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About Our Guest
Yong Hong is an ordinary young entrepreneur, he started Greendot at the age of 22 with his good friend Justin. Green Dot was started with the thought to help professional women to stay healthy and love themselves. With this as motivation, it has grown from a small vegetarian stall to a vegan food restaurant chain in Singapore.
As a young CEO at age 33, Yong Hong currently manages a team of 200 staff. He is responsible for Green Dot 15 stores, including 12 Green Dot outlets Lotus Heart Vegetarian Chinese Restaurant, Greendot Patisserie, and a central kitchen. To him, work is a journey to cultivate himself and an opportunity to find insights within. Yong Hong has a great passion for yoga and music. He hopes to learn n grow with the people he meets.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Cheryl:
Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcasts. Hi, Yong Hong.
[00:00:03] Yong Hong:
Hello!
[00:00:03] Cheryl:
Welcome. So today we have an interview with the CEO of Singapore’s largest meat-free chain, Green Dot, and I’m very happy to speak to him today because I would love to know about his reflections on his entrepreneurship journey, his reflections on his growth in Buddhism. And recently Yong Hong became a father of a beautiful four-month-old baby girl. So we will also be speaking to learn about his insights and what parenthood has taught him. So, Yong Hong, to get things started, for those who do not know you or who have not heard of Green Dot before, can you share more about your entrepreneurial journey with Green Dot?
[00:00:45] Yong Hong:
Sure. Thank you so much, Cheryl, for this opportunity to be here and to share my experiences with the audience. So I started Green Dot about 12 years ago when I was at NUS, National University of Singapore, during Year Two of my studies. I was studying Business back then. It was one of the toughest periods of my life. I remember I have to pack my modules into two days and for the rest of the days, I have to work at the outlet.
So, how Green Dot started was because I didn’t think so much. If I think so much about how tough entrepreneurship is, then probably I wouldn’t have started Green Dot, especially in food and beverage. So, I started Green Dot because my business partner Justin, he’s a vegetarian since he was a baby. Back then I was in Chung Cheng High School. I knew him since Secondary One. And back then it was not easy being a vegetarian in school because you have no vegetarian store.
So he has to bring his own food, or he has to ask the aunties, and uncles in the canteen store to cook special meals for him. He felt that being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice or a personal choice. Why do we have to have so much inconvenience? He thought that having a vegetarian store and having quality food in school maybe will help to make the younger generations who are vegetarians like us feel proud of being a vegetarian because there’s an option. So that was how it started. We didn’t think so much and then we started our first store at Temasek Poly.
[00:02:20] Cheryl:
What about Justin that makes you want to go into a partnership with him?
[00:02:24] Yong Hong:
They call it fate. We got along well. I think it’s a very interesting thing. I’m the CEO of Green Dot, one of the largest chains of vegetarian restaurants in Singapore, but I wasn’t born a vegetarian. So when I was younger, I’m a meat lover. No meat, no happiness. When I eat a McDonald’s burger, I must remove the…
[00:02:43] Cheryl:
Take away the vegetables.
[00:02:46] Yong Hong:
So I don’t like vegetables at all. Even till I founded Green Dot.
[00:02:50] Cheryl:
Yeah. It’s like me. I hate vegetables last time and I’m actually a vegetarian now.
[00:02:54] Yong Hong:
That’s why I think sometimes it’s just fate that you walk this path. Like Steve Jobs always say, you only can connect the dots when you look back. I just have a voice within asking me to try.
[00:03:06] Cheryl:
That’s very courageous, and also I would say a bit impulsive, not thinking too much, and just jumping into trying this thing out, which then eventually turned into something bigger than you ever imagined 12 years later.
[00:03:19] Yong Hong:
Of course, I always wanted Green Dot to do well. Because to me, Green Dot is not just a vegetarian chain because you look at your grandparents, your uncle, and your aunties around you, and as they age you’ll see that the diet actually changes. Less meat and more balanced meals, more vegetables. So I feel that this change of diet will come but you want it to come later in your life or earlier in your life. I have friends around me who are in their late thirties but they have gout because of seafood, beer, and alcohol. Their diet is impacting their lives.
Because of Green Dot, I was exposed to a plant-based diet. I realized that, hey, actually, brown rice can be very nice, vege can be very nice. This journey of Green Dot also changed my diet and impacted me to change earlier in my life. I hope that Green Dot can not only be a place where we serve quality plant-based meals but also be a channel where we can help more people start their more balanced meal diet earlier in their life. It’s not to fully convert you first, but at least 21 meals a week. Maybe you can try 3 meals a week. Change can start earlier.
[00:04:29] Cheryl:
It’s so beautiful how an entrepreneurship that was just part of your hustle became something that actually changed your perception about diet, lifestyle, about keeping healthy. I’m curious if there were any other changes that you experienced when working and growing with Green Dot, for example, in spirituality.
[00:04:51] Yong Hong:
Yeah. Actually, it’s been 12 years. There are a lot of things that I’ve been through, all the highs and lows. Looking back, I feel that this journey has really changed me. I’ve been through three stages of Green Dot. It wasn’t all happy and smooth sailing. It was really very tough. During my first few years of Green Dot, every day I wake up, I go and cook at the store, I feel like giving up. Every night I tell myself, I think this is the last day. I tell Justin, I think you’ll continue. So the first three to four years of my initial startup phase, I treated Green Dot as work. I find no meaning in it because I have no F&B experience before this. I don’t like F&B. I never stepped in the kitchen before. So even before I start going, I don’t know how to cut broccoli or cook rice. I remember on the first day the uncle say, Yong Hong, go and cook some rice. I said, how to cook the rice, how to measure the water, put in the water? So overall, the first three to four years, it was work for me.
[00:05:49] Cheryl:
Even the way you describe it sounds like a chore already.
[00:05:52] Yong Hong:
I hated to go, but because I chose this path, so ego kept me going. But for the second phase, after I started Green, it grew to a few outlets. Then NUS also gave me a fund because they also acknowledged me as a young entrepreneur. Finally, some acknowledgement. From then on, it became a career for me because I was being packaged as a young entrepreneur from NUS. I was driven by results. I wanted to grow Green Dot and do well, and to show that I’m a successful young entrepreneur.
So I was driven by that. That’s where I also faced a lot of problems. Although my business grew to many outlets, but it wasn’t making money. There were a lot of people problems because I’m raw in management. Then I wasn’t happy. I broke up with my other half. My health was in bad shape because I was working every day. I wasn’t happy. My life’s all about work and I wasn’t earning a lot of money because it’s in a growth period. So the only thing driving me is because I’m a young entrepreneur. I was in my career stage where I just work every day. So I achieved some success on the surface, but I wasn’t happy.
People say there’s an aha moment, but sometimes it’s an accumulation of a few things. Change isn’t one moment. People sometimes oversimplify change. Change is like 1%, 1% every day. Not everybody can, *snap* then this moment. So I think it’s being oversimplified. I always tell people learning is not always about learning new things. Actually, the biggest and most important learning is learning about the toxic in yourself. Life is about removing all the toxic in you. Like for example, when we are babies, we are very pure. As we grow up, we start to have disappointment, frustration, anger, and jealousy. So all these are within us. So as we grow up, and we start to understand this, our journey starts to take out all this toxic one by one. Jealousy maybe, it’s at level 10. But today you can take out one level, so left nine. So you keep taking them out. So I feel that change is not that moment, but it’s just that, oh, we realize and you do it day by day. It’s not that today you read and you will change. It just starts you on the journey. Every day you remove something.
[00:08:38] Cheryl:
Incrementally build up that sense of self-awareness. And with that self-awareness, then you put in the patience, the effort to remove it, as you say, take out the toxins and then become purer and purer in heart and body.
Because you mentioned jealousy as well, I think jealousy is something that is so deeply rooted in all of us. It’s almost deeply rooted in our conditionings. From a young age, when we are in school, jealousy is almost a thing that drives us to excel, ’cause you see that someone else is doing better, someone is scoring more, President of CCA, then you push yourself to do. But what that accumulates is all of us become young adults that are so insecure. They are so fearful and lack the courage to try something new. So it is very, very toxic in a way.
So back to the three phases that you shared in the mission phase, it sounds that everything in your life started to become better. You were finding balance, you’re becoming happier. And ironically, because you found that happiness, that drive, that energy, your Green Dot started to see more success as well, right?
[00:09:44] Yong Hong:
Yeah, it’s all about the mindset. Looking back, I know why I wasn’t so happy when I was starting a business. Because of one mindset, I always tell myself εδΈθ¦εΎθΎθ¦. It means entrepreneurship must be tough. That’s why my mind is really tuned to make my life very tough already. I realize that if I don’t feel that my life is a mess or very miserable, I don’t feel that I’m going through entrepreneurship. That’s when I realized that all the actions I do I subconsciously make my life miserable.
[00:10:15] Cheryl:
Because you need to be hustling and you need to feel awful.
[00:10:18] Yong Hong:
The second mindset, they always say θ΅ι±εΎιΎ, earn money very tough. That’s why I always use very tough ways to earn money. I mean, of course, money is not everything, but money is important. But I realize that money is a byproduct of excellence in the things you do. If you are not earning money, it means you are not so good at the things that are doing yet, money is not attracted to you yet. That’s when I realized that a lot of mindsets make me very, very miserable in the earlier stage of my life.
And I think that Buddhism always talk about in life there’s a lot of suffering but there are actually causes. Buddhism helped me understand what are the causes of my suffering. I start to go deeper into phasing all the internal reasons that lead to my unhappiness. Then that sparked a change in me.
[00:11:06] Cheryl:
Yes. And in the Four Noble Truths, the reason why we are facing so much suffering, so much disappointment is always because we are clinging to something that we wanna be, refusing to accept the way things are. And I think the most beautiful thing about Buddhism is not that it tells you that there is suffering, but it actually tells you there is a way out of suffering and that gives us so much hope to put in the effort to free ourselves from this misery. Can you share maybe one of the biggest challenges that you faced in the mission phase of your career and your life, and if relevant, how did Buddhism specifically help you overcome it?
[00:11:45] Yong Hong:
The biggest challenge was deciding to become a vegetarian honestly, ’cause my whole family is not vegetarian. It’s not difficult for me to be a vegetarian because of my work. My chef always R&D new dishes for me to try. But one of the challenges is my parents. Well, I remember one weekend I told my mom, I want to become a full vegetarian because it’s something that I really believe in.
So my mom says no as usual. She says, ah, why? You don’t eat well, not enough nutrients. I said, but let me try to decide what I want, respect my decision. And then she said, okay. Then the next weekend, because it used to be a habit, every Sunday, they will buy Nasi Lemak or Roti Prata for me. Sunday I woke up. I open up the breakfast. Then it was Nasi Lemak.
[00:12:27] Cheryl:
Oh no, cannot eat.
[00:12:29] Yong Hong:
Yeah. How? Should I eat or should I not eat? To me, it was not a point where I become vegetarian. I tell myself my family, my mother’s belief and respect are still very important. I asked myself as a wise person or wise monk in my situation, what will you do? The key is not to be angry at my mom or parents for not understanding. But the key is becoming a better person after becoming a vegetarian in that I must prove to my mom that, after I become a vegetarian, I’m still her good child that she loves and I want to become a better person. Of course, she starts to accept my decision. But at the initial stage, she was very embarrassed to share with my relative that I’m a vegetarian. Two to three years later, they started to prepare vegetarian options for me. I realized that, ah, finally…
[00:13:15] Cheryl: Getting more acceptance.
[00:13:16] Yong Hong:
So this journey is like that. Buddhism has helped me in practical aspects in facing challenges like that and not be angry or be embarrassed or doubt my own decisions. It’s all about changing your mindset and it’s all about changing yourself. The change can always start with yourself.
[00:13:30] Cheryl:
I think it’s very, very wise of you. Because what you’re doing is that you’re not attaching solely to your view that I am vegetarian now, I must only eat veggies. Everyone must approve. But rather it is being respectful and considerate about other people, yes, and making sure that it’s convenient to them, it doesn’t make them feel slighted that you don’t eat their food. So it’s very wise of you.
[00:13:52] Yong Hong:
It was not easy, but change it’s not immediate. Some things can be immediate. Sometimes know that things take time and patience. Talking about patience, looking back on my entrepreneurship journey. I was from NUS Business School. In school, I have many driven classmates, very intelligent classmates very resourceful classmates. After 10 years, why am I here and getting some results? I realized the key difference is patience.
We wanna believe that if we put in the effort today, we wanna get results tomorrow. But you realize that all these things take time. And I think the biggest, biggest quality that young people need to have is patience. Patience to put in the hard work and live in the moment. When you are working, you enjoy your work. When you are at home watching TV, you enjoy the TV. When you’re in the podcast, you enjoy the podcast. You know that the result will come, but it’s not immediate.
[00:14:48] Cheryl:
But I guess a lot of people do not have patience or lose patience because they do not have faith that the result will come. Any advice that you may have for that?
[00:14:57] Yong Hong: In this world, we need to be more optimistic. As a CEO people always ask, what is your five-year plan, three-year plan, or 10-year plan? Honestly, it’s very hard to plan for a very long term in the context where the word changes very fast. Aim to become a better person every day and become better in what you do. I think that’s the key and the most important thing is being present. I also don’t have a way to tell you to believe that the goal will happen. I think enjoying the moment is more important.
[00:15:29] Cheryl:
Enjoy the process, that’s the outcome. Not the final destination that is the outcome. Because I think when you adopt that kind of approach as well to life, then you allow yourself to open up to the possibility that life could give you, maybe it’s not what exactly you plan for, but it could be something even more beautiful.
[00:15:47] Yong Hong:
Yeah. Because the goal is what we believe is beautiful. But maybe when you reach there, you realize that not necessarily as beautiful as you think it is. But it’s the moment that we open our minds up to awareness, up to what’s happening around us and grab the opportunities, maybe that will be the best journey for us. The goal is what we think is the best for us, but it might not be. When you move forward and open up, then you realize the opportunities change.
[00:16:13] Cheryl:
Wonderful. So stepping a little bit back from the business perspective, the CEO perspective, you have recently become a parent of a beautiful girl and congrats on that.
[00:16:24] Yong Hong:
Yeah. Thank you.
[00:16:25] Cheryl:
I also wanted to ask you on a more personal level, how did becoming a parent change your perspective on mission, meaning and priorities in life?
[00:16:37] Yong Hong:
It is a huge change for me and a very meaningful experience for me because becoming a father. When you look at your child, it makes you feel that whenever you have any problems in your life and work problems, you look at her and all your problems will fade away. It made me realize what’s important in life as well. After I have my baby, of course (some) aspects of my life slowed down. Last time, I used to go to yoga six times a week. Now, one time a week is really a bonus to me. My life is all about work and going home to accompany her. So I realized that it’s about finding a balance. Life cannot be in full throttle in all aspects. So you need to know that sometimes this thing is faster, sometimes this thing is lower and there’s nothing wrong.
Sometimes people get frustrated, ah, because of my child, I have to give up so much. But you have to understand that this is part and parcel of life and instead of thinking that you have to give up, why do you think that this is a happy time for you being with your children? I’m thankful that she’s a happy baby and a healthy baby.
[00:17:42] Cheryl:
That’s wonderful. And even just seeing you speaking about her, I can already see the joy in your eyes, that smile that you have when you’re speaking. It’s so wonderful. And I wonder what’s your aspirations for her when she grows up?
[00:17:55] Yong Hong:
To become a person of good character. Confucius’ teaching has four modules. The first module they learn is always the values. What is the right value? What are the right principles? Second, they learn the way you speak, the way you act. Third, they learn about their culture and history. And last, they learn more about their profession. During my time, we are more focused on studying science to become a doctor or earning a relevant degree to take on a certain profession. In Singapore, what I feel can be even better is values teaching. The most important thing we can do for our children is to let them learn the right values. What I can do is focus on myself, and become a person of good values, so that she will also be inspired to become a good person in the future.
[00:18:39] Cheryl:
In a way, walking the talk, being the role modelfor her. She learns from seeing, from admiring how you behave, how you treat others, your wife and the employees that you have as well. So you were saying just now that all aspects of your life cannot be in full throttle all at the same time. You’ll only go crazy like that. So at this point, it seems like family is taking the forefront. Then how are you balancing or how are you managing the stakeholders at work? What are the aspects of that? Do you tell them like, okay guys, I’m clocking out at five?
[00:19:12] Yong Hong:
So I always believe in knowing your priorities. I believe there are four pillars of life.
The first pillar of life is θΊ«εΏε₯εΊ·, inner and physical health.
Lastly, εΉΏη»εηΌ, making meaningful interaction with people and helping others, giving back.
These four pillars, I think maybe a lot of people understand, but the key is that there’s a priority. You must build upon this in the right order. When you’re very young, some people say, oh, I need a lot of networking. Then you spend a lot of time networking. But all this networking is pointless if you don’t have the first three. See, let’s say you don’t have a career yet. You go and network, but when you network, you are asking people for help. You don’t have the experience and even the resources to help people. Or let’s say you have a very good career but you don’t have a family to fall back on, or you don’t have health to fall back on, that’s where you become empty.
Career will always be very, very tough. Why? Because you take a salary. You must exchange it with your hard work. So if you ever find a work that doesn’t need hard work and gives you a salary, call me. There will always be hard work, which means there will always be disappointment and frustration. It’s okay. Because when you have frustration, then you go home. If you have a wife or husband or mother, you tell your mother, Mommy, today my work was very tough, my boss scolded me. She’ll say, never mind, ok, good girl. That’s where you’ll have a good night’s sleep and you go out and try. Then let’s say you have a hobby, then you fall back on the hobby. You see, your work is very tough, you fall back, you go up again, fall back and go up again. This constant way of falling back and going back again makes you rise up in your career because the two foundations stop you from falling all the way down, keep you there and keep you going up.
[00:21:07] Cheryl:
It’s almost like a bouncing net of resilience. It keeps you bouncing and you bounce higher after that.
