May you rejoice in the merits of this Dhamma contribution and be well and happy wherever you go.
TLDR: Joey shares her emotional journey following the sudden loss of a lifelong friend to cancer, leading her to embrace the power of gratitude and find deeper meaning in life.
The Shocking Diagnosis
“Bad news, it’s a mass. Need to do biopsy now to check.”
It was a Whatsapp message from you. My mind went blank. I resisted the urge to Google “mass in lungs diagnosis.” I did not want my imagination to run wild.
After enduring a prolonged cough and episodes of breathlessness that persisted despite visits to several GPs, you went for a specialist check-up at a hospital and were admitted immediately.
A friendship that withstood time
I have known you since Secondary 1. Although we were not in the same class, we were batchmates in Girl Guides and our friendship blossomed. Over the next 25 years, we journeyed together through important milestones of our teenage years. Coming from dysfunctional families, we became each other’s confidantes and support when stressful incidents at home were too overwhelming.
I could not recall the exact number of through-the-night phone calls, late-night hangouts, or sleepovers we had. We sang, chatted, and watched TV, and only went home when the storms had fully subsided.
“I’m really very scared. My girl is still so young.”
This was your subsequent message before I could draft a comforting reply to your previous one.
Journeying through life’s milestones together
As we stepped into adulthood and got swept up in our careers, we did not meet as often. But we witnessed each other through major life events, celebrating our joyful moments and exchanging encouragements during challenging times — landing dream jobs, bad bosses, heartbreaks, death in the family, getting married, securing our BTO, and becoming mothers.
Our friendship had only strengthened with time, expanding to include our families. There is something magical about watching our kids play together. I fondly reminisced about the fun times we had during our youthful days.
I once told you that I hoped we would still meet up regularly for tea in our golden years to complain about our husbands, children, and perhaps grandchildren.
You said you imagined it would be hard to hold your tears in on your daughter’s wedding day.
Confronting the Unthinkable
“Likely is stage 4. I need to do chemo”
My heart sank. Thousands of thoughts ran through my mind. “But we are only 37. What about her girl? She is only 6. What is the prognosis? This is too sudden. This can’t be happening. Am I dreaming?”
“Thanks for watching over my child and family. Love you girls,” was your last message to me.
Over the next week, I watched you deteriorate rapidly, confined to the ICU, unable to talk or eat, and remaining sedated as cancer ravaged your lungs, stomach, and brain.
I always believed that you would overcome this, that you could return home and recover. I knew that you were strong-willed and you did your best. But health is beyond our control.
You left us one month after your stage-4 lung cancer diagnosis. It was too sudden, too unexpected, and too tough for me to accept.
Everything feels surreal. Seeing you lifeless on a hospital bed, surrounded by those closest to you. Your funeral. Your cremation. It’s like a bad dream unfolding, and I’m powerless to stop, wake up, and find relief in the realisation that it was only a dream.
Life, Death, and Illusions
Death is the one life event that will happen to us with 100% certainty. However, it remains an abstract concept for many. Why is that so?
Our brains are great illusionists, often failing to let us perceive the true nature of reality.
The human brain is programmed to draw from our lived experiences to create a neural map of our lives, incorporating relationships with people, places, things, routines, habits, and expectations.
It is a mechanism to help the brain “save computing power”, enabling us to make sense of and predict what is happening moment by moment. The possibility of your death was nowhere in my neural map; my brain needed time to assimilate this fact and rewrite its algorithm to navigate this world without your presence.
I hope that after my brain has integrated the code “death of a loved one”, I will gain a little more wisdom to be closer to ultimate reality.
However, the way our brain is wired prevents us from seeing things as they truly are.
It tends to gather information through our five senses, making false assumptions and setting unreal expectations about how events should unfold or how our relationships with others should be. It likes to take shortcuts to conserve energy, clinging to an old mindset or defaulting to comfortable habits and routines.
Our brains want to exist in a predictable, permanent, and lasting world.
And so, we grasp, we chase, and we shun.
Seeking Meaning in the Midst of Loss
We pursue the next high-paying job, promotion, or the latest flashy phone, car, or house. We take for granted that our family and friends will always be there. We avoid discussing illness and death because we cannot imagine a future where either we or our loved ones will be gone.
Your death has prompted me to reflect on what makes life meaningful and where my priorities should lie.
If we want to have a better life with fewer regrets and more joy, we need to rely on the Dharma to overwrite the faulty algorithms in our brains.
The first week after I lost you was excruciatingly painful.
My mind struggled to accept that you would be forever absent from my future. I believed we would have many more chances to continue our yearly tradition of surprising each other with birthday gifts and treats.
Now that you are gone, I wonder: do you know how much I love and cherish our friendship? I was engulfed by overwhelming loss and sorrow. Soon, this morphed into a feeling of unfairness. The cancer had stolen my best friend, robbing all hopes, possibilities, and dreams of watching the kids grow up as we grow old together.
“Grief is love with no place to go” – is a popular quote to describe grief.
As time passed, grief silently reshaped itself within the contours of my daily life. I found this quote untrue. While life comes to an end, love lives on. The love and connection we share live on within us. It endures even after death.
With your passing, our friendship has transcended beyond the physical dimension of space and time, transforming into a spiritual relationship. You remain my best friend in this lifetime. I express my love through internal dialogues with you, often wondering about your journey in the next life and dedicating prayers, well-wishes, and merits to you.
In our physical world, where most relationships are transactional, our understanding of love can be restricted. Our expressions of love are sometimes limited to tangibles such as gifts, time, and physical touch.
The Buddha taught us about love and compassion, which is the wish for sentient beings to be free from suffering and attain happiness. A concept that is easy to grasp but difficult to embrace. If we ponder closely, love and compassion are a spiritual state of mind more than they are physical actions.
“The space is boundless,
So does your compassion.
You wish to be all living beings’ bridge [to the other shore],
It was 4 am and I lost sleep. It was the first night after your passing. You were such a devoted mother, dutiful wife, responsible worker, and one of the kindest friends I ever had.
Why did this have to happen? I have always believed that every significant person and event in our lives is there to teach us important lessons.
Yet losing you so suddenly to cancer seems senseless. We did not even get to say a proper goodbye. I kept questioning myself repeatedly: what was the lesson I needed to learn? I just could not fathom it.
We had been a part of each other’s life for 25 years and remained so close. It felt like a beautiful story which needed to end abruptly and the author struggled to write a conclusion to make it a meaningful read.
As I lay in bed, a deep sorrow gripped my heart tightly. The intense pain in my chest grew every minute, making it hard to breathe. It was too unbearable.
At the next moment, I felt love surrounding me and then enveloping me. It was a peaceful and kind energy that wrapped around me, consoling me with its warm presence, telling me that it knows my pain and suffering. That this too shall pass.
Gradually, the tightness in my chest subsided. I felt lighter. Tears flowed freely, and gratitude surged through every cell in my body. I was certain it was you. I finally knew what the lesson was.
It was friendship.
Appreciating Life’s Beauty & Moments
Through you, I learned what makes a good friend and how to be one. Our precious and beautiful friendship had enriched my life and for that, I am immensely grateful to you.
Over the next few weeks, this gratitude took root and grew. Alongside grief, I experienced a renewed sense of appreciation for events, objects, and people in life.
Saudadeis a Portuguese word that describes a longing for something that has been loved and lost, yet it also captures a sense of joy for having been loved and lost. This “joyful sadness” described my feelings perfectly.
Allow saudade to sit and experiencing it fully within me has given me insights into life.
Life’s meaning is not something to be found; it is created moment by moment in our everyday lives, and gratitude fuels it best.
