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You have placed your best effort. But the problems keep cascading in from all directions. Is this really the dead end? What can you do? Wasn’t this always the problem I have always tried to climb and solve? Giving up is tough, so knowing when to give up is key. Here are two stories to help you decide what’s best for you!
1. When obstacles come into your life, ask this question 2. It can be a great thing to give up.
When obstacles come into your life, ask this question
Cr: Unsplash
What’s going on here & Why we like it
Mingyur Rinpoche, a famous Tibetan Buddhist monk, shares on how we may meet obstacles and dead ends in our lives. By asking the question of whether we have a solution, it shapes our next steps to deal with the challenges that lie ahead of us. Solving the obstacle sometimes requires us to go around, above, or under it. It might even be our teacher.
“Letting go is not giving up. If you are going somewhere and you meet a dead end… what can you do?”
Wise Steps
Letting go is not giving up, if you know whether you have the solutions. What obstacles should you let go of right now?
What past obstacles have you overcome in the past? What have you learnt from them?
Tori Press, an Instagram Artist, shares her experience of giving up through illustrations of climbing a mountain. We love her personal sharing of her dad telling her not to give up and acknowledging how past goals don’t always correlate with our current goals.
Her simple analogy of climbing a mountain that you no longer have joy in climbing hits home hard as young working adults. We may wish for a promotion/ dream job/ dream partner only to realise it is not what we wanted. It is okay to acknowledge that things change and give up.
“This may not be the right path for me after all.”
Wise Steps
Ask yourself, “What mountain are you still climbing that is no longer the right path for you?”
TLDR: The Harry Potter series has demonstrated many different ways for us to cultivate immeasurable love to ourselves and other beings. Apart from learning different spells in Hogwarts, we can also apply our magical abilities to further strengthen our loving-kindness and extend the benefits of metta to the muggles and beyond!Β
“Expecto patronum!” I exclaimed as I garnered all the thoughts of loving-kindness (metta in PΔli) within me to cast my Great Grey owl patronus, wishing all sentient beings around and beyond me well and happy. As I get up from my seat cushion, I visualise my energy and joy restored – just as how the dementors are scattered to the four winds by my patronus charm, bringing back happy thoughts.The joy of peace hugs me.
Dementors are a type of soul-less evil creature and thought to be the foulest beings on Harry Potterβs planet Earth. They have the power to consume the happiness out of you, creating feelings of dejection and despair.
A dementorβs kiss, the kiss of death.
Some of us may forget what our first kiss was like. Youβll never forget being kissed by a dementor, however, in fact youβll forget everything β instead of your saliva, the kiss sucks your soul, trapping its lovers forever, so deadly that it leaves its victim lifeless in a permanent vegetative state – a punishment worse than death.
A patronus charm is one of the most powerful protective spells and itβs also the main spell used to protect against dementors. The charm takes the form of an animal in which the caster shares a great affinity with.
It is an exceptionally complicated and difficult spell to produce, as it channels the casterβs happy emotions into a spirit guardian. A patronus drives away dementors due to its counterforce of immense positive energy.
Patronus equals Metta?
A patronus spell is the only way to protect us against a dementor. Initiating as a pure concentration of happiness, it conjures a spirit guardian that drives away dark creatures.
Likewise, metta is the direct remedy the Buddha recommends to counteract ill will. Metta bhavana, or loving-kindness cultivation, allows us to develop friendliness and spontaneous feelings of positivity, which is extended universally to all beings without discrimination or reservations.
This is one of many examples of how we can find similarities of Buddhist values in the stories of Harry Potter and his friends.
The Harry Potter series of books is one of the most widely read young adult fantasy series in the world; Iβm sure that most of us have come across the story in one way or another. What can we learn and apply from Harry Potter? Quite a lot! The idea of loving-kindness features strongly in Harry Potter. Hereβre some scenes you might have missed!
The magic of Metta
As mentioned at the beginning, the patronus spell is basically a form of loving-kindness meditation. So now the question is, how do you practise loving-kindness meditation? Just like how a great witch (me, haha) would cast her patronus, one must first muster happy sensations!
We first begin with the development of loving-kindness (metta) towards ourselves, wishing ourselves to be well and happy, to be free from physical and mental suffering.
I propose to take oneself as the first object of metta as true loving-kindness for others is only practicable when we are able to feel genuine loving-kindness for ourselves. How do we love others when we cannot even love ourselves, right? We can’t possibly pour from an empty cup! A lot of our anger and aversion directed towards others spring from the negativity we grasp on ourselves.
Hence, to grant access to the flow of friendliness and kindness outwards, we need to melt down the hardened scab embodied by negative attitudes. Once the feeling of metta kindles and fills us up, we can stretch it to others: shifting from our loved ones, to furry animals, and to acquaintances. We wish them to be well, healthy and happy.
As our patronus gradually takes its form and shape, we are ready to broaden it to people whom we are not agreeable with. Bit by bit, aversion and ill will, like dementors, wonβt have room and will soon diminish in Azkaban, the detention facility for convicted criminals in the magical world .
The idea behind dementors
Interestingly, J. K. Rowling, Author of the Potterverse, mentioned that she used depression and self-hatred as a source material for dementors. Dementors are the very personification of our inner demons.
Self-hatred often comes with a heavy price tag.
It makes us perturbed, dissatisfied with life, or even depressed. Just like the dementors, self-hatred sucks the happiness out of us, leaving us feeling nothing but a sense of lack within.
What can we do at times like this? We can confront our self-loathing thoughts in a non-judgemental way by sending metta to ourselves. Metta involves being friendly and benevolent as opposed to being harsh and judgy. Ironically, many of us make incredibly harsh, cruel self-criticism that we would never have uttered to a total stranger, let alone someone we care about.
An opportunity to spend time with ourselves
Metta meditation gives us the opportunity to spend some time with ourselves. As we pay close attention and awareness to each moment, we can open our hearts to genuinely loving ourselves for who we are. We accept our foibles and imperfections.
By developing a calm and open state of mind, we can see ourselves and others more clearly and lovingly. We understand that other sentient beings are not much different from ourselves, each in search of happiness and steers clear of suffering.
We may, perhaps, be more inclined to find the courage to let go of the hurtful past.
Loving ourselves is the gateway to loving others.
Another component unravelled in the Potterverse is mindfulness. Just as Harry taught Dumbleldoreβs Army how to fight off bad guys in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix where the kids had to fend for themselves against Voldermortβs death squad, your patronus can only protect you for as long as you stay focused.
When we aren’t mindfully aware of the suffering we are facing, we canβt give ourselves compassion. We are just repressing the pain or ignoring it, or being involved in the maze of problem solving..
We have to pause for a moment, admit and accept the torment. And we acknowledge that in this moment, we need metta for ourselves. We can’t be kind to ourselves if we refuse to face the distress.
By being mindful, we recognise that we are suffering. Being kind to ourselves in that suffering helps to reduce anxiety and related depression too.
What about the death eaters in our lives? What can we do?
Apart from identifying that cruelty to ourselves stands from distress and suffering from within, we may also discover that many people, whom we deemed as βprofoundly wickedβ or whose mission in life seem out to make us uneasy, are also in pain inside.
The all-time great wizard Albus Dumbledore saw through Voldemort past his icy snake-like skin and understood that Voldemort is in fact lonely and very much dissatisfied with his life. Dumbledore managed to grow his compassion in sight of such an βevil personβ.
Dumbledore strongly believes it is more tragic to be alive and loveless than dead. Apart from pity, we could also turn this compassion into empathy: Voldemort was conditioned into the way he was.
Voldemort was, after all, conceived without love, his father abandoned his mother and him. Both his parents were unhappy and he spent most of his childhood in an orphanage as a loner. Even for someone as powerful and monstrous as he is, we could see that Voldemort was suffering.
In Potterverse, we notice that there are far more creatures other than humans that have magical ability. Likewise, in the muggle world, metta radiates beyond the human realm.
In the Harry Potter prequel, Fantastic Beasts, we saw how Newt Scamander, a magizoologist known for his passion for magical creatures and beasts, was delightfully fascinated by all creatures, even those that seem hideous to the normal eye, stretching as far as to describing them as fantastic. Newt feels extremely connected to all sorts of creatures and always defends them.
Leta Lestrange, one of the closest friends of Newt since their Hogwarts days, affirmed this by saying Newt has never met a monster that he couldn’t love.
We can learn to have a heart just like Newt Scamander in Fantastic Beasts, big enough to room any living creatures, no matter what it is. But how?
The Buddha was a strong proponent of non-discrimination, so shall our practice on metta be thus. Regardless of race, language, religion, gender, sexuality, etc, all beings deserve to be happy, to be free from suffering and to receive metta from us.
The Buddha has used many similes in his teachings to let us better understand and visualise his point. Buddha has shown us how a love similar to that of a motherβs love could be used to cultivate unbounded love for all sentient beings.
A motherβs love has been greatly emphasised in the Harry Potter series where Lily Potter literally embodied herself by using her own body as a shield to block off Voldermortβs Avada Kedavra death curse to protect her child, her only child.
As Dumbledore has repeated time and again, love is one of the most powerful forms of magic. This magic of love is also the main reason why Harry Potter is untouchable by the Dark Lord till the age of 17.
It is also through love, that Snape, a loyal death eater (did I also mention that it was him who was the spy responsible for informing the Dark Lord the prophecy foretelling Voldermortβs downfall and lead to the eventual death of Lily Potter whom he tried so hard to protect?!?!), betrayed the dark side and joined the path of righteousness.
The power of Metta
Learning from Voldermortβs defeat, we shall not look down on the power of metta. The Buddha reminded his disciples to not underestimate metta using the stars and moonβs radiance as an analogy:
Just as the radiance of stars do not match up to sixteenth part of the moonβs radiance, no one worldly merit is worth a sixteenth part of a mind released by loving-kindness. A mind that radiates loving-kindness and full of love glows and dazzles, shining brighter than a diamond.