[00:21:13] Yong Hong:
That’s why I think that it’s very important to build the pillars of your life. That’s how I make my decisions in life. It’s about priorities. I exercise maybe two or three times a week but that’s the most important for me, I will allocate time to do that, but work and family still take up the majority of my time. It just means your priority, you make time for that. You tell your wife, hey I need to go for this one-hour training. Can you please step in for me? My wife will say, okay, please. We all agree. We know that health is very important.
[00:21:43] Cheryl:
And when you communicate these priorities as well, then it becomes the non-negotiable for you and you’re able to take care of yourself and take care of others. Because when you take care of yourself, you show up better as well to other people. Treat them nicer, and don’t get angry so fast.
[00:21:58] Yong Hong:
That’s how we balance that. And my wife also agrees and we encourage each other, we cover for each other. When we go for our hobbies, our exercise, and things that we need to do to serve the family and our work better.
[00:22:11] Cheryl:
For θΊ«εΏε₯εΊ·, taking care of the physical and the internal mental hygiene I think Buddhism has a lot to contribute there. Some useful exercises that people can do would be a short meditation, daily practice, end-of-day journaling or even starting your day with gratitude and contentment. Just wake up and find two to three things that you’re thankful for to be alive at this moment. Yes. And that can definitely help keep a very, very healthy mood and well-being. Any other tips, Yong Hong?
[00:22:42] Yong Hong:
I think reading. Reading has been a huge part of my life. If you don’t like reading, you can do audiobooks. I spend a lot of time on the road, I spend a lot of resources on reading and learning. I think it’s very important. So many things are happening in the world, and we tend to be FOMO, fear of missing out. But Buddhism has taught me that actually the key is not to be so worried about things that keep happening, but rather learn a lot more about the right values, and the right principle. This will guide you to make decisions even without knowing what’s happening all around the world. We need to be updated on the news but don’t feel like we miss out a lot or you feel very nervous because we don’t know a lot of things happening. It’s more about understanding the values, principles that help you make better decisions.
And of course, I feel that learning is also learning about yourself and growing a lot more by learning about the bad things about yourself. Looking at cycles in your life, like for example, you used to argue with a friend in this company. You say, oh my friends are very bad, always bad mouth me. You change to another company, but things still happen and you say, this company is not good. The culture is not good, the boss is not good. Then you change. Then after you change again, you argue again, ah, the cleaner auntie is not good. That’s why I argue. So I realize that the problem is who?
[00:23:55] Cheryl:
You! You’re the only constant in those, those environments.
[00:24:00] Yong Hong:
Look at the bad cycles in our life and jump out of bad cycles, that’s how you always improve in different aspects of life, just reflect. It’s one of the very useful ways in improving your life.
[00:24:12] Cheryl:
Yeah, and that really reminds me of a quote, the problem never goes away until you learn from it. Then that’s how you solve it and resolve it, and then it will go away on its own. I think we’ve had a really long, wonderful conversation. Talking about your entrepreneurial journey, talking about your learnings and growth from the Buddhism aspect. I see that it’s really peppered in your life principles, in even some of the decisions that you make as well. Touching a little bit about how having a daughter really brings to the forefront what is important, while at the same time balancing the other pillars of your life.
So if you were to end on one piece of advice to young adults out there who are trying to find purpose, what is that one piece of advice that you’d share with them?
[00:24:57] Yong Hong:
Of course, the first thing is, what is your definition of success? There’s no right or wrong. I think this success changes according to age and what you’ve been through. So you define what is success to you at this moment in time and the next three to five years. Even if you say at this moment I wanna have a lot of money, okay, it can also be so, but just be happy doing it. When you face challenges in trying to go for a goal, just accept it because it’s what you define as success.
The second thing, after you define, it’s good to focus on who you are becoming rather than what you are accumulating. Cause what you are accumulating is attracted to you. It’s not that you chase after them. So focus on who you are becoming. If you become a person of good values, good quality, good leadership, or you have good skills, good things follow you, and good people will follow you.
[00:25:45] Cheryl:
Thanks for sharing and thanks for your time throughout this entire podcast. Thanks, everybody and I hope you continue to stay happy and wise. If you like this episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify. Thank you. Bye…
[00:25:59] Yong Hong: Bye…
Resources:
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, SuΓ±Γ±a, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang
Editor and transcriber of this episode: Tee Ke Hui, Cheryl Cheah, Koh Kai Xin
Jason* is a pseudonym as this topic is very sensitive and involves many other people’s stories. Jason wants to be mindful and avoid implicating the people involved in the past relationships, and thus an altered voice and pseudonym are used.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Cheryl:
Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. My name is Cheryl, and I’m your host today. We will be talking about the topic of cheating and can leopards ever change their spots? We have a very interesting guest who has courageously come up to share his experiences of being cheated on as well as cheating on his partners.
So I invite you to listen with an open mind as we delve into his past, to understand why people cheat, as well as to explore the question of whether someone who has cheated should be forgiven.
Can they be forgiven? Can they ever change? This episode will be enjoyed best with earphones because we will be altering the voice of this person and using a pseudonym*. So with that, let’s get started.
Hi Jason*, thanks for coming to this episode to speak to us today on the condition of anonymity. So I think first off, I would love to understand what’s your definition of cheating.
[00:01:06] Jason:
I think generally most people talk about cheating in two forms, emotional cheating, and physical cheating. Physical cheating would be engaging in sexual behaviour with someone else apart from my partner. To make it clear, in this case, it’s not just sexual behaviour, but nonconsensual sexual behaviour.
[00:01:25] Cheryl:
Thanks for clarifying that for us. And maybe you can also share with us your experiences of cheating.
[00:01:32] Jason:
For my experience of being cheated on, it’s very interesting. I think till today, I have no clarity on whether it actually happened. Before the time of smartphones and dating apps, we had to use IRC Chats to get to know people. I, later on, found out that even though we were together, he went out to the IRC channels to meet other people with the intent of dating. So that to me felt like it should be cheating already. But that was my first relationship. I went through many years trying to think whether that counts as cheating or not.
[00:02:07] Cheryl:
Well, it must have been very confusing for you because it’s also your first experience and what did you feel?
[00:02:14] Jason:
The initial reaction was shock, then came, is it true? Could it be someone else impersonating my boyfriend? So when I actually tried to clarify he gave many reasons. I was just like, am I being cheated on? What’s happening? What am I supposed to do? It’s just very overwhelming.
[00:02:35] Cheryl:
I see. And I think that is really inflicting a lot of pain inside you as well, where you have to doubt yourself, doubt whether your partner is lying to you or not, or are they actually telling the truth.
Putting into the context of Buddhism. So Buddhism doesn’t really have the connotation of sin or whether things are right or wrong, but rather, sexual misconduct where cheating is actually viewed as unskillful and unwholesome because it causes a lot of pain to other people. It harms other people. In the context of cause and effect, when you do something bad, you’re really planting the seeds for something bad to happen in the future whenever that ripens. I think you really brought out the point that it just causes a lot of unwholesome states of mind to arise within yourself as well.
[00:03:30] Jason:
Cheating as a behaviour itself causes a lot of harm. At the same time, I feel that it indicates that generally there’s a deeper issue at hand. This might be a precursor to even more unskillful behaviour that may happen later down the road. So some people may think that it seems like a very small, innocuous action but the effects are quite severe.
[00:03:53] Cheryl:
And tell us a little bit more. So how did that manifest in yourself? And in a way, how did that experience of cheating kind of lead you down this vicious cycle of hurt where you eventually then became someone who cheated on others at some point in your life?
[00:04:09] Jason:
My ex-partner and I, we both hurt each other a lot. At one point, I was threatened with suicide and a lot of emotional manipulation. It’s not unfair to say that I was traumatised by the first relationship, and I didn’t know how to recover from it. So I started dating very serially, rebound partner after partner. Even if I didn’t feel like I was in love with the person, I just kinda crave another person.
Eventually when I realised that I wanted to end the relationship, but I didn’t know how, subconsciously what happened was, I cheated in order to get out of the relationship. Yeah, in hindsight it’s really horrible, but I look back and I realised that at that point in time, I had no idea what I was doing. That sounds like I’m probably trying to find excuses for the cheating but that felt like what was happening.
[00:05:01] Cheryl:
And how do you come to that realisation then?
[00:04:57] Jason:
It took many years. It took a few relationships and very unfortunately, that was not the only time I cheated. After the death of a loved one, I decided that I wanted to see a therapist. With the therapist, I worked through a lot of different issues about grief, about relationships, about the cheating behaviour. At one point, there was a question that was always on my mind. Since I have cheated before, does that mean that I’m a cheater and I will always be a cheater? It took me many years of therapy and a lot of work on myself to discover that I cannot define myself by my behaviours.
[00:05:31] Cheryl:
Yeah, I think that’s a tricky one, right? I know people who have been cheated on before, and they will be in that dilemma where, can I trust my partner again? Or am I just being stupid? Because in a way, a leopard never changes its spots. Right? What can I do once this trust is broken?
But as you mentioned, a lot of things, the actions, the behaviours are really just the superficial layer and there are always underlying reasons or root causes behind them. Not to say that the behaviour is correct. I mean it causes harm, causes hurt. You can’t deny that. But if we go deeper, we can really see that there are a lot of root causes there.
I’m just curious, for yourself it was because you experienced a hurt very deep from all the trauma from your first relationship, and it was kind of like your defense mechanism to then hurt your future partners, is it?
[00:06:33] Jason:
Yes. I think you put it very well. It was a defense mechanism, to hurt before I get hurt. It’s quite sad and looking back the amount of hurt I inflicted on my ex-partner was very unfortunate. The person had no hand in whatever trauma I received. But looking back, this behaviour caused so much hurt to my ex-partner, an innocent party, for no good reason.
[00:06:55] Cheryl:
I see. Because it’s very complicated, right? When you were in the moment, you really didn’t know what you want. I guess all you felt was just a desire to go on the app to find someone else, but you can’t really pinpoint what’s happening as well. So how can we avoid even putting ourselves in these situations where we may lose control? How can we better create conditions to not hurt other people so much?
[00:07:21] Jason:
That’s a difficult question and I’m glad I’ve gone through sufficient therapy and worked on myself and I have my spiritual practice to support me on that. How to stop? Should I not put myself in situations where it is likely that this behaviour will happen? If it’s subconscious, are you sure that you can stop it? Cheating is never just that one spur-of-the-moment decision. What we see is that action. What we don’t see is what happens behind that led to that action. Maybe there’s some unhappiness in the relationship or there is something that the person doesn’t want to handle within themselves.
So for me, I didn’t want to handle the hurt from the previous relationship. So, I just diverted my attention outwards. And when some additional trauma comes in internally, then I think it spills over, and whatever external measures I put in, it’ll all be pointless. So what I realized is that we must always work on ourselves. Whether you’re in a relationship or not, make sure that you’re a person who can live a wholesome life so that you don’t bring your personal problems into a relationship, or you don’t cause the relationship problems to be unable to be resolved because your own personal issues are standing in the way.
[00:08:37] Cheryl:
Yeah, it does make sense and it really gives me a different light because a lot of times people are very quick to judge or condemn people who cheat, and straight away criticize and judge and put a lot of labels. But then as you share, I realize that there’s so much suffering within one person to bring them to that action of cheating and of course all the steps that it takes to reach that behavior. They cannot contain it anymore and then it just spills over. Sadly, with this spilling over, it burns them as well.
Any practical tips that you think could be helpful? Maybe stop using the apps when you’re in a relationship or don’t look at people who walk around with blinders.
[00:09:12] Jason:
Practical tips? My response to what you said about not installing the apps. I thought that would work. I honestly tell you, I’ve tried it. But the horrifying thing is that, when the intention is there, whatever you want to make happen, you probably can. So, a practical tip I would say is to get in touch with your inner self whether it’s through meditation, or through other means available for you. Find out what are the areas of your life that may cause you problems when you’re in a relationship. A lot of people like to use this term, oh I’ve already found my better half, or my other half. My own personal belief is that we need to be whole before we go and meet another person so that we are two people who are whole that come together in a relationship that is healthy and they both grow.
[00:09:55] Cheryl:
You’ve brought up a very important point thatthe mind is the forerunner of all things. If you don’t take care of your mind, you don’t prioritize mental hygiene, then you know that uncleanliness will spill out one form or the other, and no external thing, no people will be able to fix you for you, you gotta fix you for yourself. But of course, we can always lean on others but not a hundred percent, and throw our problems at them.
[00:10:22] Jason:
To allow my mind to be less likely to tend towards such things, the Buddhist principle of morality is very important. And it’s something for us to practice on a daily basis. Tend your mind towards wholesome thoughts, wholesome behaviours, and actions, so that the imprint on your mind will be more wholesome and that it slowly grows with time, and we let go of the more unwholesome behaviour, which goes back to the Noble Eightfold Path, Right Effort in this case.
[00:10:50] Cheryl:
Indeed. Really plus one to that because I feel like the undercurrents of greed, hatred, ill-will or delusion is very, very strong. And for me, sometimes I find it very fascinating that it can come out so strongly. Generally, I’m a normal person. I don’t have very crazy thoughts. I don’t indulge too much in violence, but when I feel either very hurt or I feel betrayed or if I don’t get something that I really want, the thoughts of anger, of wanting to hurt people can come up very strongly. As you said, if we practice inclining our minds towards wholesome states, towards skillfulness, then that restraint really helps to protect us to actually turn all of those thoughts into action.
I think we can also segue into moving beyond the identity of both being cheated on and all the connotations that you may hold about that, as well as someone who has done these actions. What was your journey in forgiving others and forgiving yourself?
[00:11:54] Jason:
Forgiving others turns out to be easier than forgiving myself.
[00:11:57] Cheryl:
Oh, interesting.
[00:11:59] Jason:
I think what helped was realizing that this person was very hurt and therefore might have acted without being fully conscious about what he was doing.
It feels like cheating is like trauma and like how intergenerational trauma works. If a person has been hurt so much and is unable to process that hurt and let go of that hurt, that person will go on to hurt other people.
I think forgiving that person came a lot easier when I realised to have compassion for the other person, knowing that this person doesn’t have the intent to hurt. And to be fair, I think nobody on Earth has a true intention to hurt. I believe that. But if somebody is hurting, there must be some reason that the person is unaware of.
But forgiving myself, that was a whole different ball game. The question about, will I always be a cheater? haunted my mind so much. I had a friend who told me, my principle is I’ll never make friends with cheaters. But you, Jason, you’re my good friend and I understand what happened. Her forgiveness might have helped me to also see that she hates the behaviour, but she doesn’t hate the person. That made me realize that at some point, I need to separate the behaviour from the sense of me. I cannot keep latching on to that behaviour, identifying with that behaviour.
[00:13:24] Cheryl:
Where you’re able to see the entirety of yourself as bigger than the acts that you have committed.
[00:13:34] Jason:
I think that was why the first time I encountered a teaching by Ajahn Brahm, one of his famous stories, it’s about the two bad bricks in the wall. He misaligned two bricks and all he could see was that these two bricks were just so horrible that they ruin the whole wall. Until one day he realized that there are so many other beautiful bricks there.
He used that story to explain that when he went to a prison to teach, he didn’t see prisoners, he didn’t see rapists. He saw people who murdered, people who raped. But apart from looking at just this behaviour, there’re so many other aspects of this person that we can look at. That teaching touched me deeply. It made me realize that there are so many other aspects of myself. Even though, yes, I made a mistake, it’s a really horrible mistake, I made it more than once. But that doesn’t mean that I’m a person who is incorrigible.
[00:14:23] Cheryl:
Yeah, Sadhu. Very good to see that you’ve come around to this. I think it’s important to not let yourself be burdened by all of this guilt as well because if you keep carrying that burden of I’m not a good person and berating yourself, it just causes you to be in a very unwholesome mindset state. When you’re in an unwholesome mindset state, when you’re not thinking clearly, habitual tendencies can arise more quickly. So when you are moving away into a lighter mind state where you are at least abiding in forgiveness, in self-love, in mettΔ, unconditional loving kindness, then the clarity of mind is there to inform you to make wiser decisions the next time you’re in difficult situations as well.
[00:15:08] Jason:
Yeah, and it feels like common sense but it actually took me a while to grasp the fact that I need metta for myself, so that once I can sort out all the hurt from the past, then I can have the capacity to go and stop harming others, be kind to others. If I want to be kind to others, I must first start with myself. By being kind to myself, I stop holding on to the past and let the past hold me back.
[00:15:36] Cheryl:
Very beautiful. I’m just curious, I don’t know if you have had any closure with that person. But if he were to listen in and you were able to share with him something, what would you say?
[00:15:45] Jason:
I would say, thank you for the good times we had. As much as we’ve both hurt each other a lot, I think now looking back, I’ve tried to find things I’m thankful for, things that I’ve learned in the relationship. And I forgive you because it’s what is not easy to do. Made me realize that we all are hurting in this world. I hope that youβre having a good life and that all of us can take good care of ourselves and stop hurting others.
That’s a great question. I feel like I’m in some therapy session. That was an amazing question.
[00:16:24] Cheryl:
I’m sure a lot of our listeners will feel deeply touched by you really acknowledging the suffering and the capacity for us to continue to love, and continue to be kind. And what would you say to Jason in the past?
[00:16:38] Jason:
I would say, you tried your best. There were times when you didn’t know what you were doing. You were hurt so deeply, by so many things in life. Maybe you hope that you could have done better, that you shouldnβt have done all this and youβre probably scolding yourself for being such a messed up person, for hurting other people and everything.
I just wanna tell you, it’s okay. Let go of all these. Don’t have to hold on to it. It really hurts a lot to hold on to all these. It may cause you to hurt even more people later on. If you can just let that go, I assure you that you’ll become a really beautiful person down the road.
[00:17:16] Cheryl:
Wow. I think that was not just for Jason. It really goes into all of our hearts because we’ve all done things that we’re not very proud of, big or small. I’m sure there are some things that we still hold against ourselves, but allowing ourselves to let go and forgive. That’s a very, very beautiful way to end our episode today.