Gratitude as a Way of Life
Gratitude gifted me with fresh eyes to perceive the beauty and qualities in objects, people, or moments. It helps me to slow down, be present, and be thankful for the good and bad that enter my life.
Gratitude makes the most routine, mundane, or dreadful tasks meaningful. While waiting patiently for my morning coffee, I silently expressed thanks for all the elements that made it possible for me to enjoy my drink. Not taking things for granted makes my life more vivid, rich, and meaningful. My coffee tastes much better now.
Perhaps if we consider gratitude as a way of life more than just a feeling or mental state, our lives will have more bliss, peace, and meaning.
In gratitude, I see you. In gratitude, I see our interconnectedness. In gratitude, I see the Dharma.
Wise Steps:
The love and connection with our departed loved ones transcend physical existence and transform into a spiritual relationship. We can dedicate merits and well-wishes to benefit them in their next life which helps us find solace in grief.
Our brains are masters in creating illusions which obstruct our perception of reality’s transient and ever-evolving nature. By embracing self-awareness and applying the teachings of the Dharma, we can reduce regret and cultivate greater happiness.
Gratitude is a powerful tool for healing. It can help us find a renewed sense of purpose and appreciation for life even during the toughest times.
is from Malaysia and is a Masters of Speech Pathology student at the University of Melbourne. She is the current Secretary of Vimokkharam Forest Hermitage, and resonates most with the Dhamma of the Thai Forest Tradition.
Nalanda Robson
is a PhD graduate and Japanese teaching associate at Monash University. She is of half-Thai-Australian descent. She is serving Vimokkharam Forest Hermitage as a sub-committee member.
About u awake podcast:
A space for young people to have open conversations and late-night DNMs about spirituality and Buddhism. Check them out here: Instagram, podcast.
Transcript
Kai Xin 00:00
Oh, hello, everybody. So today we have Khema and Nalanda from u awake? podcast. And this is a collaborative episode. I have with me Cheryl, my co-host. We’re going to talk about something really interesting called a friend breakup. It’s going to be quite juicy because all of us, I guess, as we move on to adult life, have probably started to fade away from some circle of friends. And some of us might have deliberately walked away from some circle of friends as well. So the starting question I have is, has any of you deliberately chosen to sever ties?
Nalanda 00:43
Okay, I’ll just go straight into the story, the trauma story. Let’s go. Let’s go. Yeah, let’s go. Okay, so I came to Australia when I was nine. A little bit of context, I grew up in Bangkok, a very Thai traditional kind of girl, very soft-spoken. Then I came to Australia, and all the kids were, whoa, amazing and confident in themselves. And I was just trying to find myself. Anyways, I got a lot of friends afterwards. In grade six, I was bullied. This was in Primary School. Last year of school, everyone, in this particular school, they’re very competitive. And I was in this nice girls’ group. But unfortunately, due to some misunderstanding, I was ganged up on. It came on very suddenly by the way. And it was more like psychological bullying.
And I didn’t really know what was happening. I didn’t know why everyone was ignoring me. And I went home and tried to figure it out. MSN, if you guys remember the day before, you know, everyone’s going on MSN. I come back home to try to figure it all out and piece all the issues together on MSN and I realised that it was turning into cyberbullying. So, from school bullying, very psychological, then it was cyberbullying. After a while, I think it was, time for me to move on. And my parents were sort of very receptive to how I was doing at home. They realised that I was getting a little bit into depression and so they moved schools. And I think that the physical moving of the schools really broke the ties of our friendship, even though I very much wanted to still hang on. I wanted to solve, somehow solve, whatever puzzle this was. And I very much respected this group of friends even though they hurt me quite a bit. I wanted to come back. I wanted to make it work. I was headstrong.
But anyways, moving to a different school, opened up my eyes. It was like a completely different world. In this new school, great friends, and everyone treated everybody else equally. There was no all-girls gang, another Malaysian gang, the Sri Lanka gang, Aussie girls, just Aussie girls. No ganging up on each other. Kids were just kids and very respectful towards each other. And I love that is a completely different environment. (Even though it was) just a few kilometres apart from each other but the level of competition in education also made the first school super stressed. All these kids were very stressed. But the second school was very relaxed.
And so I think, yes, I severed those ties, but I think because my parents physically removed me from that school, therefore, yeah, we just never came. I came back in contact with them, but it was through a lot of fear.
It took me like 10 years before I could actually speak to that particular person again, who was the head of the gang. I met her at a train station for example and I just couldn’t meet her, I couldn’t. She thought I was very rude. You know, you still have your ego from year six. What do you, ‘Oh, come on time to move on girl’. But I just couldn’t. I couldn’t physically, look at her. So, she thought I was ignoring her. Eventually, in our 20s, we met again at the train station. And I just went up to her and I hugged her. She hugged me first. And I just hugged her and I was just like, you know what we need to move on. Like, it’s been ages. Somehow, that day, I felt so much better. There was a jigsaw that was missing in my life. Sometimes I would go to bed and I would keep thinking about this lady, from a girl she’s grown into a lady, and there’s just one person in my life who I just didn’t quite catch up with her. Eventually, that day came and it was just amazing.
Cheryl 04:44
What kind of mental state were you in when you gave her the hug back? How did you reconcile? Was it just a thing where just time passing to kind of just forgive her and you’re just like, ‘it’s time to just,’
Nalanda 04:58
I was just in the moment basically. She hugged me first. It was a safe space then yeah. There was no judgement anymore. She let go, and she relinquished all of the anger. And she showed it to me first. Not through some wording, but through the action of just coming in and hugging. Because sometimes you meet someone in the street, right? It’s very awkward. Do I shake hands? Or do I hug? Or do I just ignore, what? You just walk past or pretend I didn’t notice and then just quickly go home. ‘Busy, I’m busy.’ But she came up to me very deliberately and hugged me. And that was a very big powerful moment. I was just like, I thank you so much, 15 years, you know, of me thinking of her because I really liked her. I really respected her. Some misunderstandings happen. Yeah, we yeah. It’s pretty powerful.
Cheryl 05:44
And it’s healing for both parties as well.
Nalanda 05:47
I don’t even know what kind of healing she went through. Probably a lot because she was a class captain. She was a school captain. And then the principal put her on the stage and basically humiliated her in front of the whole school and said that she was a bully. And they took away her title. She cried in front of the school. This is really dramatic. Yeah, yeah. I think traumatising for her and traumatising for me. So, yeah.
Cheryl 06:17
Was it because you reported her?
Nalanda 06:19
My parents reported her. Yeah, I didn’t report it. I didn’t want to report her. I wanted to, you know, come back be strong. And yeah, that sort of thing.
Cheryl 06:28
Yeah, I really related to your story, because I was bullied as well. And actually, for many years, I always imagined the moment that I would meet my bully again. And I would always think in my head and it became some sort of recurring nightmare. So I was like, This is what I’m gonna tell you how you hurt me, blah, blah, blah. But then I was thinking realistically if I see her I would, I would just turn the other way. And even to this day, I have not met her face to face although Singapore’s very small. But when I see people who look like her, I immediately just die inside and turn back into the 15-year-old that I was when I was bullied now just like, look to the floor and run. Yeah, right. Right. It’s very nice to hear your story. Yeah.
Nalanda 07:07
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think some people can relate. Later on, though, in Australia, the whole issue is a societal issue. Now, lots of kids are getting bullied. And in my time, it’s not something that I could identify as me getting bullied. It’s just having trouble with your friends. But these days, the word bully is very much (in the) front and centre of the media, and it’s very much in the headlines. Everybody knows bullying at school is bad. But back in the day, it was just, whatever, you know, it wasn’t dealt with. So I think more attention to the matter is a great thing.