There are a lot of takeaways from our daily mundane life regarding metta that we can reflect on. Even if religion is not involved, cultivating metta does no harm but let us be kinder and make the environment we live in a more bearable place.
May we continue to practice kind speech and actions to avoid hurting others and ourselves, cultivate right thoughts. With the right means, may we have compassion for ourselves and to those around us.
May we have the right effort and energy to walk the path of peace and pave the way for a happier, harmonious and suffering-free world filled with metta.
May we be a great wizard with a powerful patronus. And may we be well and happy. Because at the end of the day, βYer a wizard Buddha, Harry!β
Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng has over 15 years of experience in practising and teaching Mindfulness and is a certified trainer under the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute, teaching scientific-based mindfulness and emotional intelligence curriculum developed and tested at Google.
Welcome to another episode of Handful Of Leaves. Today we are very privileged to have Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng. Fun fact, this is our third time recording the episode because of so many technical issues. And I think the very fact that Dr. Yeoh you are here with us, again, is testimony that you’re very, very mindful as well as stable and equanimous. I think this is because of your meditation practice, I suppose. Lots of love from you today. And for our guests who do not know you, even though you’re very prominent meditation teacher, could you start by sharing with us? How do you get to where you are today? Why do you stop practising mindfulness?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (00:41)
Thank you, Kai Xin and hello, everyone. So actually let’s bring us back about more than 20 years ago, when I was a university student, at the age of 20 years old, I suffered from mild depression and insomnia. So I was eagerly looking for a way how to cure my monkey mind. I was introduced to Buddha’s mindfulness meditation, you can call it a Satipattana meditation. During university, I know meditation from Brother Lim Bon Cheng – he recently just got elected as member of Parliament in Australia. So, he brought me or introduced me to Buddhism, and Vipassana meditation, and this is how I get started. And then I started to attend many different retreats in Malaysia, in Burma and Thailand, and learn from different Buddhist traditions.
And then, in year 2008, I went to Oxford, to study for my PhD in organic chemistry. And because I’m a scientist, okay, I’m now a university lecturer in Penang. So I study chemistry, and I teach chemistry. And it’s always my intention to introduce mindfulness or meditation in a more approachable way, by using a layman term, and perhaps to connect it with science.
So when I was in UK, in Oxford, at that time, there was a very famous Oxford Mindfulness Centre, so I was able to attend an 8-week mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (MBCT) cause and that was my first encounter with contemporary mindfulness, or sometimes we call it secular mindfulness. And I Β admire the way that they teach mindfulness without using very complicated Buddhism. And also the course is very structured and combined different meditation techniques. You can see the formula from the Mahasi method, from the Goenka method like body scan, and they also have some mindful stretching, and yoga activities in the 8-week course. And they also bring in some modern psychology concepts, the MBCT, cause the main purpose is actually to prevent recurrent depression. There are many books that have been published on this topic. And then when I returned to Malaysia, “I thought, Oh, this is quite good. Especially this is well suitable for the Malaysian context. And I think it’s the same for Singapore as well.” Because we have multi-racial and multi religious, people around. So I thought, oh, in this way, if we can bring mindfulness to the university, to the hospitals, and to the kids, that will be very nice, without, you know, having the Buddhism label.
I started to conduct mindfulness courses in my university, for the university lecturers and staff and some students as well. And this is how I started. And then slowly, eventually, I started to offer a mindfulness course, a secular mindfulness course but I do not call it MBCT because I’m not an MBCT-certified teacher. That time I call it EQ, mindfulness, and how to use mindfulness to develop emotional intelligence. Actually, I got this idea from Meng, a Singaporean, as someone passed me his book Search Inside Yourself. And that is how it’s about how to develop emotional intelligence using mindfulness, I thought that will be fantastic. Because this is emotional intelligence is something that is very much needed by everyone. Almost everyone. So I thought that there will be very, very brilliant ideas to bring this to the public. And of course, there are some requests as well, when people know about them, I’m running my class in the US, and some reporters did some interviews with me. So it gets some attention from the public. Therefore, I started to offer mindfulness courses to the public, in English and also in Mandarin.
Eventually, I also set up a Malaysia Mindfulness Association. I’m the founder, and also the chairman with the intention to bring mindfulness or to create the awareness, you know, of mindfulness to the public. Of course, this is what I mentioned is about secular mindfulness, without using any Buddhist terminologies. So this is how I started and I have been doing this. And also now, one last thing, I eventually received a scholarship from Meng, to be trained as a certified teacher to teach the Search Inside Yourself or SIY programme, so I also have been teaching this for a number of years in Malaysia, and China’s Hong Kong and different countries.
Kai Xin (06:34)
Wow, that’s fantastic. When you say, keep it secular, it reminds me of this particular saying, by I believe, Goenka, “the breath knows no religion.” So regardless of whether you’re Christian, Muslim or Buddhist whatsoever, you have this breath, you can be mindful. And that’s something we’re going to dive deeper into. Because mindfulness as a word has been quite popular these days. I think people use it as a practice for various reasons. I’m particularly curious about your own experience, what got you saying that this is something that you want to dive deeper into? And this is something beneficial to me? Is there a trigger point in your life?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (07:17)
Yeah, definitely. Because the retreat experience that I got, you know, really helped me a lot, as I mentioned earlier, so I got into mindfulness because I suffered from some emotional issues. You know, like, I didn’t know how to work with my emotions, for example, sometimes it’s weariness, sadness, and stress, and so on and I couldn’t sleep. So, mindfulness meditation offered me a way how to work with this emotion. So, from then on, of course, my retreat experience was very long, it was not easy at all at the beginning.
But somehow after my second retreat, I start to get a deeper understanding and have what we call practical experience, on how we can bring our mind back to the present moment, and how to calm the mind. And through understanding the nature of the mind, with no doubt, you know, I am very confident that it can help a lot of people because it has helped me a lot. The mind was very messy, worrying about the future or thinking about the past, you know. After I learned about mindfulness and became more mindful, which means in simple terms, I was able to stay in the present moment, and my mind became quite peaceful. And then when, for example, anger and weariness arise, I was able to notice it, you know, and then just observe it without following the thoughts or emotions. So, this is something that when you have got the experience, it gives you a lot of confidence.
I would say that secular mindfulness is a very good introduction to bring you to the door or maybe to have a taste of mindfulness and then from then on, you know after you have gained the technique, then we will want to go deeper and you are a Buddhist then, of course, we are most welcome to do so. But at the same time, when we are able to offer secular mindfulness, it opened doors for more people. In fact, I read a report, I think a number of years ago, in more than 20% of the population in America, actually practice meditation or mindfulness in some way, but I’m not sure how true this is. In the history of humanity, this is something that never happened before. Because in the old time, of course, we have, we do have a lot of meditators, but I think, at this time that our time is in, more people start to be aware of mindfulness and meditation. And this is something that can help them, you know, in various ways.
Kai Xin (10:58)
Definitely, I also agree, I didn’t know that meditation can be taught. So, when my friend first asked me for my very first retreat, it was a weekend retreat. My first thought is, I thought, is it so difficult to just breathe? Don’t you just close your eyes, right? Then when I started my very first retreat, it was in the Buddhist context. And wow, it was really like my eyes opened, the doors also opened, and then I went closer to the Dhamma. Of course, we are not saying that meditation or getting people to learn mindfulness is a way to convert, because it is, in a very secular sense, a good way to manage our emotions, as you mentioned. However, also, I think, sometimes we run into the danger of saying that Buddhist mindfulness is also like secular mindfulness, because clearly there is a distinction and I believe not a lot of people know about that. So can you shed some light on this? Because you have gone through both, the secular and the Buddhist context. What’s the difference between mindfulness in both?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (11:53)
There are actually similarities and also differences. Okay. So, in so-called Modern mindfulness, the definition I normally use is this: Mindfulness is about how to pay attention to your body, mind and also sometimes including the environment, with an attitude of curiosity and kindness. The attitude is about how you pay attention to your physical and emotional experience.Β Why do we include the environment sometimes, for example, a lot of times I was also not very mindful when I went to the shopping mall and park my car, every time I took pictures so that I can remember where I parked my car.
Kai Xin (12:52)
That’s very smart! Because I always forget.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (12:57)
So you see, mindfulness in a way in the Buddhist terminology is called Sati. Sati actually means not forgetful or remembrance. So for example, after you parked your car, you were so excited to go to the shopping mall, and you totally forgot where you parked your car, that is what we call absent-minded. Again, absent-mindedness, so, your mind is not fully present. Because your mind isn’t fully present, or you are not very mindful, you couldn’t remember where you parked your car.
So, we need this (mindfulness), in this way, when we define mindfulness this way as the ability to remember and sometimes we use the term present moment and mindfulness, these two are not the same, but they are interrelated because your mind is not present.
For example, when you step down from the train and then get up on the train, we say, be mindful of the step, which means you need to be careful. It also has the meanings of carefulness and also mindfulness. So this is how we use the term mindfulness actually. Sometimes we cannot call it Buddhist mindfulness because mindfulness does not belong to Buddhists.
If you read the sutta, you will know that even the Buddha agrees that mindfulness is a very important ability. For example, if you need to become a very successful person, like a businessman or the king, mindfulness is a very important cultivation and you need to have it. I can remember the Buddha mentioned how to become a successful person, and one of the qualities is mindfulness. Because we need mindfulness for almost everything. Now parking the car, if you do not have mindfulness and you become absent-minded again, then you have to spend enough time you know, looking for your car. So, that is the meaning of mindfulness.
