
If we zoom into your career as a Buddhist musician what were some of the challenges that you faced?
[00:14:18] Imee:
Okay. Many have. asked me about these challenges, but if I said none, it would sound very unbelievable. But there is a reason why I say there’s none because I never plan to succeed in a certain way or I will never think that I have to be doing so well and I need to be famous. So It’s very much living in the now. If you are only 30% good, but you do it wholeheartedly, then it is a hundred percent result of the moment. In Mandarin, I would say 每一次都是满分的因为我用完我的心. Heart Sutra says, 心无挂碍, 无挂碍故,无有恐怖. There’s no fear and there’s no challenges because I feel that in Buddhist text and this sacred text, there’s no way you can fix the best melody to it because these are boundless wisdom. Maybe in the future, there’ll be even more people coming to make it even better. So without any burden of like, what are the challenges? Because when you say there are challenges means you want to make it good, real good. But if you let go of all these whatever you do to the best, if it’s no good, if it’s meant to fail, then let it fail. So I adopt that kind of mentality.
So in that case, I felt that the whole journey of production was very smooth. Even when I record singing, I don’t want to have so much fuss about it, I got to rest, I got to drink some honey, or I got to meditate. But I think I want to be just a normal person, but the sense of responsibility is like, I still have to take care of so many other things, cannot be let letting other people give me the convenience and then they suffer and they got to run all over to do things just because they want to give me a good condition to record my so-called very important sacred song of Guan Yin. But if you are Guan Yin, you should be helping other people, you have no condition. With that kind of little understanding or enlightening wisdom that I adopted, I found that I have no challenges. There was not once that, I thought that it gave me a lot of stress that I wanted to throw away, and then I still couldn’t get the right note. I’ve done enough for it. Okay. Because I got so many requests, I cannot be mulling on one for a long, long time. So if that one doesn’t work, let’s say I only have five people liking it instead of 500 or 5, 000 people, then so be it. So it’s like 佛说:只能要渡一个有缘人就够了.
I think if you ask for challenges there’s not much. Also, I don’t know what will be the benchmark of good Buddhist music. There is none. I think this is a very universal thing that each and every piece of Buddhist music that goes out, will naturally find a listener who can embrace it and use it for their own healing, calming themselves or even feeling joyful about it.
[00:17:14] Cheryl:
I think it’s so inspiring because the music that you create really goes right into people’s hearts and speaking from my own experience, I feel that it just goes into my hardware. That melting kind of experience where my anxiety just melts away. Perhaps the reason is that when you create this music, there’s no attachment, no expectations. So it flows through to the listeners as well.
[00:17:39] Imee:
I feel that the reason why my music can penetrate well, perhaps it’s because I never thought so. It’s like every one of the volunteers, everybody holds their position and they have their responsibility in every corner of this world. So I think my part is perhaps because people like my voice and it happened that my voice and my composition and my music arrangement seem to blend well as a whole. I’m blessed.
[00:18:09] Cheryl:
Has there been a time when you felt that maybe this fame is a little bit too much or anything like that?
[00:18:18] Imee:
No, no. In fact, I need more because it’s very difficult. This so-called fame and celebrity status, if there’s one even exists. Over the years people have heard my music, but don’t really know who is behind this because I never show my face in my album most of the time. Only in 2015 when I had my first concert, that people know this is what Imee looks like. In fact, I think I can do with more because I didn’t misuse it.
So I don’t mind more fame because I’m very confident and I’m very stable in the ego part, maybe, I’m stable. And also because of my age, I’m not like a young person anymore. I’m not guaranteeing, I don’t know, maybe five years down the road, suddenly I become somebody very snobbish. Then you better give me a big knock on the head. So in that sense, I think we can do with more because I think we need more people to listen to Buddhist music because young Buddhists are declining in numbers. And more and more people not coming into the monastery or Buddhist centres. But I’m not very worried about that. It’s just a matter of time before we change ways. Maybe we just use other ways. We should open more windows and doors.