Cheryl 07:47
Thanks so much for sharing. I’m curious about Khema’s story as well Kai Xin’s story about any friendships that you guys have severed in your life.
Khema 07:55
I don’t think there’s anything as dramatic as what Nalanda went through. But I think it was more ofwhen I was transitioning into adulthood, and I just grow as a person and I no longer what I was when I was younger, in high school and stuff. But then I felt like I had to let go of some connections because it wasn’t serving me anymore. It wasn’t nourishing for me. Or on the other hand, it was actually, I found it toxic.
There are many examples throughout my life. But then what comes to mind is during the pandemic, I was in a very vulnerable place mentally. And I couldn’t face certain people whom I knew from high school, and I found their presence quite unsafe, it made me feel unsafe. So I had to slowly phase them out. You know, people from your past (might) interact with you, based on their preconceived perception of you that they have from (when) they knew you in high school. And even though you’re not that person anymore, they still put you into that box. So I need it to let go of those connections, because I’m not like that anymore. And I didn’t want to remain like that. In order for me to keep growing. I needed to let go of those connections. That’s just one example.
Cheryl 09:23
Were there any things that they did like specifically to make you feel unsafe?
Khema 09:28
Um, I think it was more of stuff from the past, where maybe they’ve said stuff to me that really left a mark and I used to be a really insecure person. During the pandemic, where I came home, you know, I lived overseas for so many years and then came home and suddenly it’s like, you’re locked up in your house and all these traumas started coming up because I was in this home that I grew up in when I was young, right? So all the trauma, all the unresolved emotions and stuff start coming up. And I was going through a real metamorphosis at a time when I had to look at this stuff and heal. So I just couldn’t at that time. Yeah, I was very hardcore at that time. I was very like, oh, you can’t go in the space where you got hurt. You can’t go in the same space. You need to put yourself in a healthy environment in order to grow out of those toxic patterns. Yeah, super vague. But yeah.
Cheryl 10:22
It’s almost like acknowledging your own capacity to know what kinds of environments serve you so that you can be safe enough to look into your old wounds, and your old traumas, and work with them at a very acceptable pace. And the people who don’t facilitate that, unfortunately, for time being you need to kind of just set them aside until you’re ready to again, you know, face them.
Khema 10:50
Yeah, that’s right. It’s like rehab. Let’s say I’m an alcoholic, I can’t keep going back to alcohol, right? It doesn’t make sense. So yeah, I needed to be in a healthy environment where I felt safe, safe enough and relaxed enough to explore because there’s a lot of exploring, I think, when you’re healing, finding what’s right for you and stuff. So yeah.
Cheryl 11:09
Thanks for sharing that. I think my story of a friend breaking up is very similar. So for both of you who don’t know, I don’t identify as a straight person. I get attracted to women as well. This is important for the context. So, I had a very good friend, and I was developing feelings for her. Then it got to a point where it was a little bit unhealthy because she was dating someone else. And I was kind of convincing myself that we are just friends and nothing more would happen. And I think it got very unhealthy to the point that I felt very upset when I see them happy if you get what I mean. So then I decided to do a very deliberate friend breakup, I need to stop talking to you so that I can sort out my own feelings and stop in a way lying to myself that I think we can just be friends.
Nalanda 11:57
Sorry, this is a song. This is like a whole MV.
Khema 12:00
Yeah, it’s similar when you try and stay friends with your ex. Sometimes that’s possible. I think it’s up to your capacity, like you said, yeah.
Cheryl 12:09
Yeah, so, basically, I texted her and a friend break up with her and I was listening to a whole Sam Smith album, on the way back crying and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. But then I knew deep inside me that I could only be friends with her if I could stop thinking about her. And I know that I could live perfectly fine without her in my life. So I just worked on myself, did my stuff just found out different interests. And I think I got to a point where I really didn’t think about her. And I could just say hi without feeling anxious, and then that’s when we reconnected again. And unfortunately, we grew very different after that. So the friendship just evolved. We were no longer best friends. But we were just normal friends. We had great shared memories together. Yeah. So that was my experience.
Khema 12:56
Yeah, I feel sometimes you have to almost like, Okay, if you tell yourself, I’m going to temporarily put this friendship on hold. Let’s see if I can come back to it in the future. But then sometimes that doesn’t happen, too. And I think it’s okay. I think as we become adults, I’m realising more and more like one of my best friends, she said it’s like a revolving door, these relationships. But you just drift apart or you lose touch, but that’s okay.
Nalanda 13:20
You must be in a very good place now to be able to talk about it. Because yeah, it could still really hurt. And does she know? Sorry, did she know that y ou really, really liked her?
Cheryl 13:32
Yeah, she knew from the person I knew from the start that she was in a relationship. And I think because we really enjoy each other’s company, genuinely as friends. So we were just kind of thinking like, yeah, we’ll be fine with it. We’re just friends list. You just want friends and obviously being Buddhist. No sexual misconduct. And that was very clear. I don’t touch people inappropriately, and things like that. But I think it’s just, it’s just that very sneaky thing of never knowing you’re not honest to yourself until it really creeps on to you then you’re like, Oh, shit. Yeah, but Kai Xin, what’s your story? We have all shared. We’re all waiting on the edge to hear your story.
Kai Xin 14:15
My story is quite different. So I did deliberately walk away from a group of friends. That was in Polytechnic. And it’s quite, it’s quite strange because this group of friends will always hang out with one another. And I’m kind of like part of their clique, right? But I just find the whole setup to be really toxic because they will be gossiping about other people. They would be talking behind people’s backs, and I feel really bad about it. Like if they’re doing this with like us around, then will they talk bad about me as well? I just don’t feel good.
And I think over time, I try to not hang out with them as much but it’s really tricky because they keep asking me out and I say I won’t be free. And then they keep rescheduling until one of the friends, you know, texted me on the side and say, Hey, you know, we are trying to find a date where all of us can make it. And I have to just find a way to break the news just to this one person, like a trusted friend in the group and say, yeah, actually, I’m not so comfortable hanging out with the clique anymore. And perhaps, yeah, just exclude me moving forward.
And I think in hindsight now, I might have still carried on that perception of them being toxic, but I think it’s really their behaviour and what they talk about, and to what Khema mentioned, about how sometimes, you know, people shoebox us in this category, so they know us in high school, and then now they still think that we are like that person. So I feel that it’s quite a mindset shift, because I’m thinking maybe they have also grown to become more mature adults, and they don’t gossip anymore, and they’re much more wholesome to be with. If I were to see them, would I want to form that connection? Or would I still hold on to the past belief that ‘No, they are dangerous,’ which I don’t think they are. They’re really a nice person.
I think it’s just a thing that, you know, at that age, that’s how you bond, which I think it’s unfortunate, you bond over people’s misfortune or, you know, gossiping. So I do hope to see if there’s any other way that I can connect with them. If I get a chance to.
Khema 16:23
Sounds like, hearing your story, you just intuitively didn’t feel safe around them. And, I think, the more we practise and like try to cultivate wholesomeness and try to be around wholesome people, then it’s like, you’re very used to feeling safe, especially with my friends. So it’s like, in those environments, you just don’t feel that same level of safety. And I find for me, as I’ve grown in my practice, and also as an adult, I just naturally don’t gravitate towards people who just don’t make me feel safe. It could be because of their speech, you find that they’re gossiping, or whatever, my mind doesn’t analyse like that anymore. It’s really just an intuitive thing. It’s sometimes you just have that sense of Oh, I feel really safe. And these people are really wholesome.
