In this episode of Handful of Leaves, Sister Sylvia Bay addresses the journey of overcoming anger through Buddhist teachings and mindfulness practices. It emphasises the importance of contentment, acceptance, and the Buddhist concept of Anattā, or non-self, which challenges the notion that we have complete control over our emotions and behaviours. By embracing love and compassion consistently, one can begin to alter negative mental habits and foster a more peaceful mindset. The discussion highlights a three-step approach: avoiding harm, doing good, and purifying the mind.
About the Speaker
Sylvia Bay has been dedicated to the study and practice of Buddha’s teaching since 1992. She graduated with a B.A. (Hons) First Class, in Buddhist Studies, from the Buddhist and Pali University of Sri Lanka in 2000 and joined the teaching staff of the Buddhist and Pali College (Singapore) in 2001. Since 2002, Sylvia has also been a regular speaker on Buddhist doctrine, Buddhist history, and the practical application of the Buddha’s teachings in daily life, at the invitation of various Buddhist organisations in Singapore. She published her first book in May 2014: the 1st volume of a 2-part series on the life of the Buddha which is titled, “Between The Lines: An Analytical Appreciation of Buddha’s Life”. Volume 2 was launched on Vesak day of year 2015. Sylvia also holds a B.Soc.Sci (Hons) from NUS and a Masters in International Public Policy (M.I.P.P) from School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), Johns Hopkins.
Key Takeaways
Acceptance of Non-Self
Understanding Anattā, or the non-self, helps to release the illusion of complete control over emotions and fosters acceptance of natural, instinctual responses.
Three-Step Path to Peace
Following Buddha’s guidance of “avoid evil, do good, purify mind” lays a structured foundation for breaking the anger cycle by replacing negativity with positivity and compassion.
Consistency in Compassion
Regularly practicing kindness, even without immediate emotional response, gradually rewires the brain toward spontaneous compassion, transforming anger into a more loving outlook.
Transcript
Full transcript
[00:00:00] Sylvia Bay: In our practice, we need to learn, because it’s not a habit. We need to learn contentment, acceptance. When we are disappointed with ourselves, we say that we’re not nice because we do all these things.
[00:00:20] In a way, we are not realising Anattā. Anattā means you are conditional arising. The average person assumes that he can make things happen. He can decide. He has will. He will shape things.
[00:00:35] It’s will, you will. You will it and you do it. Therefore you’ve got to live by it. Humans are very complex. There is this imagination that you have will, but actually you’re being driven by defilements.You’re being driven by wholesome mental states. Or rather you’re cuddled, you’re cocooned in wholesome mental states. Or you feel driven, you feel helpless.
[00:01:02] I don’t get angry, but that happens. I don’t want to get jealous, but it happens. I didn’t want to kill this guy, but he makes me so angry. It happens. Then you see, yeah, you have no will. You didn’t exercise your will. You are not a good person. You are mean. So we judged this guy, but the pain, the instincts buried in here is so instinctive.
[00:01:22] So the first thing you have to do, that’s what the Buddha say, in a three step, avoid evil, do good, purify mind. It goes in that order. The first thing is you learn to overcome your negativities. And you overcome it by consistently and constantly doing what he tells you is beneficial and helpful.
[00:01:45] You want to break the anger habit, you have to constantly give love.
[00:01:52] So when anger is already like (bubbling), I embrace you (anger). When you say, “I wish you well, may you be well and happy“, there’s no feeling because the anger is so strong, but you don’t get into it. Constantly “I wish you well, I wish you well”. At some point the mind gets it. You’re wishing people well, cannot be so rude.
[00:02:13] Eventually over time, it becomes Metta. It becomes very spontaneous. How long did it take to get you here? The wiring needs to change, you know?
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen
Editor and transcriber of this episode:
Bernice Bay, Eng Yean Khai, Tan Si Jing, Susara Ng
In this captivating podcast episode, Dhamma expert Sister Sylvia offers profound wisdom on navigating the complexities of a chaotic world. From understanding how human instincts drive us to judge others to learning the art of letting go, Sister Sylvia shares practical Buddhist principles for fostering mindfulness and compassion. This conversation is not just about surviving life’s storms—it’s about thriving through deeper self-awareness and spiritual practice. Dive into this episode to discover how to overcome expectations and free yourself from unnecessary suffering.
About the Speaker
Sylvia Bay has been dedicated to the study and practice of Buddha’s teaching since 1992. She graduated with a B.A. (Hons) First Class, in Buddhist Studies, from the Buddhist and Pali University of Sri Lanka in 2000 and joined the teaching staff of the Buddhist and Pali College (Singapore) in 2001. Since 2002, Sylvia has also been a regular speaker on Buddhist doctrine, Buddhist history, and the practical application of the Buddha’s teachings in daily life, at the invitation of various Buddhist organisations in Singapore. She published her first book in May 2014: the 1st volume of a 2-part series on the life of the Buddha which is titled, “Between The Lines: An Analytical Appreciation of Buddha’s Life”. Volume 2 was launched on Vesak day of year 2015. Sylvia also holds a B.Soc.Sci (Hons) from NUS and a Masters in International Public Policy (M.I.P.P) from School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), Johns Hopkins.
Key Takeaways
Judgment and Instincts:
Sister Sylvia explains how judgment stems from our survival instincts, which often push us into a cycle of assessing others as threats. Understanding and regulating these instincts through mindfulness can help us replace negative reactions with compassion and wisdom.
The Power of Mortality Reflection:
Reflecting on impermanence and death is a powerful tool for aligning with the Dhamma. Recognizing that life is temporary allows us to let go of trivial conflicts and focus on living mindfully with kindness and purpose.
The Role of Mindfulness in Everyday Interactions:
Mindfulness isn’t just about observing the external world but about monitoring our internal reactions—feelings, judgments, and narratives. By mastering this, we can transform negative emotions into positive, constructive responses that benefit both ourselves and those around us.
Transcript
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves episode. I am Cheryl. Today our topic is how to deal with an insane world and how to let go of expectations of other people.
I aspire to practice doing good, take the five precepts, avoid evil and purify our minds. How can we practice in such a way that we don’t suffer over our expectations? We will begin with this “Let’s Be Real” question of the day, which is everyone judges, so how can we be less judgy?
The guest is Sister Sylvia, she’s an experienced Dhamma speaker, practitioner and scholar, she has a lot of experience in Dhamma practice. I’m very excited to invite her. Welcome, Sister Sylvia.
[00:00:39] Sis Sylvia: Hello. You have asked a very pertinent question.
If I want to be a Dhamma practitioner, I need to do all the good things and avoid, all the negative, words, conduct. Amongst the many things that I must avoid include being less judging. Being judging is a very natural human instinct.
For the longest time through many lives, we have “survived” and thrived through ignorance. Actually it is because we are ignorant. We, humans, operate very instinctively. Part of our instinct is to protect this person.
I call it number one.
[00:01:23] Cheryl: Number one.
[00:01:23] Sis Sylvia: You protect number one by trying to suss out the threat. And then you deal with threats by either beating them up, pushing them away, or you run away. Fight or flight. That has been the instinct of all living beings.
If we perceive that the threat can be handled by just fighting, the odds are you will fight. Why would you flee? Fighting requires churning of adrenaline. I said all these things about churning of adrenaline, learning to fight people and so on and so forth. It’s really because all of us are underpinned by certain instincts.
We call it (Lobha), Greed, (Dosa), Anger, Delusion, (Mohā). As long as we have (Mohā), Delusion, our instinct is, I see a threat, I will fight you. In my view, judging is part of threat assessment. If you “judge” someone to be no threat, helpful, can serve my interests, you’re still judging. If you perceive that way, you are inclined to lean closer to that person.
If you perceive that this is someone who can threaten your interests, cause you displeasure, pain, inconvenience, then you are judging. You will judge critically. You will say, I don’t like this person. And then in your mind, you cite all the negative “behavior” to justify your feelings.
But your feelings are all about what you perceive to be a threat.
You want to learn not to “judge” critically. You will judge, but you try to judge not critically in a way that triggers your anger, your greed. You want to assess in that way. In my mind, you will need to have a very steady, almost instinctive arising of mindfulness.
[00:03:30] Cheryl: Can you explain to me the difference between perceiving, judging, and judging critically?
[00:03:37] Sis Sylvia: Perceiving is natural because the word perceiving means I “recognize” something. I label, I know what it is. That is part of perception.
In Pali, we call it (Sañña). Any data processed through your sense bases, sitting on learned memory. So your sight, your hearing, somebody’s voice, sound, what I smell, taste, touch, and of course there is mind.
But any of these data process through your sense bases, you recognize, you know, you label it. That is perception. It is a function of the mind. That’s all. It enables you to recognize what’s there. You recognize it. Once you recognize, you must decide what to do with it. It’s a mechanical thing. When you recognize, because it sits on learned memory, the memory you had of whatever is pleasant. You recognize it, delight will arise.
[00:04:49] Cheryl: Naturally.
[00:04:51] Sis Sylvia: Naturally. It is natural because it literally sits on learned memory, otherwise you won’t recognize it.
Anyone, born after the smart devices come into play, you’re born after that, you live your world through that, you will not know how to use a dial phone. You look at a dial, the rotary phone, you won’t know what to do with it.
You will see numbers and you say, what is this about?
In fact, the other day I saw a little TikTok thing where the father was trying to tell the the daughter. “Use it. Call this number.”
The daughter doesn’t know, she doesn’t recognize it.
In her memory, there isn’t such a device. If you had not had an experience with something, you won’t recognize it? In your perception, there’s nothing there. Now that is perception. In the perception, there will be feelings, feelings and perception come together.
In the arising, the perception you recognize, then there is a strong feeling, strong pleasant, strong painful, unpleasant. If it’s neutral, you will not remember, but if it’s strong pleasant or strong painful, you will remember, and then you will store it as good or bad, desirable, not desirable.
I want more of this. Or I don’t want that. All this will come with it. So when you look at something, immediately, instinctively, undesirable, I don’t like it, this must go away. Then you’re judging critically. That’s when you’re critical.
When you are “judging”, “assessing”, is this to my benefit or not? How does this help me or not? Or is it going to be harmful? That instinct is natural. You want this instinct to stop or halt or not be so quick. You need to have mindfulness. The mindfulness is not about outside. It’s about inside.
Mindful of your feeling, mindful of how your mind leaps to conclusion, mindful of how your mind wants to make decision, wants to react, mindful of that part, not mindful of what is out there. I’m mindfully looking at this person walking. No, no, it’s not that. It’s mindfully looking at your mind and your feeling and your commentary on what’s going on out there.
Stop being critical, stop” judging” negatively with anger. You have to watch your feeling, you have to see that it is detached and so it is neutral. The feeling is neutral. There is no arising of strong feelings. You just watch it.
You’re mindfully watching how the feeling stays neutral. If there is an arising of unpleasant, you don’t go look at the object out there. You look at the feeling and look at perception. Why is it unpleasant? If you can, because you’re mindful, you will switch it to wholesome, to compassion.
This is changing your own narratives because when you see something unpleasant, the instinct is to judge harshly, to say, this fellow is not nice. He’s being mean. He’s being cruel.
Your anger will engage because fight or flight. It is a human instinct, but you don’t want that to happen. You want to be of help, you have to change the narrative into something positive. Mindfulness enables you to turn it into something positive, more constructive. You will say to yourself, “This person has a bad day. This person is in a lot of pain. I don’t want to add to his pain. I engage him, there will be pain all around. Anger all around. I don’t want to do that.” One way of talking is using mindfulness.
You can use any of the wholesome mental states, but you must convert it. You must convert to a wholesome mental state. You can convert using patience, Metta, faith.
The Buddha’s Dhamma says to always extend friendliness, to not give in to this anger and agitation. The Buddha remind us that we will live and die. Everything is impermanent. Mortality is real. So when you have this kind of reflection, you are able to remind yourself, keep cool, keep detached, don’t get engaged.