Back to whether this pressured me, no, I think I can do with more fame and publicity so that the music can go further. In fact, until now, a lot of people who have heard of my music, don’t know I’m in Malaysia. They thought that I was from China, Taiwan, or somewhere. They don’t even know the people behind the music, but I’m happy. I think in Buddhist music, it’s not like pop music. People want to know who is the singer, like Taylor Swift or BTS. But in Buddhist music, it’s not. People just want to listen to the mantra. It’s the sound by itself. It’s the vibration. Not many people care like who is the composer? The credit doesn’t matter much. So I think if I want to inspire more young talents who want to come to this, you must be prepared for this. You might not be well-known. Your name might not be known, but are you willing to put up with this, that is not for yourself, fame, or celebrity status?
Actually, everything is in the Dhamma as I learned. Obviously, I want to practice what I have learned. When I started 30 years ago, I was already 30 years old. So it’s not like you’re still mentally not very mature. Maybe it’s also my character and also my mom and dad’s education. We were always trying to be humble and helpful to other people. So I think this also helps. So I can’t tell you one reason why I’m not carried away. Although I enjoy the limelight, of course, I enjoy the limelight, when you stand on stage and being recognized. It’s not because I’m famous, I’ve got a very good voice or I’m pretty, but it’s that kind of satisfaction. Just like a Sangha, when you give a sermon and a lot of people use it in their daily life, or you give a retreat and these people come back to tell you it’s so, so usable. The Dalai Lama is very famous. Mm. Thich Nhat Hanh is very famous. Venerable Hsing Yun is very famous. They are the model that I want to follow. Eventually, whether I’m ordained or not, I want to be the next example of what they are. Just give up whatever they can do for the Dhamma.
[00:21:46] Cheryl:
Wow. That’s so beautiful. Some of our subscribers, actually asked what gave you inspiration for the music.
[00:21:54] Imee:
Just the text itself. I was always saying, what more can be more inspiring than the Dhamma itself? So I don’t want to source from outside. Since I take it as a responsibility, it’s my work. How am I going to present this mantra or sutra? So the mantra of the sutra has to be the one that inspires me because that is the thing that I need to reach out to many people. So how am I going to relate it and present it in my own way?
And the thought of sharing it with more people. When I wrote the Heart Sutra in Mandarin, it went on to Taiwan and it was one of the best sales of the record company. And the 大悲咒, the Great Compassion Mantra. But eventually when the famous singer 齐豫, she was singing pop all these years and then she wanted to sing Buddhist music. For her first album, she asked for my copyright for two of my songs. One of them is 心经 (Heart Sutra). So I was very happy because she has got millions of fans all over the world. Her effort of singing Heart Sutra will reach out to more. That’s why coming back to your question here, the inspiration should be based on how far it can reach out to people. The gem is right in front of you that you need to deliver out.
[00:23:15] Cheryl:
The gem in itself is already shining.
[00:23:17] Imee:
Yeah. So brightly. It’s right in front of you. You want to create a tool to present it. It’s not like you have to find something nice in your life, some environment, nothing. Nothing is as important as just carrying out this mission of yours. Yeah. So, I put myself in a different position, it is quite different when you want to write a pop song and when you want to write a love song. Perhaps the thing itself, it’s emotional. I say it is 梦幻泡影 (illusionary). Then you’ve got to go and find somewhere that makes you even more emotional. But whatever you have the text of the Dhamma right in front of you is the truth. So the truth is just one. So there’s no other way to support it. Other than you just have to focus and do your best.
[00:24:10] Cheryl:
Yeah. Can you share a story that you remember of the most profound impact that your music has had on someone?
[00:24:17] Imee:
Wow. Okay. Before Facebook, all the so-called sharing of experiences, listening to my music, like the impact that you’re talking about has to be either from email or a letter with a stamp on it, sent all the way from Germany, from Italy, from Argentina, from China, right to my mailbox. After the 9/11 incident, I got an email from an American. He’s a jazz musician and a veteran, and he works in a church near the World Trade Center. The church was open to injured people and even dead people. He told me that the church actually used one of my Buddhist music because they realized that the people who came to look for help might not be just Christians or Catholics. It can be people from all faiths. So they played one of the Sutras. I think it’s the Ratana Sutra. He said he didn’t know anything about Pali. I think he went to search for my music and then he went to Chinatown and coincidentally, he heard my Heart Sutra in Mandarin. He said, what is this 揭諦!揭諦!波羅揭諦!(Sanskrit: Gate, gate Pāragate)? It sounds very ancient to him.