I was actually looking into my phone last night because I was like, looking for the quote by Ajahn Jayasaro. It’s the Mangala sutta. But the way he phrases it is, I love it so much. Because you always hear ‘don’t associate with the fools, associate with the wise’. It sounds a bit like, Okay, you need to judge and you need to determine who’s a good person and who’s a bad person. But I like the way he phrases it, which is avoiding people who drag you down or encourage the worst in you associating with people who lift you up and encourage the best in you. And it’s so much kinder. It allows you to be more intuitive. I don’t think it’s a matter of, Oh, these people are dangerous. I shouldn’t hang out with them. There is a degree of judgement in thinking that.
I think for me now it’s become more like, Yeah, I’m open to whoever. And I can be friendly. I can see whoever comes through as a friend, in a goodwill kind of way. But I don’t have to associate with them closely. I can be friendly with them. They asked me to hang out. I’ll think about it if I don’t feel comfortable. And I know my No, there’s no pressure on myself either. But it doesn’t mean ‘no, like, please stay away.’. You know.
Cheryl 18:27
It’s like garlic to the vampire or something.
Nalanda 18:34
Yeah, and you’re giving them a chance as well to see if they’ve changed, which is great, which is karuna (compassion) and a bit of metta in there as well.
Khema 18:44
Yeah. And I think it’s also like, well, if you look at it, people who have these qualities, they may also need good friends, right? I think if we have the capacity and if we have enough strength in us, and so we can be that great friend. Like, we don’t have to try to make them a project. Yeah, just be natural and hang out, in my experience. You offer that safety to others, they also gravitate towards you. And then you just start hanging out. And then they start changing. But you don’t have that expectation. You know? Yeah, that’s a whole other thing.
Nalanda 19:16
That’s great. I think you just hit the nail on its head again, Khema. Great!
Cheryl 19:20
I’m just thinking, how realistic it is. Because I feel that I tend to subconsciously judge people, and I feel like, you know you used the words ‘drag you down or lift you up’? I just feel like okay, these people, if I hang out with them, my energy gets drained. And then I would kind of classify that, okay, I hang out with them, I get dragged down because we go there we talk about gossip, always surrounded by alcohol, blah, blah, blah, things like that. And I would just judge them and want to withdraw myself and hang out with other people like Dharma friends or other non-Dharma friends as well. And I think last time when I’ve I started Buddhism, I got very into this like, okay, only Dharma friends are great friends. Everyone else is like, Haiya!
Khema 20:10
Thank you so much for bringing that up because I also have the same experience and you can turn that into you are like better than everyone else. It can turn into that because it’s like, you’re looking more at the Buddhist identity. It’s like what determines someone as a Dharma friend. It becomes a thing of okay Buddhists, non-Buddhists, there’s no in between, like, I’m going to only hang out with the Buddhists. But I find that that can limit you too because it’s your own echo chamber. And then you also create a judgement towards other people. But I think over time, I’ve shifted towards like wholesomeness, like what’s wholesome. So it’s really people that nourish you. They just have the Dhamma in their heart.
Nalanda 20:52
I was just at the temple like today, right. And there was this group of interfaith people, who are sort of half Catholic dabbling in Buddhism identity as Catholic, but also, in the framework of Buddhism. They are very mixed and they’re very open-minded, and Ajahn, who’s the abbot at this temple, said, basically, if you’re all wholesome, and you’re all going towards the same thing of compassion and kindness, being amiable, working towards the same goal, I don’t see why there shouldn’t be a way of us working together. Faiths shouldn’t just clash. You know. Catholics, Jesus Christ, talked about the same thing. Well, actually, basically, the foundational of each religion talk about goodness, kindness, and good qualities in human being and cultivating those qualities. Don’t see why we can all just, you know, work together. It’s so similar that why should we be fighting? Do you know what I’m saying? So, to hear Khema’s point there of just even a monk, you know, saying this, other people are involved. Other people who are from other faiths can be our friends as well, based on this idea of just wholesomeness and accepting everybody, yeah, might not need to, just judge others all the time, based on the identity of being a Buddhist, yeah, everyone can be our friend. And we should work towards accepting lots of people to be our friends, not just because they’re Buddhists.
Kai Xin 22:23
I think that’s so true. Because if we were to hold on like an us-versus-them mentality, it hinders our practice, as well as this form of, you know, conceit, and judgement, lack of compassion. And ultimately, we need good friends in order to nudge us forward to free our hearts. And if we feel like it’s stifling whether we are just hanging around with Buddhist friends or you know, other friends who we don’t call Buddhists, I think it can still be really wholesome, if we hold on to the similarities and the virtues and just wholesome attitudes. And
I’m also thinking, sometimes we judge like, hey, is this person a good friend? Or is it not a good friend? But do we even check the boxes of having qualities of being a good enough friend to be by their side. Sometimes, I don’t even have those right? Then, who I am to judge? We’re all work in progress. So I think it’s always like a two-way thing, we have to look inwards. I think the practice kind of just gets more and more subtle as we move along.
Nalanda 23:23
That’s great. This friend supported me during the time I was bullied. She was basically the only friend I had when I was bullied, just connecting the stories together. But she’s very, very different from me. And as we grew up, became so different, even more different, especially in our 20s. She’s from a different religion. I’m Buddhist. I won’t go into specifics in case she’s listening to this. But she loves politics, football, law, and I was into music, language, and dance, completely different. And felt like every single time we meet up, I was trying because she’s a childhood friend. I appreciated her since 10 years ago, when she used to point at me.
I was just trying to like it, but there was so many differences in our lifestyle and our perspective. I was trying just for the sake of friendship. And I think that in itself was like pushing, I was really trying to push. Every single time we meet up there was a bit of distance. But I was just like, yeah, trying trying to listen to her. And she was a little bit confident in herself. And she was always talking, talking, talking, she dominated the conversations all the time. I was a good listener. I’m a good friend, because 10 years ago, she was a really good friend to me, even though we’re super different. But anyways, it’s strained.
However, I do see value in it based on the fact that these differences allowed me to understand, a different demographic of a person who I would never really be in. For example, She loves Trump. I don’t really like Trump. But I can understand now from her perspective, why people would like Trump. She’s like, this one person in this huge demographic of a world that I would probably never tap into because I don’t have an interest in it. She’s opened that world for me. And it’s exactly what Khema says. We shouldn’t have just bubbles of friends who are our echo chambers to sort of build our own ego. Yeah, yeah, agreeing with each other all the time. Having some discourse and discussion and debates makes you grow, you really grow. Like I understand now, why some people would love Trump. But she was the one who told me that. And then we had this amazing political debate. And I learned stuff from people who disagree with me and I disagree back. But it’s nice. You know, it’s a kind of like a nice intellectual discussion. We’re so different still, from time to time, we still meet up. Not very often. But I think those are still valuable friendships that I can say, I can call a friend.
Cheryl 25:48
And I think what you just mentioned falls into the category of friendship, where it’s really for you to kind of open your worldview and open your perspective. I’m just curious, to everyone here if you have other categories of friendships, and how do you define these friendships? And this is a very important question because it also kind of helps us to discern what kind of friends we want in our life and whether we should continue to nurture these friendships. Maybe I’ll pick Kai Xin.
Kai Xin 26:20
As for me, I’m really practical. Also, because I’m an introvert, I don’t socialise that much. It just drains me. So I wouldn’t say I have a lot of close friends. But I have friends who, like since high school, you know, we meet up once a year, and we can go on for hours. Recently, we just came back from a trip in JB. And we literally talked throughout the entire night. We arrived at about 9pm and then we talked through the night till 4am. And we realise, okay, we really need to sleep otherwise, the next day, you know, we would be zombified. But it’s nice. And we don’t have to meet all the time.