Mortality is very powerful and this one is using wisdom and faith. Why this is wisdom and faith?
If I believe in the Dhamma, I want to call myself his disciple. I totally say I am his disciple.
If you want your teacher to be proud of you, you cannot just give in to your craziness. Your teacher will be proud of you if he knows that you have tried your best to practice in accordance with his Dhamma. His Dhamma says avoid evil, do good, purify mind.
Then you say, okay, I must purify my mind. I will not react. That is through faith.
Through wisdom, the teacher says that you need to keep reflecting on mortality, impermanence. I will grow old, I will fall sick, I will die, and I will be separated from the people I love. The only thing I bring along is my Kamma.
Your daily reflection will change, it will start to shift your instinct.
[00:10:27] Sis Sylvia: Think about yourself having been diagnosed with end stage cancer.
If you’re in that state, you think you’ll be petty? You think you’ll fight back?
[00:10:36] Cheryl: No, because I could die any moment.
[00:10:39] Sis Sylvia: You will die any moment. The Buddha himself said, it’s very powerful. It will be of great benefit to you if you do this five reflections.
You will reflect on the five themes. You go to bed, you say thank you for one more day of life. If tomorrow I wake up, I will remember to honor the Buddha by doing good, by walking the Dhamma path. Therefore, leaning towards wholesome, leaning away from unwholesome.
It’s a reminder.
A human is wholesome. It’s because of wholesomeness that got you a human rebirth.
[00:11:17] Cheryl: But why are there so many humans who are unwholesome?
[00:11:20] Sis Sylvia: When they come into this world, they’re okay.
But over time, because of ignorance, they learn all the wrong things. They are told by the conditions around them that “You should stand up for your right.” Isn’t that what we’ve been told?
“You do not become a softy because people will bully you.” Isn’t that what we are told? Some of us will be taught, if people push you, you must push back.
You have wrong teaching around you, perpetuated by people who care for you, unfortunately. Because they care for you, they say they don’t want to see you being bullied. So their advice to you is, “Stand up for your right. Fight back.”.
I am not saying you be a wimp. I’m saying you hold the mental states and not respond.
[00:12:16] Cheryl: Can I share an example on why I think that it’s very difficult. I see my parents getting very angry. Let’s say they have the tendency to want to fight back with the neighbor, a lot of anger, a lot of hatred because they believe that’s the way to win and be strong in life.
For me, the frustration would arise because my intention is to be helpful. But then whatever that I try to teach them, it goes way past their heads.
[00:12:41] Sis Sylvia: You don’t teach.
I am serious, you don’t teach.
[00:12:43] Cheryl: Is that loving them? You let them suffer?
[00:12:46] Sis Sylvia: You don’t try and share Dhamma when a person is not ready to hear, we don’t go around and try and get another to hear us.
When you try to get someone to change, you have wanting. Therefore you are in pain. The Four Noble Truths, when you have desires, you will have (Dukkha) suffering. If you have acceptance, you will experience the cessation of (Dukkha).
We suffer because we want them to change. You don’t have to want them to change. You just have to stand by your money in case you go to pay indemnity.
In order for character change to happen, you need five conditions. And this one not said by the Buddha. I just tell you the five conditions from worldly experience. But I’m sure the Buddha will approve.
[00:13:45] Sis Sylvia: Condition one, is you must have self awareness. You don’t think you have done anything wrong. Nothing is going to work. There must be a recognition there is a problem. You recognize it. Some people recognize it, don’t want to do anything. Finish. Game’s over.
You recognize there’s a problem. You want to fix that problem. There must be a will, a desire to fix the problem. You must know the steps to fixing the problem. Then you must put in effort to fix the problem. Imagine a case, where I have self awareness. I know there’s a problem. I want to go and fix it. But I’m very lazy. I also don’t know how to do it. Nothing happens.
If I say I got a problem, I want to go and fix it, I’m going to work very hard. But I have no self awareness. I don’t know what that problem is. I already know that I think I got a problem because people don’t like me. It must be a problem. But I don’t know what it is.
Self awareness, meaning you know what is your problem. You know what you must fix. Then you want to do something about it. You want to.
I got anger management issue. I go and sign up for anger management courses. They teach you the steps. Then you learn very hard. Then you try. And that’s some days you fumble and then you give up. So the will must come in.
What’s the fifth one?
I’d say there are five, right? The fifth one is you have someone to cheer you on.
That (Kalyāṇa-mitta).
Because humans are social creatures. They can be changed for the positive, beneficial, or they can be flipped the other way. If they’re very strong will, and they have very strong moral compass, you cannot shift them. But if their will is not very strong, not very strong moral compass, a bit flimsy, a bit scary and then it will shift.
If they didn’t think they’ve done anything wrong, game’s over. You try and change them. They are going to get angry with you. You might as well just sit down there and as I said, get your money ready in case you got to pay indemnity.
Then you say, well, then what can I do? How can I help? You help by walking the path and becoming a happier successful person.
[00:16:05] Cheryl: That is a long term thing though. Like how does it help the problem?
[00:16:09] Sis Sylvia: The immediate problem will take time to solve. Now let me explain why you must be the representative of the teaching.
At some point they will realize that they are in trouble. When that will happen depends on their own wisdom. Their own awakening. When they realize that they have a problem, they will look around for a solution. If you are successful, because our material base lay world applauds success.
If you are a lay person, you want to share the Dhamma.
But people around you say that you don’t have education or your education not very high, can’t really speak very well, you get people very confused by what you’re saying. But you’re actually not bad. You’re very wholesome. They might like you as a person. They ‘re not gonna learn from you. Especially if you perceive that you’re not very successful, they won’t want to learn from you because you’re a lay person.
If you’re a Sangha, what kind of teacher you want to follow?
[00:17:14] Cheryl: Enlightened teacher.
[00:17:16] Sis Sylvia: Enlightened teacher, because the definition of success is a calm, peaceful, serene, light hearted person.
He must have got it right. This one very good. Look at how calm he is. How light he walks. Oh, I like it. But he’s Sangha.
If you’re a layperson, you try to work hard to provide for your family and all, but people find out that you’re in debt half the time.
They will still label you as not very successful. Then you have to tell them to, avoid evil, do good. Avoid evil, do good. purify your mind, but who are you to tell me? You can’t even get your act together.
You can’t even get your life together.
[00:17:56] Cheryl: Element of respect towards a lay teacher is very important.
[00:18:02] Sis Sylvia:Respect is an extremely important condition for learning. I will learn from you if I respect you. I must respect you for various things.
One is for your knowledge. Two, I must believe that you choose to walk away from wealth and material success. Even as a lay teacher, you are not poor because you fail in your profession. You lead a simple life by choice. I’ll respect you.
Humans are very judging, unfortunately. We will use all kinds of benchmarks to gauge as proxy gauge to our calculation of whether or not so and so is worthy of me following them. I’m not saying I am like this. I’m just saying that humans think like that. The Buddha said, the three kinds of people in the world, right? The fully blind, the full sighted, and the one eyed.
What is blind? You are dismal failure in your material, secular lay life. You’re dismal failure, and spiritually you have nothing. You’re blind.
[00:19:17] Sis Sylvia: If you are a roaring success in your secular life. So materially you earn a lot, buy a house, buy a car, but spiritually you run on an empty tank. Buddha said is one eye.
What is fully sighted? Full sighted. Two eyes. You’re both successful in your material secular life and spiritually you are also doing good. That’s full sighted. So you stay in a lay life. It is okay to earn a good living, provide wealth for your family and have some of the trappings of a successfully lay life.
It’s perfectly okay. Just make sure that how you earn your living didn’t cause hurt and harm to another.
[00:20:08] Cheryl: I think there are a lot of one-sighted people at the workspace. What can we do to maintain our integrity and stay steadfast in our values in environments where even the dishonest behaviors are not only prevalent, but also encouraged?
[00:20:28] Sis Sylvia: One very wrong assumption is that, You have to break precepts, like you have to tell a lie, you have to compromise on your values and principles to secure your success.
I consider that a wrong assumption, totally wrong. Let me ask you this. You have a business deal with somebody. He makes you good money, but then you found out that he cheated you. You’re going to do business with him?
[00:21:02] Cheryl: Not anymore.
[00:21:04] Sis Sylvia: Not anymore, right? The odds are a lot of people would like, I find out you cheat. I’m not going near you. And you’re going to tell people that there will be someone who will like make sure that he is caught.
Now let’s say he didn’t cheat you. But you found out that he’s a womanizer or she is unfaithful in marriage. There will be a part of you that says, he hasn’t done me any wrong, but I really don’t trust him now. So that will affect his business, right? Social standing. He’s a doctor, a lawyer, a professional.
He either siphoned some money. Or worst, all he did was caught with drunk driving, then he flashed all over the newspaper. Can you imagine how all of these is going to end up in the social media, into the newspaper, everybody having a view.
Your reputation as an honest man, you can earn less, but your principle, actually stands you in very good state.
[00:22:02] Cheryl: Why is it so common that everyone lies in the workplace?
[00:22:06] Sis Sylvia: Not common. People may or may not lie outright, but they will fudge the truth. They make it murky. The reason why people do that is either because it usually for an honest man to suddenly tell one lie, it has to do with fear. The fear can be very simple. This inconvenience, I don’t know how to deal with it, I don’t know what to say. Then it’s easier to make it vague. Because we fear, you’re afraid being scolded. You’re afraid of people telling you off, you fear losing the business.
That is fear. If you are honest, you treat people fairly and you are candid in the way that you explain things. People trust you. And once there is that trust, then you will find many doors open. Many people want to do business with you, want to engage you, want to deal with you because they know they can trust you.
Trust is extremely precious commodity. That’s the one that gets you that extra mile ahead. Not the conniving and maneuvering, playing games, fudging troops. Those are the things when you are found out, that’s it, you know. Your reputation is over. Even if it’s a very small thing, people will talk.
If you have a reputation of being fair minded, an honest broker, frank and sincere in your dealings, respectful and considerate.
He will suffer some losses, but he’s prepared to do that. This kind of people will have a very good standing. The Buddha will call it, in an assembly, he is respected. And it may be slow, but steadily, he will gain his ground. I’m very confident about this.
[00:24:11] Cheryl:Contemplate on the benefits of keeping to our five precepts, the long term benefits, in terms of this life and the next life as well.
And to really think about the drawbacks of not keeping your precepts and what happens like when your lies or your misconduct gets out in the open.
[00:24:30] Sis Sylvia: To me, five precepts is the lowest bar possible. Because five precepts in the traditional rendition of it, right, I undertake to observe, uphold, hold on to the precept of not taking life.
I undertake to observe precepts of not taking things not given. And this is all the, I will not do this wrong thing. To me as a very low bar, minimal bar, actually it should go into the flip side. I not only not take life, I will uphold, I will look after, I will protect, I will support life.
Not only it’s not about taking, it’s also about giving, being generous. It’s not just about sexual misconduct, abstaining from it, but it is to honour, respect relationship. Keeping your promises. It’s about speaking truth, being honest, in and out, in means inside here you are upright.
You’re telling yourself the truth because this one is very powerful because the practice is about seeing reality as it is, which means the mind needs to straight away the fuzziness, all those illusions and delusions of life. You’ve got to cut the natural instincts of the mind to overlook truth.
We always talk about reality as it is, but what does that mean? Seeing the impermanence of the aggregates, the (Dukkha), the suffering, seeing the (Anattā), soullessness or substance-lessness of the aggregates and the sense bases.
We go to bed at night, assuming we will wake up tomorrow. Correct.
[00:26:31] Cheryl: Yes.
[00:26:32] Sis Sylvia: Who goes to bed saying tomorrow I will be dead?
[00:26:33] Cheryl: Nobody.
[00:26:34] Sis Sylvia: One night. This is only one night which means you won’t die. Every night you go to bed, assuming you will live through, you wake up tomorrow and you live through the day.