He then deduced that what he heard in Chinatown and this Ratana Sutta were sung by the same person, the same voice. So he said, Hey, I got to look for this lady. Who is she? He thinks that my music has some kind of, in his words, magical power that you can just absorb and get healed immediately. So yeah, he said, many people actually listened to the Ratana Sutta. During, I think a mass prayer, they just play their hymns, then they play my Buddhist song. Eventually, we became good friends. We share a lot and he also practiced a lot of Dhamma things, although he’s a Catholic. He also shared with me a lot of experience being a jazz musician in America who is quite well known. Of course, he shared with me what happened in the church when they played this song too.
[00:26:05] Cheryl:
So can you share a few?
[00:26:06] Imee:
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but free-thinkers who, after they listened to the music, started to learn Buddhism, in Mandarin we say 渡到的人. Or people who have converted from Christianity to Buddhism, or they’ve embraced both because they think that these two religion does not really clash. They share the same universal love. So a lot of these inspiring stories. But a lot of touching story has to do with the parting of your loved ones, whether it’s death or divorce. So human beings are often caught up in 爱恨情仇. It’s like passion, aversion, relationships, and negativity towards someone or an incident. I hope more people will focus less on this attachment, on these four elements that cause us a lot of suffering. I think one day you won’t even need music. If you can get over this, you don’t need anything to heal you anymore. You can self-heal because the root has been plucked away.
[00:27:07] Cheryl:
And when the root is plucked away, the grass won’t grow again.
[00:27:10] Imee:
Yes. Yes. At least we can just keep cleaning it, tone down this kind of attachment, and make life a little bit simpler.
[00:27:18] Cheryl:
And I think that’s why the Buddhist teachings are so beautiful because it’s also helping us to uncover our highest potential, to clean it away, to pluck it away. And hopefully one day we can really uproot it forever.
[00:27:31] Imee:
Definitely.
[00:27:33] Cheryl:
We have a cheeky question from one of the people. They were asking, what will you be doing if you were not doing music?
[00:27:40] Imee:
Sleeping or eating? So you are cheeky? No, Auntie Imee will not let you be cheeky. Okay, let’s be serious about this. Yeah, I always I’m quite proud to say that I live like a monastic, although I’m not ordained. I don’t go out, go to cafes, go for a movie. Besides my concert, I don’t go out at night at all. Anything that I need to go out and socialize, has got to do with my Buddhist work. Either we have a discussion or I need to be there to attend a ceremony or whatever. But talking about ceremonies, I don’t even attend weddings, anniversaries, or happy occasions. I only go to funerals. It’s like my choice. I can enjoy anything. I can enjoy a nice birthday party too. But I feel that in my life, I need to have my selection of what I do since I have too much to do with my Buddhist music and also some other work that is related to it, to build this music monastery that I aspire to have eventually. You don’t have to be physical, that’s a building. But if I have a building, as we call it a “music monastery”, this is where I can maybe share and teach more people. Like-minded people can come together. Maybe the Dhamma work through performing arts, music and dance will flourish even faster.
I feel that now I’m close to 60 next year and I don’t know how much time do I have to achieve this. By trying to do as much as I can, I have to sacrifice a lot of things. So I don’t do anything else, but eat, sleep, and do my music. And of course, concerts. Just the necessary things, but I don’t go out. I don’t have even holiday plans to go visit a country. The only holiday I’ve ever gone on with my family was to Singapore and that is also to visit relatives. I’ve gone to many places but it’s because of my concert or related to my Buddhist work. There was not one that was just a pure holiday until today. Yeah. Wow. It just came naturally. It’s not something that I planned, but I think it’s like the work and the cause of events that just spin off year after year and lead me to where I am today. I’m quite happy with this.