And I have friends who I met when I was travelling as well. I went to Amaravati many years ago and met this Thai lady. And we became good friends and also meet up once a year when I go over to Thailand, sometimes I would stay at her place, I’ll meet her parents, and then we’ll just you know, tour around the neighbourhood. And it just feels like I have known them for ages. And it’s a deep bond.
But then there are friends who I would go and consult for things that they specialised in, you know, like, if it’s finance, or is it about spirituality, there’s always these few Dhamma friends whom I think are really wise and I would go and consult them. So I wouldn’t say I have like one single friend whom I deliberately nurture the friendship. Actually, it’s something I want to learn because I feel like I’ve been pretty laid back and I don’t take enough initiative. Yeah, I’m not sure about you guys.
Khema 27:54
I won’t again, I don’t really like to categorise things. But I think for me, all my friendships are very intentional. I think all relationships in my life are very intentional. And so not Friendship Breakups, but I probably have like, really drifted away from a lot of people in my life over the course of life. And so the people that I am friends with and have and maintain those friendships with like, generally, all of them are just super nourishing and add value all those friendships individually. And so I do, I don’t know, take the time and effort to maintain them and show up in those relationships. I think even though I don’t like to categorise, there are very clear categories. I guess, how I sort of differentiate is based on how close I am and how safe I feel and what I can talk about and it’s like, I don’t know, Nalanda you’re gonna have to correct me but I heard before Ajahn Jayasaro said like there are two types of friends you have eat-friends.
Nalanda 29:00
Puen gin (เพื่อน กิน). This is Thai by the way. It means eat-friends.
Khema 29:04
Yep.
Cheryl 29:05
Oh, that’s a legit term? Wow
Khema 29:08
So you have eat-friends. Friends that Oh, you want to eat, you jio (ask/invite) them or they jio you. And your friendship is at that level where you just have fun. And then you have die-friends.
Nalanda 29:18
Puen dai (เพื่อน ตาย)
Khema 29:19
That’s right. So friends who die for you. So Ajahn Jayasaro says like everyone in the Sangha is a die-friend. Right? And so I think for me, I feel like a lot of my friendships are at that level where there’s just so much love for each other that okay, I’m not gonna speak for my friends and say they’ll die for me. I’m not gonna die for them, but
Nalanda 29:39
I’ll die for your Khema.
Khema 29:39
Awww. There’s so much love going on here. Straight up, straight up right now. Whether you would die for that friend or they would die for you. I have friends in uni. Obviously. We have a lot of fun together. It was also very meaningful. We help each other in our studies and stuff help each other in life. We’re there for each other international students, you know, sometimes you need those relationships. And then just wholesome friends, just wholesome close friends whom you can talk to about matters of the heart. And I think for me, the highest level is like Dharma friends, or spiritual friends, like they don’t even have to be Buddhist, but they just got your back. They’re really like the die-friends, you know. People like Nalanda. For me, Ajahn; My Ajahn. And it’s like when you can talk about death, or we can talk about the real shit, you know. I’m sorry, do you guys swear on your podcasts? You can beat me up. But when you can talk about these things, and it’s like in those moments show up for each other. That for me is like the highest level, right.
Cheryl 30:54
Are they fluid? First of all, do the people change categories and do the topics change categories as well?
Kai Xin 30:59
It’s like some ranking system.
Khema 31:01
Again, I don’t like ranking and categorising. But people are fluid, right? They’re not boxed up. It’s not black and white. So it’s like, people are always changing. Relationships are always changing. Some people leave the group completely. And that’s cool. Because life is a revolving door. But just bring continue bringing wholesomeness and living the Dharma, and then bring it into these friendships, and they just go whichever way they’re meant to go.
Nalanda 31:28
I feel like if they’re worth your effort and worth the investment, sometimes, even the friends with whom you have less effort, you can try and like still work on it. So I have a couple of friends who are like diehard friends, I went to camps with them, and I went to high school with them. These are very, very good friends. They do have their flaws and there are certain topics that I wouldn’t talk to them about, because it turns them into like, a person that I don’t want to associate with. But essentially, as a whole person, this person is very nice. This is a very nice person, this is still a wholesome person.
And no one is black and white like that. So these people are grey, and these people are, like you said work in progress, right? So I give them a chance. You know, I’m saying like, especially if we’ve gone through, gone through a huge chunk of life with them, we see them grow, and I think is about first of all, a lot of compassion to them. And if they’re hurt, they’re hurt for a reason someone hurt them, or that is like an ongoing trauma for them. That’s why they’re acting out a certain way, their reactions or their behaviours are from something that something sometimes they can’t control. So I don’t want to like, ‘Ew! I don’t want to associate with you. You just said this. Bye!’. Sometimes I work on it. And slowly, if it’s not workable, if I feel like for my own safety, I want to protect my time, protect my resource, protect my own feelings, I will slowly shift away. But sometimes I come back. So giving distance and a bit of time is a great thing and just revisiting from time to time. Hey, Kelsey, are you okay? Are you still that angry, bitter person? If they’ve changed then oh, Kelsey, you’re great. Let’s go back to hangout again.
Kai Xin 33:18
Is Kelsey, a real person?
Nalanda 33:19
No.
Kai Xin 33:23
Kelsey, if you’re listening.
Khema 33:29
Yeah, I think that’s the nature of friendship, right? Once I started coming out off like the categorising between Buddhists and non-Buddhists, this friendship what we call friendship, which is like when you talk about Metta, it’s so tied into the idea of friendship and goodwill. Everything can be accepted, everything. Whatever your unwholesomeness everything. We just keep cultivating that goodwill that is the foundation of the friendship and as long as this continues to be nourishing and beneficial, then yeah.
Nalanda 34:00
And sometimes it’s nourishing and beneficial to heal someone else or to sometimes be hurt from time to time. Be hurt but feel like we’re growing together. Maybe there’s some sort of nourishment and benefit to going into a relationship and then trying to work it out. Even though you’re both hurting but you know the outcome would be nice. It’s like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship right now I feel like I’m talking about different kinds of relationships. We’re moving into different categories. But this is something you work on. You want to work on it you really want to. You’re both hurting, but you want to work on it.
Cheryl 34:36
I think the foundation of any relationship be it friendship or romantic is the same right? It’s a work in progress and acceptance of each other’s flaws and wholesomeness, in the good and the bad that makes it makes it so fulfilling when you are working together. And I really liked the word that Khema used which was acceptance of it because I think accepting doesn’t mean agreeing or disagreeing. Accepting is really just holding space for the person to be as they are. And from that, just by holding space, you know, beautiful things evolve.
Kai Xin 35:05
Perfectly put.
Khema 35:06
Yeah, and I don’t think friendships all have to look the same. And it doesn’t have to be like, Okay, we have to both be growing together. Otherwise, I can’t be friends with you. Sometimes it’s like, you are the one that helps them grow, or they are the one. Like, you know, for example, Ajahn for me is like this person who’s the ultimate friend. And like, for me, it’s more about he gives to me, and I receive more from him. And sometimes you are that friend for other people. And I think as long as there’s that goodwill, so much can come out of this connection.
Kai Xin 35:39
That’s so beautiful. So it’s not just we taking but sometimes we can give as well. And I think going back to the Mangala sutta that you’ve quoted, ‘Don’t associate with the foods and associate with the wise’, that’s commonly what’s translated. In one of the Dhamma talks, Ajahn Anan was actually answering a question from a novice monk. Hey, if we don’t associate with the fools, then how would the fools ever be wise? That’s assuming that we like the wiser person, right? And I was like, Oh, that’s such a good question. Because if you take a look at the Buddha, the Buddha is such a good friend to so many people, and without his wisdom, and if he doesn’t associate with those who need his wisdom, then we wouldn’t be able to see the Dharma today. There’s no like, you know, generations of Dharma being passed down. And I think what Ajahn Anan said was so beautiful. So it goes back to the capacity.