You have this built in instinct that life is permanent. Hypothetically, you will die, but not yet. The built in instinct is you don’t see mortality. It’s a given and we are blind to it. Why is this so important? Why must you see mortality? To see mortality is to truly appreciate (Dukkha).
I already said, if you have been diagnosed with end stage cancer, you will live with death in your face, day in day out. And so therefore it is painful. Because we don’t live with death in our face because we live in delusion of immortality. Life. We can plan, we can hope, we can dream, no pain.
You take away hope, you take away dream, you take away plan. You’re only staring at death, pain. That’s why the Buddha said, if it is impermanent, is it painful or is it pleasant? You will say Painful, right? We live life blinded by dreams, blinded by hopes and ambitions. We’re blinded.
We don’t see death. You don’t see death, you can dream, you can hope, you can plan for your holiday next time, next month down the line, et cetera. Because of that, by thinking about the plan, you’re happy. So your happiness, your joy, your delight sits on plan, dreams, hopes. If death is in your face, where are the dreams and hopes and faith?
[00:28:27] Cheryl: And because we will lose everything. And because we will lose everything with death. There’s nothing that we can really bring along with us except our (Kamma) and merits.
[00:28:38] Sis Sylvia: Except your (Kamma) and your merits.
Two straightforward, simple thing, simple drivers the average person don’t think about it. They don’t see it. They live life oblivious to these two. So when I say see reality as it is. When the Buddha said there, right? (Yathā-bhūta-ñāṇa-dassana) is nothing to do with some mystical reality.
This is the reality.
[00:29:03] Cheryl: With that, we can end this episode. For our listeners, if you enjoy this episode, please give us a five stars rating, that will really help boost our viewership and listenership. We’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you and stay happy and wise.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen
Editor and transcriber of this episode:
Cheryl Cheah, Bernice Bay, Eng Yean Khai, Tan Si Jing
In the pursuit of a fulfilling life, understanding the intricate relationship between contentment and ambition is paramount. From young, we’re conditioned by the unforgiving expectations of society to strive for the highest excellence that permeates every aspect of life, so much so that 9/10 people in Singapore are stressed. On the other hand, contentment is often misconstrued as passive acceptance, the lazy man’s shortcut, and is seen as the devil’s advocate in any successful person’s book.
This mentality is deeply ingrained and for some, contentment should not even exist. I remember a conversation with a friend while hiking the Fort Canning Park and we were debating about ambition versus contentment and could not come to an agreement. Eventually, she ended with, “Why be content? We only have one life, why settle for the present when there could be so much more the world could offer? If I were content, I wouldn’t be doing anything useful.”
Perhaps we need to dig into the highly misunderstood term “contentment.”
According to Search Inside Yourself Founder, Tan Chade Meng, who shared on our podcast that contentment is not a behavior. It is a state of mind characterized by inner peace and gratitude, irrespective of external conditions. Meaning, contentment does not mean doing nothing. Doing nothing is a behavior. Instead, as a state of mind, whether you do a lot or whether you do nothing, you can be content. You have the same state of mind.
The bizarre thing is, Meng even observes that the most content people, such as enlightened teachers he knows (and he knows alot of cool people), are the busiest people! There’s a lot of active effort to serve the community, to relieve suffering of others.
Contentment holds the delicate balance of accepting this moment as being perfect, just as it is; And yet, seeing the potential to do a lot more, and then, having saint-like wisdom, to not grasp at the outcome, because this moment is perfect, just as it is! That is right contentment.
Sounds complicated eh?
But to understand this, contentment cannot be simply viewed as an intellectual exercise. But rather, let me take you to a moment where you’re feeling happy, content and peaceful, chilling on some beach with a nice book on hand, don’t you just have the natural tendency to smile at people, be nice, help others and wish for them to thrive?
When individuals feel content with their own lives, they are more likely to have a positive outlook and be emotionally stable, which allows them to focus on the needs of others. Contentment reduces feelings of envy, competition, and insecurity, which are often barriers to serving others selflessly. Additionally, content individuals are more likely to appreciate the value of giving back to their communities and derive fulfillment from contributing to the well-being of others. This sense of fulfillment reinforces their contentment, creating a positive feedback loop that motivates them to continue serving others.
So, imagine THAT state of mind being the default? Wouldn’t we have a much happier nation and less burnout individuals?
Now, how can we apply that to ambition? Can the two interlink? Ambition clearly can be a force that motivates action and change that brings fulfilment, however the problem is most of us in the rat race only learnt to pursue it as a relentless quest – without ever achieving a state of satisfaction.
We probably have been familiar with the anger, frustration and stress when things don’t go our way, and we cannot achieve our ambitions and when things suddenly don’t go our ways, the inability to accept anything other than our goals can even make one spiteful. All this for the sake of ambition. What if there is an alternative?
Meng shares this relationship between contentment and ambition that I think can be a key to happy success:
“If you have the right kind of contentment, then you’ll be successful. It grows your ambition. If you have the right type of ambition, you will grow your contentment. The right kind of contentment is contentment based on Samadhi. And the right kind of ambition is the ambition for all things wholesome. These two work together, to reinforce each other.”
To truly grasp the dynamic relationship between contentment and ambition, let’s examine real-world examples and we begin with the legend, Mr Siddharta Gautama, or better known as the Buddha.
As Buddha embarked on his quest for enlightenment, he sought contentment not in material possessions or worldly pursuits but in inner peace and spiritual fulfilment. Through meditation and introspection, he cultivated a profound sense of contentment with the present moment, transcending the fluctuations of desire and aversion. This inner contentment provided him with the clarity and resilience to navigate the challenges and obstacles on his path towards enlightenment.
At the same time, Buddha was driven by a profound ambition to alleviate the suffering of all sentient beings. His ambition was not rooted in personal gain or glory but in a genuine desire to understand the nature of suffering and to offer a path to liberation. This ambition fuelled his tireless efforts to attain enlightenment and to share his teachings with others, setting up the fourfold monastics despite facing numerous obstacles and even enemies along the way.
Therefore, while the Buddha was undeniably ambitious in his quest for enlightenment and the alleviation of suffering, his ambition was grounded in a deep sense of contentment with the present moment and a profound understanding of the nature of reality. His profound understanding of the present moment enabled him to pursue his ambitious goal of enlightenment with unwavering determination and compassion, ultimately benefiting countless beings through his teachings and example.
Fast forward 2500 years later, this book “Good To Great” explores the traits of exceptional leaders and organisations, focusing on the concept of Level 5 Leadership. These class of exceptional leaders possess great ambition coupled with personal humility, aspiring for the greater good rather than personal glory. They’re not ambitious for their own glory, they’re ambitious to do something big for this organisation, for the world, and so on, whatever is greater than themselves.The book highlights that Level 5 Leaders are more effective precisely because their genuine dedication to a larger purpose inspires others to follow them willingly.
We don’t have to be the Buddha or Level 5 Leaders (YET!), but we can take a leaf out of their book on how to define our ambitions. Instead of pursuing goals solely for personal gain or recognition, we can aspire to make meaningful contributions to our communities, organisation, or the world at large. Sure, it’s ok to want to become a CEO or a billionaire, but take a step deeper to understand why and what it means to your values and motivations to achieve them. By defining our ambitions in alignment with a greater purpose and appreciating the present moment with contentment, we can contribute meaningfully to our communities and the world at large.
For me personally, simplicity defines ambition. I want to earn enough to be able to contribute significant time and money to causes that I find are inspirational, and do great work in lifting people up and enriching them spiritually, psychologically and mentally! Contentment fuels this ambition by recognising the perfection of the present moment, appreciating the joys of doing what I can with what I have, and building momentum, one step at a time. And while I know the road ahead has a huge potential, success is already a flavour tasted right now, regardless of how much more there is to do.
What about you? How does contentment fuel your ambition?
After the death of her first love, all Cynthia wanted was for someone to take away all the hurt and pain. What she realized, though, as she sat on her floor surrounded by tissues, was that she was going to have to find a way to do it for herself. Through this search, she found that communication was key. If she wanted to change the way she lived in the world she would have to change how she interacted with it, which meant changing how she talked with others and herself.
When she learned the elements of Right Speech in Buddhism she knew she’d found her way out of suffering, yet she had no idea how actually to put the guidelines into practice, and so began her lifestyle experiment. And soon, the Kane Intentional Communication Practice was born. This practice has now been taught to more than 60k people and is changing marriages, work environments, family dynamics, friendships – lives. She also shares her work in her books:
Scroll down to redeem the free course “Communicate with Confidence” by Cynthia Kane.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Kai Xin: Welcome to another episode of the Handful Of Leaves podcast, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
Today, we’re really happy to have Cynthia Kane with us, an author of many books, one of them is “How to Communicate Like A Buddhist” and we are gonna talk about a topic that is quite interesting. It’s about how you argue like a Buddhist. I guess as Buddhists we don’t really think of arguing, but in life sometimes we just don’t see eye to eye with people. So it is quite inevitable that we have to resolve certain conflicts. And I know Cynthia, you have done a lot of great work connecting to the heart with people about how they can show up better in life, in different aspects, in order to really succeed and to live life a lot happier.
So perhaps we can start off with you introducing to our audience, how did you get into this line of work in communications.
[00:00:53] Cynthia: Well, thank you so much for having me here. I’m happy to spend this time with you. So, I got into this work because when I was younger, I thought I really wanted to grow up and help people communicate in a kind, honest and helpful way. I didn’t even know that it was a possible thing.
I used to be very passive-aggressive, very judgmental and very reactionary. Everything for me was either the best possible scenario or the worst possible scenario, and silence was really difficult for me to be in.
I liked to fill the space and just expressing myself was really, really difficult. I had a tendency to dance around certain topics as opposed to feeling confident enough, really to express myself clearly. So I didn’t realize though that the way that I was communicating or interacting was creating a lot of the doubt, fear and worry that I had.
So, Albert Einstein said, one of the most important questions you can ask yourself is — Is the world a friendly place? And I feel like whether I knew it or not, I didn’t actually feel that the world was a friendly place. And I had been with my first love for about seven and a half years. And we had decided to go our separate directions and we thought that the universe would bring us back together. And it did bring us back together four years later. And we met and we had a great conversation about what didn’t really work in our relationship. And one of the biggest pieces was communication.
And we decided we wanted to try and be in each other’s lives again. And then four months later, he passed away unexpectedly. And my whole world at that moment just went blank. I was just completely empty. I often liken it to just being like a blank canvas. It was like everything that was there before was just washed away.
And it was then that I realized that nobody could help me at that moment. Everybody was so lovely and kind and supportive, but it was just me alone, and I felt like if I was going to figure out how to be here and enjoy my life here, or time here, it was my responsibility. And so that’s when I went on the search to figure out how to enjoy being here and what I was finding with the seminars I was going to and the books that I was reading and the courses I was taking and everything was that communication was a big part of it, but I wasn’t actually learning how to communicate differently.
And a friend of mine introduced me to a writing and meditation workshop at the Shambala Institute in New York. At that point, I didn’t really know much about Buddhism. I had never meditated before and I was trying everything. When I went that weekend, it completely shifted everything for me. So that’s where I learned the elements of Right Speech in Buddhism, which the way I teach it is, to tell the truth, don’t exaggerate. Use helpful language and don’t gossip. And when I learned those plus meditation, it was my way out. Like I knew that this was how I was going to be able to move myself out of this place of suffering.
So with meditation, for me, the big piece was that it was the first time I was really allowing myself to be myself in this moment, right? To feel all the anger and the fear and the overwhelm, and at the same time hold space for such beauty in life. And it was just like an amazing experience to not judge myself through all of it.
And then with the elements of right speech, I was like, this is it. Because if I wanna change the way that I’m interacting with the world, I have to change the way I interact with the people within it. But then to really be able to change the way that I interact with people, I have to change how I interact with myself.