[00:29:56] Cheryl:
Yeah. I wish you all the best with the Buddhist Music Monastery.
[00:30:00] Imee:
Thank you.
[00:30:01] Cheryl:
This is so cool. I’ve never heard of Buddhist Music Monastery before.
[00:30:04] Imee:
Don’t you think it’s so cool, right? All the people there, either you sing or you dance or you’re a composer or you are a lyricist, or you are researching somewhere. It’s so beautiful, this place where we can live together. Because I think with more people living it together every day, I think the whole process and the achievement will be by folds.
[00:30:26] Cheryl:
On a similar note, but also not, not too similar. I think this is a very interesting question on the idea that people pirate Buddhist music and books with the excuse that Dhamma is free of charge. Can you share your opinions or experiences?
[00:30:41] Imee:
I think there are two kinds of them. A lot of people actually don’t know they are copyrighted, but there are also people who know, that they’re copyrighted and they pirate them. But if they pirate for the use of Dhamma, not for monetary benefit, I think it’s okay. But it is also not okay if you come to think of it, eventually, no one wants to become a Buddhist musician or book writer because it doesn’t give them security anymore. It’s always a voluntary work. It doesn’t make sense from the modern world’s point of view. So how are you going to solve it? Because if you can do this professionally, wholeheartedly, and just do this and nothing else, I’m sure the quality of our work can be much better. That’s what the music monastery is all about.
When we have so many people we can put up good quality performances or good quality music. When there’s a market, then there’s a supply. That’s where there will be a balance. Then we can fit these people and they can use this as their livelihood and make it their profession. It’s going to be a very good thing, a very good future if we can build this up. Otherwise, now, the whole mentality is just like, this is only a part-time thing, how do you survive over this yourself? Oh, yeah. Maybe that’s the most challenging part. If you wanna ask me about this. It’s always financial. People think that with my celebrity status, I should be very rich, but it’s just the opposite. I’m not poor, but it’s so difficult for me to be able to handle so many things with just my own effort. I can’t take in sponsorship or offerings like the monastery because I’m not a monastery. So I’m trying to build this whole thing as a profession. But so far so good. I just thought it could be much better so that in the future, many people can choose this.
[00:32:31] Cheryl:
And I think this is also a problem that’s very prevalent in other aspects of the Buddhist scene as well. Even in temples, the running of it, most of it is all 乐捐 (voluntary donation), right? People donate and people who want to help are all on a voluntary basis as well. Then it results in a lot of attrition because the fully talented ones, have to go outside to earn a lot of money.
[00:32:51] Imee:
This is one big issue that I also see. Maybe most of this so-called donation or sponsorship or whatever should focus less on the hardware, like building the tallest Buddha or the building. But if you have so much space, we have to make sure that it’s fully utilized and it can generate self-sustaining work. But looks like it’s not the case now. A lot of the good people will not stay. You just cannot keep these people. I mean, I wonder why. Maybe the new generation. can put this into serious planning. The traditional way of doing things should still be preserved, but maybe we can have another option we can build a Buddhist environment for more people to come. The people who are serious about practicing and they want to learn, but they also want to contribute at the same time. They can also find a place where they can take care of their livelihood.
[00:33:48] Cheryl:
Yeah, because after all, everyone is still lay people. We still have to take care of the four requisites on our own.
[00:33:54] Imee:
You should let them feel comfortable, and take care of their needs first. Give them what they need first, instead of asking them to give you what they can give as a Buddhist. It’s the other way around.
[00:34:07] Cheryl:
Yeah, I’ve never thought of it in that way. It’s the other side.
[00:34:10] Imee:
Because whenever you walk in and say, Oh, what can I offer? You think of that first, right? You never say, what can you offer to me? You have to be brave to say that. If I walk into a Buddhist, I can do this. You have anything to offer to me, but we are always asked to offer the Buddha and the Triple Gem first. Of course, that is something that we obviously need to do, but can that be not to new people who want to embrace the Dhamma? This is quite difficult. We can try to understand it’s nothing wrong. It’s nothing wrong.