First, we have to be honest with ourselves, do we have the wisdom in order to discern what is beneficial to us, and what’s not beneficial? If we don’t even have that, and we mingle around with people who have unwholesome habits, it’s very easy for us to be swayed off the path. But then once we stabilise our Dharma practice, then we can be that pillar of support for others, to then be the light that shines. But of course, it’s a very subtle thing, because of conceit, you always can’t see it when you’re in it. Right? It’s always in hindsight (that you see it). Hence, I think, it’s so important to then associate with people who are wiser than us to say, Hey, Kai Xin, you know, you’re being too egoistic. You think you’re better than others, but actually, you’re not. And, yeah, to be willing to oppose, I think it’s a fine balance between these two.
So thanks, Khema, for bringing that up: to give as well, rather than just take.
Cheryl 37:20
And just going back to our topic of the day, you know, talking about friend breakouts, I think at the start of the conversation, we shared a lot of different scenarios, in which we, we kind of broke off. Either through literal physical separation or a more deliberate and intentional one, like Kai Xin and my choice. Then for Khema, I think it’s, it’s more on the intentional one as well.
How do we know it’s the right time to do a friend breakup? Is there a way where we know like, Okay, this is the time, we should fade away from this person or start withdrawing contact with this person?
Nalanda 37:58
And this is like an ongoing thing between me and Khema. We have an episode on this as well, on our podcast. We talk about how to say no, and when to say no, it is an ongoing skill that we need to do everybody. Even I sometimes, you know, as an adult, I don’t know how to say no. In the past, as a girl, very young, and naive, still don’t really know how to say no and break up a relationship or when that perfect time is, I just endure the pain. You how Ajahn said, like, you just tolerate it. And sometimes it gets to a point where you really need to stop (because) it is not a dull pain anymore. It’s like a sharp pain. Yeah, but as an adult, you kind of understand these conditions a bit more, you’ve been through the situations, you’re older now. And you just don’t want to waste too much time. So you see a dull ache that is about to turn into a sharp pain, and you take action. There’s like the initiative to protect yourself, and you come in with a lot more wisdom. And you know how to say no to this relationship before. Before you start getting attacked. You protect yourself and you can stand up for yourself better, I think as an adult. Yeah.
Cheryl 39:06
But I think a lot of times the dull just feels not very pleasant, but it doesn’t feel too unpleasant either. So I find myself in a lot of situations where I don’t particularly enjoy, nor do I particularly not enjoy the company of the people. So it’s just like, it’s okay, I get my meals in while I meet my friends as well, and then get a couple of banter in. I don’t feel particularly great. I don’t feel particularly terrible after that. So it just goes on and sometimes it can go on for years, right? Because you don’t want to create drama by saying hey, I don’t want to hang out anymore to just go along and the dull pain just continues.
Kai Xin 39:46
I think it will become telling if you continuously hang out with this group of people whom you are quite hesitant to hang out with and it’s compromising other aspects of your life. Then you have to make a choice but if you do have some space. It’s like, well, I don’t mind hanging out, not liking not disliking just, you know, spending time together. I think that is still okay. It’s still healthy. But it’s really important to say ‘no’, right? Because when we say ‘no’, we are saying ‘yes’ to something more important.
So I think it is different for everybody, depending on their lifestyle, their schedule, and what they prioritise. I don’t think that’s an answer, like a model answer for everyone. For me, my clear litmus test, or yardstick would be am I hesitant to meet up with this person? And if the answer is yes, and I know it’s compromising on some other aspects of my life, I’m going to come out more stressed because I don’t have time you know, to complete my tasks, etc, then I would lean towards a ‘no’ and be skilful in rejecting.
Khema 40:50
I think to Kai Xin’s point of when you say ‘no’ to something, you’re saying ‘yes’ to something else, and why I find friend breakups to be so dramatic, is because I’m not like, you know, sitting here trying to like decide should I break up with this friend or not? It feels a bit uncomfortable. It’s more like, I’m putting my energy into other things, that gives me more joy, and uplift me more into people and spending time with those people instead. And so naturally, it’s like, I end up not having as much capacity or time to spend with other people who don’t nourish me in the same way. So it’s not as dramatic as like, ‘I don’t know, keep spending time with these people every week, but I don’t actually like them.’. It’s more of I’m already spending as much time all these people that I love and it helps me grow that like I actually don’t have the time for all these other people. And it’s more like that naturally allows things to change. And those people sometimes drift away from you. Rather than here guys, I don’t really like you anymore. So bye.
Nalanda 41:53
Marie Kondo. You Marie Kondo your friends. Is this bringing me joy?
Khema 42:01
When you hug the person, you ask ‘you do spark joy?’. This bugger.
Cheryl 42:08
I think almost subconsciously, we do have an intention when we hang out with whoever, right so even it could be someone that you don’t really like probably the reason that you hang out with the person is because you don’t feel lonely. And then that takes up your time. So it’s really about understanding what your intention is truly, and really reflecting whether the amount of time you spend with a particular friend or friend group, nourishing or fulfilling to you and is that really the best way you could spend your time. And also, I think a lot of times, this is going back to what Khema mentioned about giving and taking as well, which Kai Xin mentioned as well, is like, for me, I come across more self-centred. I’ll be thinking what can I get from this friend group, friend interaction. But then now I can also consider, ‘Do I have the capacity? And is there something that I could give to this friend group as well? Does someone need a listening ear or someone need someone to confide in?’. Little mind shifts.
Kai Xin 43:09
And how can you set the right conditions for that friend group who you don’t really like to be something that you really like? Because it’s all causes and conditions, the seed that we plant. So if you don’t like them, because they are always gossiping, then perhaps we can be the ones to move the conversation to something more wholesome. I think sometimes for me, I miss that part where actually I do have certain control over how I contribute to friendship. So it’s not always, you know, taking things as they come.
Khema 43:42
Yeah, I think that over time becomes an intuitive thing. Rather than seeing it as What can I get from this? Or what can I give to this person? It’s more like, do I feel good? Like, that’s it. How do I feel? So well, when I spend time around that, my friends are I just feel so bright. And so you just keep wanting to do that. Really moving with intention and intuition. Yeah, I think it’s, it’s a slight paradigm shift. Which feels less for us. It’s more natural. Yeah.
Nalanda 44:16
Maybe over time, as we grow older, like all of us, we’re in our 20s, right? Maybe as we grow older 30s 40s 50s And we look back, and eventually, one day, we’ll find that friend who just brings us so much joy and we can just be around them and just be and feel safe and able to talk about everything and anything and just have that one person. But at the moment I have like lots of friends and they all have their different level of capacity with different battery levels in different situations. Oh, everyone has trauma. Everyone’s still emotional. Everyone’s like, you know, all over the place. I think through a lot of time, wisdom, and age, age is like, you know, through experience We’re gonna be able to like find that amazing gym, amazing diamond of a friend.
Cheryl 45:05
If not like, if we don’t find at the very least we become that gem of a friend who can be a blessing to others as well. Yeah.
Kai Xin 45:11
Or we can be that own friend that we never had. I mean, our own friend.
Nalanda 45:16
Yeah. And yeah, just support yourself. Live alone. No friends.
Kai Xin 45:23
That sounds quite sad.
Nalanda 45:26
That’s how we’re going to end.
Khema 45:26
The conclusion is we don’t need friends.