Then I woke up the next day, ‘This is lovely, but how do I do this?’. And then it became a practice for me. It became like a lifestyle experiment to practice communicating differently, and this is really how this all came to be.
I started communicating differently with myself. It shifted the way that I communicated with others. I started writing about it, wrote how to communicate like a Buddhist, and then started teaching about it. So the shifts that were happening in my life in terms of being able to express myself more clearly and consciously, to have more open relationships where I could actually be honest for the first time and not necessarily fear the other person’s reaction, being able to find love again. I mean, all these things were happening as a result of living each day with this practice. And then it started kind of rippling out and other people were being affected by it too. Then I started courses and training and all of that.
And so that’s really how I got here to this moment with you. So it’s been pretty wild.
[00:06:00] Kai Xin: Thanks for sharing your journey. You turned a negative circumstance into something so beautiful right now helping people. I’m so happy for you.
You mentioned something about how you communicate with yourself and how to communicate differently. Could you share some examples of the before and after? How did it shift?
[00:06:20] Cynthia: This is a very simple example, but before, I could drop a piece of paper on the ground or I could open the refrigerator and something would fall out, or I would be pouring some tea and water would splash over to the side and my reaction would be, you’re so stupid. Like, why did you do this? Or I can’t believe you did this. Now you’re gonna have to like go get paper towels. It’s gonna take you so much time and you have other things that you wanna be doing. It was just this, this voice that was just constantly upset at myself or judging myself for every little thing.
Whereas now, I can drop something and it’s just like, oh, I dropped something on the floor. It’s not good. It’s not bad. I’m not a bad person for it.
[00:07:05] Kai Xin: It’s just what it is.
[00:07:06] Cynthia: It’s just what it is. And it’s really understanding the idea of allowing things to be as they are, without judgment.
So, being really honest with ourselves and kind and helpful as opposed to where we usually go, which is not very kind and hurtful, and most of the way we talk to ourselves is an assumption, right? We don’t know a lot of the things that we worry about or fear. And a lot of the way that most people that we’ve worked with talk to themselves has to do with the things that they don’t know.
And so if you start to filter it through like, well, do you know this is true? It changes how you connect with yourself.
[00:07:52] Cheryl: Just really curious. Have you ever wondered where that voice of criticism comes from?
[00:07:58] Cynthia: I believe that the voice comes from past experiences that we have.
Other times where people have maybe labelled us as certain things when we’re young, whether people realize it or not. If somebody is like you’re shy or, you could be better at math, these are all things that we absorb. So I really believe it’s past experiences and it’s also absorbing the models that we see around us.
Because when it comes to communication, we’re never taught how to communicate right? Especially to ourselves. And so we really absorb and learn from our parents, our siblings, our partners, our friends, and our teachers. Also, I feel a sense of lack or scarcity.
The idea is that there are not enough things to go around. And so a lot of the way we talk to ourselves is like, I don’t have enough time to do this, or, you know, I’ll never be able to, you know, [insert anything there]. And all that comes from just this feeling that there’s not enough when really we know that there’s plenty.
[00:09:09] Kai Xin: So it kind of feels like you first need to solve your internal conflict in order to then be able to solve the external ones.
[00:09:17] Cynthia: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Kai Xin: Could you give some examples of common communication patterns that would cause a conflict between you and your partner, or you and your loved ones?
[00:09:27] Cynthia: I think some conflict is when you have something you want to ask for that’s difficult. Like with affection. If you are interested in asking for more affection in your relationship, but you are scared to do that, the fear of the other person’s reaction is what holds us back from asking for what we want or expressing ourselves.
And so what ends up happening is that because we fear the other person’s reaction, we hold everything in. Then at some point, we all have a default reaction. So one person might start getting passive-aggressive, another person might start lashing out, another person might start just, you know, lying or dismissing the other.
So, the less we express ourselves, the more we fall into these habits of communicating that aren’t helpful and that are hurtful. So one of the big pieces is really just holding everything in because we’re scared of what the other person is going to say. And really the work is, to start to practice in those moments, being able to allow the other person to have whatever reaction. And seeing like, can we just celebrate reaction in general? Whether good or bad, can we hold space for it? And then can we learn how to navigate it?
And again, it’s internal what’s happening in those moments. You are talking to yourself differently in those moments so that you can actually express yourself differently.
So I think the other piece too, is then you have the opposite of that where some people in relationships are very direct and very honest, and people will use that phrase while I’m just being honest, right? Yeah. But it’s like, yes, you can be honest, but it might not be kind, it might not be helpful and it might not be necessary.
So if you have honesty without compassion it can hurt. But if there’s compassion there, it’s easier for the other person to hear. And so I think then the opposite of that, where in partnerships you have one person who may be too direct, and then so the other partner just shuts down completely.
So then how does the one who is more expressive learn in some situations to shift the way that they’re communicating so that they can create a more accessible space or a more open space? So I think those are the two most common patterns that are seen.
One has a difficult time expressing themselves, and then another has an easier time expressing themselves, but not in a way that they’re actually heard.
Does that make sense?
[00:12:08] Kai Xin: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. And it ties back to the sutta as well, the scripture on Right Speech (AN 5.198 Vācāsutta – Five factors of good speech). I guess besides being honest, and compassionate, it’s also very important to find the right time to do it. Whether people actually have the headspace to listen to what you want to say.
[00:12:24] Cynthia: Yeah. And I think that’s the other piece that happens too. A lot of times people will bring up really important conversations at the wrong time. Like when they see somebody else doing something, they’re being active and the other person wants to have a serious conversation, but the other person’s not gonna be able to respond at that moment.
Often when both people are heated and they both react, that’s also not the time to try to make things better often. At that moment it really is about how can I just calm this situation so that then we can maybe have a conversation at another point.
So, I think that that’s a really great point, and it has a lot to do with being available, to be present.
[00:13:08] Cheryl: Can I just dive a little bit deeper here? Because for me, I think it’s a very difficult balancing act to be direct, state what you want, state your boundaries in certain cases and be compassionate. Could you share an example of how we could perhaps soften the blow by providing feedback or asking for boundaries?
[00:13:28] Cynthia: I love that you used the word soften because that’s actually the practice itself of being in those difficult interactions to be able to express yourself in a compassionate way. But the actual work is to meet the person where they are at.
And see if you can move the conversation forward. So you know, if you are trying to say that, you would really like for the other person to take the trash out, let’s just say like a small example, right? You’re really going to them and saying, you know when you don’t take the trash out, I feel…
It’s based on feeling. So I feel frustrated, I feel confused, I feel misunderstood. And we all have two core feelings, which almost everything comes down to. So, it doesn’t matter the scenario, you will likely feel those two core feelings. My core feelings are stupid and invisible.
So with most things, like if there is an interaction that’s difficult, I’m feeling stupid or I’m feeling invisible, and when we understand that feeling, then we can actually express ourselves and speak because then we can say, you know, “When you don’t take the trash out, I feel invisible. You know, I know that that’s not your intention. Next week could we make it so that Monday and Wednesday you take the trash out and then Tuesday and Friday I take the trash out?” And then the other person will say, “Yes, I can do that.” And you’re like, “Great!” Or they can say, “No, I can’t do that.” And then you have the information to then decide, “Can I be okay with this?”
Like really, honestly okay with it to the point where it’s not something I talk to other people about, it’s not something I feel frustrated about, but it’s something that I can truly let go of and be like, okay, they just can’t commit to that right now and I’m okay with that.
My husband does not like to make the bed when we first started seeing each other. And I really like to have the bed made, so I asked him in the same way, “When you don’t make the bed, I feel invisible. Could you make the bed at least twice a week?” To which he responded at that time, “I’m not able to do that.”
And I was like, okay. So I was aware that he was not going to do it.
So I can either take that and be okay. Or maybe that’s a deal breaker for me, or maybe that’s something that I need to have another conversation about. But what’s also very interesting is that now he does.
[00:16:05] Cheryl: So what’s the secret there? What made him change from ‘no’ to ‘yes’?
[00:16:11] Cynthia: I think what he realized was that it was important to me. And I think that even though he said he wasn’t able to do it, I think he saw that for me, it was something that was important and I guess that’s why he chose to change. I mean, I don’t know why, but I’m happy that it happened.
[00:16:28] Cheryl: It seems that you were able to communicate the underlying need for the bit to be tidy, so it becomes something that’s more than just a chore, but more of like responding to your need.
Something that stood out to me here was how your request was very specific. You mentioned the frequency, how many times a week and the specific action that your partner could do. So I thought that was pretty cool and I am, again, very curious. How do you get to know your two core emotions?
[00:16:55] Cynthia: So to understand your two core emotions, if you think back on the last conversations or interactions you’ve had that have been difficult for you, where you went to your default reaction. So default reactions being like we can shut down, we can lash out, get passive-aggressive, dodge or walk away. We all have one that’s dominant and then it kind of dominoes the rest.
So if you think of an instance where you had that, then the idea is to sit and then think about what was I really feeling in that moment. This is what happened. What happened was he didn’t take the trash out, but what was truly happening like this seed, right? Was I feeling stupid? Most people will go to feeling angry or frustrated and yes, those are emotions. Though they’re very superficial and anybody can feel those things. And what you are really looking for is you, Cheryl, like, what is yours that’s just like specific to you.
And it takes a while. It might not be something that you can just pinpoint now. But what you’ll notice is that anytime you have a difficult interaction, it’s the same, like it’s the same feeling that’s there.
[00:18:12] Cheryl: Kai Xin any idea? What are your two core feelings?
[00:18:16] Kai Xin: It’s an interesting question. So I’m trying to recount some of the difficult conversations I have with people and the words that I repeatedly mentioned as to why I’m feeling upset. I think it boils down to feeling accused. So every time I feel accused, I would feel really triggered and really hurt by it.
[00:18:37] Cynthia: So when you’re in a conversation if you were to say, ‘I feel accused’, the other person may be distracted by that word. That word might prevent them from listening. So if you think underneath that, what is the feeling of feeling accused? As you feel at fault, you feel guilty, you feel …
[00:19:01] Kai Xin: not really so much of guilt. But just misunderstood.
[00:19:05] Cynthia: Well, so misunderstood is like, that’s a good one. Cause I think that if you look back at your other interactions, it could be there as well.
[00:19:14] Kai Xin: So you’re saying that the words that we choose to express our emotions and let the other party know is also very important because it affects the way that they receive it.
[00:19:23] Cynthia: A hundred percent yes.
[00:19:24] Kai Xin: Because accused is a very strong word. And then they might jump to a conclusion or assumption that …
[00:19:29] Cheryl: they are the ones who are accused. Yeah.
[00:19:31] Cynthia: Yeah. So you know, in like meditation when there’s like that moment where you get distracted and then you come back. So in conversation, it’s the same thing.
Sometimes we use language that distracts, that takes people out of what we want them to be paying attention to. And especially in a difficult interaction when you are expressing something to somebody and asking for them to potentially change or asking for a situation to be different. It’s important to use language that is going to keep them present instead of getting them going in their self-talk. The self-talk of like, I can’t believe this person thinks that. Why in the world would she say that to me?
And so the core feelings, when you have them, like the misunderstood piece, let’s just say, when you share that, that feels very different, right? The other person can be able to see that an action that they’ve done is affecting you. And most people care for each other. And so when they hear that something that they’re doing is affecting a person that they care for, the want is to be helpful. Because that’s our true nature. Our true nature is to be helpful.
[00:20:49] Kai Xin: And how do you argue, well, such that it doesn’t come across as being too demanding? Because just now you mentioned about making the bed. It can seem like it’s just a very small thing. Why are you throwing a big fuzz out of it? What if people can’t see the connection between how a small task actually linked to a deeper sense of wanting to be seen, wanting to, in your case to not feel invisible?