Let me remind, and repeat again, it’s not forgetfulness, and then sometimes we call it, or some teachers also say it’s present moment mindfulness, present moment awareness. How these two are connected, let me give you another example, similar to the parking example.
When you get home, you simply just put your handphone or mobile phone somewhere, okay, because at that time you are not fully present. So, you couldn’t remember where you have put your handphone. So if you remember, for example, now I have my mobile with me here, when I put my handphone down, I was fully present. Okay, that is called present moment awareness, I’m clearly aware of where I put my handphone. So, after that, I can easily recall and remember where I put my handphone. So the first thing is present moment awareness, for you to be able to recall where you have put your handphone and that ability to recall is what Sati means. Okay, because in the Buddhist context, Sati actually doesn’t mean present-moment awareness.
One of my teachers defined mindfulness in four ways:
The first is to remember. So for us to be able to remember, we need present-moment mindfulness. If you’re absent-minded, you are not able to remember, so remembering is like happening at the present moment. But when we’re talking about the present moment, the present moment has passed, because time is like this way. So the first R, is to remember.
The second is to remind. In the practice of mindfulness, we always have a meditation object, like the breath, like the whole body awareness. So at first when we started to meditate, okay, we’re bringing our attention to the breath, or to our body, okay, after that our mind starts to wander. So, we have to remind ourselves to come back to the present moment to remember your object, which is your breath or your whole body awareness. And then a lot of time, we become forgetful in daily life. Although we know we want to live a mindful life, we want to be mindful on the possible everything that we do, brushing, drinking tea, or walking or whatever daily activity you do, that needs a lot of reminder, which means we need to keep on reminding ourselves to bring our attention back to our body back to observe the mind. So, the second R of mindfulness is to remind.
The third R is to recollect. Recollection is something that we use to refer or something in the past, which is true when we have mindfulness. We will be able to recollect for example, to recollect “Where did you park your car?” That is a recollection.
And the last R is to retrospect. Retro means to look back,-spect means to inspect. Why do we call it as retrospect? Retrospect as I mentioned, when we observe the thoughts, thoughts have already arisen. Now, we are aware there is something in the past so we actually look back, but this is the immediate past. Of course, this has gone into very technical, but mindfulness does have this four meanings very closely interrelated meaning. I repeat the 4 Rs, remember, remind, recollect and retrospect. These are the four so this gives the meanings of Mindfulness.
These 4Rs have nothing to do with Buddhism. This has nothing to do with any religion because this is the ability that you can say that we need this mindfulness for our daily activities that we do, you know, we need this.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (20:27)
But what makes Buddhist mindfulness different from secular mindfulness is what we call the Right Mindfulness. In Pali term, we call it Samma Sati. Okay, so there is a right in front there. Of course, in the Buddhist texts, there is also Wrong Mindfulness. This is called Miccha Sati. So we may dive more into that, what is the difference between mindfulness and right mindfulness, and what qualifies us to call it Right Mindfulness?
We cannot just talk about Right Mindfulness alone, because Right Mindfulness has to be supported by the other seven Noble Path factors. Note: The noble path consists of eight elements, not eight different paths.
So, we have
Right View,
Right Thought (sometimes we call the Right Intention)
Right Speech,
Right Action,
Right Livelihood,
Right Effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration, okay? These are the eight elements of the Noble Eightfold Path, therefore we call it Eightfold. Eight(fold) path is one path, not eight paths. So the path consists of eightfold. Okay?
So when we’re talking about right mindfulness, right mindfulness is Buddhist mindfulness, okay. So, the Right Mindfulness needs to have the base of Right View. So, what is Right View? Right View is to understand the Four Noble Truths okay. This will become a Buddhist Crash Course *jokes*.
In short,
what is suffering,
what causes suffering,
the end of the suffering, there is a possibility to end the suffering,
and the path that leads to the end of suffering, which is the Noble Eightfold Path.
So, Right View means we see things in a simple way based on these three characteristics.
The first one is Dukkha – suffering or unsatisfactoriness. Dukkha doesn’t deny happiness. It just tells us that even happiness itself is impermanent. Again, we cannot have full control over what is happening because whatever things are happening are all based on causes and conditions. So, that is what we call the Right Understanding. So, for example, if we like to distinguish between so-called Modern mindfulness and Buddhist mindfulness, to enable you to practice Buddhist mindfulness, you need to have very deep or very good knowledge, not only theoretically. The theory is the starting point, but when you have that very deep knowledge or Right Understanding, you truly understand (what the Buddha calls direct understanding).
(The second) is about how you look at things as impermanent: everything has an impermanent nature (Anicca).
(The third): everything has a non-self nature, we call it Anatta. What is not self or non-self? Self or Atta in Buddhism means you have full control, Anatta means you do not have full control. Why do you not have complete control? Because things, the body and mind experience arise due to causes and conditions. I’ll give you a very simple example. We know that we grow older day by day. So, the Buddha said that illness is sickness, old age is sickness, and death is sickness. Even birth is sickness. We can’t help but face impermanence. So, when you get old and when you get sick, you get very frustrated and you cannot accept the so-called reality of getting sick. That is what we call without Right Understanding. When we have Right Understanding, we are already mentally prepared for it, we already know the body will get old, the body will get ill, the body will die.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (25:44)
So, mindfulness means to remember. We define mindfulness as to remember, to remind yourself this is the reality of life. So, when we are faced with this, we recall or remind. So, we need mindfulness to strengthen our right understanding. After we have this Right Understanding, then only possible we have Right Thoughts, which is the second noble path factor or sometimes we call it right intention so that you do not reject, you do not fight with what is happening. Just now I mentioned the four physical aspects of the dukkha and then we have another aspect, which is the mental aspect. Not getting what you want, then facing something that you don’t want.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (26:39)
Departed from your loved one. So, you bet we can remember we learn all this from the Dharma class, but how does this understanding, get rooted in our mind with this learning, we can even recite, we can memorise very well.
Kai Xin (27:02)
But whether we internalise it is a different story.
The first is sutamayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, we’re reading from books or we listen to the teachings of great teachers.
The second, cintΔmayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, by reflection.
The last, bhΔvanΔmayΔ paΓ±Γ±Δ, is by meditation, so we internalise it.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (27:31)
When we practice Buddhist meditation or Buddhist mindfulness meditation, one of the ways is to remind and remember when we are facing pain or thoughts, we are not chasing it away. We develop this understanding that thoughts arise because of cause and condition. So that once we have understood it, we bring in Right Understanding, Right View (Samma Ditthi).Β When we have Right Understanding then Right Thoughts (arise) as a result.
Right Thought means Ahimsa (non-violence), okay, which mean in simple term the thoughts of loving kindness, the thoughts of acceptance, we do not reject, we are not afraid, we do not create enmity with what is happening, which means in simple terms, we do not reject. So, which means we need kindness and curiosity, we need acceptance, and we need non-judgmental awareness.
Although in secular mindfulness, we do not explicitly use the term Right Thoughts, in fact, what we are trying to develop is the quality of Right Thought because, in a secular context, we cannot bring in the Buddhist concept of right mindfulness like Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
So, if you are a Buddhist practitioner and at the same time you are a mindfulness teacher, of course, they are very skilful means, we can introduce this concept in a non-Buddhist way. So, I always tell my students, so, when they observe emotion, they just know that emotions are temporary phenomena, emotions are changing, and they are not permanent. And then you cannot control emotion, because emotion arises due to cause and condition. So, you know, even though they are non-Buddhist, you know, they can understand this basic concept.
Kai Xin (29:38)
Sometimes when we package things in a religious context, people are less receptive, even though it’s beneficial to them, I think, without getting into too many technicalities of the Noble Eightfold Path, because I’m pretty sure that’s another lecture altogether. Please attend Dr. Yeoh Kar Kheng’s, Dhamma talks as well as our lesson if you want a full course, but if I were to understand to simplify, I think the importance of understanding the difference between secular and Buddhist mindfulness is really the motivation and the intention, you brought up Noble Eightfold Path, right, that is the path to enlightenment, which is freedom from suffering. And I suppose not everyone wants to meditate to gain enlightenment, but they want to meditate to be free from some kind of affliction, to be more peaceful, to have less anger, and to be able to concentrate. So I guess that’s where packaging it in a more secular form would make it more palatable.
For listeners who are interested to go beyond that, to say, “Okay, now I’m, I have the right concentration already. I have Right Mindfulness, I can do the four Rs, then what is next?” Of course, we always say what’s next. We want to become – that’s also part of the learning, right? How do we have the Right Intention to renounce, let go of becoming or non-becoming which is a separate lecture altogether.
So am I right to say if we were to put it in brief, Buddhist mindfulness even though we call it as right mindfulness, doesn’t mean that secular mindfulness is wrong, but it’s really because it stems from like you say, the foundation of morality. So can we have our virtue because it will affect our meditation, right? Whether our mind is calm, or we do bad things, then you will, you know, keep repeating in our head. Then also with the right mindfulness, it would help to allow us to see things clearer with wisdom. So it fits, which is a very beautiful cycle. I think Buddha was a genius. And in this context, it’s really about practising Right Mindfulness to be completely free from suffering. Is there a right way to understand?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (31:46)
Yes, yes, it’s true as you say, what is the major difference between Buddhist mindfulness and secular mindfulness? One of these is motivation. Of course, the highest aim for Buddhists is the final liberation or Nibbana, but as you said, the highest aim doesn’t mean that you know, the lower aim, which is like stress reduction to be happier is wrong. Because the Buddhist, the Buddha, in fact, in the Sutta also mentioned one of the fruits or benefits of mindfulness and clear comprehension, Sati and Sampajanna is the present life happiness.