Nalanda 45:35
Today, like someone asked him (Ajahn), Is it possible for lay people to experience enlightenment. He’s like, it’s very difficult. But with the power of good friends, very, very good friends, and the support of good friends, you are going to have more chances and a better chance to actually get there. And that was a nice way of ending the talk about friendship. And I thought about you guys.
Khema 45:58
Yeah, I think in terms of like being alone as well, I’ve had situations in my life where it’s like, no, there’s actually no inspiring friends that, not placing a judgement, but it’s like, there’s a lot of toxicity around me. So I have to just rather just be on my own. Because if I spend time with these people actually, like that quote, like it drags me down. So in those moments, I’d be alone. But then, to know one last point of what Ajahn said, also kind of like, acknowledged, oh, my god, I’m so deluded. I need, I need to hang out with the Ajahns, I need to hang out with Dhamma friends who practice way more than I do, because I need to borrow their power, their energy, because I don’t have that right now. And if you keep brightening your mind, and you just keep cultivating those qualities and strengthening your heart until one day, it’s okay, you can slowly be more independent in your practice.
Nalanda 46:54
Right, that other thing Ajahn said about friendship was that you can have a few friends and that’s it. Sometimes being a Buddhist, and you want to get like to the higher level of like a Buddhist practice, you can’t really be popular. You might just have a few friends. And that’s enough.
Cheryl 47:10
It is never about the quantity, but it’s always about the quality.
Khema 47:14
Exactly. You know Ajahn’s top five people are like all the Kruba Ajahns. How can you go wrong with that?
Cheryl 47:21
I know. Right? So just to wrap things up, do we have one advice, let’s say, anyone who’s having toxic friends or friendships that are not serving them, are there any tips on how they could cut it off?
Nalanda 47:42
People. Walk away, just walk away. Just communicate, give them a message, call them up and say, Hey, I’m not ready. I think that would be my approach. Unfortunately, I’m very straight. I’m like Aussie now. I’m a very straightforward person and just tell them like, Hey, don’t really want to hang out right now. Do what Kai Xin did. You did that right? You were like, just straight up skillfully told them what you needed to tell them, communicate the fact that you don’t want to be around them anymore and say, you know, you guys can still hang out but just without me. And I feel very safe to not doing that. Right now. I feel okay to not be with you guys. But later on, I might come back and reevaluate, reevaluate the friendship later on. I think that’s a great way.
Kai Xin 48:30
I actually only told one friend who is part of the group. I didn’t have the guts to tell (the whole group). I think it’s a bit intimidating.
Nalanda 48:37
But that friend was a representative of the whole group. So they’ll just go until the group.
Cheryl 48:41
Screenshot and send it.
Kai Xin 48:43
I’m not so sure what happened after that. It could be the case where maybe one person in the group just stopped saying that, hey, you know, maybe you should just reschedule to wait for Kai Xin to be available. And it’s like, Oh, it’s okay, let’s move on without her. It could be indirectly fading me off. Or it could be, hey, Kai Xin said this, she doesn’t want to hang out anymore, which I hope he didn’t do that.
Nalanda 49:08
Okay. Well, you were very brave still. You were very brave anyways to do that.
Kai Xin 49:13
I really think it depends on the circumstances. Because if it’s one on one, and you’re really close with that person beforehand, I think it’s okay to open and honest conversation and to be upfront about it and talk things through maybe you know, after a conversation, you realise that, hey, the dynamic of the friendship can be tweaked a little bit, and you would still appreciate hanging out with one another, maybe just not as frequent or maybe doing a different activity, who knows the friendship might change and evolve in shape and form. But then if it’s in a bigger group, I think it’s more tricky because you have to think about whether you will be sidelined, safety is also one (consideration) and there are a lot of implications and potential misunderstandings. So I think my approach would be to slowly just fade away. And like what Khema mentioned, right, you’re going to prioritise something else and be occupied with those things. So you don’t lie to say you’re not free, but you really are not free. And just somehow or another, they will distance away from you, and make it organic. Khema? What are your thoughts?
Khema 50:25
I feel like the way that you break up with your friend would depend on what the current connection is, like, you know, if they’re, you know, really adamant about asking you all the time, and it’s like, you just don’t feel comfortable, then obviously, direct communication is required.
Or sometimes you don’t even feel safe enough to tell them that you don’t feel safe and that you don’t want to continue having this conversation, in which case, I think silence, which we now call ghosting, or fading them out slowly, and just short replies, stuff like that. I think that’s okay. It’s important to protect your space so that you can grow. And, you know, I feel like, maybe there is some hesitation to let go of toxic friends, because the concept of being alone is, oh, no, I’m gonna be alone. Now, who am I going to hang out with if you’ve never had an alternative right?
But I think in those situations, really having to do inner like, what an inner reflection on what do I want to prioritise in my life, if I keep putting my time into these relationships that are not serving me, then I’m never gonna grow. So it’s like making sure you have your priorities straight. And then that allows you to intentionally seek out people who are more aligned with you and what you’re trying to aspire to. And that’s where your time goes on. And I think naturally, you build that up. And then suddenly, it’s like, you’re surrounded by all these devas, and it’s like, oh, my gosh, life is great. The Dhamma is real. Like, you’re just, yeah, I think that that can happen.
Nalanda 52:01
That was really good. I would probably just trust my gut instincts. If there’s a friend who’s really hurting me, physically, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, I think a nice clean cut is probably a great thing as well. Trust your gut instinct. Yeah. And for the listeners out there, there’s no Yes or No, there’s no black and white and there’s no right or wrong answer. Trust your gut instinct and just consider what’s best for you sometimes. Yeah, your safety is very important as well. Don’t be like that girl, you know, the Indonesian case where like, they’re really great friends. And then she poisoned her best friend at the mall. Oh, yeah, she was like a jealous friend. This is a very, very big case, you guys. So call the police if you have a toxic friend like that.
Cheryl 52:48
Just wanted to add that perhaps if you’re in a friend group that you don’t really like all you can do is try to get to know the people individually and I think people behave very differently when they are in one-to-one setting versus when they’re in a group because there are so many different factors right like the power dynamics that just makes the whole thing semester a little bit more superficial. So yeah, trying to get to know the person on a deeper level and perhaps you could find out unexpected friendship there. And always understand your capacity like you can patiently endure to a certain extent but it’s really taking a toll on your mental health. Just being in the presence of this person gives you a headache, then you know, that’s a good signal and indicator that you should withdraw from them physically. So love yourself and do what’s right. So I think that we can end today’s episode. I think that’s a lot of content today. And if you’re listening all the way to the end here, make sure to check out the u awake? podcast.
Nalanda 53:53
Thank you, Cheryl. Thank you Kai Xin for inviting us. We had a great time. Great chat. And you guys up podcast friends as well. You are in the circle now. You can sit with me, you can sit with me. Thank you, guys.
Thank you to our sponsors of this episode:
Alvin Chan, Tan Jia Yee, Siau Yan Chen, Tan Key Seng, Ven You Guang, Soh Hwee hoon, Wilson Tan.
Does applying Buddhist principles of compassion and kindness make you a walking doormat at the workplace? PJ Teh, a former Strategic Planning manager at EDB, challenges that view and gives us points to think about, in this mini-article series.
TLDR: We spend more than a quarter of our adult lives at the workplace. Knowing how to choose your workplace can either build or destroy your character. Choosing the right people, and culture, and asking the right questions is crucial!
Principles in the financial world and the Dhamma
The term Dharma/dhamma is something that brings up the mental image of a Californian long-haired hippy with incense and drugs, spouting free-love, with flowers in their hair.