[00:21:15] Cynthia: Yeah. So I think it has to do again with, you come to, let’s say the task and it doesn’t come out as, can you, can you make the bed? this has been something that bothers me and annoys me. Could you make the bed? That’s very different than if you’re having more of a conversation and you’re like, oh, hey, I’ve been thinking about it. And you know, when you don’t make the bed, I feel really invisible. I know that’s not your intention, but the next time, would you be able to commit to making the bed on Mondays and Wednesdays?
And it’s really that same phrasing over and over that you’re using because the focus isn’t on the other person. Because what we end up starting to see as we start to practice more around this type of communication, which is really to help ourselves and others suffer less, is that most of the work is us figuring out what it is that we want, what it is that we need, and the focus is more on us than it is on the other person.
So it’s not on something that they did wrong, but it’s on something that we want and need to feel better and to thrive and for this relationship to grow and for this relationship to feel connected. And so all of that can be talked to. All of that can be said. It’s like, when you make the bed, I just wanna run over there, give you a hug and a kiss and be like, gosh, that feels so good. You just filled my bucket up to a hundred percent. What can I do to fill up your bucket a hundred percent?
You turn something that could become an argument into something that’s like, when you do this, this is, this is the feeling it gives me and I love when I feel that way and I want that to be the way that you feel as well, instead of where we often go, which is more towards — what’s not happening, what should be happening, what we wish would be. It’s a different trajectory. Does that answer the question?
[00:23:12] Kai Xin: Yeah. Kind of. So it’s really about emphasizing why it matters to you, so you help them see the picture. I’m just wondering, what if the response or the reaction is not what we desire?
[00:23:25] Cynthia: I mean, most people want it to go well all the time, right? And that would be lovely if it did, but we cannot control another person. We can’t control their reactions. So, it’s practising detachment from the other person’s reactions. Being able to see them as separate from you so that you can hold space for them. So, in the moment, you express something and they are like, no, I can’t do that, or, that’s ridiculous, or I can’t even believe you’re asking me that. You are there and you’re not hooked into the language, but you’re just like, oh, I see this person that I care for, and they’re feeling uncomfortable right now. Like they’re suffering right now. They’re feeling hurt. They’ve moved into their default reaction because they’re feeling attacked by what I’m saying.
You witness it, you observe it, and you let them have it. And then when they’re finished with their reaction, you either come back to your original question that you were asking or you can connect in a different way, being able to say, I see that what I’ve said hurt you, or it feels to me that you’re upset in some way. I’d love to actually have a conversation about it, how did I say it that was affecting you. And so it opens up a dialogue.
But the practice in that moment is to be able to allow somebody to have a reaction. We want it to be good, we want the outcome to be what we want it to be, and also knowing that if it’s not, we can navigate it. If it’s not, it doesn’t mean that our value changes.
If it’s not, it doesn’t mean that the relationship is bad or it’s doomed or anything like that. It simply means that, this person is feeling something, and I wanna honour it so that we can then come together around it.
[00:25:19] Kai Xin: That’s really beautiful. So it’s holding space for either reactions without the expectation that it always has to be right.
It’s kind of like sitting in meditation. Having the expectation that we need to be peaceful, but it’s about being there, just watching the emotions.
[00:25:34] Cynthia: Right.
[00:25:35] Cheryl: But I think it’s so hard though. I feel like it’s so hard because especially when you’re in a relationship, everything is intertwined. So it’s really hard to kind of detach yourself from the person and detach your expectations from the person as well.
[00:25:49] Cynthia: Yeah. It’s more like moving into the space of can you acknowledge and not empathize? It is the same as meditation, right? Like, can you see and witness what’s happening without getting hooked on what’s happening? And it’s not that you are not listening. But it is the idea that you are caring for yourself in that moment and holding space for the other person because your work is really to keep the integrity of the conversation.
So if you start to see that the conversation is moving in a hurtful direction, you then practice understanding, how can I get this back to being helpful? And that can look a lot of different ways in the moment and one of them is really just being able to be compassionate. So, like we sit along the suffering of someone else. If we’re in a difficult reaction and the other person is reacting because they are suffering in some way and we’re angry at them for that, or we’re just mad that it’s happening. We’re not actually sitting next to them in that space. We’re punishing them for that. And ourselves.
[00:26:56] Cheryl: So powerful. And I guess an extension of that is how do we communicate when we have hurt others? So when we hurt other people, because nobody’s perfect, and sometimes tempers are bound to arise, how do we actually repair and reconnect again, in a way that is not just a superficial plaster on the wound, but really piecing things back and making sure the trust is rebuilt again.
[00:27:23] Cynthia:So I think the first thing that happens if we’ve hurt someone is self-forgiveness. To feel the sadness and to feel the frustration at ourselves and the anger at ourselves and to love ourselves through that. So often we wanna push those feelings away. Ignore it. And it’s hard to sit with something that we’ve done that was hurtful. And to just acknowledge our role within it.
When we do get to the place where we can say yes, and you really own the truth of it, you’re really honest about it, there is a sense of freedom that comes with that. The sensation of the pain diminishes a little bit when we can just say, this is something that I’ve done and, I forgive myself for it. Or just the phrasing of — even though this happened, I deeply and completely love and accept myself, I’m still a good person.
And then once we’ve gotten to the place where we’re aware of what we’ve done and we understand it in the sense that maybe this person said this and then I felt this, or it brought me back to this experience that I had in the past that made me nervous that this was going to happen again. And so this is what I did. We start to bring awareness to the event itself. And then from there, then we can go to the other person and let them know what it is that we have figured out. It’s not just like, “I’m sorry for what happened”. It’s, “I’ve thought about it and I understand that I was wrong”, or, “I understand that the way that I expressed that to you wasn’t helpful. It was hurtful. I was being judgemental. I was acting from a place of better than and I just want you to know that I’m aware of it. I am sorry and I commit to doing better.”
It’s the idea that there’s like a commitment to not repeating. But I think the repair really comes more from the understanding of where the other person is, why they’re there, why they’re in that space, owning the mistake that you potentially made, and just seeing if there’s a way to move forward from it.
And it can happen at any time. It doesn’t have to be something that just happened either. I’ve worked with people who have had wounds for years and have not addressed or gone back to it. It’s completely overtaken them, and then they’re able to go back and have those conversations, especially in like family dynamics. There can be a lot of …
[00:30:02] Cheryl: buttons that can be pressed.
[00:30:04] Cynthia: Yeah. A lot of buttons. And so being able to go back to those moments, even if they happened years ago and, and talked to them without judgment or without blame. Just for what it is, this is what happened and, I assume responsibility for X, Y, Z and yeah.
[00:30:26] Cheryl: I think it’s very interesting that the first step that you shared was to understand it within yourself and to really process it within oneself. I was semi-expecting you to say, okay, this is the framework to apologize, you know, this is what you should say, and then how it would be a perfect apology.
So I thought it was very interesting and it does make the apology so much more meaningful and sincere as well. I guess sometimes even once you go through that process, you realize that you do not know how to not hurt that person. Sometimes, it is for you to really ask your partner, “how can I not hurt you again?”, or, “How can I love you better?”
[00:31:06] Cynthia: Yeah, that’s so beautiful. Yeah, it’s true. A lot of people will be like, well, I just wanna say the right thing, so what’s the right thing to say? Right? Give me scripts. This is really about understanding that you already have within you the language that is kind, honest, and helpful. It’s just a matter of slowing down, owning our own suffering in the moment, and seeing what’s inside for us to be able to express.
So much up to this point, it does get pushed down. There are a lot of layers that are on top of that have to breathe and open so that we can access what is it that we truly want in this moment in terms of connection.
[00:31:48] Cheryl: It becomes very clear from the course of this conversation that having good communication with others and subsequently good relationship with others, is a soft skill in a way, but it’s also very much dependent on how much you have a good relationship with yourself and build that awareness within with compassion and love.
I know Kai Xin is probably giving me daggers because of the timing, but I have questions, Cynthia, that I really need to ask you.
[00:32:11] Kai Xin: I feel accused when you say that. *joking*
[00:32:17] Cheryl: I’m sorry *laughs*
[00:32:18] Kai Xin: No, go ahead.
[00:32:20] Cheryl: *laughs* Yeah, but so far we have been talking about, you know, taking the trash out about the bed being tidy, but how do we communicate when it comes to bigger issues like how I want to raise my child, what relationship my child should be taking, or how much time I want to spend with you, or whether I want to introduce you to my parents. So these are bigger questions and will potentially make it or break it for a lot of relationships. So how do you suggest we navigate those?
[00:32:48] Cynthia: So with bigger conversations, I think the biggest piece is to slow down, to really slow down the conversation itself. It’s really about kind of preparing for them beforehand in terms of understanding what is the outcome that you’re looking for from this conversation and understanding how you want the other person to feel in this conversation. How do you want to feel in this conversation? Visualizing how you want the interaction to go is very helpful. Then, you show up with the guidelines, which is really to connect in a kind, honest, and helpful way.
The practice is slowing down. Owning your own suffering in the moment. If you’re talking and your partner says something, feel the sensation in the body because that’s the first cue to everything, the sensation that happens. So you feel the sensation and you’re like, oh, wow, okay. I’m feeling really heated right now. I know that I’m about to yell at him or her. I know that I’m about to get really defensive. Then you come out and you start talking to yourself differently.
And you’re like, okay, we’re feeling misunderstood right now. We’re feeling invisible right now. We’re feeling stupid. It’s okay. We’ve got this. We’re okay. And then we take a big deep breath and we realize, okay, what are my hands doing? What are my feet doing? What’s my belly doing? Then I can look at the person in front of me, and then I can hold space for how they’re talking, right? Then when they’re done, then I can see what’s needed in this conversation. Then I can see, you know, I wanna be helpful, that’s my intention. So if I wanna be helpful, what is going to make this conversation easier?
I think that it’s understanding that each person has different ideas of what is potentially right or different beliefs. And it’s not about trying to win, it’s not about trying to convince. The way I see it, each person is holding something very, very important to them that they really wanna talk to and they really want another person to understand. And it’s not always about understanding exactly what the other person says, but it is about letting the other person say it so that you can hear it and then you can then choose the best way for you then to share your information.
So I think in more difficult conversations, it’s really understanding that so much of it is being able to have a conversation. The only way for us to have a conversation is if we are open to listening to ourselves and not shutting the other person down, and open to engaging with something we might not understand. When we become more curious, we ask more questions. It’s less about winning and convincing and more about clarity, finding clarity in these moments to come to a decision potentially together.
[00:35:58] Cheryl: And I think with curiosity and having the safe space there as well, it probably opens up to the needs that are important to the person. So not so much about whether the view is right or not but what the views mean to the person, the need for the identity that has shaped their lives.
[00:36:17] Cynthia: And I think it’s not even necessarily coming to a decision on something either. So with difficult conversations, I usually talk about three different pieces to a difficult conversation. Usually what we do is we do the first one or we do the third one.
The second conversation at another time is potentially asking for something to be different or, you know, in a bigger conversation, it might look like, would you think about potentially raising our children in both religions? Is that something that you could think about? Those types of questions.
The first one is sharing what’s bothering us, or what the issue is. You’re not doing anything else. You’re just having that one conversation where you’re sharing what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling and what’s coming up for you.
Then you move on to the third, which is making a decision.
So you’re slowing everything down. It’s not that you have one conversation, and that conversation is like the answer to the entire thing. You have like three separate conversations. You give air to it, you give breath to it, you give time to it. And most often where we go is we either share and then we get upset that the other person isn’t doing something different, right?
But we haven’t asked for anything to be different. And then the third, or we go straight to like, I’m making this decision and this is happening, and the other person might just be completely surprised because they have no idea that we were even feeling this way.
[00:37:49] Kai Xin: And they have no time to process as well to come to a decision. What if after the discussion, it’s still fuzzy? You can’t really move for. For example, how to raise a kid. You’re already married. So, unfortunately, if that’s a deal breaker, do you meet in the middle? Like how, how does it work?