[00:34:41] Cheryl:
Yeah, with a Handful of Leaves, I think it’s interesting a lot of our volunteers, become volunteers because they feel that they have benefited a lot. Oh, the content reaches out to me, then I want to help. So it’s like you say the opposite, they receive before they give.
[00:34:57] Imee:
Yeah.
[00:34:58] Cheryl:
And I want to share with you some lovely notes that were given. This is from Gordon and he says that one of the foremost reasons that got me interested in Buddhism back then as a primary school kid, 12 years ago, was due to your melodious voice. So, thank you very much.
[00:35:19] Imee:
I’m happy to share. Yes, this is interesting if you ask me about the very significant impact. In fact, I’m very happy that as I traveled around all these years, I met a lot of monks and nuns who told me the same thing. They became monks and nuns, the first influence was my music. But I feel ashamed. 你们都出嫁了,我还在这混,还是个凡人 (you’ve all ordained but I’m still a layperson). So I always make this joke. Then they started laughing. 那欢迎! 您什么时候要加入我们的一家人?(When will you be ordaining? We welcome you to the family!). Many of them I actually keep in touch.
I also cannot say, all this effort is worth it. No, because I’m not like somebody so great. As a Buddhist musician, you shouldn’t say, oh 我这一生值得了,我做的东西能够渡那么多人. Because you should feel blessed that you should be able to participate in this sense. It humbles you that you are not always looking to see that whatever effort that you put in, whether it is mind or body, is worth your life or not. Your life is worth nothing if you don’t hit the Dhamma. If you don’t hit the Dhamma, you have wasted your whole life. Being born on earth 在人间, we should also bear in mind that this is very important.
[00:36:37] Cheryl:
Yeah, this is such a wonderful reminder because the opportunity to even be born as a human and to listen to the Dhamma is so rare.
[00:36:44] Imee:
Yes, so people always ask 我们在寻求人生的意义, what’s the purpose of life? Why am I here for? What is the truth of life? Who am I? I think all these questions no need to look because once you look means that you want to identify yourself as a person and your worth. But if you don’t go out and do something, you will never know your worth. You can start by sweeping the floor. You will slowly find your worth. The day you breathe your last breath, that’s the only time you know what is your purpose in life. I always think so. Not any moment in your life until your last breath. I think I will discourage people from looking for the purpose of life because I think whatever comes, the first responsibility, go do it first, then it will unfold the next page you will see.
Because a lot of people feel very stressed, like everything they do also, they feel that it’s not them. It’s not worth their life. It’s suffering, it’s torture. So I think you should just accept it as your karma. And then you will be happier that way that you will notice that time will be the medicine to heal you and the same time to open up the next page of your life. If you think that what is the purpose of life in search of the truth, then you probably will never get the answer. I think this is my perspective.
[00:38:05] Cheryl:
And whatever it is that we are doing, we do it with our full heart, whole heart and even it can be as simple as just sweeping the floor. It’s something that we can also do it.
[00:38:15] Imee:
Mindful. I think mindful is a good word. Mindful doesn’t mean you have to be always kind. You have to be always giving. Mindful just means you’re aware of your surroundings, aware of yourself being there, and aware of people around you, things around you, happening around you. It’s like your scanner, you’re always scanning yourself. But I think we should just put our radar open to a wider scope that you can scan through 360 degrees if not 270 degrees, or you open up 45 degrees. We talk about vibration. If we are one in the universe, we always say we are one. What is this oneness all about? We say, Oh, we are oneness. We are happening in one country, harmony. But what is that? What does that mean? How to get it started? So you can start with this, and open up your radar. Then you can scan things around you so that only you can become one, but if you’re not connected, you can’t even scan three feet away. So if you are not opening up your scope, I don’t think you can move on, if you just think, why am I here? You keep searching for happiness and truth, you will never do it.