We actually do not need to go beyond the present life if we do not believe in rebirth. For example, you can feel the benefit itself right here and right now, which is the reduction, of suffering, okay? So it may not lead to the end of the suffering, but it’s a temporary end of suffering. So, in this in this way, even in secular mindfulness, we have this motivation and intention, to want to be happier, to want to be calm, and then want to be more peaceful. So there is nothing wrong with the way. As you have pointed out, although we say there is a right mindfulness and Wrong Mindfulness, which is Miccha Sati, it doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong, is just that this is not the right mindfulness, not the right mindfulness that will lead you to the final aim. When we practice secular mindfulness for stress reduction, preventing recurrent depression, or developing emotional intelligence or enable leadership, this is not wrong.
Kai Xin (33:48)
I hear this analogy before it will be wrong if you practice mindfulness and you use it to do something unwholesome because even burglars are very mindful, right? Like, well, they have to walk very slowly, they have to pay attention, remember, okay, which passcode, where to enter the door, etc. But precisely when we say right mindfulness, it stems from ethics and morality. So I suppose it’s okay if it’s wholesome because it’s stress reduction. Pretty wholesome.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (34:15)
Yes, yes, you are, right. Yeah, definitely. If we are doing some unwholesome thing with mindfulness, that is definitely called Wrong Mindfulness. But even when we just do it to become happier, you know, to develop our skill, then that is wholesome mindfulness. It required of course mindfulness to relax because it is related to some wholesome quality of the mind. Okay, so that is the difference to your point.
Kai Xin (34:49)
It’s interesting. So I’m wondering, some people tell me that, hey, you know, cooking is meditation for me, or eating, singing and swimming. So they have all these different activities which they define as meditative. So, can you actually practice mindfulness without formally meditating?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (35:08)
Yes, definitely whether in the Buddhist way or in a secular way, we always encourage people, especially mindfulness practitioners to bring in or to integrate mindfulness into their daily life, as you say, when you are cooking, when you are walking, when you are eating. So, you bring the present moment awareness. Some peace also includes some mental focus, which will become more focused, focus in a way is that one point in this focus, okay, but you are fully aware of what is happening, while we are cooking, you are fully present, you know, you’re aware that your whole body is standing, your whole body is sitting. So there is in the Satipattana Sutta. Yeah, you can say in a flow, is more to Dynamic Meditation or dynamic concentration, which means your mind is fully focused. But that actually doesn’t mean mindfulness. It is a result of mindfulness. There is a difference between mindfulness and mental focus, okay, mental focus is the result of mindfulness.
Kai Xin (36:27)
So there needs to be some form of effort, like I will deliberately be mindful and aware of my cooking, rather than Oh, you know, I’m just so absorbed in the cooking itself.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (36:37)
Right. Deliberate awareness. So for it to be called mindfulness, most of the time, we need this deliberate attention. Okay? So mindfulness needs to be cultivated and developed, it is not something you are born with that. well, we are born not mindful, because we always forget and are distracted.
Kai Xin (36:57)
Yeah, people’s attention span nowadays is very, very short. Also. And I’m wondering, then, if you say, all this can be meditative, right, and we can cultivate, you know, in daily life. Is there a benefit to just sit (in formal meditation, close your eyes) on a cushion?
Yeoh Kar Kheng ( 37:15)
Of course, before you can actually integrate your mindfulness very effectively, in your daily life, I will say the form of practice is the foundation because in formal practice, when we do sitting meditation, or standing meditation, or walking meditation, we are in a protected environment, which is more conducive and you are sitting still, okay? So you will be able to be more mindful, you know, your mindfulness has shorter gaps, okay, so after we have developed this, and then after we open our eyes, and then continue with our daily activities, so that will be easier, rather than you say, Oh, I just do daily mindfulness is enough. But when you see them, you are not able to sit still. Okay, which means your foundation is not strong. So we need actually both, formal practice and informal practice, and the best thing is to combine both, if you can do formal practice, like 10 to 15 minutes or even longer per day, then you can see the differences compared to just doing daily mindfulness. Okay, so both support each other.
Kai Xin (38:38)
I completely agree based on personal experience, as well, when I started going for longer retreats, then I really got the opportunity to get to a point where my mind is still because sometimes, you know when I tried to be mindful in day-to-day life with no foundation, it was very easy to get agitated. But once I get past that stage, I think it’s also faith and confidence, right? Well, it’s possible whatever the Buddha said, is true. And that’s when I experienced it by myself, then, you know, move beyond, go closer and closer to something that is more integrated into day-to-day life. I think that’s a lot more practical, rather than just jumping straight into the battlefield.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (39:17)
Yes, and also one of the qualities of the Dhamma, you know, as we recite Veditabbo, is to experience individually by oneself.
Kai Xin (39:30)
Yeah, people can already tell on your behalf. Yeah.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (39:32)
And then it makes you more confident, it is not only about a book knowledge or about something that we read It is about something that we can truly experience. For example, when we read the Satipatthana sutta, which is the discourse on the establishment of mindfulness, the Buddha give various instruction on how to develop mindfulness. One of these will be being mindful when you are standing, being mindful when you are sitting, being mindful when you’re walking, you know, and being mindful when you’re lying down. It is specifically mentioned in the Sutta itself. And then we have a session on clear awareness or clear comprehension, which is about mindfulness in daily activities. You know, be mindful or be fully aware, when you’re attending to your head, and be fully aware when you’re putting on your robe. For laypeople, when we’re putting on our T-shirts, in everything that we do, even when we speak, when we go to the toilet. So these are actually mentioned in the Sutta. So when you practice it, and you feel that, oh, it’s true. Previously, I always do this activity without mindfulness. Now, I do it with mindfulness – doesn’t mean you have to do it very slowly to get it right. You just have to remind and remember how when you walk, and you can feel that your mind is more stable, okay?
That is the quality of the Samadhi, the quality of composure, your mind becomes more composed and more stable, and you feel it. When you feel it and can explain it, then you want to do it more. Because you in a way like this experience, and that is not wrong to like this experience, because you’ll find that your mind becomes more peaceful, you know, you become more aware, you become less agitated, you know, and then this is what prompted you to practice more. There is what we call to practice the Dharma in daily life. Yeah.
Kai Xin (41:39)
Yeah, definitely. And I think sometimes the litmus test is just when you walk into the kitchen, do you remember why you go into the kitchen? I know sometimes also, when I open a fridge and forget what I want to take out. Why am I here? So then that means no, no mindfulness already.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (41:51)
Yes. So when we are aware we are not mindful, that is mindfulness. So we keep on you know, notice how our mind gets into absent-mindedness, then that is awareness. So do not be afraid to be not mindful. The more that you are aware that you are not mindful, that is mindfulness. That is a way to keep on our practice.
Kai Xin (42:14)
Yeah, wow, that is so powerful, because I know sometimes when like I say I’m absent-minded I keep telling myself, ” Why am I so absent-minded” and it can be quite demoralising. And I would kind of throw in the towel. Right. You reminded me of a saying by Sharon Salzberg. So she’s also a very prominent meditation teacher. She said the moment that you’re aware that your mind has drifted. She called that the magic moment. Because at that moment, you have a choice whether to bring the mind back, or whether to continue wandering and having that choice is so powerful. So I thought I actually wanted to ask you the question, you know, how to sustain a practice, but I thought this is something really interesting to keep reminding ourselves, hey, you know, it’s part of a journey, the fact that I’m aware, I’m progressing, I’m progressing and progressing.
Yeah, I would like to kind of summarise or end this session, or episode with you by asking you if there is any way to know where we are progressing besides what you’ve just mentioned. So that we can feel a little bit more encouraged and find some yardsticks or milestones along the way.
Yeoh Kar Kheng (43:25)
Yeah, this is a very good question. In fact, the yardstick that we should measure our progress on mindfulness meditation is not how long you’re able to sit, or how much fantastic experience you are able to experience okay. It’s not about them. Because these are all temporary, momentary. After you had that experience feels so blissful, and so mindful and then you are looking for more with it and then there is greed in there.
The real yardstick is to see how much our greed, hatred and delusion are getting. If it’s getting less and less and replaced with more wisdom more compassion, more peaceful and calm, then, you are okay. You can ask the people around you or your family member they will tell you usually quite accurately as well. So, this is how we can measure our progress. When we encounter problems, where previously we will get mad, we will get very worried, now, because we are more mindful, we are more mentally ready and we have this Right View and Right Thought. So our defilement getting less and less now which means you become less greedy. Less anxious. And then yeah, and so on. Okay, that is the yardstick that you can measure your progress.
Kai Xin (44:56)
And I suppose that’s also the Buddhist way, right? Because I’ve seen so many secular mindfulness meditation centres or teachers, I’m not going to name names. But sometimes the draw is that oh, you will be able to get these magical experiences or perhaps it will be you can become more successful, etc. It’s not wrong, I think we need all of these to function in our very conventional material life to succeed, etc. But if we can understand that all these are fleeting and transient, then we can move past that. So we still have our corporate success or our worldly success, but we can also sustain the real happiness within which I thought it’s very powerful. So thanks for clarifying that misconception that it’s not just clocking the hours because I used to be that person, like, How long can I sit, then a lot of willpower, but more and more hatred towards myself, like, Hey, how come the mind is not still, etc. So when I also first heard lesser greed, hatred and delusion and wah it was such a big mind-shift moment, because I realised I’d been doing it wrong all this time. So I guess that very, very nicely wraps up.
I hope that’s also a good takeaway for our listeners who are just beginning or even advanced meditators a good reminder. So practice the 4Rs in our day-to-day life. Now it’s my test, Remember, remind, recollect, and retrospect. Yes, I have a little bit of mindfulness through our podcast. Thank you so much, Dr. Kar Kheng, is there any other things you’d like to say to our listeners before we wrap up?