In reality, the term Dhamma is simply a set of conditionality or principles: this can be seen from how they are described, which are usually sets of conditionality i.e. if A happens, that allows B to happen, etc.
So that is why in my mind, “Applying Buddhist Principles at Work” is the same thing as “Applying the Dhamma at Work”.
Ray Dalio, a famous hedge-fund manager, who wrote a best-selling book “Principles” gives us further insight into the workplace. His book is about the principles he used to grow Bridgewater Associates into one of the largest funds in the world: that is a kind of Dhamma for hedge funds (and decision-making), with many overlaps with Buddhist Dhamma.
Instead of ‘lazily’ applying the Eightfold Path and Four Noble Truths, I’m taking a first-principles approach to the Dhamma at Work, but without necessarily being MECE (mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive). These are decisions and actions that anybody probably needs to act on, at work.
These are my personal views on the matter, so please feel free to look at it differently. 🙂
I should also caveat that these Buddhist principles might not make you rich or conventionally successful. But you will probably sleep well at night, and probably suffer a lot less, and be happier!
The following decisions need to be made by anybody with regard to any workplace.:
Choosing a workplace
How to look at issues and matters, and how to decide
How to treat people at the workplace
How to conduct oneself
This article will cover ‘Choosing a workplace’ with subsequent articles covering the other areas.
Choosing the place where you spend a quarter of your adult work life
A workplace is an environment where your mind will be in, for a substantial amount of your life.
A week has 168 hours: a typical work week takes up anywhere from 42 to 120 of those hours, which is 25% or more of your total time. That’s where your mind will be at.
What happens at work also spills over to the rest of your life, shaping your mental state for your week. Hence, I think choosing a workplace is perhaps the most important decision to make.
So how should we choose a workplace? I have a few factors to consider.
1. Choosing the people
The first factor to decide about a workplace is the people you’re going to be working with. You become the people around you.
This was so important, that Ananda (who was the Buddha’s personal attendant) was rebuked by the Buddha for saying that the good friendship was only half the Holy Life:
When a bhikkhu (monastic) has a good friend, a good companion, and a good comrade, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path.
The same consideration applies to choosing our colleagues.
Why is it so important to choose your colleagues carefully? This is because of anatta, or non-self: if there truly is a self that was fully in control, then the environment wouldn’t impact any individual.
But precisely because anatta or non-self is true, we humans are influenced easily by the people and environment around us.
Choosing the workplace, especially choosing the people you work with thus helps shape our own minds and conditions.
2. How do I know if the culture is right for me?
Related to this, is whether the culture of the team and workplace you’re joining is a good or bad culture. How do you know if it’s good or bad? And good or bad, with reference to what?
Choose a workplace culture with reference to your state of mind, and your progress on the Eightfold Path.
If you go to a workplace and you end up having a lot of strong desires, that’s probably not good.
Nothing below a five-star hotel
When I was working with a previous employer in finance, an ex-boss said to me “You know, PJ, I can never stay in a hotel less than five stars, and on a plane less than business class.”
I was horrified and asked why. She said, “because I am so used to this, that anything less is really uncomfortable.”
It was suffering for her, basically, because the financial industry had norms that were extremely expensive. And that’s when I realised that the industry was Super Samsara!
That’s when I decided I had to leave because I also noticed that many of my colleagues and peers were not happy, not very healthy, and used their high pay to “buy happiness” outside of work, indulging in all kinds of expensive things.
The layoffs happened
When we were laid off due to the financial crisis, I heard an ex-colleague had cash for only half a month’s worth of rent in her bank account, because she had spent all her income on spa packages, pedicure packages, gym packages, branded clothes, bags, drinks, expensive dinners, etc.
So she was desperate to get another high-paying job as a banker, even though the market was flooded with retrenched bankers.
My own state of mind back then was extremely unhealthy: strong desires, bad-tempered, and lacking sleep (I was working 90-120 hours a week).
Even though it has taken ten years to get back to the base-level salary I earned in the investment bank, I still think it was the right decision to leave (or rather, to get laid off).
The Buddha gave this advice on how to choose a place for a monastic:
Buddha: Take another case of a mendicant who lives close by a jungle thicket. As they do so, their mindfulness becomes established, their mind becomes immersed in samādhi, their defilements come to an end, and they arrive at the supreme sanctuary. But the necessities of life that a renunciate requires—robes, alms-food, lodgings, and medicines and supplies for the sick—are hard to come by. That mendicant should reflect: ‘…I didn’t go forth from the lay life to homelessness for the sake of a robe, alms-food, lodgings, or medicines and supplies for the sick… they shouldn’t stay there.
This advice isn’t just for monastics but is applicable to anyone who is intent on walking the Path.
What’s perhaps most interesting is the subsequent instruction from the Buddha. When your meditation, mindfulness and practice aren’t good, due to your environment,
That mendicant should leave that jungle thicket that very time of night or day; they shouldn’t stay there.
That’s how important the Buddha placed the effect of a place on one’s mind.
Asking the human mirrors you live with at home
How should you apply this learning, if you don’t really meditate nor keep precepts?
A simple way is to ask the people who live with you: are you becoming more gentle, kinder, and compassionate? Or are you becoming more of a pain in the ass to live with?
That will tell you how your mental cultivation is going. If your workplace is causing you to be more irritable, have strong sensual desires, and crave more material things, then you’re probably in the wrong place.
And if you see that a workplace is full of people with big egos, anger, strong sensory desires and material things, those workplaces are probably the places to avoid.
Wise Steps:
Understand the impact of colleagues on your mind and choose them wisely. Which of your colleagues improve your mind, and which do not?
Check-in with the people you live with if your character has improved or worsened since you joined your firm; this is one of the best indicators of whether you chose the right place. What do they say?
Wholesome Wednesdays (WW): Bringing you curated positive content on Wednesdays to uplift your hump day.
This month is one focused on mental health and mental well being. We often try to understand how we can support our friends. Plot twist: What if our actions are harming them instead? How can identify these signs and do better? The truth is less shocking than we think. Here’s two stories to support our journey in becoming a better support!
1. 6 Signs YOU’RE the Toxic Friend
2. What to say and not to say when supporting a friend
6 Signs YOU’RE the Toxic Friend
Snapshot from the video
What’s going on here & Why we like it
Psych2go, a youtube channel focused on mental health, shares 6 signs that help us identify if we are the toxic friend we wished we wouldn’t be. We like it because we often like to think of ourselves as helping others and being kind to our friends. This video shines a light on our potential blind spots. Don’t root for their success? Enable their negative and self-destructive behaviour? These are some signs that there might be signs of toxicity. Don’t despair if you find these signs in you, it is an opportunity to grow and develop!
“Is it hard for you to say sorry? We all make mistakes…But if your response is to tell others to suck it up and not worry about it without considering how they feel, then you are doing more harm than good to your relationship”
Wise Steps
It is tough to shine a light on our blind spots. Running through this list of signs can help us be the friend our friends need.
What to say and not to say when supporting a friend
Snapshot from Maggie the Therapist
What’s going on here & why we like it
Maggie, a therapist, shares on what are some signs of toxic positivity, why it is toxic, and what we can say to our friends that are feeling down. This provides readers with a very actionable list of things to say when stuck in a situation where we are inclined to say ‘just try to smile!’ or ‘good vibes only’. We love it for its actionability and practicality. Enjoy!
“It (toxic positivity) provides false reassurance rather than genuine empathy”
Wise Steps
Follow and memorise some of the phrases to say if you are often stuck in knowing what to say. Ultimately, we have to also apply empathy and compassion when supporting friends. Though our words are one part of the story of helping others…knowing what to say is a helpful starting point.