We covered a little bit about cheating, the experiences of Jason being cheated on, and how that hurt propelled him into a really dark place in life, where hurting others and cheating multiple times was almost his only way of finding happiness at that point. We talked about how we forgive ourselves and not define ourselves as just the bad acts that we do, but also look into all the 98 other beautiful bricks that we have within ourselves. That gives us more confidence, gives us more strength to love others, love ourselves, and create less harm in this world.
[00:18:18] Jason:
Wow. What a beautiful way to end this and I just want to say thank you for making this podcast a lot less difficult than I thought. I’m very thankful to you for all the really great questions. Going through this podcast has helped me to learn a lot and to reinforce the message for me to be even kinder to myself.
[00:18:35] Cheryl:
Sadhu Sadhu. I hope all of our listeners will also take away something and continue to stay happy and wise and see you in the next episode.
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Editor and transcriber of this episode: Tee Ke Hui, Cheryl Cheah, Koh Kai Xin
Venerable Thubten Damcho is a Buddhist nun residing at Sravasti Abbey, one of the first Tibetan Buddhist training monasteries in the United States. Born and raised in Singapore, she graduated from Princeton University in 2006 and worked as a high school teacher and public policy analyst in the Singapore government before returning to the U.S. to take novice ordination in 2013. She tells her story in The Straits Times Singapore.
Venerable Damcho’s monastic life is rich and varied. She serves as assistant to Sravasti Abbeyβs founder, author and well-known Buddhist teacher Venerable Thubten Chodron. Her other responsibilities range from translating Chinese texts into English to removing weeds from the Abbey’s 300-acre property. Venerable Damcho has given Dharma talks in Spokane, Idaho, California, India, and Singapore. She was the Chinese-English interpreter at a full ordination program in Taiwan in 2019, and has studied Tibetan through Maitripa College and with other teachers since 2017.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Kai Xin:
Hi everyone, it’s me again. Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life. I’m Kai Xin. I started a business at the age of 19.
[00:00:12] Cheryl:
Hi, I am Cheryl. I started my anxiety, which is my best achievement from the age of 15.
[00:00:19] Venerable Damcho:
Hi, I’m Thubten Damcho and I graduated from Princeton on a Public Service Commission scholarship.
[00:00:27] Kai Xin:
And today we are gonna talk about the overachiever mindset, hence the introduction. We are gonna share more of our overachievements in this episode and how to balance that with our Buddhist practice. Venerable, for listeners who haven’t heard of you or listened to the previous episode, which was fantastic on sex and the Buddhist, can you share with our listeners a little bit of your background?
[00:00:53] Venerable Damcho:
So I was born and raised in Singapore. I went overseas on scholarship and I was on track to have a very good career in civil service. But along the way I met the Buddha Dhamma and that really got me questioning my priorities in life. And eventually, I ordained here at Shravasti Abbey.
I live in Newport, Washington, in the U.S. We’re on the West Coast and I’ve lived here for 10 years now. I received my novice ordination in 2013, and then I received higher ordination in Taiwan in 2016. So it’s always a delight to reconnect with everyone in Singapore. So thank you for having me here again.
[00:01:26] Kai Xin:
Thank you for being back. On the topic on overachievers, I just wanna ask all of you, do you consider yourself an overachiever?
[00:01:35] Cheryl:
I think so. From young, I’ve always had that mindset that I need to be the best at what I do. When I went to school, I got a scholarship to Singapore. I’m from Malaysia. And when I went to Singapore, I had to go to the best school, the most elite school. I won’t name it, but it’s one of the top elite schools. When I went to uni, it had to be the best in some sort of field. When I start work, it had to be the best in some industry. When I have my anxiety, I need to have the worst critic, the most overachieving critic to beat myself up. So yes, overachieving in all different senses. What about you, Venerable Damcho?
[00:02:09] Venerable Damcho:
I love this question because I’ve never thought of myself as an overachiever because I’m always number two. I’m just never good enough. So how could I be a real overachiever? I think for me, underneath that need to achieve is a strong sense of I’m just never good enough.
The first time I ever heard someone call me an overachiever was Brother PJ. He was actually my next-door neighbor, and we reconnected after I came back from the U.S. and so did he, and he was just casually saying, “This is how overachievers behave”. I was like, that’s not me. What are you talking about? So it’s actually been a slow revelation of what these behaviors mean because to me it seemed very normal or I guess I was placed into student groups where everybody behaved that way, so it seemed very normal.
And then your whole idea of what is success or failure is so skewed. I remember for the mock PSLE in my class, I got 91, which is still A* and I felt very proud of myself because my math is very poor and the class average I think was 94. So, 91 was below average. So because of that, I don’t see myself as an overachiever. And some of that is a lack of self-cognizance, self-awareness, I think.
[00:03:22] Kai Xin:
It’s interesting you say that because I can relate. I am also not number one, but somehow people call me an overachiever, so I scratch my head just like, yeah I’m quite average, right? I mean, I didn’t go to elite school. I didn’t even finish or pursue any further studies or get a degree. My highest education is a diploma in Business Studies. I think it’s maybe the accolades or track record that I’m associated with, that people say, “Kai Xin, you’re so smart, you’ve achieved so many things”. But deep down inside, I’m just struggling. If I were to look back, I did exhibit overachieving behaviors and mindsets. I have to study really hard, get good grades and just keep being very restless in striving and striving. So, I literally can’t sit still. I have to go for electives, CCA, partake in competition, win some medals. I have all these things on my shelf and I still don’t feel really good about myself. There’s still this imposter syndrome that’s like, am I really good?
There’s just never an end to the chase until I met the Dhamma, which brings us to another part of this conversation. I think the whole mode of striving, if it’s kind of misdirected, it can be unhealthy and not very conducive to the practice. So I’m actually quite curious to know, Venerable, when you became a nun, do you see any of these tendencies change?
[00:04:47] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah, slowly over time. I think first of all to even recognize the tendency. I moved here 10 years ago. The first time I sat a long three-month winter retreat, I had some goals. What are you gonna do with yourself if you don’t have goals to achieve? We’re talking about realistic goals, so Stream Entry, right? I wrote it out. So I was like, okay, let’s be real. Stream Entry can be done. Name what those things are. I actually really had a thought, maybe by the end of three months I will be able to walk through a wall. Yes, that’s how deluded I was. I was like, it’s possible. You just have to put the effort in. That’s how it’s been your whole life.
We have the Nine Stages of Sustained Attention or something like Nine Stages to Cultivating Serenity. Sometimes in the Tibetan Thangka’s you see a person with an elephant and a monkey. And it’s all symbolic of the stages of moving towards SamΔdhi. Then you have to combine that with insight. The first time I read this, I was like, oh, there are these nine steps. Now with clear instructions, sometimes you find the object, sometimes you are able to stay on it longer and longer and then you lose it.
Throughout the retreat, I was constantly asking what stage am I at? Is this stage one? Is this stage two? After a certain part I was like, oh, I think it’s really hard to even get to stage three, which is more sustained attention on the breath or whatever object it is. And I just really started to push. I would sit extra long sessions. I was so disappointed somewhere in the middle of the retreat, realizing I’m not gonna get past stage three or you’re gonna be stuck here. Even stage three itself is amazing to accomplish. But then I didn’t see that as an affliction at the time. It’s just how I’ve lived my whole life. So at the end of retreat, I realized, this is how I approach everything, with a lot of, let’s just push and make it through.
So just that slow recognition and then to see that repeat in so many areas of my life here at the monastery. I think it’s just having that space where I start to recognize these things. So, the next year I thought, okay, we’re not gonna push a retreat. Then I found myself distracted and I created some huge projects outside of the retreat. I’m sitting five sessions a day and then I’m gonna go and translate this very complex thing in all my breaks. I’m not gonna achieve it in the retreats, I’m gonna achieve it somewhere else, again, and again and again.
Venerable Chodron was instrumental in helping to point out these habits to me. She’s my teacher and the Abbess of the monastery. These are some habits and they don’t serve me. I really have to rethink how I approach my life. So, yeah, it’s been a slow process.
[00:07:17] Cheryl:
Two things that are particularly interesting to me. One is that you didn’t realize the afflictions that you were in. I think that’s the problem that a lot of us have. We just don’t know that we are in pain or we don’t know that we are suffering, and then we just continue with the same lifestyle until one day, either you have a terrible breakdown or your body just stops functioning. Then you’re like, I’ve been living life in a horrible way. I have inflicted so much pain on myself. That’s where you start to look for a way out and think, maybe I should change a little bit.
The second thing that was very interesting to me was the idea of how very strong habitual tendencies, if you don’t work with it, it can always change the object. First, it’s the meditation. Second, it could be some other project that you’re interested in. I thought that was very interesting and very relatable as well because I also never really understood my anxiety. Like I never really understood what is it for, what is it trying to protect? And it was kind of a pain. I was like, it’s good, if I’m not anxious, if I’m not critical of myself, I would just be a sloth and my whole life will just crumble. I never really saw how painful it really was to myself.
Just reflecting on my meditation practice as well, I realize I bring that into the cushion, the overachieving tendencies. It manifests in terms of so much tension because you must control how the sit is like. I need to experience that calm, and the calm cannot just be short, it must be long. It must be vision and brightness and everything like that. I just wanted to point out.
[00:08:42] Kai Xin:
Totally. There was once during Wesak Day, there were so many things going on. I was volunteering then I committed to sitting overnight and that was the worst overnight sit that I’ve ever experienced because I keep opening my eyes. It is starting at 9:00 PM then it ends at 4:00 AM where we do the morning chanting. Every single 10-minute block is just excruciating. And I keep telling myself, I’ve a lot of things that I need to do tomorrow. Am I able to do it? Here I am, having inner critics. I’m supposed to be peaceful, I’m not feeling peaceful. Why is everyone sitting so still? How long is this gonna last? I was so in pain that at 3:00 AM or so, close to 4:00 AM, I really just gave up. I went back, I took a cab and I was in tears.
The funny thing was, my mom knew about my intention to sit overnight and she discouraged me from doing so. I had this sense of ego, right? Ah, I’m gonna go back. My mom is gonna find out that I didn’t sit through the night, and she’s gonna say, “See lah, I told you already, don’t push yourself so hard”. I can’t stand that. So, my plan was to be very quiet, open the gate, and before she wakes up in the morning, I would wake up first and then go to the Wesak Day to volunteer. But lo and behold, I forgot to bring my house keys. And I tell you, I felt so lousy about myself. I really felt like a failure. I have no choice but to ring the doorbell and gonna get all these nagging.
At that point in time, it was quite an aha moment for me. I’m like, Hey, I’m suffering, you know? The practice is supposed to lead me out of suffering, but here I am clinging on to this idea of, I have to commit to my intention. I have to feel peaceful. Everybody else can’t know what’s going on inside me.
I was just wondering, from a Buddhist perspective, what do you think is the root cause of all this desire to achieve and how do we know when it is bringing us pain? How do we know when the pain of striving, which is sometimes good, can actually lead us to the end of pain? There are two parts, right? Pain leading to more pain. Pain leading to less pain.
[00:10:41] Venerable Damcho:
That’s a really powerful story actually. Your recognition of all those things going on in your mind, especially the I’ve gotta look like I have it together. I think that’s a really good clue.
From a Buddhist perspective, all our afflictions arise on the basis of ignorance functioning in many ways, right? First of all, thinking, here’s this real person in this body who has this mind, a possessor of it who is the mind, and so there’s someone here that achieves things that all these external things relate to. Here’s my achievement, my trophy, my accolades, and they reflect on me. Even just seeing ourselves in that way, seeing the external world as objective things separate from me and my mind that I have to obtain to be successful, or control. I want certain things. How am I gonna get them? Control the external world, which is very different from just creating the cause and seeing things in terms of dependent arising. On the basis of that, we get fixated on trying to organize everything.
And I think with achievement or this kind of painful striving, what’s at work is what we call the eight worldly concerns. That’s one of the teachings in the graduated stages of the Path to Awakening that we study in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. It’s craving for material success or material wealth and aversion for poverty or lack of wealth. Attachment to sense pleasure and strong aversion to unpleasant sensory experiences. Especially with the achievement piece, it’s attachment to your good reputation and complete aversion to having a bad one, and then attachment to praise, wanting people to say nice things about you and aversion to blame. It could vary for each person, which is the main driver. So sometimes we’ve had discussion groups here, look at which one is the main driver in your daily life behavior.
For me personally, it’s very much about attachment to praise or blame, especially from people I consider very important.
[00:12:41] Kai Xin:
You mentioned the root cause of the painful striving, is ignorance. Just to help our listeners here, you mentioned the Eight Worldly Winds, right? So there are four pairs. Praise and blame. Pain and pleasure. Gain and loss. Fame and disrepute. And because it comes in pairs, that means either side, we would suffer. Then how do we find the balance?
[00:13:03] Venerable Damcho:
I would say we have to step out of that framework completely. That’s the problem with these kinds of dichotomous frameworks. You get stuck in this, it’s either this or that. For a start, recognizing their disadvantages. Is this way of thinking serving me or not? Does it bring about benefits? Does it benefit other people? Does it benefit myself? And really making examples from our own experience.
Especially with the eight worldly concerns, what’s helped me so much is coming back to my motivation for what I’m doing, and focusing on what’s happening internally. With overachievement, it’s what am I getting outside? What’s this external thing? Whether it’s sense pleasure or some material thing. But now I come back to, why am I engaging in this activity? What kind of internal benefit is it going to bring for myself or for others?
If I’m very, very clear about my motivation for doing something and that it’s a long-term motivation, it brings benefits now and in the future. It might be painful in the short term, but I know it’s going to be beneficial in the long term, then it’s worthwhile. Then no matter what happens, people criticize me or whatever, I can come back to, wait a second, the starting point is good, my motivation is clear. That’s helped me a lot. Just coming back to that, taking time to really get clear about my motivation.
I’m thinking of when I used to teach. I really wanna benefit these students. But along the way, could this also be about my job performance? Because I’m a school teacher and how they do at school reflects on my teaching skills and the bonus I’m gonna get. Is that creeping in? I want this to be about the students. How do I make sure I pull that back? If it’s really genuinely about the students, then I always have the energy to keep going. It doesn’t fall into, you have to perform, everyone, on this test by the end of the year. I don’t care what you’re going through. I’m not looking at you as human beings. I wanna see those grades, which is really awful.
[00:14:54] Cheryl:
It’s so important to routinely check with yourself and remind yourself, what’s your motivation, what’s your intention? When we do that as well, it can help us to fixate less on the outcome goal and start to take note of the little progress throughout the journey as well, which can help us to take a more relaxed attitude and a more open and exploratory approach to wherever we want to get to.
[00:15:19] Kai Xin:
That’s interesting, and it almost seems like the achievement is the result of our good intention and effort, versus how originally if it’s misplaced, it would be the desire to overachieve driving us. We might not necessarily get the result that we want and that’s where our whole world crumbles because it comes from external sources, which is beyond our control. We can’t even control our own minds, what more what other people think of us or how other people would like to recognize us or reward us, et cetera. I find that to be very, very powerful.
I also wonder, because sometimes people might have this saying, don’t try so hard. I literally had Dhamma brothers and sisters come up to me and say, Kai Xin, I think you’re trying very hard. Maybe you should let go a little bit. But then I’m thinking, is it really about not trying hard or is it about trying hard the right way? If I were to recollect, the Buddha did try very hard. He touched the earth and he’s like, may the earth be my witness until I attain enlightenment. And he literally had to fight his defilements in order to realize what he realized and have the compassion to teach us. So it’s not dualistic per se. Then again, how do we reconcile? Are there certain signposts that you would look out for beyond the inner intention? How do you know you’re trying too hard, not trying so hard?
[00:16:46] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. But before that, to really look at what is this drive to overachieve before we get into the setting a good intention part. When we start to recognize some of these behaviors are perhaps perceived as excessive by other people. True or not true? What is my motivation behind this? Sometimes people come to tell us these things because they are our friends and they’re concerned.
When I first moved to the Abbey, people are like, you should take a break. I’m like, what are you talking about? Or you’re not getting enough sleep. I’m like, sleep is for the weak. I heard that as judgment. Like you said, you don’t like people to tell you, just relax. I’m like, leave me alone, I run my own life.
It took me a long time to even hear, okay, there’s some concern there. People are perceiving that I’m not balanced. You’re so fixated on the external achievement, you don’t see, oh, maybe I’m neglecting my relationships. Maybe that’s what my friends are saying. Or I’m losing my temper with them. The people who care about us are seeing something out of whack. Yeah. I will say that was the chief motivator in me, pausing and rethinking all these behaviors.
We had a community workshop here where we wrote feedback for each other. And mine was around, people are just concerned that you spend so much time working. This is taking you away from the community. I thought, wow. And that was the first time I actually started to listen to feedback and really look inside and see, yeah, what is driving that need to overachieve?
Because like you said, if the need is to feel better about ourselves, no external thing is gonna accomplish that. And that’s the painful setup, right? No matter how many trophies you have, I still feel lousy. Yeah. So if the striving is to heal some kind of internal sense of lack, make sure you’re not barking up the wrong tree. That’s right striving, right? It’s first of all, checking up on what is driving the striving, what are you actually trying to accomplish.
There was a young woman who came to the Abbey, who grew up with a lot of trauma. She was abused but externally presented as so incredibly successful, making tons of money in Silicon Valley and all that. And it was very interesting for me to watch her journey here. Letting go of the career was terrifying, right? She saw that the whole overachievement was like a shield. To protect her from a world that was abusing her, right? It’s like, if I have this career, if I have the money, if I’m independent, nobody can trap me. Nobody can bully me. This is my defense.
So, you know, I don’t come from a background of abuse, so it was interesting to see that’s one thing that can drive the overachieving. What is it for me? So for me, a lot of it was hoping to have love. Thinking having all these external things is going to bring love. And the moment I recognized that, it was like, oh, I don’t need it from outside. I can love myself.
So, yeah. I don’t know. Your thoughts? What’s driving that need to achieve?
[00:19:34] Cheryl:
I have so many thoughts on this. Is it true that it’s completely internal? Only we can give ourselves a reliable sense of happiness and love. Is it bad if we outsource it on external? What’s the balance? 50% external, 50% internal?