Yeoh Kar Kheng (46:37)
Yeah, I think whether you practice secular mindfulness, or Buddhist mindfulness, please continue. Again, please don’t give it up. Okay. Because I can see mindfulness can really be very helpful and useful in any context. Okay. So when you need to give a public speech, you need to give a corporate presentation, you need to be very calm and mindful as well in everything that you do. So please, continue and I hope to see you again in future.
Kai Xin (47:12)
Yes, definitely. And do search Dr. Kar Kheng if you want to find out more about the Noble Eightfold Path or how to get started with the techniques of meditation. Today is really just a teaser. There’s so much more. So more links in the show notes as well as resources. Thank you for listening. Meanwhile, stay happy and wise. Thank you.
Thank you to our sponsors for this episode:
Alvin Chan, Tan Jia Yee, Siau Yan Chen, Tan Key Seng, Ven You Guang, Soh Hwee hoon, Wilson Tan.
TLDR: Ever had a deep conversation when time flew by and you connected wholeheartedly with your confidante? Oddly, time froze and you were fully present. How can we create conditions for such conversations to occur?
The Challenge:
Alas, why is a heartfelt conversation hard in the first place? These days, our attention span has been altered crazily by social media. Instagram Reels & Tik Tok reward our brains with shots of dopamine whenever we get a comment or like. Groovy music or snappy videos serve us a fresh shot every day.
It is no wonder a deep conversation is hard to come by — a social treasure waiting to be discovered. We can learn to steer conversations deeper rather than staring at our screens.
Here are four subtle ways to create deeper conversations within your social circles or even Dhamma youth groups! These are methods borrowed from people wiser than me!
1. Ask Better Questions
We were taught to avoid the ‘weather talk’, to avoid politics, and religion (sharing Dhamma anyone?). Does this mean we talk about neutral and bland topics?
Tim Ferris, an American entrepreneur who does awesome podcasts about self-growth, begs to differ. He interviews people from all walks of life and asks them deep questions that seem superficial.
Those simple questions lead to deep lessons and conversations with the individual. Questions like βHow has a failure, or apparent failure, set you up for later success? Do you have a favourite failure’ of yours?β or βIn the last five years, what new belief, behaviour, or habit has most improved your life?β or βWhat is the book (or books) youβve given most as a gift, and why?β
Why are these questions βbetterβ?
These questions are not too broad (e.g. βhow are you doing?β), which makes the speaker reach out for an equally broad answer like βBeen busyβ or βBeen fineβ. They are also not too piercingly direct, which erodes the conversationβs psychological safety (e.g. βHow has your marriage failure affected you?β).
Timβs questions give guardrails for the speaker to reply and also the space to steer the question into comfortable grounds.
This process boils down to the quality of empathy β the ability to think from that personβs perspective and find a middle ground question that makes them feel safe and open.
Tying these questions to the personβs most recent happenings can help you add flavour to your soup of questions. Context matters! For example, if it is a festive season such as Vesak Day or Christmas, you might want to phrase the βbookβ question (mentioned above) as βOh Vesak/Christmas is coming up. What books would you recommend giving people in the spirit of this giving season?β
Contextualising our questions nudges us towards having a true interest in the other and avoids the βriskβ of creating a checklist conversation.
2. Make writers, not witnesses
It is never about what happened to anyone we speak to. How they experience their lives is what makes the conversation insightful. Asking better questions is just one part of the puzzle; making your speakers do more than a recitation of their week is another.
Use open-ended questions like βHow was it like to be the firstβ¦’ or ‘How did you manage to cope with…’ to keep the conversation centred on your speaker. Follow up on their stories by asking your friends or family members about their perspective of the event in retrospect.
This conversation technique gives the person an opportunity to add a new layer of emotion and even transform that pain into a lesson of wisdom and love. The conversation then allows them to write and rewrite their experiences.
3. Don’t fear pauses
If we are listening to respond rather than to understand our speakers, we can be afraid of silent pauses. Pauses can be dreadful in a conversation where we talk to impress. When we are unable to elucidate a response at that moment, we fear that we may have just said junk.
If we perceive pauses as mindful breaks to settle back in the present moment, we give ourselves time to internalise what has been discussed.
There is no rush. There is nowhere else to be.
What can help us through pauses, is to dig deeper into what has been discussed. One can use phrases like ‘Oh yes, you mention that xxx means xxx for you. What brings you to that conclusion?’.
These questions help to replace our fear of pauses with curiosity about a personβs stance on different topics. Our focus shifts from βI have to say something smartβ to βOh wow, what led this person to think this wayβ. When we have that level of curiosity, our fear of silence diminishes.Β
4. Smile at disagreements
The opposite of silence, some might argue, is disagreement. People can disagree on topics that are personal to you. The other may say Buddhists are just βidol worshippers‘ or ‘Meditation is useless’. What do you do?
That is where the mindfulness & metta practice gets into play. We acknowledge that there is a disagreement and then find ways to understand how that person arrived at his/her/their evaluation.
Remember, once you see yourself or your identity as under attack, you arrive at suffering-land.
Hence, it is critical to remain calm when your opinions are challenged. It is okay to say ‘I am not comfortable discussing that right nowβ rather than to engage in a battle of shouting views.
Adar Cohen, a renowned mediator, brings the term ‘gem-statements’ into the art of conversation. When both parties have done their best to listen and be empathetic, someone unearths the priceless gem. It is usually one to two short and powerful statements. The statements should be a genuine expression of your feelings and have a strong, positive, and meaningful impact on the other person.
These are some gem-statements that you can bring to your next βdisagreementβ:
βWe kept on fighting because none of us is willing to walk away from this friendship. That’s something.β
βEven when we can’t agree on how to take care (of your) uncle’s health, I’ve never doubted your good intentions. I know you want the best for himβ
This gem-statement lights the way around a compromise or towards a solution.
Deeper Conversations ahead!
There are way more subtle ways to have deeper conversations than the four tips highlighted here. However, grasping these four methods right will help you to get started in becoming a subtly deep conversationalist. May you find that deep moment of clarity and precious insights in your next conversations.
Wise steps:
Better questions are crucial in starting conversations, memorise some of them and try them next time
Remember βWriters & not witnessesβ, get someone to share their emotions and experiences and not the key points of their event
Donβt be afraid of pauses in your conversations. Treat them as a mindful pause to recollect and refill your empathy jar
Find gem-statements, one to two empathetic and impactful lines, in difficult conversations. Be ready to walk away if it is too much!
To compare those who are in the position of a jack of all trades to someone who is specialised, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you fail at climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water.
Kai Xin 00:17
Hey, friends, this is Kai Xin and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddha’s wisdom for a happier life. Do you feel average, average in a sense that you’re good at a bit of this and a bit of that, but not great at anything in particular? And when you look at people who ‘made it in life’, people who have figured it all out, people who are celebrated for their expertise, does that makes you question your life? What do I really want? Am I meant to be doing what I’m doing right now? Should I be doing something else? And the more you ask these existential questions, the more stuck you feel. But what if you’re meant to be good at a little bit of everything? And what if not having a clear plan about the future is completely okay. And that’s what we’ll be exploring in this episode.
Kai Xin 01:26
Cheryl and I chat with Ling Ling, who was an engineer, a trainer who has a Master of Science in Psychology, and now back to being a student. A jack of all trades, some would call her, and she’s perfectly happy being that. It is the combination of courage and curiosity that made her walk the nonlinear path with joy. And this episode, we uncover the balance between having a plan and being spontaneous. Knowing what to do when we’re at a crossroad and the clear steps of how to get unstuck in life, you also get an inside view of how to answer this classic question from a job recruiter. Where do you see yourself in three to five years time? Stick to the end of the episode to hear all of our candid answers to the questions. Now, let’s dive right in.
Kai Xin 02:22
It’s so good to have you Ling Ling join us on this episode. And I believe we can all learn from your very unconventional path and wonderful experience. So today, we have our co-host Cheryl and myself to ask you some tough questions that might get a little personal.
Ling Ling 02:37
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Kai Xin 02:39
Maybe you can share with the listeners. If you were to choose between planning and being spontaneous, which would you choose?
Ling Ling 02:49
Actually, I believe it’s good to be comfortable with both, to be able to plan for things, and to be spontaneous because there are times in life when you need to do the planning, and there are certain times in life when being spontaneous is far better. So to give a personal experience in 2008, which is around the Asian financial or the global financial crisis, it was after some years of working as an engineer and a technical trainer, I decided to switch careers from being an engineer to a psychologist. So in order to become a psychologist, I decided to take my first master’s programme in psychology in the UK. And this particular master’s programme is special because it is designed specifically for people from other careers who want to join psychology field, it’s called a conversion programme.
Ling Ling 03:39
The plan was that at the onset of the financial crisis, after graduation, the financial crisis would be over. And I would then be able to find work in the field of psychology after graduation because in the past, when there was a financial crisis, or there was a recession, it usually takes about a year or two years to turn around. And the programme itself was about two years ago, so I figured, okay, once I graduate, I can surely find something in psychology. But as it turns out, the 2008 financial crisis lasted much, much longer, and it didn’t work out that way. After graduating from my master’s programme, it took me more than a year to find actual work, it was so so difficult to find work in the UK at that time. And not only that, I faced discrimination, I was running out of savings, I worked odd jobs to survive. And at that time, after almost a year of trying to look for work, I really didn’t know what to do. I hit the lowest period of my life. It came to a point where I only had less than 100 pounds in my bank account. And I wasn’t too sure whether I should remain in the UK in order to continue to look for work in psychology or to return back to Malaysia (because I’m from Malaysia.)