[00:38:07] Cynthia: Yeah. You meet in the middle. In the sense that there are going to be some things that your partner does that you don’t agree with, and there’s gonna be things that you do that they don’t agree with, and the things that they are, have to be okay, like, okay for you. If they’re not, then that requires more thought and potentially another discussion. But usually, in those instances, one person will have to pull back on their judgment. They’ll have to start noticing when they’re judging, or they’ll have to start noticing when they’re thinking that they’re better than or they’re right and the other person’s wrong.
And the same thing, the other person then has to do the same. As long as the child is not in danger in any way. It is about coming together to see, you know, I am okay with this. I don’t absolutely love this, but I’m okay in these moments that it’s happening. I can allow it to happen. And the same has to be true on the other end too.
[00:39:09] Kai Xin:So it’s understanding what are the aspects that are negotiable, flexible, and what are some of the non-negotiables.
[00:39:17] Cynthia: Right, the non-negotiables. So I have two little kids and we had a lot of discussions before having kids. I was very clear, this is the way that I want to raise my kids. This is what I’m thinking, this is what I’m feeling right now. With understanding, it’s possible that when we have children, I’m gonna think completely differently. And I think it’s important though to have those types of conversations before and during. But I think if you can set it up before, it makes it a lot easier to understand kind of what the potential expectation is.
Cause what’s hard is we all come from different backgrounds and so I think that sometimes when we come together and we have children, it’s easy to just think like, this is the way it’s gonna be cause this is what it was for me. And then the other person’s like, well this is the way it’s gonna be cause this is what it was for me, or I want something different and I want something different. And we have to talk about it or else we just expect it to look a certain way and it doesn’t.
[00:40:14] Kai Xin: And, it might end up hurting the child.
[00:40:16] Cynthia: Yes, it does. Yeah. It makes it very confusing, right? And so that’s why it is important even if each person has kind of a different opinion on something, if you can find a way to come together to at least, it might not be a hundred percent what the other person wants, but it’s doable. It’s better for the child because then it’s consistent.
[00:40:36] Kai Xin: I do have one last question regarding how to end a difficult conversation. So let’s say it is about very deferring values and there’s no way to even meet halfway, then how do you move forward from there?
[00:40:55] Cynthia: So if there’s no way to meet halfway, you become really clear with yourself on one, is it okay for you to stay or not? If it is, it’s the same in the sense that you have to be a hundred percent honest with yourself that you can let it go because if you can’t, then it ends up coming out in your interactions, right? You end up blaming angry, judgmental, passive, aggressive, all the things. Then, it will just ruin the relationship in a lot of ways. So you have to be a hundred percent clear that you’re like, I’m okay with this. I go in this direction.
Or if you’re not okay with it, then you end up having a conversation which is around, you know, I’ve given this a lot of thought and I’m not able to meet in the middle, and it breaks my heart and this is the motions that I’m feeling and I also know that this is the right direction for me.
And then you hold space for the other person’s reaction because it’s really important that we take care of our own suffering first. And to know if we are going to put ourselves in a position to keep suffering. If we have that moment, that choice point moment, we get to say no. This isn’t the right path for me and to be able to share that.
And again, you feel that fear of what the other person’s reaction could be. And knowing that it’s okay, you just have to hold space for the reaction. It’s not saying that it doesn’t hurt, and it’s not saying that it’s easy, but it really is about being a hundred percent honest with yourself, helpful and kind right and necessary.
[00:42:35] Cheryl: And the choice point moment is not always very clear, like in neon light or something. It is always conflicting with like guilt. And is this the right choice? Am I just sabotaging myself?
[00:42:48] Cynthia: I think that most of the time when we ask ourselves those questions, really just taking that moment to sit, ask ourselves the question, listen for the answer, because we know often we know what the answer is, even though it’s hard.
[00:43:01] Kai Xin: Thank you. It’s been such a great conversation. I’ve learned so much and I am thinking, just a small ad hoc request, talking about holding space, would it be too much to ask if we were to have you just lead a one-minute guided meditation just to hold space for ourselves after listening to all of this?
[00:43:22] Cynthia: So you can go ahead and settle into your space and close your eyes, and we can take three long, slow, deep breaths, just inhaling fully through the nostrils and exhaling deeply.
Let the breathing return to its natural rhythm. There’s no need to force or control the breath. Just let it be natural.
You can bring your attention to the sounds around you, just noticing the silence or birds or wherever you are.
And if you feel comfortable, you can bring your hand to your heart centre just over your chest.
And silently say,
May I know love. May I know joy. May I know peace. May I be free from suffering. May I live with ease.
May I know love. May I know joy. May I know peace. May I be free from suffering. May I live with ease.
You can bring your hand back down and just put your attention on the breath, wherever you feel the breath most clearly in the body. So maybe at the nose or the abdomen and the belly, and let go of the breath. Just sit in stillness.
When you’re ready, you can start to circle the wrists, maybe roll the shoulders up back, circle the head.
Blink the eyes open. Just notice the shapes and colours around and come back.
[00:47:39] Cheryl: Thank you so much, Cynthia. That was wonderful.
When you’re jealous, it means you come from a place of lack. If you think, “I don’t have enough love, I don’t have enough wealth or I don’t have enough fame,” you need to have this mindset whereby, okay, you’re detached from the outcome of whatever it is, but then you’re still pursuing it. And you have to accept the fact that other people also deserve love, wealth and fame and all these beautiful things and successful things in life. And you’re okay with it, Knowing that if you keep sharing your gifts with the world, you’ll be able to find a way to kind of receive it, provided that you don’t block yourself from receiving it.
Kai Xin 00:40
Hey, friends, this is Kai Xin and you’re listening to the Handful Of Leaves Podcast where we bring you practical Buddha’s wisdom for a happier life. Is an abundance mindset, just another fad out of a self-help textbook? The mindset of abundance is typically associated with getting rich and attracting wealth, and it can seem pretty materialistic and driven by desires of wanting more, or that’s what I thought. But after speaking to Daylon, I realised that that couldn’t be further away from the truth.
Kai Xin 01:18
In this episode, Cheryl and I chat with Daylon to uncover what an abundance mindset is, and what it isn’t. This mindset embodies kindness, generosity, and sympathetic joy, which is very much aligned with the Buddha’s values. Daylon shared many personal stories that really put into perspective how we can practise the mindset of abundance in real life. Stay till the end, to hear his story about how he got out of a depressive period in his life when he felt stuck and only had $10 left in his bank account. We also explored how we can find opportunities and rise up even when we don’t feel enough, or don’t have enough, or sometimes, even just not believe we deserve more. Cheryl literally had a mindset shift during the recording, turning her from a skeptic to a believer. Now let’s dive right in!
Kai Xin 02:14
Hello, good to see you. Daylon. Hi. Hello. Today we’re going to talk about the topic of abundance. But before we get into that, can you just give our audience a quick introduction of yourself?
Daylon 02:28
I’m Daylon, I run an education company called Curious Core, and we specialise in helping mid-career professionals to transition into the future of user experience design and product management. We also do corporate training for companies like GIC as well as Maxis in the same view as well, we call them tech light skills. My interest is in education as well as in gaming, and I sometimes find myself reading that’s why we call our company curious core because I really very much enjoy the process of learning and growing. And that’s what our company is about.
Kai Xin 03:14
Nice, that makes two of us. And I think three of us. All of us are curious people. And we are going to have a lot of curious questions today because you were the one who suggested the topic of abundance. Could you share a little bit more about why this topic? And how has it shaped you to become who you are today?
Daylon 03:32
Yeah, I think this topic is really important in many hidden ways because when I help mid-career professionals to transition, we realise that it’s not just about their technical skills, it’s also about their self-confidence, and beliefs, whether they believe that they have embraced this new identity and whether they believe that they can make it in terms of that transition, and a lot of them do not have that belief, right, and they don’t actually see it. I do realise that mindset becomes a limiting factor in the transition process.
Daylon 04:14
In business, as well as in professional careers, we also see that cascading as well. When you have a business owner who does not believe that they deserve the success that they have or deserve the wealth that they have, then they will almost most easily lose that wealth as well without that mindset of abundance. Or they will gain it in a very difficult way. Whereby it’s very, very painful, you know, they break a lot of relationships as they are kind of gaining it. So I think is this such an important topic because it has changed and shaped my thinking and my life in so many ways, whereby I hope all listeners today will be able to leave the audio conversation with Insights and the ability to gain what they want in life with ease and grace.
Cheryl 05:05
To help us get a little bit more understanding of where we are right now, whether we have the abundance mindset, and how has it shown up in your life, we will be using a couple of icebreaker questions for all of us here to just see and you know, use as a ruler and see where we are. So the first question for all of us here: Do you constantly find yourself focusing on what you don’t have, instead of what you have?
Kai Xin 05:33
I used to always focus on what I don’t have, I guess living in a very competitive society. It starts from school, and like, why are my friends getting ahead of me? And why do I study so hard, but I still can’t get an A grade? So it feels very effortful and tiring. Over the years, with the help of Buddhist teachings, I have learnt to control what I can and don’t control what I can’t. And I think just shifting to the cup half full rather than empty philosophy. It’s been a journey. How about you Daylon?
Daylon 06:04
Yeah, I think that’s great. Because I also do tend to focus a lot on what I don’t have, especially when I’m younger, like I will see like, “Oh, my friend has this computer that can play all the computer games. And it’s like, all upgraded, and they have like the latest PlayStation.” I’ll compare that I don’t have the latest PlayStation and I also want to get the latest PlayStation. So it becomes like trying to acquire a lot of material possession. And even after acquiring it, sometimes I realised Oh, actually, it just feels joyful for a while. And after that, I don’t feel as good anymore. So these days, I try not to focus on what don’t have, I try to focus on what I have and be appreciative of it.
Cheryl 06:51
Yeah, I think that makes it, something common for the three of us. I also used to have this feeling of like, and it’s pervasive, it’s everywhere. From comparing who has more friends, you know, when you’re in secondary school and seeing the size of your cliques to now you know, what projects you’re doing at work, who has the coolest project? So I think what really changed for me was during COVID, where there’s literally very, very few things that we could control. And that was when I was forced to start thinking, What can we really control and what we can’t, and from there, help us to be a little bit saner as well and, and find some happiness.
Daylon 07:29
If you only focus on what you don’t have, you will never feel enough. Without that feeling of being enough, you always feel like there’s a sense of lack. And since we’re talking about an abundance mindset here, right? If you’re always and constantly in a state whereby you feel like you’re lacking, then if I put you in a country that has multiple opportunities and resources and wonderful infrastructure, you will still complain, you will still feel like there’s a lot of things that’s not enough. And I think that’s Singapore, by the way, right? Kind of known as a country full of complainers.
Kai Xin 08:11
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it also can dull our minds, it becomes so depressing. Like, that’s the only thing that we are thinking about, and it’s not very constructive, isn’t it? So just now we talk a lot about comparing these external aspects of our life, but it does manifest internally as feeling not good enough. And I do observe it is the core of a lot of problems. That sense of not being good enough. And perhaps today we can learn from you how to get past it.
Daylon 08:40
Sure, I’m sure we can learn from each other as well.
Cheryl 08:42
I just to link it a bit as well. Do you guys feel like you’re not good enough, like personally and how to evolve?
Daylon 08:52
I thought I didn’t have this problem. Initially, I thought I was always like, quite good at what I’m doing. And professionally as person, I’ve seen myself growing professionally as well like doing better than most of my peers quite early in my 20s. So I always thought like, hey, actually, I don’t feel inferior to other people in any way. But then I realised that there was still that thinking in other aspects of my life that I wasn’t really aware of. And this was made apparent to me when I went for coaching sessions. I engaged a life coach, and I realised that I had this sense of lack or the sense of like, not loving myself enough. So I think one thing that the coach suggested to me is like, maybe you can put in your calendar every day to remind yourself that I am enough. So that’s what I did.