Because I was having a conversation with a friend who’s not Buddhist, I was like, you know, I’m camp internal. It’s all inside you. You can control that, you can generate it, you can train that right, purify your mind. And they were like, oh my God, you Buddhists are horrible. We need validation. We need people to love us and let us know we are worthy. That’s nice. That’s pleasant. That’s fun. So what is the balance that we should be ideally striving for in a healthy way?
[00:20:15] Venerable Damcho:
My goodness. I love our overachiever vocabulary. I just need to step back and say, is it right, is it wrong? Should I be doing this? What is the percentage? We need data.
[00:20:25] Kai Xin:
Oh yeah, that’s so true.
[00:20:28] Venerable Damcho:
This invisible world of standards that is shaping you that you don’t even know.
Yeah. It was a counselor who pointed that out to me. You might wanna look at some of the standards you have. And I looked at her like, what do you mean standards I hold, this is the way, the truth, the life. The world’s like this. I’m like this. You are like this.
Anyway. I think we come back to the principle of dependent arising, right? Multiple causes and conditions. In Buddhist practice, a lot of the emphasis is on what we can cultivate internally. But of course, yeah, you’re influenced by your peer groups, right? So sensibly, if your practice is not very strong, don’t hang out with people who are going to make you commit non-virtue, support you in committing non-virtue. It’s a balance of both, I would think.
Listening to advice from wise people. It’s who you trust to help you understand who you are. Do I trust the friends who are encouraging me to do things that are not beneficial or do I listen to my teacher, whom I trust is wise? If my teacher is disapproving, I will think carefully, not necessarily judge myself or feel poorly, but think, okay, something’s up here that I really need to look at.
[00:21:35] Kai Xin:
Yeah. It seems like there’s no black and white, like 50-50, 80-20. And it’s just about sitting with the uncertainty that maybe there is no right answer.
I think for my personal experience to answer Cheryl’s question is to also have the discernment to understand, okay, at this point in life, do I have the capacity to accept myself? And if I’m honest and truthful, I know, maybe I need to lean on somebody to offer me strength first before I can then offer strength within for myself. But to eventually realize that we can only rely on ourselves till the end, but we need somebody to walk the journey with us.
[00:22:15] Venerable Damcho:
From a Buddhist perspective, what can be shocking to your friend who’s non-Buddhist, is that refuge is the Dhamma. It’s not a human being. The refuge is in our realizations. It’s in the compassion and the wisdom that we’re realizing in our own mindstream, and it’s the compassion and wisdom that’s in someone else’s mindstream.
Like right now, what’s very big in our community is that a major teacher just passed away. Lama Zopa Rinpoche passed away suddenly, and people are shocked, or grieving. Venerable Chodron has been giving talk after talk about how the physical manifestation of your teacher passes away but what he has left with you is the teaching that you have every single day. That’s what this person was trying to impart to you. Same with the Buddha, right? He’s like, don’t cry or grieve. The Vinaya is your teacher. You’ll always have the Dhamma with you. The most important thing is to actualize it in your own mindstream. I think what I respect in my teacher is recognizing, they have certain ways of thinking that I want to emulate. They have behaviors that I think are really admirable, but I can cultivate them too. They do not rest in that person. They’re teaching me how to do it for myself and then I have to do that for other people.
[00:23:30] Cheryl:
It’s so beautiful.
We will go back to the question, what are the drivers for our overachieving tendencies? For me, it comes from a place of lack and unworthiness and it’s because growing up I was surrounded by relatives who basically did really well, and had full scholarships. And in terms of the family tree as well, my father was always the odd one out. And within my family, I was the smarter one compared to my sister. But at the same time, seeing all my relatives who were better, I always had that sense of lack. And I always had to prove that my family was not that weird. So I had to overachieve in that sense.
But because it comes from this place of lack, it is a very, very painful striving cause the whole insecurity, and uncertainty about myself, the doubt is always there as I tried to head towards a place of worthiness through external achievements.
[00:24:24] Kai Xin:
I think for me subconsciously, it’s about the proving part as well. I grew up never really wanting explicit external validation from people. In fact, I do feel quite lousy since young, because I’m a bench player in basketball. I feel like, okay, I have all these medals, but I don’t really contribute to them. So it’s a part of me that says, I need something that I can call my own that I have achieved for myself to prove to myself and also to other people that I can do it. I’m independent. I don’t need to rely on anybody. This is something that is mine, not shared.
And I think it comes very subconsciously. Also, the restless mind wants to just fill my mind with things so that I don’t really have to sit still and address the inner critic and the voice. So it’s about doing, doing, doing. And it comes off as overachieving, right?
But when I started learning the Dhamma, then really looking within, Hey, what’s the driving factor? I realized, okay, I don’t need to prove to anybody. But do I also have to prove to myself? What is it that I can really call my own?
So when I had a long retreat, one and a half months in Amaravati in the UK, I was kind of searching and also asking myself about the identity. So if I were to forgo the business, do I still call myself an entrepreneur? Because that was the identity that I was tied to for two, three years. It was very, very prominent. And I feel a sense of pride and people are like, how do you achieve so much?
Then having to let go of that thought was interesting because what do I call myself then? Who am I? Then, I realized it’s really the fundamental things about my virtue that are what I’m gonna take with me when I die. The memories of the good that I’ve done. It’s really not so much about the act of doing or the act of achieving anymore. So there’s a little bit of recalibration there. Again, outwardly it might seem like the same thing, but then inside, there is a shift in how I show up to day-to-day life and the driving force, which is much healthier.
I wouldn’t say that it’s always on point. Sometimes I still lose my way and I have to have friends to call me out to say, Hey, I think you’re working too hard. What’s your priority? What’s driving you then? I take a step back, recalibrate, and it’s a constant process.
[00:26:47] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. I just remember Venerable Chodron telling us, balance is like walking. You’re just constantly shifting your weight. It’s not some kind of magic steady state and it will forever be the same. Impermanence, remember?
What you both shared reminded me of two teachings I received from Venerable. Earlier on, she told this story about how her brother is a doctor and so she also had this whole high-achieving life. She went to college early and she’s on track to be a school teacher and has a good husband and so forth.
And then she becomes a nun and her whole family’s like, what? So she met up with her brother and he was just like, what do you want to do with yourself in the next five years? Have you just lost all goals and direction in life? And she said to him, I want to be a kinder person.
I was just blown away by that answer. I just sat there with that for a long time, and there’s a part of me that’s like, that’s all? That’s all you wanna be? But Venerable Chodron, you’re like super successful in my mind. It’s like, no, she just wants to be a kinder person, and that’s what matter. So yeah, just convincing myself or coming to it on my own terms, right? Actually, what genuinely matters is our virtuous attitudes towards ourselves and other people.
[00:27:59] Kai Xin:
I’m wondering whether it’s realistic for us to have this balance of sorts, whatever we perceive of it. Cause there are so many external forces, especially from society, right? In the capitalistic and materialistic world, you must strive hard, to get an A. And then we have tiger moms and parents. Then our academic system kind of only rewards those who are at the end of the bell curve. How do we then live in this world where we have this balance and say, yeah, I’m content. It’s good enough. I don’t really have to strive so much. Is it really realistic?
[00:28:33] Venerable Damcho:
There are two things. One instruction Venerable Chodron gave me very early on drove me almost insane. Because we were talking about a high achiever, you want some specifics, right? Like 50% or whatever. She kept telling me, you have to find your own center. I was like, what kind of new age nonsense is that? What do you mean find my own center? Like where is it? Can you be more specific? So I thought about it for a long time now, what is this center?
Maybe if I retranslated her instruction, it’s how do we learn to evaluate ourselves? And that’s really hard. You are conditioned from a young age. Cheryl, you had a great example of how your family conditioning shapes so much of how you see yourself. My family is seen like this. I am this person in my family. This is how we relate. So based on all this storytelling from other people, you can decide whether you accept the story or not. As a responsible family member, I must prove that we are not weird.
Or Kai Xin, then you’ve made your own story. What is an entrepreneur and what does that mean in society? I didn’t follow the conventional route of getting a degree, but you know what? I know better than you college people and I’m succeeding. There’s that whole story based on what other people tell us, how we wanna accept it, and to know that we can undo that as we get older.
Maybe as a kid, there’s a lot less agency, right? You’re dependent on your parents for survival. You live in that house. It feels like life and death at that age. Then you get older, it’s like, I don’t have to follow everything my parents taught me. I can be an adult and look back and see what is useful, what is not, what’s true, what’s not.
I always think of those Chinese fighting serials. You are from the Pan family. Then the Lee family disgraced us, so I must now kill everybody who is Lee. That’s the purpose of my life. I spent my whole life training in sword fighting. Then I go and kill all the Lee’s. Then I write poems in Chinese, why did I do this? I don’t want my life to be like that.
[00:30:31] Cheryl:
Especially in Chinese New Year, right? Where everyone compares who does what?
[00:30:35] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. But I don’t wanna spend my life living out my parents’ expectations. Thank you. That’s your idea of happiness, but that’s not mine. So that’s one piece. And then like you said, looking at what society expects. Is it true that getting good grades is the ticket to success? Maybe you challenge that strongly. What are you telling me about conventional education? Why do I have to believe this?
But I found that maybe the last piece I wanna add is just, if I’m driven by anger, when I need to prove myself, I need to fight you, fight your expectations, fight to show you who I really am, underneath that there’s a lot of anger and it’s exhausting. As opposed to being centered, I know who I am, a genuine sense of self-confidence, these are my values, these are my motivations and that’s what drives my life. I don’t need to prove myself to anyone. You can have your story about who you think I need to be and I don’t need to buy into it. I can give it back.
[00:31:31] Kai Xin:
There’s a tipping point also, right? Sometimes tip into the aspect of I’m more superior, I know what I want, I’m gonna challenge your assumption. Society doesn’t know what it’s doing. Then again, I know it’s overachiever to have signposts and frameworks, but how do we know that we have tipped over to the other side?
[00:31:50] Venerable Damcho:
So it’s learning your own internal signposts maybe. So that’s the internal achiever, maybe. That’s just learning to evaluate yourself. Only you know your own mind. I think that’s what our meditation practice helps us with. It’s just learning how every single affliction manifests in my own experience.
In Buddhism we have all these lists, right? Attachment, anger, and you spend time with that. So how do I know when I’m being driven by anger? Whether it’s physical, taking the time to see what kinds of thoughts are running in the mind and driving my behavior. And that’s how I find my internal signpost.
And so you’re right, the external behavior can be totally the same, but I’m, as you said, learning to calibrate internally. For me, some of the signs are that I’m actually happy doing what I’m doing. I don’t get burned out. I don’t get frustrated. There’s a lot of joy. And that’s when I know, okay, we’re going on a good path.
[00:32:43] Kai Xin:
So it’s less greed, less hatred, and delusion, the reduction of the three poisons, right?
[00:32:49] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. Guess what? That actually frees up a lot of energy.
[00:32:52] Kai Xin:
It does, it does. Cheryl, do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:32:56] Cheryl:
I’m just thinking it’s very hard because at the start where you mentioned that we always see things as like my achievements, my accolades. So that sense of self is very strong. It’s also very easy to fall into the whole conceit of feeling superior, feeling inferior, and feeling neutral. It’s almost like a very strong, automatic narrative in your mind.
Can you speak a little bit more about that comparison in relation to overachieving?
[00:33:24] Venerable Damcho:
It’s such a painful state of mind. It’s so encouraged in society. I remember when I first decided to move to a monastery, one of my old friends from JC called me up and said, we need to talk. She was very concerned about my life choices and when we sat down for lunch, she was like, how can you live without competition? I mean, she was working for Lehman Brothers, and then Lehman Brothers collapsed. But she’s like, no, it’s cool, I’ll find another job for sure. She’s working 12, 16-hour days in a fancy apartment with no time to do anything except eat, sleep, and exercise and go to work. And she’s telling me that competition’s very important, that if I don’t have competition in my life, I will not improve myself.
I’m like, oh, okay. At least I could sit there and be like, I hear that you’re very concerned for me, but that’s just not what I feel is helpful in my life. But I think you’ve nailed it. Just even naming the thought, I’m better in whatever way. So you don’t actually have any realistic sense of how you are in relation to others. Yeah. That’s the definition of arrogance, thinking you’re better than someone who is actually better than you, thinking you’re better than someone who is not as good as you, thinking you’re better than someone who is equal to you.
When I looked at that, I was like, oh okay. It’s just that thought, I am better. It doesn’t matter externally what the actual situation is. And what’s helped me a lot is just looking at how that has damaged a lot of my personal relationships. It sounds like this is resonating, but it’s only something that became very clear to me when I moved to a monastery. Maybe cause in the monastery we’re all supposed to be equals on the path, just driving together and supporting each other. I can’t stand you because I think you are better or I should be better. Like, wow, this is how I relate to people my age. I don’t compete with the older nuns because they’re older, they’re seniors, and I have my own story about them. It’s like, oh, I’ve related all my friends like this. Oh, so painful. So just seeing that and really rethinking, how do I relate to people in a way that’s kind, that’s not based on measuring.
It just comes back to a sense of lack I think. You have something I don’t, I better have something you don’t.
[00:35:37] Cheryl:
I noticed that in a 10-day retreat in Thailand, my mind was having a lot of fun judging everybody. But the thing that I noticed was that it is a complete seesaw. So one day I will walk around, be like, oh, I’m sitting the straightest. I’m sitting there longest. I’m better than all of you. Then the next day when I’m feeling sleepy or when the mind is just not getting together, I’ll be like, I’m the worst here, I’m never getting enlightened. It’s really torture because when I’m down then all the critical thoughts and the anxiety, everyone must be looking at me knowing I thought that bad thought. But then when I’m feeling good, that whole narrative of, everyone should be looking at me, look at how I sit, look at how I walk. The aha moment really came in, I realized this up and down is really stupid. What am I doing? If I feel great and I hold onto it the next moment I’m gonna feel shitty. It was very helpful when I just realized that it’s so pointless to cling on either of that good or bad, because it’s gonna change anyway.
[00:36:32] Kai Xin:
I think it requires a lot of introspection to even see that. But most of us don’t get to even quiet our mind for just one minute and we don’t have the opportunity to see what exactly is insight. When I’m hearing both of you, it seemed to me that it’s not so much about not having standards because the Vinaya is a form of standard, right? We have certain guidelines to uphold in order to support us in our practice. So it’s not so much about forgoing the standards, but it’s about clinging to the standards. Then it becomes a fetter, where we cling to rites and rituals. We cling to a specific framework or how things should be done, or should not be done. Then when it causes us suffering, that’s when we have to let it go.
Similarly, it’s also not so much about not having competition at all, but perhaps it’s okay to have healthy comparisons. We rejoice in other people’s good effort, right? If friends share with me about their amazing meditation experience, I shouldn’t be like, how come I don’t have?
Cultivate sympathetic joy, Mudita, to say, wow, good for you and use them as a source of inspiration. So then that’s where healthy comparison comes into the picture rather than oh, I’m not good enough. You’re better, or I’m better. You’re not good enough. It’s very interesting because when we stop looking at things from a dualistic perspective, not clinging on to, it has to be this way or that way, then a lot of all this affliction would just fall away. Like there’s really nothing to cause us suffering anymore.
[00:37:57] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. Like you said, rejoicing is a very powerful antidote to the competitive jealous mind. I think a lot of it’s just recognizing the affliction to begin with, what we’re describing. Yeah. I definitely got to see my inner critic very clean, clear at the first retreat I sat. Then years later, you read these texts that have these definitions of mental states, right? It’s like, oh, that’s arrogance. Duh. That is the different types of arrogance. Yeah. I think I’m better, but “I think I’m the worst” is also arrogance. It’s the flip side, right? Everybody’s so good. I’m so special. I’m worse than the worst everybody can attain. It just comes back to that. Anytime you’re thinking I’m special or I’m better, that’s you, arrogance. You’re not realistic. Go away. Doesn’t help.
[00:38:41] Kai Xin:
I’m worst of the worst reminds you of, you know, how we have a culture of who sleeps later at night because they’re working. It’s a form of ego and conceit, I suppose.
[00:38:52] Venerable Damcho:
No, it’s amazing. You can get arrogant about everything. We’re the Overachiever Club. You should have the podcast for the Underachiever Club. Who’s worse and who’s more gangster, who has served longer in jail or whatever. You can get arrogant about that too. That’s very nice.
[00:39:07] Kai Xin:
All right, we’ve covered a lot. Unfortunately, everything has to come to an end, but we hope this is just the beginning of our practice in terms of introspecting. Cheryl, any salient points that you took away from our chat?
[00:39:22] Cheryl:
Yeah, definitely. I think it’s really about going back into our drivers, our motivation and our intention. Especially when we are feeling kind of out of whack. That’s a clear signpost for you to just really check what’s going on. Am I moving away from the reason why I started?
[00:39:40] Kai Xin:
For me, what stood out most is about catching myself when I need certainty. It was an aha moment when you say, all these vocabularies that we are using, the frameworks, the percentage, and just learning to sit with, what if I don’t have the answer? How does that feel like? Yeah, I think that that’s my greatest takeaway. How about Venerable?
[00:40:02] Venerable Damcho:
Yeah. I love that you said this is just the beginning of our introspective journey, cause you touched on some really important things that really are at the heart of our suffering situation. Anytime our sense of self gets overly puffed up or we are holding onto some identity or story too tightly, that’s really causing us a lot of pain. And it’s very empowering to recognize that, oh, hang on, it’s actually just thinking about things in an unrealistic or inaccurate way, and I can take time to shift the way I think. And that’s what changes everything. It’s not about having to get something outside, or even go for some multimillion-dollar workshop. It’s really just how am I thinking about this and how do I slowly train myself to shift how I’m thinking about it?