Ling Ling 04:56
So at this lowest period of my life I was feeling so stuck. I was feeling really anxious. I didn’t know what to do. But this spontaneous idea that came to mind to go on a meditation retreat. I don’t know why meditation retreat, but I needed to go on one. And I needed to make sure that as much as possible, this could be like a really cheap retreat or a free retreat, if possible because I only had so much money in my account. But thank goodness, we had Google that time. And from Google, it brought me to a website called Goenka Vipassana, and they had like a centre in the UK called Dhammadippa, which is fantastic, because they had a 10 day silent retreat in the countryside of the UK, and it’s entirely donation based. So it’s up to me how much I want to donate at the end of the 10 days retreat, and they provide your own room, as well as food, which is fantastic. Also, with a little bit of searching and a little bit of luck, I found a bus company that was able to provide bus tickets for one pound each way- one pound to get there on one pound to return. So I thought, okay, yes, this is fated for me, I gotta go to this silent meditation retreat. And this retreat introduced me to Vipassana meditation. So Vipassana is a Pali word, meaning insight. So in translation, it’s called Insight meditation. So basically, Insight Meditation is the training of the mind to observe bodily sensations as well as the content of the mind. Because I was introduced to this meditation technique, it really changed my life totally, like, from that moment on.
Ling Ling 06:47
My life gradually became calmer, and more balanced. And even though I’ve met different challenges in life afterward, I had greater confidence to face them and overcome them. So there was that act of spontaneity, allowing the universe or the life to show you paths, so your choices, but also there was that plan of mine, you know, trying to look for work after graduation. So there are times when we need both planning and spontaneity. And you also have to remember that, when you planned plans do not rarely turned out as planned. Because as we grew up, we were taught to plan the days or years of our life. But when we are so focused on our plan, we lose our ability to be spontaneous. And when you’re spontaneous, their incomes, all the other things that are wonderful to like, seeing different connections, being creative, having more fun and having more play in your life. When we’re not spontaneous, we also cut ourselves off from serendipitous moments, all these coincidental connections, meeting random people who could be the best friends or the love of your life, or you could see things in your environment that give you quiet signs that point you down a different direction in life that could probably give you greater happiness, greater love, greater joy.
So to me, you need to be able to plan of course, because that’s how things move forward. You need to complete tasks to meet deadlines, but you also need spontaneity to be able to broaden your mind, bring more fun and creativity, and so on. I hope that answers your question.
Cheryl 08:28
Yeah, I think that definitely answers the question. And I think it’s a very nice balance also because when you’re planning you’re giving yourself direction. And when you’re being spontaneous, you’re not forcing yourself to the stuck kind of outcome that you want. You’re allowing, you know, the world to open up to you meeting new people, like you say, you know, in the beautiful word that you used serendipitously. Serendipity. Yeah. And I was just wondering like so you said after the vipassana retreat, you felt more calm and more balanced? And did you feel like you shifted your personality or worldview in the sense that you became leaning more towards spontaneity? Or are you still you know, kind of very stuck in the middle of like planning and spontaneity?
Ling Ling 09:16
It was a drastic change. It was a gradual change because what the retreat taught me is that it is a daily practice. It’s not something where you know, you take a pill, you change overnight. If you stop practising it, you lose the balance of your mind. I don’t lean towards either planning or spontaneity. I use my own life experiences, as well as gut feeling and wisdom, which is better. For example, right now I’m doing my second master’s programme. I’m studying the psychology of intercultural relations. And of course, I cannot be spontaneous in my data collection, and spontaneous when I feel like writing I actually have to sit down and come up with a plan. And how many articles do I read this week and how many notes do I need to write because otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to meet the deadline. But in between those times, because I’m doing this Master’s course, in Portugal, I would also like to explore and experience what life is like in Portugal, so I need to create or plan spontaneous moments where I can go out and understand the culture, meet different people and just experience what Portuguese life has, you know, presents itself to me. Yeah. So you can plan spontaneity, and you can be spontaneous and your plans too, like me suddenly deciding to come to Portugal to do my second master’s programme. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Kai Xin 10:44
I really liked that. I also have a personal experience, actually, all my life, I realised none of my plans go according to plan. Like, I wanted to go to university. In the end, I started a business and because of starting a business, I have more flexibility in time, then I also went on retreats, and meet really great teachers who have changed my life. And yeah, I think it’s really about keeping an open mind to have an overall sense of direction. But at the same time, don’t be too close-minded such that we lose sight of opportunities that are just right in front of us, and meeting you was serendipitous as well because it was my one and a half months trip to Amaravati, which is in the UK that I met a Thai friend, who then became your friend, and then she connected us. If I’m not spontaneous, and you are not spontaneous, we wouldn’t have this competition. So I really liked that it allow things to unfold by themselves.
Ling Ling 11:37
Precisely that is an excellent example, Kai Xin, seeing the way we both connected.
Kai Xin 11:43
Like Steve Jobs said, you can only connect the dots backward. And I’m also wondering, you know, in today’s society, especially when you go to interviews, people would ask, or interviewers would ask, Cheryl is a recruiter, I’m not so sure whether she asked this question, what would you do in three to five years time? And I suppose that that question has the intention of really understanding whether a person or the potential hire, the candidate has clarity in terms of their career, trajectory, etc. But some people just don’t know. Like, I could tell you five years ago, that I have a particular plan for what I wanted to do five years later, which is now. But has it happened? Not quite yet. So I’m wondering, what is your opinion on this? Did you know what you wanted to do in five to 10 years’ time? And how do you sit with the idea of not knowing?
Ling Ling 12:35
The easy answer is I don’t really know, we cannot predict the future. And I think recruiters deep down, they also know this, but they ask it anyway, just to get a sense of whether this person has their own challenge, has like a career planning and stuff. But I also want to hear from Cheryl.
Cheryl 12:55
No, so the fun thing is, I will usually reject people who give me a perfect answer on what exactly they’re gonna do in five years because that shows that they could be very stuck, and they are not open to adapting to different challenges or different situations. So it’s actually a trick question. You need to have, you know, like, the kind of direction but also you need to have the humility to say that you don’t know and, and you are open to it, but people who are very structured, and this is exactly what I’m gonna do, and I’m like, okay, bye.
Kai Xin 13:22
So I’m quite curious here, like, what would be an acceptable answer? Because if people just say, I don’t know, it can come across as you don’t have your life sorted out.
Cheryl 13:33
I think it’s the way they answer. Sorry, this question is for Ling Ling but just I’m just stealing the spotlight here.
Ling Ling 13:39
I’m curious to find out what the thoughts of a recruiter so if I apply for a job, and I get that, I get that question, and I know how to answer it.
Cheryl 13:49
Yeah, it’s how you answer the I don’t know, right? Because I don’t know could be I don’t know. And I don’t care that that is a huge red flag that this person doesn’t have the kind of zest for learning or self-improvement. But if it’s I don’t know, but I’ve done things, you know, I’ve had the courage to try different things, then that is definitely an acceptable answer, because who gets things right all the time, and companies can’t succeed when they only hire people who have done things the way they have done it before. There will not be innovation and creativity and challenging the industry to be to the next level.
Kai Xin 14:22
I really like what you say about the courage to try new things and Lingling, I know you’ve tried a lot of new things over many years, and your plans keep changing, right? Could you share with us how you have such courage to try new things or when you’re stuck, you don’t know what to do next? What’s your guiding question or philosophy?
Ling Ling 14:41
Actually, every time my career changes, they are done for many different reasons. So sometimes it’s because okay, this particular career path is not working out for me. I don’t feel joy, going to the office feels like a drag and I could feel my sense of emotional and mental well-being, decreasing. So I know I need to do something. So that one was not so much out of courage, it was more out of necessity. For example, just like everyone else, I was told, from a young age you must get a good degree, you get a good job, then you get a big house, you find someone to marry and have kids. Now, I’ve been told this all of us, we’ve been told this, right? So at a young age, of course, I don’t know what to do. And I was persuaded to do electronics engineering as my bachelor’s degree. I did, I chose that degree because I was really good at mathematics and actually enjoyed mathematics. But maths and engineering are different things, as I found out for my degree, so when I did the job, it, it was okay. But it wasn’t something that gave me joy. It wasn’t something that gave me excitement, it became like a daily routine. And I could slowly feel like if I continued on this daily routine of being on this hamster wheel, a part of me slowly like dying. Maybe that’s too much of a word, but it just feels like I couldn’t be myself anymore.
And then, fortunately, within the department, I was working in engineering, they had after a year as an engineer, they opened three different vacancies. So two of them were manager positions, and one was a training position, an engineering trainer position. At that time, I was still young in my career, I wasn’t so interested in becoming a manager. And I know based on what was being told, I should be a manager, because that should give me more money. But I wasn’t interested, My heart told me yes, training seemed a lot more interesting, I’ll be more excited to do that, compared to being a manager and I followed my gut, I followed my heart I followed where I believe, can give me greater joy. I applied for it, I got it.
It changed my career from being an engineer to one step closer to being a training and development professional. At that time, it was called training and development, it wasn’t yet called learning and development. So through that work, I met so many different people, I had the opportunity to travel internationally to learn from different experts and bring that knowledge back to Malaysia, (I was based in Malaysia at that time,) and train other engineers on all these wonderful things that I’ve learned, all the programmes that I’ve created for them and such. So as I was in that particular role, I did, of course, self-examination and self-reflecting, on why is it this particular job, give me so much joy and excitement as compared to an engineering job, right.
After some reflection, I realised like, I find a lot of excitement and joy, and creativity, when I get to meet people, I get to understand their perspectives, and I get to learn from them. And also to see how their mind works, to see how they behave. So all of that pointed toward psychology. After three years plus of working in this particular role as an engineering trainer, then the financial crisis hit and I thought, “Okay, this will be a fantastic time to switch careers.” It was courage, but it was also out of necessity. And it also felt, right.