[00:39:16] Cheryl:
Yeah, and it’s very brilliant. And one last one. They said, Dear Sister Imee Ooi, your chant showed me self-love and unconditional love for all beings. Relaxing in a chair, closing my eyes, and following this chant, sometimes brings tears to my eyes, experiencing the depth and boundlessness of this goodwill. I’ve been transformed from the inside out from the regular practice of metta with your chant. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
[00:39:45] Imee:
Sadhu to you. Thank you very much for sharing. I wish everybody well and safe. Those days I always say wish you well and happy. Recently, I think I should take away the word happy because I think it’s overrated if you keep on having this place to reach or to find this in search of this thing, I notice it doesn’t work on a lot of people. In fact, you get more depressed because everything you look around you is not enough.
[00:40:14] Cheryl:
Because you have to get to somewhere to be happy. Yeah.
[00:40:16] Imee:
It’s like I’m entitled, is my entitlement. So how can I find my entitlement to happiness? You know? So if you are not mindful, or you do have not enough wisdom, or the environment is not conducive, you tend to go the other side. So I think we will say, May you be well and safe. I want to say safe because I think without this body if you’re sick. Death is not so scary. I think to me because I’m prepared for it. But sickness is like going through a period where your body just cannot wake up to your mind. So you still need your body to do a lot of things.
So I think I would rather wish people well and safe. So once you are safe from a lot of bad things around you or pain and sickness or disturbances, probably when you’re in a safe place, safe doesn’t mean that you lock yourself up all the time. Sometimes being safe is like you’ll be able to be in touch with so many out there and still feel secure. You’re in control of your doings.
[00:41:22] Cheryl:
We wish everyone, all our listeners to be well and safe. And I think that brings us to the end of this beautiful sharing from Sister Imee. And thanks so much for spending your time here with us.
[00:41:33] Imee:
You’re most welcome, Cheryl.
[00:41:35] Cheryl:
Thank you. And for everyone who likes our podcast, you can like it, subscribe to it on Spotify and you can check out Sister Imee’s work on YouTube, Spotify, and wherever else you find your music.
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei
Editor and transcriber of this episode: Cheryl Cheah, Susara Ng, Ke Hui Tee
TLDR: Being in love with love is different from being in love with a person. Being in love with another brings sadness, excitement and passion. Being in love with love brings peace, joy and rapture.
This is a reflection piece as contemplated by the author based on the Buddha’s teachings. As such, it may not contain the truths as taught by the Buddha. The author hopes the reader takes away useful bits that may resonate and discard whatever parts (or the whole article) that make no sense without any aversion.
I have not listened to popular music for quite a long time. I wouldn’t know what are the most popular songs of the last decade. I also have not had that intense rush of passion or interest in another person for that same amount of time. Recently I decided to listen to songs of my youth. I don’t know if it is the right choice because these songs brought up particular memories for me.
It is interesting how most of my strongest memories have to do with my youth. I am guessing raging hormones of youth brought about stronger emotions that led to deeper impressions made on the mind. According to Buddhist cosmology, we have been reborn countless times–however, as the music carried my mind to the past, experiences of my youth still seem so fresh in my mind as if I’ve lived them for the first time.
What is love?
Love is too big a word for anyone to express. In Western movies, characters who express love toward one another make it seem like a big deal. But still, that is not love.
The word, “love”, is used too frivolously in our society.
We romanticise feelings for another person just as we romanticise love itself. Love in its true meaning is unconditional. Unconditional love is hard to find on earth.
The closest would be that of a mother’s love towards her child. Therefore love would have the elements of sacrifice, forgiveness, compassion, perseverance and faith.
The mother is also able to let the child go because of love. But she is readily available when the child needs help.
Attachment not love
If you are unable to wish your other half happiness and goodwill if s/he leaves you, what you have is not love but attachment.
Also, if you are unable to accept and forgive your partner’s bad habits with patience and compassion, that is not love. What we have is attachment and a sense of responsibility towards our partners.
I found that in all of my relationships, I have never really loved anyone. I would do things to make myself feel better and make others feel bad in the name of love. There is an egoic possessiveness towards all of them. Looking back now, I can only feel compassion for my own ignorance and for the ones who had to suffer me.