Yeah. In the definition of joyous effort, I guess skillful striving might be another way to put it. It might be Venerable Chodron’s translation of Viriya, I’m not sure. But it has four aspects. There’s aspiration, right? So that comes from you already doing that inner work and reflecting, okay, what are the benefits of this? Why do I want to accomplish this? And then that very naturally drives your behavior. You don’t have to push, you don’t have to like must wake up at X time. It’s like, oh, I’ve thought about the benefits so it’s naturally going to arise and then keeping it stable over time. There’s joy in the mind.
But most important, the last piece there’s rest. I was so shocked when I received that teaching. It’s like, ah, part of joyous effort is rest? But that’s for lazy people. No, it’s knowing, this is my capacity and I need time to recuperate. I’m an ordinary being with body and mind. I want to keep going so I rest with good motivation and then I come back when I can. And that’s it. Yeah. It’s not that you become a slob. That’s two extremes. Either you’re the rabbit or the turtle.
That’s my sense of recognizing my limitations and I have aspirations and how to keep going and a steady, sustainable way.
[00:42:03] Kai Xin:
Thanks. Very beautiful way to wrap up. And I think it also ties back to how we started that it’s really gradual how we let go and shed all these habitual tendencies of over-striving or unskillful striving. So thank you once again, Venerable, for being on the show. And to all our listeners, if you like this episode, please do share it with a friend. Hit the five-star button on the review section and till the next episode, may you stay happy and wise.
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Editor and transcriber of this episode: Tee Ke Hui, Cheryl Cheah, Koh Kai Xin
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About Our Guest
Anthea Ong served as a Nominated Member of Parliament from 2018β2020 in the 13th Parliament of Singapore. As a self-described βfull-time human being, part-time everything elseβ, she is a mental health advocate, social entrepreneur and impact investor, life and leadership coach, strategy consultant, yoga and wellness instructor and author, amongst many other roles. She is never seen without headgear to match her multiple hats.
She divides her time, energy and love across many different communities and has founded or co-founded several initiatives in her main focus areas of migrant rights, mental health, environmentalism and social impact, including SG Mental Health Matters, WorkWell Leaders, A Good Space Co-operative, Hush TeaBar and Welcome In My Backyard. She also served and serves on several boards and committees in these fields, including Unifem (now UN Women), Society for WINGS, Daughters of Tomorrow, Social Service Institute, National Volunteer & Philanthropy Centre and the Tripartite Oversight Committee for Workplace Safety & Health. Prior to devoting herself to civil society and social impact work full-time, she spent over 25 years in the corporate world as a C-suite leader. Her new mantra, as a former banker and reformed business leader, is βwhy start a business when you can start a movement, or two?β
Hi, it’s me again, Kai Xin, joined by my cohost Cheryl, and today we have a very special guest, Anthea Ong. So welcome to the Handful Of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
So today we are gonna talk about a really special topic on vulnerabiliy, and we can’t think of anyone better than Anthea Ong because she has quite a huge track record. At first, she would introduce herself as a full-time human and part-time everything else, which is very humble. I think this entire conversation is gonna help us unveil what the human behind Anthea Ong is because her long track record involves nominated member of Parliament, social entrepreneur, impact investor.
She’s the founder and co-founder of many different companies. One of the really special one, it’s called Hush TeaBar, where she provides space and opportunity for people who are deaf in order to make a living. And a very special concept around how people who are deaf can help to lead silent tea appreciation and tasting. And they are also people who have lived through mental health issues. Perfect for today’s topic on vulnerability. So, Anthea, thank you so much for coming on this show.
[00:01:18] Anthea:
Thank you, Kai Xin.
[00:01:19] Kai Xin:
And being open to share. I think both Cheryl and myself, when we look at your track record, it’s like, you’re so successful. But before we hit record, you were sharing a little bit about the challenges that you’ve been through. I think you can share more with our listeners. It’s so important for us to talk about vulnerability and to also destigmatize it, especially in the Asian context. So really looking forward to this conversation.
[00:01:44] Anthea:
Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this chat. Let’s just see how it flows.
Amazing. So just to kick things off. Vulnerability is a very big word. Everyone will have different interpretations and different definitions of it. Can you share with us what does the word vulnerability mean to you and how has it evolved?
[00:02:02] Anthea:
I think what comes up for me immediately would be that vulnerability actually means love. Love is not romantic love only. It’s love that comes from within yourself. Therefore, you’re willing to be vulnerable to the other because clearly there is a piece of yourself that you’re putting forward.
Usually, it’s when there is love that you are willing to do that. You’re also willing to do that when the other person has in some way demonstrated or earned even trust, and therefore there’s love there for you to feel safe enough. Kai Xin started this conversation talking about a topic needs to be destigmatized and it’s true.
We think of vulnerability as a lot of things, but one that we clearly associate vulnerability with is pain and suffering. I think it’s true that if you don’t have vulnerability or you don’t wanna show vulnerability, either we are avoiding or not talking about pain or not wanting to bring ourselves forward with the pain we have. But I’m pretty sure that that would mean we’ll also get a lot less love.
And so for me, vulnerability, I think it’s very intertwined with the concept of love. I wanna emphasize again and repeat myself that when I talk about love here, I’m talking about love in the broadest concept. It could be compassion, it is kindness, it is empathy. It is not just romantic love or the kind of love that we feel for family members. I think Sigmund Freud was the one who said something like, we are never so vulnerable as when we love.
I think vulnerability also calls up the emotion and the experience of relief for me. If you are a leader, then vulnerability has in some ways been so associated with weakness. And on the positive side it means that if you’re not vulnerable, you’re strong, you’re resilient, you’re stoic, you have it all together.
And the reason why I say relief is that when I went through my colossal collapse of a broken heart, a broken marriage, a broken business, a broken bank account 17 years ago now along with a lot of pain and suffering, because I was vulnerable, a lot of people come forward to show love for me.
I have to also say that I felt a deep sense of relief that now I don’t have to be seen as this person that is never going to be in a challenging situation or has all the answers. So, I think two big words, love and relief, based on my own experience.
Thanks so much for sharing, and I think it’s almost as though vulnerability is the ability to love yourself enough to let love come to you. When you were sharing on that sense of relief that you were experiencing as you allow people to come shower love and you don’t have to feel so alone. I was thinking probably the opposite of vulnerability is a sense of shame. And that’s why when you’re feeling that shame. You’re holding everything in, and then you’re burying yourself under all of that. And the moment when you’re able to let that go and just show the world. I’m imperfect! That’s it! Then, you get that sense of relief.
It’s relief. It’s liberating. It’s freeing. But most of all, it was very human. I think for the first time in the long time, because of the way my life trajectory was going up to that point of my colossal collapse, it would be seen as almost picture-perfect. It followed a very conventional trajectory of what success looked like. But of course, through that seemingly successful trajectory that was such a Midas touch at every point of my life, there were lots and lots of vulnerabilities. Just that I’d never showed them, because I never felt faith, I never felt like I should because I had a completely different notion of what being human was about. Along the way you held imposter syndrome, particularly as a woman leader in the 90’s. You also held shame when you did not do something well. But all of these are just kind of swept under the carpet and that make you then put on a veneer.
Because there is a public identity that we have to uphold and that really doesn’t allow us to be human. We go around living life feeling rather unsafe, almost as if we are constantly towing because we don’t wanna be vulnerable. We keep towing all the time. It can’t be good for anyone’s mental wellbeing or mental health, but to your point about the opposite of vulnerability, it’s likely shame.
I actually hid it from family in terms of what was going on with my marriage and all of that for a good year. And that whole year was when things just progressively went down the slippery slope. And I think it’s because of shame that I could not allow myself to be vulnerable, to share, even to my nearest and dearest.
Well, we’re kind of living in a society where blaming and shaming, the cancel culture and all of that. It’s really making it so unsafe to be vulnerable. But yet, if are not vulnerable, then how can we ever really build real connections? How can we truly be human and to truly love and receive love? Therefore, how can we be well? Mentally, emotionally and spiritually.
I think the biggest irony that everyone, or at least we humans face, is that our deepest desire is almost to be seen, to connect deeply with another person. But at the same time, we are so afraid to be vulnerable, to do the exact thing that gives us that sense of wellbeing and connection.
[00:09:10] Anthea:
You just said about this paradox, right? We are biologically, emotionally built to wanna connect. But yet in the way we live, especially when we lived intellectually. And allowing ourselves also to just go along in a sort of autopilot mode without that sense of awareness of who we are, what’s around us. We then hold back our vulnerability and our humanness and therefore that actually doesn’t let us connect. And so we are constantly in this tension all the time. And you can understand why there is suffering. There will be suffering until we actually find a way to see this paradox.
That’s so beautiful. And the word that came out is authentic. Like what Cheryl has mentioned, we don’t necessarily have to feel the pressure to be perfect all the time. We don’t have to figure out everything in life. And sometimes that’s okay. We are all work in progress.
I do have this thought about the balance. Because I think a lot of people might associate vulnerability to sharing your fears, your deepest, darkest anxiety, the thoughts, et cetera. But how much is too much and what is considered a safe context and space in order to share that?
The reason why I ask is also because I have my own fair share of going through all these difficult emotions and sometimes it’s quite tempting to indulge in them, which is not healthy. So maybe you can share some experience in terms of how you draw the line.
[00:10:56] Anthea:
It is a great question. But I would say that in terms of my own experience, being vulnerable is not without boundaries, that’s not being vulnerable. That’s just being foolish. In fact, I’ve just had an experience with a teammate who was going through a challenging time and because there was no boundaries and self-restraint – it can become self-centered because you’re downloading on someone else, all of what you’re feeling. This is too much for the other person. Especially when the other person in this case is actually going through so much as well himself. And yet because he was kind and he wanted to be a listening ear, he then lets this completely unrestrained, unfiltered download to happen. And when I heard about it and I had to step in.
I shared very gently that when we are being vulnerable, we also have to be kind and being kind is not just saying, “Hey, I wanna be self-compassionate, and therefore I’m gonna just not stop myself from sharing what I’m going through, just let myself indulge, embrace these emotions.”
But what are you doing with those emotions? Saying you’re being vulnerable, embracing these emotions, but you are actually just projecting and transferring all of that to another person. And so outwardly it might seem like, “Oh, this person is being very vulnerable and sharing all that he’s going through. But if you look at the content of the sharing there’s actually a lot of shadows, projection of his own challenges that he’s not able to deal with.” And that’s giving him a lot of suffering, that he’s then transferring to this other person and actually even making this other person feel terrible about himself, in addition to having to be there to hold the space for the first person.
So I don’t think it’s vulnerability if there’s no boundaries. I don’t think it is vulnerability if you are not continuing to be kind to others and the people around you. I also don’t think it’s very kind to yourself if your vulnerability means you’re just beating yourself up in your own self narrative. I don’t think that’s vulnerability. I think that’s why, for me, vulnerability has to come from a place of love. Otherwise, it’s actually emotional vomiting as well.
You are complaining, you’re whining, you are also self-victimizing. You are getting yourself into a victimized mode to allow yourself to not be confronting what you really need to confront with yourself too. It’s not to say that you can’t feel bad about what you’re going through, but I think it is, “Are you ready (for change)?” Because I think vulnerability is the greatest measure of change. Brene Brown said this about vulnerability as the truest gauge of courage. And so it’s the greatest measure of courage and change.
Being vulnerable is such an opportunity to come so close to yourself and I speak from my experience. If I was not broken into a million pieces 17 years ago, I don’t think I would have confronted and given myself the biggest act of kindness of actually connecting with myself. My truest self and my true nature. The million pieces I thought was me broken became a million pieces, a million seeds of love that I could now spread.
That’s powerful. It almost feels like what you’re saying is to allow your emotions to come up to face them, but it’s also not to indulge them. I mean, in Buddhism we have the 4 Noble Truths, right? So it doesn’t just stop at, okay, there’s suffering and then keep saying, life is terrible, it’s unfair, et cetera.
But what is beyond that?
And I think the first step, of course, it’s not to push away just because the feelings are unpleasant, but to allow yourself to say, Hey, this is difficult, it’s a little bit shitty, et cetera. But also having boundaries.
[00:15:43] Anthea:
You have to see what is. You’ve gotta feel what it is. And that’s suddenly a big part of the Buddhist practice as well. What is the point of awareness? If you don’t go to the next step of knowing why this exists, right?
It’s for you to then put in the effort to move yourself along the path and actually in doing so, you are able to then see what the pain was for. It wasn’t for us to indulge and self victimize. That was not the purpose of the pain.
The pain was for you to see, this is always gonna be part of what life is. I mean, we cannot learn about life and this human experience if we don’t feel life. But then when you feel what life is, what do you do about it? I think this is the part of becoming a better human. And I believe this is also a part of the Dhamma.
Definitely. It’s like a purposeful use of pain or like vulnerability with purpose. Otherwise, it can just spiral into complaining. Actually, I was thinking also about personality. So for me, I’m quite the opposite instead of sharing everything in the open to say, Hey, you know, these are some of the fears, these are what’s bothering me. Because there need to be boundaries, right? So at the back of my head, I would think that I should be kind and compassionate to my friends. They are already dealing with a lot of their own struggles, so I shouldn’t burden them with my own challenges and problems.
So I would suck it in and try to solve them myself, but that’s also not very possible because I need to lean on somebody when my capacity is limited. Do you have advice as to how people of my personality or character can be vulnerable with purpose.
[00:17:39] Anthea:
My goddaughter, she’s 27 and a beautiful, beautiful human being. And that’s exactly what she said. She was sharing a little bit of the challenges she was going through and how she was feeling. And then she said, it’s fine. Compared to so many people, I’m in a so much better position and situation and I certainly don’t wanna download and make them feel even more challenged because I have to share my issues with them.
So this is what I would say: I’ve got so many resources. I’m actually in a very privileged position. So there shouldn’t really be a need for me to either transfer, download, or share this with people around me when they are seemingly in a more challenging set of circumstances.
But, suffering for the person who’s experiencing it is absolute. It’s not relative. It’s only relative when we bring in all of this social conditioning and intellectual abstraction of it all. Then we start to have a comparison and relativity to it. To say that I don’t think I should be sharing because I don’t wanna burden them, especially if they’re also going through challenges themselves. But then we all know that everyone has a story.
Everyone is struggling. First and foremost for me, the suffering of the person experiencing it is absolute to the person and anyone who’s going through suffering deserves compassion, including from ourselves.
And secondly, I don’t think we are allowing ourselves to explore the richness and the depth of our relationships with people around us if we hold back our troubles from them because then they only know you at a certain level. They’ll never know all of you. And even if it comes from a place of kindness or your personality type where you try to keep this to yourself and try to work things through on your own, the other way to reframe it and to look at it is, Hey, do these people mean enough for me to want them to know more of who I am, the layers, the texture, the richness of who I am, which comes from my own experiences. We do think that they mean enough to us that we want to let them in so they know all of us in all our richness as a human.
The other question to ask would also be, Have I given them opportunities to show and demonstrate their love for me? Because if I’m constantly being okay. And this is what was said to me, Kai Xin, when I was going through the colossal collapse, a couple of my friends actually came out to me to say, Oh, now I can finally come forward and say, Hey, this is where I can support you. This is how I can help you.
Because you were always able to solve every problem of yours and on top of everyone else’s problems as well. So there’s just no way in to you so that I feel I have contributed, to having supported you, to being part of your life. In a most authentic, vulnerable, very beautiful, very human way.
So I think that would be the two parts to look at it actually. I hope that was helpful. But that was what happened with me.
Side trivia, I remember there was someone without meaning to, after I shared my story of what happened she said something like, “But Anthea, of course, you’re gonna always be able to come out of it. I’m sure it was painful, but I’m sure you’re gonna come out of it. I mean, look at you, you were a CEO before the collapse. Your family’s very supportive and all of that.”
I had to turn around gently said to her. I thank you for having such an amazing impression of me, (even though she didn’t truly know me, but just cause of my CV maybe), I said, but can I just share with you that I didn’t feel that way? I actually did not think I was gonna come out of it. Because the suffering at that point in time for me was excruciating and was absolute.
“But I must say it was because I was willing to allow myself to be human. That’s one part. Because of that coming out and reaching out for help. That actually allowed me to start to climb out of that deep, dark hole.”
Initially, I felt a bit affronted. What do you mean? I shouldn’t be allowed to feel terrible because of my background?
[00:22:51] Kai Xin:
Or you have to quicken the process and come out faster.
[00:22:56] Anthea:
But your pain cannot be so… because I mean, look at you. What you were before? I think we sometimes forget that. We think that just because you are CEO, you don’t have a dysfunctional family, then whatever life gets at you, you can just sort of shield it off. That’s not what the human experience is.
[00:23:17] Kai Xin:
Even spiritual practitioners. You meditate, you can do it. You feel bad, but I thought you meditate.
[00:23:25] Anthea:
Exactly! Oh, it has happened to me when I do some posting and I talk about, feeling a bit spent, very challenged by this and all of that. And people would be also wondering, well if you do this, you meditate so much, every day for the last 16, 17 years, and you still can’t feel at ease. Then the rest of us have no chance.
And I would always turn around and say that, imagine where I would be if I haven’t meditated. It’s not as if I’m meditating to get some sort of results from it. Not at all, right? I mean, that’s not what it is. Every time I meditate, it’s that moment’s experience rather than think I’m meditating so that I will, I will not (achieve something.) It’s not a means to an end, it’s an end in itself for me. But when I was asked that question, I then said, imagine what could have happened to me. The same thing with, oh, you’re vegan. How come you can get sick? Imagine if I wasn’t taking care of health. So I think, some of these are just very normal because of the social conditioning and certain intellectual ideas we have.
I just love the discussion that we were all having just now. It’s like peeling the layers of the onion. At first, we come with, okay, vulnerability is this, vulnerability is that. Now I realize vulnerability is so many things.
Just to summarize, firstly, it’s about understanding that vulnerability is inclusion as well as exclusion. You’re setting the boundaries in terms of what to share, what to not share, and who to share with as well.
And then secondly, vulnerability is not throwing the responsibility to others, but you owning it. But at the same time also allowing yourself to feel the shit that you’re feeling. And the last thing is that, vulnerability as we often forget, could also be a gift to other people, to love us and to let us lean on them as well.