Kai Xin 18:19
Yeah. And you turn inwards in order to find what exactly is their motivation. Or it’s not just joy and excitement, but it’s really about connection. It’s about meeting people and learning things. And that is something that you can find anywhere, which I believe is not just our training and development, right? You travel a lot. I believe that’s what makes you travel because you can meet people, also, am I right to assume then?
Ling Ling 18:44
Yeah, so I travel a lot in my life. In my entire life. I lived in eight different countries, Portugal is my country number seven. The other country I lived in was Serbia for a few months last year. And because of this opportunity to live in different cultures, I enjoy learning about different cultures and how people can live very differently, still survive, still find love and happiness, and joy.
Kai Xin 19:11
And now you’re pivoted into cultural intelligence as your study.
Ling Ling 19:17
That’s one of the things that I’m studying. That’s one of the things I’m also training. I’m a cultural intelligence facilitator with the Cultural Intelligence Centre in the US. What I’m studying is called the psychology of intercultural relations. So I study the cultural values and cultures of different groups of people. But what I also study is how different groups of people interact with each other, different ethnicities, different generations different, just different social groups. And when they interact with each other, what comes out of it. So, it points toward issues that we face now, and that we see in the world in terms of racism, sexism, and all forms of discrimination, and prejudice, as a going-to-be psychologist. What is it that I can learn from these experiences? And what is it that I can do to help create a more equitable and inclusive world in our society?
Cheryl 20:14
I really love how you use your experiences and all this knowledge, sort of like you absorb all this and it informs your worldview, and you’re just so curious to learn a little bit more and more. And although I think you’re a little bit hesitant to use the word courage, I feel that courage is an underlying theme that is really driving the way you move. Because speaking from experience, I also understand the complete narrative, right, you know, get the right like finance lawyer doctor kind of degree, and these are the only right degrees you could do. So I was pressured to take accounting as my degree. And all my friends who knew me, like knew my personality, they’re like, Cheryl, you’re going down the wrong path! What are you doing? And at that time, I was very stubborn. I was like, No, I love accounting. It was the only course in my life that made me cry every single day.
I couldn’t get it and I hated it and was just like, What am I doing here? Yeah, so then I switch out also, after that, to psychology as well. And I think from experiences, really courage, because it’s something where everyone around you is not doing, it seems like you’re almost like a failure, right? You know, everyone’s continuing with whatever degree chasing whatever managerial role they’re doing. Whereas you’re kind of like taking a step back and starting from scratch and doing something else. So, you know, in these kinds of situations seems like almost everyone is against you, right? How do you still like, or what do you use to help you make decisions going forward? And how do you still like, convince yourself that, okay, this is the right way to, you know, you turn and go with something else?
Ling Ling 21:49
It can be really hard when your, especially your loved ones don’t support your work. But the thought process that I go through and make this decision is asking myself this question, what is the alternative? And is the alternative better than the possibility of the option that’s presented in front of me or not? So the alternative would be always likely staying on the same path, which I’ve already tried, and I already know that no matter what I do, in my control, maybe it couldn’t be any better because I’ve tried everything that I could, right? And then there there are these other options that are presented in front of me? And then I think to myself, will these options be worse or better than where I am now?
Cheryl 21:49
But you can never know for sure.
Ling Ling 21:52
No, you never know for sure. So you can come up with different pros and cons lists, you could talk to a whole bunch of people, you can talk to those who have been in their careers and such. But the truth is, we’re all emotional beings. We make decisions based on our emotions, no matter how much we try to patch it up or cushion it with facts and pros and cons list and whatever not. So I remember watching this movie, I think it’s called the Second Best Marigold Exotic Hotel or something like that. And there’s a particular scene in the movie, Maggie Smith, a British actress was in a taxi and was complaining to the taxi driver, right. And she was in a conundrum, she couldn’t figure out what to decide. So the taxi driver says, flip a coin, have the coin decide for you? And then she was like, why flip a coin? And he says, Well, you will already know the answer before the coin lands. So if you’re really truly honest with yourself, you actually know the answer already. And you know, if you go against your true answer within yourself, you’re not giving yourself the opportunity to live your life to self actualise. And if you do not know the answer and if you’re not very sure whether to trust your inner answer, it’s also okay. It’s fine. Just stay where you are. You don’t have to make a decision. And when the right pieces or the right information or the right time falls into place, you will know with great certainty Yes, this I need to go. I need to do this. Otherwise, the alternative will be I’m going to spend 20-30 years thinking what if what if, what if, what if what if, and that is just as painful as trying and failing. Or even more.
Kai Xin 24:21
Personally, I find it helpful to then balance the spontaneous as well as the certainty part here because sometimes when everyone around you are trying to dissuade you from following your heart, if you don’t have a very convincing reason, you wouldn’t be able to deny the adults with much conviction and it wouldn’t be very persuasive. Right? So then we waver. So I guess that’s where planning becomes important because it’s not just all about following our heart and you know, living a carefree life, we want to care we want to plan and it has to be practical. So you know we have to feed ourselves financially, be stable, etc. Not just quit my job because I don’t like et cetera, and live in this very distorted worldview, and I know perhaps a lot of times people are doubtful about our decision to switch path, especially in the Asian context, once you enter maybe secondary school and you choose your specialisation, pretty much your path is set. And it seems like you know, a little bit of everything, but you’re not good at one thing. And when people ask me, “So what do you specialise in? Or what’s your trade? Oh, I’m not sure I’m kind of a little bit good at everything. And I think that’s where it can impair our confidence as well. So I’m going to move into the next theme. And both of you can chime in on what your thoughts are. Do you feel that it is actually okay to be a Jack of all trades? Or do you feel that it’s better to master one domain and be the subject matter expert?
Ling Ling 25:53
Actually, I think it’s really unfair to pit jack of all trades with specialisation to make such comparison because I think you’re really comparing a Durian to a rambutan. I mean, some people like rambutan, some people like durian, right? Because a specialisation requires a specific set of skills, a specific set of knowledge, it’s the same with Jack of all trades, because they have the ability to see connections in different areas. And those connections, bring out creativity bring out innovation, and they require the ability to be flexible and adaptable in different situations. So I think to compare them both is really unfair, and those who are in the position of a jack of all trades, and being compared to a specialisation, I feel really sorry for them. Because it’s basically saying to a fish, you know, you fail, at like climbing a tree, when actually you’re built for swimming in the water. So if you’re a jack of all trades, and you’re being told, okay, you’re not so good enough in this, be confident in your own skills and your own experience to say yes, I’m not good enough in this one specific area.
But I’m good enough to know, that this specific area can connect to other areas, which can bring out something a lot more beautiful, or something more creative, or something more innovative, whatever that is. So an example could be let me think, okay, currently, I’m in academia. And I’m surrounded by people who are really, really fantastic in their research, they’re very detailed in the way that they review journals. And they look at that data and analysis and come up with wonderful findings. But they don’t have the skills, or they don’t have the experiences to share this knowledge in public. So public speaking is something that they’re not particularly experienced in. Whereas like, I’ve also been connected with public speakers, and they’re really great and telling stories and sharing inspiration. But behind those stories, there’s like, where’s the data? Where’s the science? So you can like, I have a little bit of both, I do public speaking, because I’ve been a trainer and a facilitator all this life, but now my interest is moving towards research because I wanted to make sure whatever I share with the world has a scientific basis behind it. So, you can tell me, yes, I’m not the best public speaker, I’m not the best researcher. But with these two skills, I can do something that a pure researcher cannot do, or a pure public speaker cannot do. So it’s not fair, I think to make that comparison.
Cheryl 28:25
Yeah. And I think it’s also really about the self-awareness of knowing what you can bring to the table, what strengths you have, or what weaknesses you have, and really owning that in a sense of, okay, I know I’m really good in my data analytics, and you know, wherever you go, or whatever space you go into, really add value in there, instead of trying to constantly like, look out, oh, I suck at like, public speaking, I shouldn’t be here and like, stuff like that. And I think my perspective comes from in school, I was really into sports, and I was very curious about all sorts of sports, I would play badminton then and after that switch, and then pick up squash, and now there’s, like, volleyball, and then I’ll kind of be just like meh in everything. I was like, I want to try the next new sport out there. And I always compare like, wow they’re so good at basketball! How do they do it? So it always came from a place of inferiority and competition, like within myself, but then I think as time evolved, and as I grew, I realised, it is really about valuing the curiosity that I have for learning new things and going through the rigour of picking up things from scratch, instead of just deepening myself in just one area. So yeah, I think this question can be looked at from different perspectives also, in terms of valuing what you have.
Kai Xin 29:34
Yeah, and I know sometimes it can seem that we are fickle-minded. If we keep trying out new things people wouldn’t see us as curious people would just like make up your mind, what do you want to do? And Jack of all trades has a very bad reputation. But there are more research studies that show actually having general knowledge can give you an added advantage because I mean, especially in the career space As right things are moving so quickly. In the past, let’s say if both of you were stuck in engineering and accounting, it might be completely obsolete in the next 20 years. So if you don’t have the soft skills, you don’t have skills like psychology, asking the questions for the facilitation, probably connecting the dots will be a little bit challenging. Cheryl I know, as a recruiter, probably you’ve also seen trends, right, that technical role now also has to understand some non-tech stuff and possess some of these skill sets. So I really like how both of you brought in the point that it’s not really about either, or, it’s really, what can you offer and constantly evolve, that’s, again, where the spontaneity comes into the picture rather than being so stuck in our old ways. And I’m also thinking from this aspect, there must be a skill that is timeless or that can kind of allow us to evolve. What do you think that skill is that everyone should possess, regardless of profession?
Ling Ling 31:01
Cheryl, would you like to go first?