Kai Xin 10:00
I have had a similar experience. Also, I learned this from going through a therapy course and coincidentally, the advice was also to remind yourself that you’re good enough, but not on a calendar on a mirror so that you see every day, and with your reflection.
Kai Xin 10:17
I was just reflecting on the question. And I feel like I picked up this sense of lack in primary school, especially because I was a bench player. So I played basketball but was always a bench player. And I think just you know, those silly mistakes make me overly apologetic, as I felt a need to compensate. And it just gets worse. Moving to secondary school, being roped into the basketball team again, and becoming a recreational or team player instead, so, I think I always feel not as good because everyone is like, a lot better, or I felt very average. I didn’t realise until I went through like the therapy course that this is the underlying problem. And it shows up in little things. Like when people were to praise me, I would deflect the praise, and not really receive them with grace, or acknowledge that, yeah, there are some parts of me that are good. So I guess I’m still learning how to shift that perception.
Cheryl 11:21
I really love what both of you are sharing. And I find a lot of similarities. I think I used to get a lot of sense of superiority. When I was doing sports, that was all throughout my primary school, I was training badminton, and pretty decent in it. But when I moved to Singapore, around 15, or 16, I moved into a very elite school called Methodist Girls School, where basically my classmates had parents who were in government, top lawyers with like, 30 Ferraris or something. And then that was when the whole sense of inferiority came up. I was like, Oh, my God, I am so poor, I have no idea what YouTube is, all the cool stuff that generally people who are richer, were buying at that time. All I had was 2nd generation phones and things like that. So then that sense of superiority turned into a sense of inferiority. And somehow, it got stuck very deeply, because I was bullied as well. So that inferiority, combined with a sense of, you know, being ostracised, hit really deep and permeated all the way to adulthood as well. I think through Buddhism and time, I realise that it’s not about feeling good or bad enough, you’re just like that due to causes and conditions and accepting that and still finding room to improve every day. It’s an attitude that is helpful, to me, at this point.
Daylon 12:37
Yeah. So I think like the first icebreaker question you asked, it connects to the feeling of lack, right, which is related to the topic we’re covering today. And then the other question you mentioned is about how much you love yourself, how much you care about yourself, and how much you find yourself worthy. And both of these questions connect very nicely to what we’re talking about today, which is abundance.
Kai Xin 13:03
Yeah. And maybe you can share a little bit about the difference between feeling a sense of lack, or some people will call it scarcity and feeling a sense of abundance, like, how do you know which one? Which side of the coin are you’re at?
Daylon 13:17
I think a simple way to understand the difference between a scarcity mindset and an abundance mindset is whether it is conditional. A lot of times when we talk about scarcity is very conditional, whereas abundance is more unconditional. For example, if you have this scarcity mindset, which is usually passed down from generation to generation, such as, “if I work hard, I will earn more money. ” It sounds like good advice. But actually, if you dig deeper into it, it means that for any money that you earn, you will always have to work hard for it. You will never get money easily. And it sounds very weird, right when I say maybe you can get money easily. Because it doesn’t mean it has to be illegal, or through any nefarious means. But it’s true. There are actually people who have great business ideas, and they earn money actually very easily. So connecting working hard to earning money, I wouldn’t say it’s the most abundant mindset. In fact, I will classify it as a more scarcity mindset because it’s conditional in that sense. With an abundant mindset on the opposite end, whereby if I am sharing my talents and adding value to the world, I’m being paid in multiples. So this is not conditional, right? This is like if I am someone who has talents and everyone has talents that they are sharing with the world. They will be able to be rewarded in multiples in this case. So, one, you have this feeling of restriction, I must work very hard, depending on how much energy I can give. So if I work very hard, then I get the money, then that other is like a feeling of expansion whereby, oh, okay, I’m really going to receive it because of my gifts and my talents. And I have abundant gifts, and I have abundant talents that I’m able to express in this world. So it’s a very different mindset shift.
Kai Xin 15:29
Could you elaborate a little bit more about the unconditional part? So you’ve explained the conditional pay, maybe some examples?
Daylon 15:38
So like what I mentioned earlier, like, if we tie something to a condition, then it becomes very (transactional)- if I do this, then I will get this. Whereas if I’m naturally in an abundant mindset, there are no conditions in the abundant mindset. It is more of a fact whereby it has already happened, or it is happening, or it’s about to happen. And it’s a feeling of expansion, whereby, you know, the pie is not smaller, because we have to divide it, but the pie gets bigger, and everyone has more share of the pie. So this is like, very, quite different in this in this sense.
Kai Xin 16:21
How do you think that would show up in a day-to-day setting? Because I can also understand that some people might have this cognitive dissonance, okay, if it’s already there, then what do I work for?
Daylon 16:37
So you still have to work for it. Like, I’m not saying that you don’t have to put in the energy, right, you don’t have to set an intention. Those are definitely still important. But the idea of an abundance mindset is to make sure that you don’t block yourself, and you don’t cause any friction, whereby you can receive opportunities where you’re able to allow your gifts to express themselves fully and then receive the opportunities.
Daylon 17:06
Just like what you said earlier Kaixin, you mentioned when someone praises you, you will reject the praise like is nothing, right? You were trying to write off the praise. So that itself is somewhat of a scarcity mindset whereby you are not receiving the gift that is being given to you, which is praise. You do that often enough, you start believing that you’re not worthy, right? You do that often enough that people stop telling you that you’re good, right? But if you say and you accept the praise with grace, you say, “Oh, thank you so much. I think you did well over there as well, thank you so much. You know this is not my only effort. This is also like me trying to, I’m really trying my best over here.” If you receive it with grace, it also gives people the opportunity that acknowledgement that says it’s okay to praise Kaixin, right, it’s okay to tell her that she’s good. Rather than a signal to the person, like, “Please don’t praise me ever again, because I don’t deserve it.”
Kai Xin 18:14
I think there needs to be a little bit of clarification here because it’s a fine line between the intention when praise is received, and then you have the humility to acknowledge it, and still let other people also take the credit and not just have it for yourself, versus thinking that you don’t even deserve it. So yeah, I think it’s for listeners to look inwards to see what is the mental energy and mental state. Going back to what you were saying that the energy or the state is very expansive. I think people can feel that radiation, rather than be limited by the resources that they have on hand. That is, thanks for bringing back that example.
Cheryl 18:55
I’m just very curious, is this an either-or case, right? You either have an abundance mindset, or you have a scarcity mindset, or is it a situation where both can coexist and you can succeed as well?
Daylon 19:07
Um, I haven’t actually seen it being situational. I think generally if someone has a scarcity, mindset, their actions, their behaviour, and the things they say their thoughts tend to be more on the side of scarcity, tend to be more restrictive. Either this restrictiveness could come from self-imposed, restrictedness or actual constraints in the situation. Yeah, so I haven’t seen a hybrid or in-between, it’s either you have it or you don’t have it. Maybe there is a chance whereby someone is still trying to correct it right. So maybe they catch themselves like okay, like this scarcity mindset is not really fully abandoned, let me correct myself a little bit. So once you’re on the other side, right, I think you tend to think, oh, what can I do to collaborate with this person? What can I do to ensure a win-win partnership? What can I do to, you know, accept this love with grace?
Cheryl 20:20
Because when you see no limits, you’re constantly finding opportunities, by scarcity, all you see are boundaries, and you’re just stuck and trying to try to find the best space for yourself within the limited constraints.
Daylon 20:32
Yeah, absolutely. I think there are so many self imposed limits that we put on ourselves. And some of it could be conscious, and some of it could be unconscious. We learned a lot about these conditions from our parents. So if they believe that, you have to have a good job, and then you’ll be successful in life, or you can only be a doctor or lawyer, then you’ll be successful in life, then we tend to follow that narrative. Because since young, they’ve been telling us that don’t go and be a road sweeper, you know, don’t lie, or you must study hard. Or if you don’t study hard, you will be a road sweeper, you will be a pilot, that kind of thing.
Cheryl 21:19
And I think it’s way more than just coming from parents, it’s actually our cultural conditioning, and especially the competitiveness of society as well. I remember in high school, or just generally studying, when you have notes, you have the best answer or you have a website that has good resources, you kind of want to hide it from everybody else, and make sure nobody else does better than you.
Daylon 21:40
That is scarcity because you believe that if you help others to win, you can’t win. And I think it’s also like how the school system is designed. It’s about force ranking the first, second and third. There is no, like everyone does well, where everyone gets a distinction or anything like that. And even when I was teaching at the Polytechnic, they will force a bell curve to rate the students. So you can never have more than, say, 20% of people getting ‘A’ in a class, even though they might be doing well as well. But because of the forced bell curve, you can’t tell everyone, he actually did very well. So I think this is what we call a zero-sum game – for me to win, you have to lose. And actually, that’s not how the world operates. The world doesn’t necessarily operate in zero-sum conditions.
Cheryl 22:40
Is having an abundance mindset, the same as chasing for abundance, which means, you know, like, wanting more, wanting the next opportunity, wanting the next property? And if so, wouldn’t an abundance mindset be an unhealthy mindset? Because it seems like there’ll be no end to the meet the chase?
Daylon 23:01
Yeah, I think that’s such a wonderful question. I believe both of you would probably be more well-versed in Buddhism than I do. But I think in Buddhism, we speak about this idea of desire and attachment. Because we are attached to the outcome, or we have a certain expectation of something, therefore, there will be that disappointment. And having that desire and attachment is actually like a bottomless pit. This is true, I agree. Like if you constantly have that is kind of like never enough. And there’s that constant pursuit of, of material possession. I think if you want more love, wealth and fame, I do believe that you can’t hate or be jealous of others, who have love, wealth and fame. Because when you’re kind of like jealous, it means as you come from that place of lack. If you think, I don’t have enough love, I don’t have enough wealth, or I don’t have enough fame.
Daylon 24:00
I think (one should be) holding on to the idea that in life, I could potentially lose all of these material things and be okay with it as well, and be open to receiving more of it so that I can use it as a force of good. What I’m trying to say is that you need to have this mindset whereby, okay, you’re detached from the outcome of whatever it is, but then you’re still pursuing it. And you have to accept the fact that okay, other people also deserve love, wealth and fame and all these beautiful things and successful things in life. And you’re okay with it. Knowing that if you keep working with it, if you keep sharing your gifts with the world, you’ll be able to find a way to kind of receive it provided that you don’t block yourself from receiving it.
Kai Xin 24:52
So it does sound to me like it is a misconception to say an abundance mindset means we always have to be chasing. It’s actually because you are content with what you already have, there is no more greed right, or wanting, which is the bottomless pit like you’ve mentioned. And yeah, it ties very nicely to Buddhism. In fact, if we already enjoy what we have, then we also grow, because it can be very unhealthy if we see other people as enemies, and then we don’t necessarily feed our virtue of generosity or grow our own wisdom of even like renunciation. It’s not just about, you know, giving material wealth, but it’s also the mindstate, am I less stingy, when it comes to interacting with other people or even, you know, sharing materials? Do I want other people to be successful? There’s also another concept called sympathetic joy means when you see other people succeed, you actually feel happy for them. And I think that is an abundance mindset in itself, where there’s nothing to lose, and you’re happy, not at the expense of others, vice-versa.
Daylon 26:01
Yeah, I definitely believe in what you just mentioned in the later part. I think a lot of why we feel like we don’t want to give or we tend to be a bit more protective of our own resources and what we have is maybe because of that ego, and it’s back to conditioning again. So I think it’s very important to understand that control is an illusion, and the need for control comes from our ego, to manage things and to plan things our way. But the truth and the reality is, life doesn’t go our way. Life actually has its own plans, and it’s how we kind of surf together with what life gives. The water analogy is kind of like a wave, right? You have to kind of move along with it. It’s kind of like having this dance together with life. And you can’t actually control how the outcomes.