Just to move the conversation forward as well, I’m just curious, how can we help people to feel comfortable in sharing their vulnerable side?
I think it’s a great question and actually this is a big part of the work that I also do with Hush Tea Bar, but also with Workwell Leaders. How do you create that space? To help people feel comfortable in sharing their vulnerable side, there has to be a safe space. And what do I mean? I mean, a lot of people talk about safe spaces. Actually, the most important descriptor of a safe space is trust.
So first it has to be earned. So that space is not automatic. It has to be earned. And it doesn’t mean that it’s only with friends you have known for a very long time. And when I say earn, I mean that if we truly wanna hold a space of trust for another to share, then I think it’s really important for us to not expect them to be vulnerable with us if we are ourselves not vulnerable.
So I feel like to create and to earn that trust, it’s so important for us to disarm ourselves first. So that another person, as you talked about Cheryl, how do we help people feel more comfortable? How do we go to all the communities, all the spaces we are in, all the relationships we have. What do we do to help people around us feel comfortable to share their vulnerability. It’s not about what we can give to them, but it’s how do you show up? Do you show up armed? Because if you show up armed emotionally, then it’s very difficult. You have not earned the trust of the other to be vulnerable.
And this is especially important for leaders, which is the work at Workwell Leaders. It is to bring together CEO’s of largest employers in Singapore together to look at how do we become more human-centered leaders. And to do that, especially when it comes to championing mental wellbeing at the workplace. You have to walk the talk first as a leader, you cannot just say, Hey, just talk, tell me what’s going on. If you have not created a space of safety and trust because you haven’t even put yourself forward yet. You haven’t given a piece of yourself in this space yet. The moment a leader can be vulnerable, to say that, Hey you know, I just went through a really difficult challenge, I needed help, and all of that, even just something like that would already change the energy and the kind of narrative within the workplace or the team.
I don’t have to feel ashamed that I’m feeling so down because my grandma just passed on, right? Because my C.E.O. Just talked about how he lost his loved one, and he’s also struggled. I think that’s really important. I mean, Gandhi said this, right? We have to be the change we want to see in the world. We can’t just go and tell people, Hey, be vulnerable, tell me. But it’s not gonna work. What are you bringing to the space? And so I think this is really important. We have to earn their trust so they can be vulnerable. That goes to the same thing, right?
Don’t just share with everyone. There’s also a need to say, is this a safe space for me to be vulnerable too? And we often say that it’s not vulnerability if you don’t have boundaries. Those boundaries very often is along the values of trust and respect. And empathy and compassion. And if you feel that, then I think you are more likely to feel comfortable with being vulnerable to your question.
But also at the same time, I feel that it can be quite challenging to be vulnerable in the corporate setting because you don’t know what this information that you are divulging might be perceived.
[00:29:53] Anthea:
And the reason I initiated Workwell Leaders back in May, 2018 is that it then has to come from the top right, unless you have a cultural shift. Unless it’s a workplace culture that from the very top is encouraging this kind of conversations to be had. And because it’s actually directly gonna be affecting business outcomes and business performance. It’s directly gonna affect the employee’s mental health.
If we don’t have this kind of conversations, we don’t have this kind of culture that we built that’s inclusive, that is creating psychological safety, at some point, entire world economy is gonna hit the ground. Even with the whole AI thing, we’re not gonna be able to survive because the culture has become so toxic that you are just constantly just dealing with all of this. I don’t wanna say what I wanna say. Therefore, there’s no creativity or innovation and no new ideas.
You feel like if you say this, you don’t get promoted. Then that’s silly because then you might leave and then the company is actually losing good talent. So all around it’s just not a very smart thing to do, that we continue to sweep these conversations under the carpet or saying that in the corporate world, this is really not the place. But it’s not easy for employees to just say, Hey, I wanna talk about this. It needs to come the top to say that this is the safe place and then it has to be demonstrated. They must walk the talk. It must go all the way down to team managers to say that, Hey, you must intentionally create spaces for this kind of conversations. Make sure you talk with your team members and ask, how are they doing? Hey, I understand you just lost a family member. How are you doing? Is there anything I can support with? So, it’s very hard from the ground up to change the culture.
When you don’t have the power, of course you’re always gonna not risk it. At the same time, I must say though, Cheryl, that it’s important to also bring the awareness into your workplace, right? And so the practice of mindfulness is helpful to let you know that, I am aware that this person I can share with, this team manager I can share with, right?
So there’s also the need to be looking at context, people and not just say, oh, as long as it’s the workplace, I’m not sharing anything, it’s also not gonna be helpful because then you are not also living intentionally. It needs to be a cultural change. It’s also why with Hush Tea Bar, when we bring the experience into workplaces, cause we are a mobile tea bar.
The idea is that then we will create that space amongst all of the colleagues, including their bosses and their managers, come together to go through a silent experience, get them to learn how to sign emotions. To acknowledge emotions have a place. And emotions include negative emotions that we get them to sign, and then they have to go back and sign with each other. And then they go through the silent experience, and then they actually share. Going back to what Kai Xin said, then there’s the authentic conversations that you have as humans and not just as colleagues. After such a profound experience. The workplace is always gonna be a bit more challenging for sure.
[00:33:40] Cheryl:
And thanks for giving us hope that as long as we still look for the people who we can feel safe, we still can embody that side of vulnerability. And I think little seeds, that we plant can hopefully create a ripple of change.
[00:33:56] Anthea:
Yes, absolutely. Also, rest in the hope that there’s a lot of effort to try to make this change happen at workplaces from the top. Workwell Leaders is not the only one, but because we are targeting the CEO’s at the very, very top. But there are also many efforts trying to look into how HR policies can change how team management practices should embrace diversity and inclusion and stuff like that. And you are right Cheryl, it’s just different seeds that we plant with what we have, where we can. Never lose hope.
Perhaps, beyond just getting the leaders to set the tone, employees also have control in terms of asking their bosses how they are and making the effort to see their bosses beyond just performance and how they show up at work. One specific incident, which touched me very much. One of my colleague, usually we do quarterly reviews and I would ask what else can I do to support you in both your personal life as well as at work?
And then we went off the conversation. And then, the colleague asked. Boss, you always ask how you can support us, but how can we support you? I mean, even as I’m saying this right now. I feel so teary-eyed. Finally, people actually do see the human side and they care.
It’s kind of linking back to how we started a conversation about being vulnerable, sharing openly with love. I think it goes both ways. So if the employee can also disarm themselves a little bit, but of course with boundaries and lean in with curiosity, then the connection can happen.
[00:35:41] Anthea:
That is so beautifully said. I’ve had those experiences too. Many a time. And I join you in being teary-eyed when this happens. But it also speaks volume of how often we also think of our leaders and our bosses as superhumans. But actually they’re just humans, like all of us. And especially through COVID everyone goes to them, right? The workers go to them, they ask them how to deal with all of these challenges. The suppliers, the clients. And so in fact, studies are showing that there’s a significant level of burnout at the leaders’ level.
If we are always anchoring ourselves in love and compassion, then it’s never about how change should be made for me, but I should be part of that change as well. And if all of us think about it that way, then there’s no reason we shouldn’t show up with compassion for people who traditionally, we think they will always be fine. I mean, like the story I said about earlier, right? I think all we’re saying is, bring our humanness to every relationship, every space that we are in, because at work it’s actually a collective of humans coming together, right?
So that shouldn’t be any different to any community that we’re in. And if we can change the way we see workplaces where most of us spend most of our waking hours, it’s gonna have such a direct impact on who we are in our family and community lives as well.
[00:37:27] Cheryl:
That’s so beautiful. Thanks for sharing, Kai Xin. And thanks Anthea, for chiming in. Really helped me change my perspective as well. Because I guess I always feel intimidated if they’re the Senior Director or Senior VP or whoever, and I forget to see their humanness behind their titles, and their roles and all that.
Cool. So we’ve chatted a lot, I wish we could go on, but if we were to wrap up this episode and chat, I have a question for you because you have two books actually. One is “50 Shades of Love”, and another one.
[00:38:06] Anthea:
It’s “The Nominated Member of Parliament Scheme: Are Unelected Voices Still Necessary in Parliament?”
[00:38:15] Kai Xin:
And if you were to write a new book, hypothetically, on vulnerability, what would the title of the book be?
[00:38:24] Anthea:
It’s a good question. I sort of feel though Kai Xin and Cheryl, that “50 Shades of Love”, it’s so much about my vulnerability because I shared so much of when I was the most challenged in so many of the shades, the chapters. This is a great question. So if you’ll indulge me, I think one would be “Lost and Found”.
I was certainly in some way lost in the social conditioning of that trajectory I talked about. But also I was suddenly very lost when I was dealing with the collapse in the first instance. I felt lost because, who am I now if I’m not a C.E.O., I’m not a wife. And interestingly, my vulnerabilities across the decades of my life, especially the last colossal collapse has allowed me to find my “why”. Who I’m not and who I am or what I am? It’s not about the public identity anymore, but just allowing me to go back to, that I am a human being above everything else. So that’s one that just came up. I have always been very taken. I don’t know whether you both know about the Japanese art of Kintsugi.
[00:39:49] Cheryl:
Kintsugi.
[00:39:51] Anthea:
And I actually have a cup behind, which is a Hush tea cup that was broken, and then it’s patched obviously with the golden thread, and the golden paint. That image has always been one that I associated a lot of what I went through. And now I feel like my heart is definitely scarred. But now it’s enriched because of the scarring, which is vulnerability with so much more light and awareness and love.
I don’t know what I would call it. Maybe “My Kintsugi Journey” or something, “My Kintsugi Life”. The last one I’d like to bring up, because I know your project, it’s called a Handful of Leaves. What just came up to me is, we talked about vulnerability as being so important in that connection that we long for as human beings. So maybe it could be saying that I’m giving a hand of connection, I talked about my vulnerabilities.
And that I think can only come in the truest way and the most authentic way if we are actually able to sort of feel safe, included, belong enough to want to share our vulnerabilities and then therefore get the connections that come with it.
[00:41:15] Kai Xin:
Beautiful way to wrap up the episode. So we have three book titles in the making. Yes. And thank you so much Anthea for this chat. I’ve learnt so much from you. So I think at the end of the day, it’s really about being true to oneself, having love, and it goes both ways. And to all our listeners, hopefully you can take this all in and learn to be a little bit stronger by showing your vulnerability. Until we meet again the next episode, may you stay happy and wise. Thank you so much, Anthea.
Hush TeaBar – HUSH started in 2014 as a volunteer-run groundup initiative before becoming a social enterprise in 2016 where we have mostly given employment and empowerment opportunities to Deaf persons and Hearing persons in recovery from mental health conditions.
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Editor and transcriber of this episode: Tee Ke Hui, Cheryl Cheah, Koh Kai Xin
Amy 0:00 Throughout my career journey and this could be very ingrained in our Asian culture, right? You only say yes, and you say yes to everything. But I realised that it’s not sustainable.
Cheryl 0:15 Did you know that one in three Singaporeans work at least 10 hours a day? I’m definitely guilty of that. You spend most of your waking hours working, I invite you to reflect on this question. Who are you beyond the work that you do? Hello, I’m Cheryl, your co-hosts for today, and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves podcast. Handful. Of Leaves is a boutique Buddhist Publication, featuring stories by Asian writers on everyday topics, such as relationships, mental health, work, finance, and the long list goes on. Life is already hard as it is, so we hope you can take away some insights that will help you navigate the complexities of life and the happier and more fulfilling lives. Today we have a very special guest on board sister Amy and my co host Kai Xin. In the episode today, we discuss how can we humanise corporate life, when to create and when to stay, as well as exploring the three P plus P framework to achieve corporate success. There are many, many more gems in this episode. So stay tuned to the end, where sister Amy will share how a simple accounting concept can transform your happiness and joy.
So maybe we can introduce our guests for today, Sister Amy, with quite a cheeky starter question, which is could you introduce yourself? Who are you beyond your titles, your achievements and your responsibility?
Amy 1:59 I often introduce myself as a joy lamp. I always believe about having the joy from our hearts and sharing it with others. There has always been a motto that I’ve been carrying around, and also empowers me in doing what I do.
Cheryl 2:18 Oh, I really like that. So it is like Amy the Joy Lamp.
Amy 2:21 Yes, not the Aladdin lamp just in case you all come to me for three wishes.
Kai Xin 2:25 Why do you call yourself a joy lamp ? How did this term come about?
Amy2:29 It actually came about in one of my coaching sessions. I had a coach at work. And she asked a very similar question to what Cheryl just did. And at that point, the word joy just naturally came upon me. But I realized that just joy for myself is not, you know, meaningful enough. That’s where I coupled it with joy lamp so that there’s something that I can bring around, not just to shine upon myself, but also to others
Cheryl 3:01 What do you mean like joy is not meaningful on its own? .
So for myself, I think if I’m just happy on my own, but I can’t be of value to people around me, I think that may not be as meaningful. So hence, I wanted to share it.
Kai Xin 3:20 I see you doing a lot of volunteer work, and you’re probably an over achiever high-flyer in your organization as well. and you also do mentoring. How do you achieve so much? Was it because you want to spread joy? Or is there something else?
Amy 3:37 You know, when you mentioned the word overachiever, that was something that I think since I was young, even before coming to the corporate world, or being introduced to voluntary work, I tend to have this expectation on myself that I always need to do my very best.
Now that I think about this, it is a bit silly. So like back in school, I felt like I had the responsibility that whenever I go for examinations that I have to score first. Otherwise, I’m a disappointment. I have no idea where that came from. Because to be fair, my parents didn’t impose that on me. That seems to be something that I self-imposed upon myself.
And as I grew up, I start to realize that that expectation is not very sustainable. And that’s where I start to find ways to like ‘Oh, you know, what, other ways can I do my very best besides just trying to accumulate medals and put on badges and things like that.’ That’s when I start to get involved in volunteering. And volunteering was also my balancing factor that actually is balancing me out from what I do at work, or what do I need to achieve in the corporate side of things.That is the typical KPI of how much revenue you’re going to grow this year, how much costs you will cut this year etc., which are very binary and objective.
So, that sometimes you may seem as you know, overachieving because every year is that you know, the extra 10%, or that extra 15%. A lot of people have this misconception, or maybe some people will use it as their mantra to say that, ‘oh, for me to be successful in the corporate world, I need to always be at the first place, you know, I need to be the one that is driving and leading.’ It’s a lot about me, myself and I.
While I can accumulate the joy myself, it is not something that I define as meaningful if I cannot share it out. The volunteering part actually allows me to like, ‘okay, since I managed to be meaningful in this space, can I actually bring other people along in the same spectrum? Or try to, you know, mentor others so that they don’t fall into the same pothole’. That’s my version of getting back. And by that, it actually balanced me out from being the overachiever that is only focusing and concentrating on myself. So that balancing made me feel a lot more human to make sure that while we keep to some of the corporate achievements, that we don’t lose connection with people to not lose connection that ultimately we are all human, and also how we can help each other along the way. And I think that’s the part that sharing with others actually taper down my over achiever mindset.
Kai Xin 6:36 I’m curious, because you mentioned about climbing the corporate ladder in your LinkedIn profile. I think Cheryl was the one who pointed out that less than two years, you will get a promotion. So was that deliberate? And then who did you bring along? And how do you balance the tangibles and the intangibles — KPI and the human side of things?
Amy 6:57 I have to say, I’ve been very fortunate to have managers who have believed in me. And I wouldn’t necessarily say that, you know, that was deliberate. Like, I didn’t say that, okay, I need to get to this level by within a year, within two years. A lot of it, were having someone else who believe in me, giving me the opportunity and the platform. And there was a mentor that shared this with me, which I’ve used this now to guide other mentees along, especially when everyone has their career aspirations to get to the next level.
Amy 7:37 He shared with me that they are three Ps that, help you or guide you on your next corporate promotion.
One is the platform, so your role needs to be operating at the next level. For example, let’s say you want to get from an analyst to a associate, then the role that you’re performing needs to be a associate platform to allow you to showcase your potential.
Secondly, is obviously performance. This is where, you know, you really need to do what is required as an associate to demonstrate that you are worthy of that title.
And last, but not least, actually is my favourite, which is P for People. It’s about how people actually know you, what people know you for? And how do you then get the power of your network to support you to the next journey.
For once, he was one of the mentors that helped me demystify the whole corporate promotion piece and made it quite logical that you know, each of the component is something that, you know, we can influence and work towards. To me, that was very enriching. And there has always been now the framework that I’ve used, even for my mentees who want to get to the next level. And I’ve been quite happy to see that with that framework in mind, a number of my mentees have actually got to the next level as well. So that’s how I bring them along the journey.
Cheryl 9:01 Yeah, and I think like, we should never underestimate the power of like the relationship currency, which is like, who you know, and what do people think about or how do people perceive you in terms of your competence, your reputation because I think to a certain extent, your performance can only return you a limited amount of reward, but then it’s the people that, you know, that helps you to get to the next level as well.
Kai Xin 9:30 Totally. There’s also a part where you mentioned it’s not deliberate, but having that three Ps in mind does sound quite deliberate to me. I mean you have to make an active effort right to be in the right place, and also connect with the right people and know what are the performance indicators to work on so that you’re offering value and creating value in the organisation. Then I think sometimes people might also feel I’m not so sure as a Buddhist whether I should chiong and strive so hard, then you kind of just wait for things to happen. It is like, okay, by luck and by chance, which I, personally, don’t believe that’s true. And then some people might also struggle with finding that sweet spot, right?
Have you ever struggled knowing how much you should strive in an organisation and how much to kind of say, okay, I think it’s enough?
Amy 10:18 Definitely. So I think at different juncture of my career, I would say, for example, at a much junior level, then it may seem a little bit more straightforward. But as you get to a much more senior position, then, there’s probably more complexity in the three Ps. But what I really like was, when I was at a mid career, one of my promotion gift was this book is called ‘What got you here will not get you there‘.
Amy 10:53 Again, while I emphasise on the framework, as a guideline, at every part of the career journey, the framework also will change slightly differently from a dynamic perspective. So that actually gives me a reminder to also manage my own expectations to say, ‘Oh, just because you use three Ps then cannot be every time you go to the next level is two years. Then, that’s a little bit, you know, deluded in that way.