Cheryl 31:05
Sure, I would also love to hear Kai Xin’s thoughts on this as well. I think this is, yeah, this is a very interesting question, right? Because I think when you ask this question about the one skill that can help us evolve- It’s a very tricky question because the way humans have evolved has helped us to optimise for survival, but not for happiness. So if we are talking about the one skill that everyone should learn, for evolution, would be for survival, then I think we are social creatures, creatures that need emotional connection, learning to get to know people learning to be resourceful. And connecting with as many people as possible, I think, is very important, because there’s no person who could go into the world alone and survive it, I think. But if I’m thinking about the skill that one shouldn’t have to optimise for happiness, it should be learning to be compassionate and like be skillful and emotionally self-regulating, think that’s the one skill that can help people to go through the ups and downs and uncertainties that life can bring to us. Curious to hear your thoughts.
Ling Ling 32:08
Actually, it’s really, really hard to pick that one skill. The one thing that came really strongly into my mind is mindfulness. And I know this comes from my own meditation practice. But I see how mindfulness has changed my life in many ways. And it can also help in whatever profession you’re in, not just in your life in your profession. Because there are so many benefits. And there are a lot of studies about mindfulness. It can help you reduce stress, bring clarity to your mind, it could help balance your emotions. And we need all of this in the workplace. So when you practice mindfulness, you have clarity of mind. So when you make decisions, you know that the decision you make is not clouded by your own emotions, of fear of anger, of jealousy, or envy, you know, you’re doing it out of clarity of your mind, and in consideration of what’s going on in the environment, what’s going on with other people, and so on. If you practice mindfulness, and you’re working on a task, be it a work task or a daily task. With that clarity of mind and clarity of motion, you can put your focus on the task, to make sure that there are fewer errors and that every action you take is more intentional. And you know, those intentions come from either a place of goodness, sincerity, of compassion or out of ignorance. When you’re mindful, you are very, very clear on why you do what you do. That’s one.
Also, with mindfulness, when it comes to social connections, you become a lot more present with the other person, you acknowledge them, and you’re more open to their perspective to understand what their thoughts are, what their feelings are, in doing so you build a greater connection with the other person, build a better relationship, and encourage, you know, greater compassion for each other. So I think the overall skill, one must have is mindfulness.
Kai Xin 34:47
I really like both perspectives, because you can have one without the other, you can be really resourceful and survive on the planet. But if it is, without compassion is without mindfulness, then what for it will just be such a tough and chaotic life. For me, what came to mind was reflection and critical thinking, I can make up my mind which one is more, but it’s worth the, with the concept of constantly looking beyond the surface and to also taking on the thought that our life is filled with hypotheses. It’s like doing research, right? We shouldn’t go out there just to prove ourselves right. But we should prove ourselves wrong, and take on healthy challenges so that we can constantly improve and evolve. And that’s where, again, the theme of this episode. I think it’s daring to be spontaneous. to go a different path, I think that’s where we see new possibilities, we find new solutions, rather than what is presented in front of us or to us. Yeah, so I think it requires a lot of contemplation and critical thinking, to see what’s beyond.
Cheryl 35:16
I do see a connection between what everyone says, I think it’s packaged in different words, and different probably techniques as well. But I think it all leads to one thing, which is basically increasing the connection to oneself. Right?
Ling Ling 35:28
I think it all boils back to ourselves, right? We must be aware of who we are, what we are and how we operate in the world. And who we are also impacts the people around us and the environment, too. So it’s the interaction between the environment and the self, we can see what’s outside in the world, but if we don’t know what’s happening on the inside, how do you know whether what you do has an impact or not? Or whether it impacts people in ways that are not so great. So it’s that interaction of the inner and outer.
Kai Xin 35:57
Like a feedback loop? Yeah, I know, some philosophers would say our worldview is shaped because of our social interaction. So yeah, that’s beautiful. So to wrap up the episode, as we’re coming to the end, for listeners who maybe are at a crossroads, and if they feel stuck, they’re not so sure whether they should move forward with an unconventional path, or what to do if they don’t know want to do, do you have some advice in how they can get unstuck and lean into curiosity?
Ling Ling 36:29
So if you’re stuck, it’s okay to be stuck. Because it’s a normal experience. Everyone goes through it. In some time of their life, we make decisions all the time. And the level of stuckness can be different, different times if I could use that word stuck in this. So you do what you can do, like based on Kai Xin’s question much earlier about what if everyone’s persuading you to do something else, and but your heart says, oh, I need to do this, there are some practical things you can do. So some of the practical things you can do is come up with a contingency plan. If what you decided doesn’t work, what is the alternative, you can also come up with an exit plan? If you face something that’s really entirely unexpected, how you’re going to exit it with minimal damage? That’s another thing you can do.
You can also think of listing out why is this path really important to you, and share it with your loved ones, because they come from a place of fear. And they worry that if you take a path that is unknown, that is untested, that you will face challenges or difficulties, and they will have to be involved too. So if you show why this is really, really important to you, then perhaps you can persuade them to support you. So that’s another way of of doing this. But if you’ve not reached that level of persuading your loved one, for me, it’s like it’s okay to be stuck. That’s fine. When the time is right, the answer will appear.
Cheryl 38:05
I mean, there’s a perfect answer already. I just wanted to maybe just add on a little bit, not a completely new point here. But I think really leaning on the theme of not sure, or like uncertainty where you know, you think that you’re feeling like this is the worst job in its worst situation. But you never know what happens, right? Moving could be better, not moving could also be better. So really just allowing that gap and space of uncertainty because life is very gray. And I think our world view for good or for worse is always very black and white. But if we are able to start, you know, leaning into the grayness of it and finding the beauty there just allowing it to unfold, and evolve.
Kai Xin 38:47
Well. I do agree, quite similar sentiments. I think it’s the perception around uncertainty and not sure- it comes with fear most times, and I find it personally helpful to get out of my head. Because a lot of times when I feel stuck I’m using not sure in a negative way. What if I do this? Or what if I didn’t do that? And then I’ll come up with 10,000 different reasons why I should and shouldn’t do and I’m like, Oh no, I’m stuck. So which one! Then weighing the pros and cons just makes it worse. So I find getting out of my head to just do one thing can help me feel like I’m progressing, and that in itself makes me feel I’m less stuck. And then slowly I pick up momentum, I get more clarity speaking with people who can be a sounding board, offering different perspectives. And once I consolidate all my data, I feel like okay, I have a contingency plan. I have this set-out, I have both certainty and uncertainty then I would take that bold step. And then whatever comes along the way I’ll just take it with grace.
Ling Ling 39:47
Sorry. I wanted to add something based on what you shared because it reminded me of a Buddhist philosophy that’s been drilled into me over and over again, which is that everything is impermanent. So even though you have this emotional sense of certainty, yes, this is the path I’m on, or yes, this is the path that I don’t want to take, or whatever. It’s based on the information and data that we have at this point in time. We cannot predict the future we didn’t. Two years ago, we didn’t know COVID will happen and all of our plans changed. There are things in the environment and things in the universe that will happen beyond your control, and it will make you consider other things. So everything is not permanent. And your need for certainty and security comes from our deep-seated emotions for survival, for being secure, for being safe. So it taps onto what Cheryl shared earlier that it’s okay to be uncertain. It’s just part of how we are built as human beings. But also know that life is uncertain anyway, it’s great anyway, we cannot predict anything. So it’s also okay. Do what you need to do. Talk to people, and make plans.
Cheryl 41:02
Yeah, I really, I really love your sharing today Ling Ling because I feel that you have a very balanced worldview that is both very harmonious with, you know, just the openness to the outcomes that come to you, but also not leaning to the extreme of like, you know, just letting go of everything, and just let’s see, whatever happened. You still have that pragmatism, and, the practicality of planning, you know, being very rational about things, which I feel is a very beautiful and harmonious way to view the world and its uncertainty. So I really enjoy this episode. And I hope like, by the end of our podcasts, our listeners, also, you know, along with us in this conversation, feel at least comfortable that they don’t have to know 100% of what they do in life, and have a little bit of the clear steps from the insights that you share on how to feel less unstuck or the stuckedness as you used, and to be able to find that balance in certainty and uncertainty as well. So yeah, thank you very much for joining us in this episode.
Ling Ling 42:02
Thank you so much, both of you for inviting me onto your show. It’s been so much fun speaking to both of you.
Kai Xin 42:08
Thank you once again for tuning in. If you know of someone who could benefit from the perspective shot in this episode, do hit the share button. Let them know that it’s okay to not have everything figured out in life. Have a general plan, but also allow space to let the unexpected unfold. You can also join our telegram channel and share your perspectives about this topic. In the next episode, we will be learning about how to cultivate a mindset of abundance to get what we want in life. Till then, may you meet with the causes and conditions to fulfill all your meaningful aspirations. And may you stay happy and wise.
About Ling Ling
Ling is a seasoned learning and development professional, a former electronics engineer, and is transitioning into cultural psychology. Ling’s career spans a variety of areas including manufacturing, travel, humanitarianism, and education. Since 2005, she has facilitated and delivered programs in 21 countries across four continents. Eventually, she founded Culture Spark Global, a learning and development company focused on developing intercultural skills for an inclusive and equitable world.
Originally from Malaysia, Ling lived in Australia, Canada, the USA, Singapore, the UK, and Serbia and currently resides in Portugal.
Ling has an MSc in Psychology from the University of Hertfordshire, UK, and currently pursuing an MPsy in Intercultural Relations in Portugal. She is a member of the British Psychology Society, International Association of Cross-Cultural Psychology, and International Council of Psychologists.
Previously, she hosted a popular podcast called Leaders of Learning. Currently, she writes on her personal blog Miss Elle Tea about anything and everything that tickles her curiosity.
Daily, she learns Ashtanga yoga and practices Vipassana.