Our obsession with love
The human race is always looking for love. This is evident from the many popular romantic and breakup songs in pop culture.
We seek happy endings in love. Many years ago, a friend’s father passed away. The only wish he had not fulfilled was finding true love. This is even after being married, begetting children and divorcing. That is because I was judging my friend’s father from my perspective. I would not marry unless I love the other. Therefore I was surprised he was still seeking true love on his deathbed.
I have not consciously looked for love with another person for the longest time. Although that thought did pop up every now and then. Listening to songs of my youth reminded me of my first love and despite it being such a long time ago, I still cherished that relationship and have goodwill towards my first love. The relationship brought up bittersweet memories. But the relationship is not something I would like to experience again.
Recently, I witnessed a friend’s misery and happiness from her attachment to her partner and it reminded me of the pitfalls of romance.
Romance brings about happiness only when the other meets our conditions and vice versa.
Being in love with love
There is a way to be in love and be happy without involving another person. That is to be in love with love itself. In all religions, from Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism to Sikhism, there are practices on the contemplation of love. Love is universal as taught by all religions, and we seem to have misunderstood love by trying to find it in another person.
Jesus and the Buddha (two of whom I am most familiar with), both taught and possessed unconditional love. These two great teachers were themselves unconditional love and so they did not need to seek it from elsewhere.
It makes sense why they need not seek love from others. If we feel that we are enough and full of love within, we will have lots of love to share and there will be no need to get it from others.
In Buddhist practice, the Buddha taught us to cultivate love in our hearts and to share it with all beings. I think the difficulty lies in cultivating love in our own hearts because we are so used to romantic love which is dependent on the sight of another. Though love itself and our ‘love’ for another differs in quality. Our “love” for another is narrow because we only can love the object of our affection and depend on this object to further grow this love in our hearts. Love, in reality, is wide and does not depend on others to do certain things or be a certain way for us to have love in our hearts.
How to cultivate love in our hearts?
Buddhist meditation teaches us various ways to develop love in our hearts. One way is to think of a person we love and respect and to pay attention to the love that arises in our hearts.
We then radiate it throughout our bodies and spread it out in all directions.
You can also spread the love by thinking of various people, animals, the earth and the universe. It helps to smile when doing this meditation because smiling relaxes oneself and helps to develop love and kindness.
Similarities between being in love with love and with another
When we are in love with another person, we can’t help but think of that person. We feel drawn to that person, we yearn to understand them and to know their secrets. We want to be united with that person, to be intimate and to relate to him or her. We also hope to be able to please our partner.
When I was doing a home retreat on loving-kindness, that was how I felt. I enjoyed thinking about love. That love in my heart contained elements of joy and lightness. I wanted to draw close to it and was not interested in others. However, I did not go deep enough to become intimate in that love or to know its secrets.
Thinking of the Buddha to cultivate love
For those who need the image of another to bring up love, you can always think of the Buddha or other religious teachers.
I thought of the Buddha’s immense love and compassion for all those around him. This exercise managed to cultivate those qualities in my mind during meditation.
However, I am not spending enough time thinking about the Buddha’s qualities of love and compassion in daily life. I wish it would occupy at least two-thirds of my mind at all times.
Being in love with love is indeed different from being in love with a person. Love that depends on a person includes elements of sadness, longing, discontentment and excitement.
One could even get depressed when ignored or rejected by the object of attraction.
But love itself is different. There is no rejection, no longing, no sadness or excitement. Love includes feelings of joy, peace and rapture.
Since it is virtually impossible to find love from another person, perhaps we can only love another when we ourselves become love by being in love with love.
Wise Steps:
Love begins from the self. To be able to love others, we have to love ourselves. Love is like a fire on a candle that lights up the room. Start to love yourself by first forgiving yourself.
Bring to your mind a living spiritual friend whom you admire and think of his or her qualities of love.
Contemplate the loving kindness, compassion and equanimity of the Buddha. Thinking of these qualities can also help to bring up these feelings within yourself.