So for me, I guess there is no right or wrong answer. And there are people who want to chiong. And in fact, there are people that have gotten promoted even faster than me. So again, it’s all relative. And also, there are some people who said that, ‘Hey, you know, what I don’t feel I want to go to next level because I see the amount of stress that comes with it’. And I’m actually very happy where I am. And I think as a society, we should also be not judgmental to those that say, ‘Hey, actually, I’m happy where I am, I don’t have to, you know, get to a senior level, I love what I do and then I go home, and I feel happy.’ And for those that, who wants to strive for the ambition, again, we also shouldn’t judge them to say that,’ Wow, why they always so competitive must always win, etc’. So I guess everyone is different and depends on what you want to achieve. You put in the effort.
And reason why I said I wasn’t deliberate was because sometimes it also depends on the condition. For example, there was one year I remember, I was part of a talent programme. And everyone had this mindset that oh, yeah, after this talent programme, right, most of the people will be promoted. And the reality is, that wasn’t the case. There are certain situation whereby even you had put in that effort, the conditions were just not right at that point in time. And on hindsight, I fully appreciated it. Because I was thinking if actually, I was promoted at that point in time, which is earlier, I wouldn’t actually be ready to take up bigger responsibilities. Sometimes go into the next level too quickly, may not necessarily be a good thing as well.
It’s a lot about learning. When is the right time, like you said, the sweet spot. But most of the time, you can’t get the answer before it’s always on hindsight like, ‘Oh, actually, it’s okay I think now I’m more ready’.
Cheryl 13:15 And I guess when you’re experiencing it you’re probably feeling very frustrated, like demotivated that you put in so much effort, but then you can’t, you didn’t get what you want. But then you see the values and the lessons of it when you look back many years later. I’m wondering, Kai Xin what are your thoughts with that question? Like know how much you should strive? Like the question that you asked Amy.
Kai Xin 13:36 I was actually thinking of adding one more P to that framework. Purpose because I think we can meet the right people have the right platform and to all these performance indicators, right. But for what, so I want to share a funny story. It’s about a cab driver, he told me the same exact thing as what’s the same you just mentioned, it was, I think, 1am or something like that. And I was on my way back home from the office. And then he was like, ‘ Oh, you work very high rank ah? ‘ Then he started telling me life lessons. You know, typically people who climb up the corporate ladder, they get paid a lot. It comes at a price. Because that’s where, you know, the stress comes in, and is it really worth it? And it got me thinking as well. So don’t strive for the sake of striving or because everyone else around is doing the same. Knowing when to let go also, and I think to take care of our own mental well-being that’s very important.
Typically, I will only realise at a tipping point. Like I’m burning out. Then I was like ‘Okay, I think I’m working too hard. I need to pull the brake’. Again, always on hindsight. I don’t have the right answer. But I think it’s true all this different experience that I’ve learned how to recalibrate.
Cheryl 14:49 I do have one more P to add also. It will be pivot, which is basically having the courage to pivot your life direction. So for example because I think for me, I’m just starting out in my career and a lot of it I benchmark based on what other people are doing. Are they earning more? Okay, I follow, you know, like they work OT I also follow. So a lot of times I get lost in the doing and striving, I don’t really know, what’s my purpose, and I don’t know where I’m heading to five years later. Like, I hope I won’t be in a place where I completely hate my life, I hate my job. I think having that courage to pause and to really ask yourself, what is important. What are your values, and then, you know, taking small steps to pivot towards the direction that you want, and then charge towards the better place, so to speak.
Kai Xin 15:39 Yeah, I think it’s so important to know when to quit. Because, you know, in society, sometimes the word quitting, it’s so tough. Yeah, it’s taboo. It’s like you’re giving up. But sometimes if you’re giving on the right thing, it’s gonna be so much better for your life.
Amy 15:55 I think that’s why Cheryl chosed a P instead of a Q. It is a better word than Quit but quite close. It has a more positive connotation to it.
What has worked out quite well for me, and it’s within my advice for those who have just started their career, is to really explore different roles. I say, explore different roles, at the end, say join different companies. Explore different roles, and jump different companies are very different. And why do I say that? Because at the beginning of my career, I had the opportunity to obviously be part of the Graduate Programme that allowed me to be mobile. I changed department every eight months. And I really enjoyed it. Because I get to see something new, I get to learn something new. And it didn’t become dull or boring, which could also sometimes be a reason of why we lost motivation at work. I continued on that trajectory. So which is why if you look at my career history is a little bit Rojak la. So I started out in finance. And then I did a little bit of strategy and change. And then I found love when I had the role to face a client, which is something I never imagined myself doing because I graduated with accountancy. So I thought, ‘Okay, for the rest of my life in dealing with numbers.’ And then I’m dealing with like an external client, and it kind of just hit a very sweet spot for me in terms of my personality. And I start to love, what I did in that space. I think it’s important as we find motivation in work, and especially for those that you know, have been in the same company, a lot of us would think that, I think it’s time to quit, maybe I should join another company.
I maybe the wrong person to give advice, because I’ve been at the same company for more than a decade. But what I did realise for people that keep jumping is they actually see the same problem in every organisation that they go. So, I am a big advocate of internal mobility just because you kind of have a sweet spot, you still have your network in the company to support you, but at the same time, explore different roles within the organisation. Then, find and hopefully find one that you know, really, really resonate with you and grow from there. And you will know it when you find it.
Cheryl 18:18 How do you know when you find it? Can you describe that feeling?
I think this is a little bit of an art than a science. Okay, why do I say that? So when I graduated, we accountancy I remember the advice that was given to me ‘Amy so after graduating, you should just go and work in an audit firm.’ And after three years, you’ll be very successful. That was what I thought because that time I just graduated, so I was like, ‘oh okay.’
Amy 18:43 Then, I start to realise what that actually mean? Because it’s like, they just left me hanging at the ‘spend three years and then you know, question mark, question mark.’ That is the more science approach about okay, a lot of people than that, and then it is a very binary trajectory. And you follow, like Cheryl, you say, okay, people do this I follow.
Then I start to realise it’s more of an art. And when I say it’s an art, it is something that only you will know. Because when I did the client role, which is completely different from any experience that I had. I didn’t learn about clients, I didn’t actually start working in the client space, but having the opportunity to go out and represent the bank and speak to a senior person in the client and have that communication. At the same time. I also learned from other senior leaders in the industry. I knew it that I love it is because it gives me an outside in view to the company. And I think that is super refreshing. And being someone who always enjoy something new and enjoy learning, I thought that was a great platform for me to you know, expand and it’s like infinite possibilities. So if you find something that you think ‘Wah, there’s so much I can do here, and I get very excited and I think there’s opportunity to grow.’ I think that’s where you found your sweet spot.
Cheryl 20:05 But could that be misleading? Because like, in every new job that you do, you can always feel that feeling right of like, you know, ‘Oh, there’s so much I can do in this space, and there’s so much opportunity to learn and grow.’ I feel like there’s something missing there that we still need to have to know whether that is really the right job?
Amy: Yeah, so what you’re sharing is something new will always sound exciting at the beginning. This one is a little bit like the quality of happiness. Whenever something is new, right, the happiness will be there, but then he will be more momentarily or more short term. But for me, when I know that, it’s something long term that I want to do is because I feel that I really can do it for the next three to five years, not in the same exact form. But in a way that I really think that, you know, being in the client space is where I can, you know, do transformation I can do, I don’t know, relationship management, I can grow a team of client service, etc.
So if you notice, when I found that sweet spot, that’s where the rest of my other roles are kind of link to it, just because I found something that was meaningful for me to grow, and I personally resonate with. It’s more about when you find that new job, and you might enjoy it for a while, the question to ask yourself is, do you think you can do it for the next three to five years? If your answer is I’m not sure, then I think maybe continue to reflect on that. If you say no, then straight away, it’s like, okay, maybe this is not my cup of tea. But if you say yes, and you start to explore around it, there are actually a lot of opportunities that, you know, there may be something that you can do, and you’ll find yourself enjoy doing, and hopefully not get bored over time.
Cheryl: So in summary, it’s like finding a job that warms the cockles of your heart for the next three to five years of your life.
Amy: I may need to pay Jamus lim that if I use that.
Kai Xin 22:08 I’m wondering also whether it’s important to look at the worst-case scenario? Because I think sometimes we can look at a new role with very glittery eyes and say, Oh, this is something new, so exciting, but we don’t see the hardship that one has to go through. So if I can find myself saying, wow, it’s exciting to actually go through challenges, to solve problems or to not have an answer or to move out of my comfort level, then that might be my indication, which three to five years, I think I can stick in the same room regardless of highs and lows.
I think it goes back to really the courage again, not to move away and to because when you just change your job, you know, the last thing that you want to hear is that, okay, this is not the right job because then you have to go through the entire process of like, searching for something else, again, going through the interviews, which are not fun. I guess, listen to your intuition. If it doesn’t feel right, then you should do something about it.
Amy 23:10 Or sometimes, it can also be even though just because you found something they warm the cockles of your heart doesn’t mean that every day is a smooth sailing day. Like what Kai Xin say, sometimes there will be, you know, challenges and difficult conversations.
I think a lot of times, it’s also about even if you’re in a role that like you said, let’s say your day fills with ‘No la this is not my cup of tea already la’ My advice would be really also stick through it for some time because there’s always something to learn in that. And, and I see this with leaders as well sometimes, you know, you can’t choose your bosses, for example. Then, that one you can’t just jump , I mean you can but what if you meet another similar person in another organisation.
So the mantra that I usually use is if I meet a really good inspiring leader, I learn from the person. If I meet a leader that maybe doesn’t resonate much with me and maybe then I can also learn what not to do when I’m a leader. And I think that applies as well. And we are in a role that maybe we are not on the high every day. But there’s always something to learn. And I realise sometimes when you’re in a very challenging role that is not resonating with you. It is also a very good practice about how you deal with your own aversion. Yeah, because otherwise we might then be jumping from one to another. It is a bit like Samsara, just in a work context.
But Cheryl you’re right. I mean, if then come to a point in time that you think that you know, you have invested enough time for me to make that decision and have the courage to pivot. I think that’s also the right thing to do, but just remember not to like react quite immediately because in any perfect sexy job, they’re always days like, ‘Oh my gosh, like, get me out of here kind.’
Cheryl 25:02 But I realise I think it’s important to caveat though that, okay, that is good. But it’s very important to take care of your mental health. If the environment is toxic that people are just backbiting, then ‘Straight out please.’
Yeah, and for me, right, sometimes when I speak to people, sometimes the role can be tough and not what you like. But if the people there are people that you can work with then it is still not that bad. The worst combination is, you know, that role is really not what you’d like, and then the environment is completely toxic. That could be completely unbearable. And then, obviously, that’s where the role and the environment are good, then that’s where you blossom.
Amy 25:44 I completely agree. For me, one of the reasons why I stayed where I am, for more than a decade, which a lot of my peers would kind of say, ‘Wah you are very silly, why are you so loyal to the same firm, and then you’re kind of young, you should be looking around and hop around.’ But I’ve been super grateful to have meet pretty amazing people. And I think the people piece that there’s like a trump card for me, that says a lot about the working environment and where to go and where to stay.
Kai Xin 26:20 Yeah, I think it’s really about finding that balance, right? Because I also do know that there are some practitioners, they will just take every moment as a learning moment. Then, they take it upon themselves. Even though the work culture is super toxic, but because they’re so compassionate, they say, ‘Oh, I can’t leave the company because everyone is struggling, and there’s something for me to learn.’ And they don’t think for themselves, which, I think, is quite unhealthy to the point like Cheryl said, right, if their mental health is being jeopardised, I think it’s really a sign that you should just pull the plug and go somewhere else. I think it’s important to have options, but at the same time to not point finger to say, oh, it’s somebody else’s fault, or it’s my fault. But to look at both sides.
Amy 27:01 When is the time to pull the plug. So just right before this podcast, I was reading this CNA article about mental well-being and burnout at work. And as much as we say, mental health is pretty invisible. But I strongly believe that when it comes to burn out and stress, actually, it comes out even on your physical side. So for example, simple things, like if you couldn’t sleep well, you know, every night, you dream about your colleagues or you know, you preplan while you are in your shower about your own business meetings gonna be difficult, etc. Or even things like you’re not eating well. It could be you suddenly just want to snack a lot, or you’re suddenly just like, I just don’t feel like eating, I’ve got no appetite because I’m very busy like this next PowerPoint is the most important thing to me, I think those are signs that we really need to have a look-out for.
Amy 28:05 And what’s most important is sometimes you don’t have to find a solution yourself. When you’re at those pivotal moments, I would say always speak to a friend because a friend or another party will lend you the perspective about and these are people that you know, you trust the most know you well, to know that, hey, I actually think that, you know, you’ve been looking pretty stressed. And you really need to take a chill pill for a while, and they really stem from the care for you. I think having someone that just keep a lookout for you at that point in time, and then maybe just discuss.
For example for me discussing with my hubby to know that ‘Hey, am I just being complainy?’ Because it’s my natural habit whenever I have this kind scenario, I would end up lamenting, or am I really at red zone whereby it’s really starting to impact me and my physical well-being signs are showing up. So, I think that’s where it will give us an indicator of when to pivot, not quit because I think pivoting with the right intention, actually will get us further in the journey, rather than you know, stopping the journey.
Kai Xin 29:20 Do you have any advice? Or like how do you personally take care of your own mental well being so that you don’t get to the stage of burnout?
Amy 29:28 I think I would answer this in two ways. One is the conventional burnout if you just think you have too much work, so you’re overwhelmed. That’s more quantity thing. The other is your burnout because you have constant self-doubt, or thinking that you’re not good enough. And you know, you’re the worst human being on Earth. It’s more of a quality thing.
So for me in terms of the quantity of work, I think this is where the whole planning and open discussion with your manager to make sure that at any point that you think it’s too much to just ask a very simple question to say that which one is the most important? Because then that gives you the permission to say that, ‘Oh, instead of doing 10 things, actually, it’s only three’ Then you already cut it by like one third. One of the thing that obviously, I’ve learned throughout my career journey, and this could be very ingrained in our Asian culture, right? You only say yes, and you say yes to everything. But I realised that it’s not sustainable. And Kai Xin and I talked about sustainability over the last two to three years. And that’s something that I’ve used as a reminder to anchor myself that, you know, I don’t have to be Wonder Woman or Superwoman to do everything. But when it comes to quantity to really plan and have those could be difficult conversations, to ask what is the most important, so that I think is the easier bit to do.
The harder bit to do is always with ourself. As y’all would have known, like, you know, the biggest critic we all have is not other people, is ourselves. We are our biggest critic, which is quite an irony. But that happens a lot. And I primarily found this more evident in female as well. And there are research that shows that when there is a job application, when a man see that they are 60%, fitting to the qualifications, they will apply. But for women, they need to see like the fitting 100%.
We are sometimes shortchanging ourselves and the doubt and perception may actually cause a lot more mental stress and burnout. What has been very useful for me, and I’m a huge proponent of that I have constant self doubt as well. And one of the teachers that I thought was really, really good at this is actually Venerable Thubten Chodron. In Thubten Chodron’s talk, she always said out loud how our mind thinks, how when you know, when we’re jealous, how does the mind speak, or when we are competitive, how does that speak. So, her teachings resonate with me since many years ago, mainly because of my nature that I’ve shared. And I was like ‘Yeah that’s actually how my mind thinks! But no one has spoken it out loud the first time like that.
And whenever I have those moments of frictions, thank goodness, there’s Google. I will typically Google Venerable Thubten Chodron for that particular topic, and usually, she just have a hit for me.
So, that’s how I tried to make sure that I have a reminder to make sure that both from a quantity of work perspective and a quality of what I think of myself, doesn’t cause unnecessary burnout until that I can’t actually pull it. And I am actually reading this book by Venerable Chodron right now. It’s called Awaken Every Day. And because sometimes I’m so busy, I can’t typically finish a Dharma book, if it’s a big read. But this is just a verse or a page every day. I read this every day. And sometimes miraculously, the teachings is what I need at that point in time. And that actually helps me a lot in you know, be it myself self-doubt or self-critic or when I’m trying to strive to be perfect to remind myself that I’m still human beings, still learning and growing. So that brings me back to earth, not in Mars anymore.
Cheryl 33:42 I thought it was very interesting that you mentioned the psychological aspect of burnout. Because I think every time we look at burnout, we’re always just thinking about, okay, peak period is common that everyone is burnt out, you know, after that have a break, go to Bali, etc. So many people struggle with I talked to colleagues and managers and mentors. They also mentioned the same thing, that feeling of imposter syndrome is pervasive, it doesn’t matter if you’re like an associate or senior manager, everyone feels that also the extent. It took me a good two years to be able to say like, ‘Okay, I kinda know what I’m doing here. I kind of feel like I deserve to get this place.’ A lot of my two years of like, comparing my colleagues who are more experienced, coming from a lot of different companies, and I’ll always be like, ‘Oh, my God, I, I just can’t do it.’ And it’s always taking my worst comparing with people’s best. And obviously, it doesn’t make sense. But I don’t know, I feel like it’s very fun to do that to myself. I still don’t know why.
Some steps that I take them to kind of elevate that is always talk to people about their experiences, because I think when you are being able to be vulnerable, you realise that. Oh, the person that you think got this stuff together actually doesn’t actually feel anxious to actually feels like, you know, they don’t know what they’re doing. So when you have that kind of open conversation with people, you realise that, ‘Hey, we’re all just human beings that are trying our best doing our best and want to feel recognised and validated. ‘
And I think that, that changes the perspective also from one of like, beating yourself up to like, ‘Hey, how can we solve the solution? Is there something that I could learn from someone else? Can I upgrade my skill in a circumstance?’
Especially during 2020, it was super important to have a proper stop, like, stop working, carving out the space mentally and physically to really put a stop there. And I think exercise has been quite helpful for me because we just take my mind off things.