Kai Xin 27:04
I’m wondering because we keep mentioning that our society is quite competitive. How realistic would it be for us to cultivate this quality? You have been in multiple MNCs before? I’m pretty sure it’s quite competitive, sometimes even political, how has this abundance mindset helped you? And then how can you inspire our listeners to say, hey, actually, it’s possible?
Daylon 27:29
I think it’s always easy for me to say, hey, looking, looking back and saying, oh, okay, after going through all these things, is actually pretty easy. But that’s also not the truth. I think it’s, it’s a practice, just like mindfulness. You have to be consciously practising mindfulness, Mindful eating, mindful, walking, you know, or even meditation. So all these things are like a muscle. The same thing comes to an abundance mindset as well, you must treat it as a muscle that you need, to practice. You need to kind of think, Oh, if I’m reflecting in my journal, Or if I’m reflecting on the interaction I had with someone, is that actually the best interaction I can have? Is that is that interaction with kind intention, right, is that an interaction with an abundant mindset? And just really asking yourself and challenging yourself? So the short answer is, it’s not easy, Because it’s so easy to default, to shrink your world, so easy to be protective of yourself. Very, very easy, very, very difficult to feel a sense of expansion.
Daylon 28:47
Because when you expand, there’s always that risk, you’re taking opportunities or taking risks. So I don’t blame people, when they want to protect themselves, they want to do the same things that they used to do, they want to defer to what they are familiar with. So it’s important to actually practice, to stretch yourself to be mindful of the quality of your interaction. And as you do that, over time, you will realise that this muscle gets stronger. And as this muscle gets stronger, it becomes easier for you to just show up, be present and be abundant in terms of that mindset. And if you get into any conflict of is anyone around you tries to drag you into a conflict, you’ll feel like you don’t even want to go to the conflict because you’re in this state whereby, wow, this is just like, I’m, I’m just so expansive. I’m so joyful and joyfully abundant, and I don’t even want to be bothered by this small issue. It’s like if someone knocked on my shoulder, I don’t even want to be like bothered, I don’t even want to change my state because someone knocked on my shoulder, I don’t want to be like, thinking about that. I don’t want to like get too particular I buy my friend lunch, you know, or dinner, and then my friend didn’t buy back lunch.
Cheryl 30:16
And you write in a little notebook.
Daylon 30:21
I don’t even want to think about that, because I want to be in this state of abundance, because I believe that, you know, like, this is for good. Whatever happens, happens, and it’s fine. And everyone is, you know, trying their best in their life and doing what they can. So you have this mindset of abundance, and it then has sort of a cascading effect, to how you feel compassionate towards the rest of the world and your interactions with other people as well.
Daylon 30:51
Your goal is not to become Mother Teresa, it’s not like you to become a saint, the goal for you is to get stronger in this muscle of abundance. And as you get stronger, you’ll start to see more results in your life, you start to feel that your quality of interactions with people is better, and you start to feel like when someone offers you an opportunity, you won’t start to doubt, hey, is this person trying to, you know, cheat me or something like that? You don’t start to think about the negative stuff. But I also say, with this caution, it doesn’t mean you throw your critical thinking mind and your logical mind window, we still need to actually retain that. Because that is how we function as human beings with higher-order thinking. So being abundant doesn’t mean that you destroy your logic and your critical thinking like out the window, and you don’t check and stuff like that.
Cheryl 31:48
I really like what you’re sharing. I think what stood out to me, as I was listening to you was really on the idea of understanding the kind intentions (we can have) and also reflecting on the quality of interactions that we’re having with the people around us everyday. And I was just tying it back to you know, even this podcast, even chatting to you, I would say probably a scarcity mindset, when it shows up, it will be one where you know, as a podcaster, I will be thinking “how can I look the best? How can I appear the smartest in the room?” Then, when we’re thinking about (having an) abundance mindset, it changes the whole dynamic? How can I offer everyone here a space to share to add value to this conversation? And I think that will really shift the conversation into something that is so much more relaxed and much more wholesome as well.
Daylon 32:47
I love that. And I think that’s an important distinction around me versus we. If you live in this idea of a me centred universe, it’s all about me, it’s very ego-driven. Whereas you live in a we-centred universe, you stop focusing on yourself too much, because I think that feeling of entitlement, that feeling of being a complainer, It’s that feeling of, “oh, I’m a victim, I’m, I deserve better.” Those are actually not very healthy mindsets, I would say.
Kai Xin 33:21
And I’m also just reflecting on our conversation and how we’ve got connected Daylon. Many years ago, we we caught up, and then I remember, many meals, we talked just very casually, not really expecting anything in return from that connection. And many years later, you know, helping each other in our career-referring businesses, I thought there was just something really beautiful. When I asked whether it’s realistic, I think it’s in the sense that, perhaps some people might think, people might take advantage of us if we are overly generous, or we have this mindset. And we don’t stand for ourselves. But I don’t think it’s true. In fact, when we collaborate, we synergize, we have more resources to share and to create better things than as we are alone. So I thought that was really beautiful, real life example.
Daylon 34:11
Yeah, I know. It’s definitely I mean, theory, it sounds very nice. And I know it’s very difficult to put it into practice. But like I say, No, it’s about little stretches, Like this, shifting your mindset bit by bit, you know, what’s the next level, I can take this to. If, let’s say for example, let’s go back to the example my my friend didn’t buy me dinner. Instead of just mulling over it and getting upset with your friend that didn’t buy you dinner back, what’s the next best intention that you can bring to it? Maybe you can think about oh, you know, like maybe my friend is busy, or maybe like you might be actually dealing with something in their business and all that. So now you’re introducing compassion. Now you’re introducing empathy, that’s a really stretch really?
Kai Xin 35:01
Yeah, I fully agree. And, again, it’s a lot more healthy. I just wanted to read this quote that I found from an article talking about abundance. So it says, our inner abundance radiates a sense of worth value and ease of having something to give the world and enjoying doing so. So it’s very unconditional, we’re just there to give, not expecting anything in return. And then Jack Kornfield, which is the author, later went on to say, without abundance, we can be in the midst of riches and feel like a hungry ghost.
Kai Xin 35:38
I found that to be so powerful is like what you said at the very beginning, we are living in very well-developed countries, and we have a lot of resources, but yet it is always that sense of not-enoughness. And yeah, I just thought, there are so many different ways that it manifests in our lives. I’m also thinking to bring it further in terms of how we can keep this actionable, you know, day-to-day practice, perhaps I can start first having some thoughts and ideas, drawing reference from the Buddha, you know, when he was trying to seek the truth, if he worked to have that limiting belief, and to just stop at the teacher who taught him whatever he could, and then he has already kind of been on the level of the greatest teacher back then. And if he had that scarcity mindset, he would have stopped and said, Okay, I’ve hit a roadblock. That’s it. I such as ended, but because he believed in something more, and he has this abundance mindset, I believe, he then went to uncharted territory and paved his way to enlightenment, and the future generations, like us, have so much to benefit because of his perseverance. So I think the abundance mindset manifests itself in a form of generosity, perseverance, and a lot of, you know, just the act of sharing and being in the moment, I am wondering, how does it manifest for you in day-to-day life?
Daylon 37:10
I think I should also share a personal story to help, so it doesn’t feel like I’m preaching to everyone over here. I actually have been in situations where I feel a great sense of scarcity. These are situations whereby I am almost in a state of depression. There was once when I was 24, and this was me starting my first business. I had $10 in my bank account, and it just reflected back to me that I will not have enough for lunch tomorrow. That was how bad it was. And it served as a constant reminder that, okay, I should really, really not just be more prudent in how I spend my resources. But also, what happened after that was that I managed to get a client to pay earlier. From that, I was able to kind of get back from that downfall itself. Another situation where I almost fell into a depression, was when I chose to quit. After I quit, I couldn’t find a high-paying job. Because I couldn’t find a high-paying job and still had rent obligations, I still had sort of this lifestyle to maintain, I just fell into this state of depression, whereby I live in such a great environment. I was renting a condominium in Marina Bay. I just was really, really not happy with my life at that point in time. I had a great career, but I choose to give it up because it didn’t align with me. And I know it’s not my path from that sort of lack state. I really felt a great sense of lack, but thankfully, what I did in order to force myself out of that state was to do two things.
Daylon 39:07
Number one was questioning some of the things that I had beliefs about. And the question was, hey, do I believe this is going to be a state, this state of a thing is going to last for the rest of my life? I didn’t believe it. I believe I have some sense of control over my life, and I believe I have some sense of control over my life, so there’s something I can do about it. And actually, with those two beliefs, I was able to kind of manage myself out of that depressed, depression episode. And another thing I did was to force myself to give to charity at that point in time because I felt so much lack at that point that I really felt like I need to do something counterintuitive. Intuitively I felt, I need to do something so I just forced myself. I gave to charity and by doing so, even though I don’t seem to have enough, it helped me get back that and cultivate that sense of actually I do have enough, I’m able to give. And if I look at it, I am resourceful. I have the means and the ability to actually find the necessary resources to give back. And it’s just a matter of time away, reverse this situation. So the mindset of giving, I believe, is like the practice, It’s like, something that you do consistently and constantly. And now I put all my charity giving, like on the auto deduction, it really just forces me to and remind myself that I, I always have enough to give to others. As I am receiving success, wealth, opportunities, and love, I always have enough to give back to society always have enough to give to others. So that then becomes a sort of like a practice in this case.
Kai Xin 41:00
It’s so beautiful. Thanks for sharing your story. And I suppose if materially, there really isn’t enough to give, we still can give words of kindness, words of affirmation, encouragement.
Daylon 41:13
or even a smile. Like, even if we don’t have anything in the world, the least we can do is to give a smile.
Kai Xin 41:20
Yeah, that’s so true. And a smile can really change people’s life or even save lives. So I guess this very nicely sums up the episode where we talk about the abundance mindset to how it shows up in different aspects of our lives and giving it’s a very big part of it. And sometimes when we compare ourselves with the scarcity mindset, it says a lot on the conditional, Very material things, even when it comes to giving ultimate like, oh, do I materially have enough things to give? But I think through the conversation, I realised there’s so much more. And it’s all about bits and pieces step by step. Of course, it’s not a leap, we give away every single thing and let people step over us. But it’s really, more realistically, how do we look for opportunities and not block ourselves from them because of our limiting beliefs? And how do we constantly pave the way to uncharted territories? Yeah, so that’s, that’s really beautiful.
Daylon 42:21
I think great questions are gifts as well, someone wants to tell me the quality of questions we ask in life, determines the quality of our life. So I’ll leave every listener with a question. And I hope there’s something you think about. So with regard to an abundance mindset, my question is, where do you prefer to spend your energy? And in which state do you want to fill your days?
Daylon 42:51
Because if you prefer to spend your energy thinking about things that constrain you and limit you, and you prefer to be in a state whereby you feel trapped, then that is the energy and the state of your life, and it does spill over to the rest of the aspects of your life. So I always say that if you want to hold greater wealth and greater success, you do need to have a bigger cup to receive it. And this mindset is essentially having a bigger cup.
Kai Xin 43:21
Very nice. Thank you so much for leaving us with that question. And I hope all listeners would carry on daddy’s having a bigger cup to fill. Thank you.
Daylon 43:33
Thank you. Thank you so much, David. You’re very welcome. And thanks for the opportunity to share.
Kai Xin 43:39
I hope you find this episode useful. And you’re able to distinguish between what is a scarcity mindset and what is an abundance mindset. And catch yourself in your day-to-day interaction whenever discussing the mindset pops up. And I hope you can gradually allow yourself to receive with grace and also to be more generous and to rejoice in other people’s success and make this world a much better place. Till the next episode. I wish you stay happy and wise.
More about Daylon Soh
Daylon is a corporate executive turned education entrepreneur who runs a training institute, based in Singapore & Malaysia, focused on helping professionals and businesses grow their careers and business with User Experience (UX) Design and Product Management.
Daylon is a Buddhist by faith and has been a pescatarian since 2016.