Kai Xin 35:48 Yeah. For a more practical level, I think it’s about blocking out time to not do anything because I don’t trust myself if I don’t do that because I will just get in the flow and I’ll work until 1am 2am. But if I carve out time and routine, then that’s really like non negotiable. Google Calendar, it’s my life saviour, I use it to organise my entire life. And based on last year, during COVID, so Vasa period that is the rains retreat that is a three month period, I took on this challenge, where I would have to dial in to the evening chanting session, every single day, except for for weekends because I want to spend time with my family. And surprisingly, even though that was like my peak period, but just doing nothing else, but dedicating my time for chanting for meditation for a good two and a half hours every single day, I actually feel revitalised.
And then I kind of wondered, in the past, I always think that I don’t even have time to sit for half an hour. Why do I have time to even block out two and a half hours and things just seem to get done? You know, it’s not like I’ve worked piling up, and I seem to be doing things a lot more efficiently. I think on hindsight, it’s really not so much about the quantity of time, but the energy that goes into it.
Maybe for listeners listening to this, just try, you know, one hour routine, don’t do anything, just rest, and see what happens. And it will be good to do it with a community so there’s accountability as well.
I’m wondering whether we can go back to the whole idea of working. What is your thought on this whole hustle culture?
Cheryl 37:33 For me, I hustle on things that I’m interested in. So if I’m interested, I will really put effort into it. Because I feel like there is a clear outcome such as mastering a skill or mastering something that I’m interested in, and then the progress become very enjoyable, because it’s progress that I get to define myself.
But let’s say it’s things that are not that interesting, then I think I struggle very much to do it. Then you know, I can be described as like, lazy or like, whatever because I just feel like my mental state is not aligned to it. And I don’t want to let you take a lot of will power for me to force myself to do it. So I think hustling works, if you are able to convince yourself that it’s something that’s worth doing.
A lot of this conversation, it seems to put like growth, career success as the base assumption, right? That is what you want to hustle for, and you should be hustling for. But I think we should also not discount that there are different things that people could hustle so far in their own way.
I was listening to the recording that you had with Brother Tan also. And I really love the example that he shared with Siddhartha was a super hustler before he became the Buddha. He had to go through all the most intense meditation teachings and try all the different ways. So that is considered hustling. Don’t think that there’s only one bar of what hustling should look like and do the one that I think you enjoy. At the same time. I think, as with everything, like balance is key.
I don’t really like the word hustle, because it does have the connotation of over exerting of effort. I feel that you need to be smart about things in the sense that put in the right efforts that give you your result, but not do everything the most difficult way to get the same results.
Kai Xin 39:33 Have to be strategic. Yeah, because I know sometimes people like, ‘Oh, the more number of hours OT, I can win a medal or badge.’ Sometimes we compete with people based on who sleeps the latest and who stays in office the longest. I’m not so sure that you guys have those colleagues or times before. I was guilty of that, ‘Wah I work until so late!’. And I feel proud of myself, you know. And I think it’s very blind like you mentioned. It wasn’t strategic at all.
Amy 39:40 I guess there’s no right or wrong, whether we hustle, should we not, a lot of it also driven by the character and personality. And most recently, I’ve also noticed that besides driven by character and personality, it was driven by social media. Social media in the sense that ‘Wah! Everyone is hustling, so I better hustle. If not, I’ll be the one who left out. And I think he was also aggravated with the whole FIRE mentality, which is Financial Independence Retire Early. And in I’ve seen a number of the younger generation now, getting very anxious and worried about, ‘Hey, I feel very FOMO no fear of missing out.’ I think we just need to be mindful in terms of why we hustle. I think a lot of people just follow without understanding why are they even doing in the first place.
I think I have two very interesting nuggets to share. So one was instead of FOMO, the recent term I learned was JOMO which is Joy Of Missing Out. Sometimes, if you are the one that actually don’t have to hustle so much, and then you get to really relax and do what you enjoy doing. That in itself brings you a lot of peace and contentment. Again, like what you said Kai Xin earlier, it’s a matter of choice, which choice do you actually enforced.
Secondly, I’ve also read an article this week, and there is actually another way to achieve FIRE. Alot of us think hustle is the only way to achieve FIRE. Actually, frugality also allows you to achieve FIRE, there’s always different ways to achieve the mathematic equation. It is a matter of which part do you exercise more, and whichever choice anyone chooses to, and we are all adults, I just feel that, you know, we shouldn’t judge, which is the right one or which is the wrong one. Everyone has their own choice.
But most importantly, coming back to mental health, no matter what choice you exercise, the most important thing at the end of the day, is you do not compare. And I think Cheryl said it before, comparison is the thief of joy. I think sometimes that kind of makes you even more lost, as you follow and you forgot, like, why am I doing this in the first place? And then why this person has a condo and Mercedes and I hassle so much, and I still don’t have a car. It is kind of endless. If we compare, and I think it’s important to ask ourselves why, and there are always different ways to achieve the same outcome.
Kai Xin 42:52 I would disagree about comparison, I feel like it depends on whether we are comparing from a place of sufficiency or a place of deficiency. Because I mean, if you don’t compare them, we don’t know how to improve, right. And also, it’s very hopeful because I can compare this year with last year. Where am I in terms of mental well-being? And then if I don’t do that comparison, I wouldn’t know whether I’m for better or for worse, and what are some of the action steps. So if I’m comparing from a place of sufficiency and to be inspired to improve, then I think it’s actually very wholesome. But it’s not like ‘Oh, there’s a sense of lack’ And you know, FOMO rather than JOMO, then I think that’s where a lot of problems can surface. So I really think it’s the intention. And I think the sense of ego and that self also.
Amy 43:40 So I remember at one of my university lecture shadows Zen story with me on this before, I think maybe it’s really hard, like you said, to not compare at all. But I think depending on what is the outcome of the comparison, and how does it make you feel is where we need to be mindful of.
So the Zen story was actually a story of two trees. And let’s say one is an apple tree, and the other one is an orange tree. And obviously, we know apple and orange tree, let’s say they breed differently at different point in time. But if we tend to compare them as the same tree and then say, ‘Oh, how come this tree has the fruits and then this tree haven’t had the fruits yet?’ I think that’s where it will cause more suffering. However, if you’re comparing in terms of ‘Am I a better person today, versus I was yesterday.’ I think that then also gives you more gratitude and peace versus always trying to define yourself worth outside of yourself.
But yeah, I think it’s quite inevitable that we will tend to compare, but it’s more about like you said, ‘What’s your intention of comparing? What’s the outcome of your comparison?’ Then generically speaking now with the bomb of social media, the comparison are a lot more the latter that you said, which I think is not healthy for a lot of people, and sometimes people may not even realise it. Because it’s just so ingrained as they comb through and scroll down and you know, and how they feel after. So then the whole awareness and the mindfulness may not be there for them to actually digest that whole comparison thing.
Kai Xin 45:30 One of our subscribers actually asked, How can Buddhism help one to overcome procrastination? And I think in society, procrastination has a very negative connotation. I procrastinate means I’m not doing anything, or like I’m delaying the things that I’m supposed to do. But do you think that there could be a connection between what you’ve just mentioned, Cheryl, which is, do you even find the motivation and the intention to do what you like? Have you procrastinated before? Because I think people have a very warped mentality, or over achiever don’t procrastinate at all. They have no downtime, which is completely not true. Yeah. Do you feel like people procrastinate, because they don’t find meaning and motivation in what they do? And is it wrong to procrastinate?
Cheryl 46:18 I don’t think it’s wrong to procrastinate. I think because if you dig abit deeper on why people procrastinate, I think guess one part is like the lack of motivation, it just doesn’t align with what they’re interested in. Things become very effortful. And as human beings, our brains are evolved to take the path of the least resistance. That’s how we evolve and survive until 2022. I think the second part is the emotional and psychological part of procrastination, of maybe you’re feeling overwhelmed, you’re not feeling good enough. That’s why you know, you then just want to reject or resist the idea of getting started because you have that perhaps narrative in your mind that I won’t be able to finish this, or I won’t be able to do this well, so why bother?
I think the problem with procrastination is if we tie that to the person’s personality, then that becomes something that you can’t change. But if you tie it to a little bit more about the situation, then that is something you can change. So in the sense that if you have a huge project, how can you make it more doable by breaking it into smaller, smaller, like tasks, then it becomes psychologically more acceptable for you to feel motivated to want to get started.
So you know in 2020, I think everyone was talking about that whole KonMari thing, right? Where you feel joy and stuff like that. But then, so what happened now in 2022, the whole craze kind of faded away. And the reason for that was because the concept of KonMari, you need to take out everything in your cupboard, you need to take out your whole garage. So a lot of people stopped at that first step because the thought of just like clearing a whole house is crazy.
Then, Fumio Sasaki, which is a Japanese guy also that kind of works on this organising concept, came up with something that changed the whole thing. He was just like, just do one thing, just clear one thing, like just put a plate aside. And then do the second thing. Do the third thing, right, clear your forks and spoon next. And that was very appealing to everybody. Because everyone feels like, ‘Oh, I could do something, you know, I can achieve something’ And you build up their self confidence. And it leads you to do greater stuff. Slowly.
For me, I think we need to start to also understand why we procrastinate. Sometimes, if you observe enough times when you procrastinate, you might see a pattern in terms of what are the things that you typically procrastinate on. I can resonate what Cheryl just said, because sometimes you might be procrastinate, it could be a moral reason why ‘ Actually I don’t want to do this I don’t know how to tell the person no.’ And it could also be I’m fearful or I’m doubtful because I don’t know if I do this whether I will fail or not. I think there is a deeper question to ask, rather than just staying at the procrastination level, which is to say, Why am I procrastinating?
Do you know what’s the opposite of procrastination?
Cheryl: Productivity?
Amy 49:21 That was very funny. I didn’t even know this what exists, but there’s something called precrastination.
Cheryl 49:26 What?!
Amy 49:28 Yeah, so procrastination sounds like we are delaying something. But it could be our affliction why we are dealing something, but there’s also precrastination, which is and sometimes I’m guilty of that is because I want to be so efficient. Do it fast, so I just make sure I do it, you know, and then just get it and then especially for overachievers, ‘Wah shiok ah I’m doing everything and finish’ So I think there are always both sides of the coin. Okay. Sometimes we precrastinate and sometimes we procrastinate. For all for those of us who precrastinate more, is to also come back to the why. Why are you doing this thing in the first place? What’s the meaning that you’re trying to bring, rather than just jumping to doing it? For those of us who are more prone to procrastination, then we also have to understand why are we feeling that this is not the right thing to do. Or when we are feeling a bit sluggish, and we don’t want to do that, at that point in time. I think asking why instead of just hanging at that emotion level and feel bad about it, change to a more action oriented outcome.
Cheryl 50:33 Sorry I have a question. I don’t really understand precrastination. Can you explain more?
Amy 50:39 So procrastination is you have something to do and then you kind of delay it. Precrastination is you know, you have something to do, and then you just do it quickly to just it get over the line.
Cheryl 50:49 It is the same as being productive isn’t it? You just get your stuff done, right?
Amy 50:56 But precrastination is more like, you just anyhow, just get it done.
Kai Xin 51:00 I think the difference is, when we precrastinate and get things done fast, it doesn’t matter whether the task is important or not, we just want to get things checked off our list. And you know, I’m not sure whether you’re guilty of this, but I am when I finish a task, and I do it very quickly. Then I check ‘My to do list I forget to put in’. Then I will put it so I can check the box. Even though I’ve done it already.
And productivity, I think it’s effective. Some people might have misunderstood productivity as being very outcome-driven. Like it depends on the number of output. But it’s actually not the case.
Tying back to Buddhism, also overcoming procrastination, or precrastination, it’s a lot about understanding our likings and disliking. Because it’s like, ‘Oh, this is uncomfortable, I’m afraid of failure. I don’t like it. So I deny it. Or I really like the feeling of affirmation or feeling that I’m achieving something that I do a lot.’ And it’s not very sustainable. So can we do something where there isn’t a very strong sense of stimulus, but we just do it with the flow and feel fulfilled?
I think it’s about understanding likes and dislikes, and how can we stop swinging from these two ends of the spectrum, and just do because we find it fulfilling?
Cheryl 53:18 I think we spend so much time at work, right we spend, although the official one is 40 hours, but obviously, most people spend more than 40 hours at work. And our work achievements are very much tied to our ego or our sense of self. Like if you don’t do well at a presentation, you can take it extremely personally that I suck as a human being. Are there any tips to dissociate that sense of self or ego with the work that you do?
Amy: I think that is completely natural. And we shouldn’t go into self blame mode, simple maths that you just did. If I spent more than a quarter of my time of my day at work or even if I’m not at work if I’m thinking about work I will actually consider although HR wouldn’t think I’m working, but I’m still thinking. It’s natural, then we start to associate it with ourselves identity. And I think that’s when I think over COVID, with a lot of people that you know, have to lose their job because of the economy. I think that’s when it kind of struck like, ‘Oh, what is my self worth? What is my self value? etc.’
In fact, I did kind of play it back to myself. While it didn’t happen to me, and why grateful, I still have a job. I’m like, ‘Oh, my gosh, like one day, if that ever happened to me, would I completely lose my self worth?’ Coming back to the first point that we were discussing, which is why I’ve always wanted to make sure that I have the balancing factor outside of work because my self worth is not purely defined by work, while the workspace have given me the opportunity to help others and help myself, can I actually also do the same outside of work, which, obviously, I’ve proven that is possible.
Hence, I put a lot of the corporate concept into the Buddhist community, be it the mentoring programme, or, you know, International Women’s Day, what have you. I think it’s natural that we associate ourselves with that, but it’s also important to find the joy and meaning outside of work, so that you become a more holistic human being. And it’s not just one aspect of your life.
Kai Xin: I actually find the way Cheryl you asked the question at the very beginning, it’s a very helpful way to dissociate ourselves from our work. I mean, I’m not so sure whether you realise typically, when you introduce yourselves to a new person, it’s like, ‘Oh, I’m Kai Xin and I work as’ I mean, seldom people talk about hobbies, unless you are in an orientation. And it just goes to show how much intertwined our identity is with work. What if we could make it a habit to introduce ourselves with some thing more purposeful, like a broader term? Hi, I’m Amy, and I’m a joy lamp? Or people consider me as a joy lamp, then no matter where you go, that value and that personality and character would would shine and you would kind of still thrive wherever you are.
Amy: I do a test right now. So Kai Xin, can you please introduce yourself?
Kai Xin: Oh no! (laughs) Well, it’s so difficult. I mean, we still need the conventions. I will personally say, ‘Hi, I am figuring out life and perpetually curious. Life goal is to understand how the mind works. Cheryl, your turn.
Amy: This is like an arrow.
Cheryl: Hi, I’m Cheryl. And I think I’m too polarising to be fit into a description, because I just find myself a bundle of this, but that. Yeah, no answer. But that’s the answer.
Kai Xin: So, homework is for all of us to crystallise, what that means.
Amy: Yeah, and I think it’s also a very beautiful thing to say, that may change. I may tell you joy lamp now. And then 10 years down the road, you asked me, it could be something else, and it’s ever-changing, and it’s evolving, and that also showcase growth. But I think it’s a good reminder to just remind ourselves that we are more than just, you know, tying to work or certain labels or certain conventions.
Kai Xin 57:40 Great. So it’s been such an insightful conversation. I’m just wondering if we can end off with one action step that our listeners can take away, what would that be Sister Amy?
Amy Since this is about overachieving and contentment. I think one action that I would encourage all the subscribers to do is just be very kind to yourself.
Kai Xin: And why is that important? And how can they start to be kind? Where do they start?
Amy: So I mentioned that I learned accountancy, although I’m not a practising accountant, one of the talkes that I was in yesterday resonated with me and kind of like touching my accountancy DNA again. Venerable Fa Xun was sharing with me that every night before we go to bed, remember to close our accounts properly. Meaning that you know end the day with you know, gratitude, no matter how hard the day has been. Whether you know, it’s been difficult working with people or you have failed difficult on yourself being the self critic or doubt. There’s always something to be grateful for, and to end the day on such positive account and looking at things more as a glass half-full rather than empty. I think it’s important. Sometimes I think we are being too hard on ourselves. And I think we need to be like the best friend to ourselves to start first if we want to make this joy a lot more sustainable. So I think be kind. And the way to be playing is really close your account every night on a positive grateful note.
Yeah, and thanks for sharing so much with us so openly as well. I think my biggest takeaway would be to pause and understand why we’re doing the things that we’re doing. And to be able to, in a way, acknowledge that this is a long term thing not like look at things in a very short-term lens and celebrate our progress and big and small achievements on the way.
Amy: That is a very beautiful summary.
Kai Xin: Thank you so much Sis Amy, for being with us.
Cheryl: Thank you for listening all the way to the end of the episode, and I hope you have enjoyed it as much as we did. It will be really helpful if you click the subscribe button on Spotify, and YouTube and you know, do some social media magic, share, comment, tag a friend. We have exciting topics lined up, so that’s going to get juicy. You can get more information on our telegram group Handful of Leaves and you can join the discussion with the telegram community. Do share with us your main takeaway from this episode and I look forward to hearing from you.
Special thanks to Sopisa for helping with the transcript.
ABOUT AMY TONG:
Amy has 14+ years of local and international working experience in a foreign investment bank. She has a diverse career background across Finance, Relationship Management as well as Strategy & Change. She currently leads the regional team in APAC with key focus on institutional priority clients and driving digital transformation for the corporate bank.
Apart from her professional work, she is also a strong advocate for charitable causes, diversity and inclusion, youth development, and is a regular volunteer with Singapore Buddhist Mission. Find out more about her efforts in bringing the Buddhist Community together to plant seeds of joy, wisdom & compassion.
SBM Fellowship Circle Network with young adults and working professionals from the Buddhist Community to discuss current challenges and share successes as we learn the Dhamma and practice together
Empower Buddhists through mentoring, building the fellowship of kalyana mitras to support our spiritual development by practicing the Noble Eightfold Path (Season II:Class of 2022 application will open in June 2022)
