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How is mindfulness sustained effortlessly?

How is mindfulness sustained effortlessly?

by | Aug 2, 2024 | Mindfulness & Meditation, Read

This article is the final part of two instalments, edited from Sister Sylvia Bay’s Dhamma talk for the Global Buddhist Conference in December 2023. Part I can be found here

TLDR: Having discussed the challenges of sustaining mindfulness, Sister Sylvia explores two key conditions to cultivate continuous mindfulness: contentment and kusala (Pali translated as ‘skillful’) mind states.

Mindfulness is a mental state, no different from those you are more familiar with such as anger, pride, fear, worry, joy, faith, gratitude, compassion and so on. 

Like all mental states, it will arise in the presence of the right and necessary conditions.

“When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.” (SN 12.62 Uninstructed). 

What does this verse mean? The presence of mental conditions will lead to other mental states arising.

If I ask you to feel fear right now, you may not be able to do it. 

Because you are surrounded by people, in bright lighting and loud noises. The ‘necessary’ conditions for fear to arise are simply not there.

Perhaps you can still trigger some fear if you successfully ‘talk’ and convince yourself that something is frightening here. But even then, whatever smidgeon of fear you can summon with herculean effort will not last.

So what are the essential conditions for our mind to stay mindful?

Let’s flip it around and ask ourselves a different question, ‘what are the things that cause us to be so distracted?’ It goes back to what we had earlier said: kāma, bhava, vibhava taṇhā (craving for stimuli of the external and internal world).

Therefore, it makes sense that a key and necessary condition for mindfulness to arise with spontaneity and ease, must be some kind of ‘withdrawal’ from the shiny, busy, colourful world. 

I’m not talking about becoming a hermit and retreating to the high mountains or the deep forests. That is escapism and may not work if your mind still has a yearning (remember bhava/vibhava taṇhā).

I’m talking about moderation and contentment. We can’t be mindful of here and now, or of just being, when the mind is full of ‘stuff’. 

What stuff? The ‘stuff’ out there and the thoughts we construct. As long as we keep allowing ourselves to just indulge, enjoy, give free reign to desires and chasing, we are feeding the subconscious habit of craving. 

The more craving we have, the more thought construction there will be, and the more elusive is mindfulness. Just look at our own thoughts. They are all driven mostly by shades of desire and craving.

Moderation and contentment will mean much less thought constructions. Therefore, if we are serious about cultivating mindfulness, we must learn to make do and be more easily content. 

As Buddha had taught, learn to observe “body, feelings, mind and Dhamma” “keen, aware, and mindful, (and) rid of covetousness and displeasure for the world.” (AN 4.274)

We learn not to hanker after or seek solace in external sensuous objects: our handphones, personal electronic devices, music, computer games, and food. We learn to trim our to-do lists.

Learn not to keep filling our life with activities. Learn not to need constant company and chit-chats. Learn to be comfortable with solitude and quiet alone time. Learn to be comfortable doing nothing. 

I am not talking about being a couch potato and while away time fermenting in front of the TV, binging away. I really do mean not doing anything and just being aware, mindful of the body, breathing, and being content.

Another condition helpful for effortless mindfulness is presence of kusala (wholesome/skilful) mental states.

 The regular mind is typically filled with the more akusala (unwholesome/unskilful) types of mental states, underpinned essentially by lobha (greed) and/or dosa (anger). [We shall set aside moha (delusion) because it is less in your face so we are usually not as aware of their disruptive impact.]

Akusala mental states are powerfully gripping and trigger strong emotions which make experiences memorable and unforgettable.

Lobha is insidious: while less intense than dosa, its effects are lingering. You try forgetting that delicious plate of char kway teow. The unpleasant sensation of longing may be mild, but it’s persistent. It’s like a mild itch in your heart that constantly annoys and won’t go away.

Dosa is emotionally more impactful and hugely unpleasant but once it hits a high, the diminishing effects are obvious. As long as you don’t inject fresh narratives to fuel the anger, high emotions will fade. 

Nonetheless, once your mind is seized by these two mental drivers, equanimity and mindfulness are lost.

In contrast, kusala mental states are very pleasant, calming, steady, and settling. All kusala mental states will yield some measure of mindfulness. The stronger the kusala mental states, the steadier and more settled the mind. 

What are some of these supportive kusala mental states?

Faith – relatively easy to cultivate with a simple ‘ritual’ performed with understanding and mindfulness. 

Contentment and gratitude – both mental states are symbiotically intertwined. When one is content, one feels grateful. With gratitude, one feels joy. 

Other kusala mental states include kindness and compassion, love, friendliness, generosity, and so on. 

All powerful kusala mental states will trigger the release of wonderful feel-good neurochemicals such as dopamine, serotonin, endorphin and oxytocin that actually help with settling the mind and boosting mindfulness.

Wise Steps:

  1. To experience effortless mindfulness in daily life will require fundamental shifts in our habits and choices. 
  1. We must learn to moderate desires, become more easily content, become kinder, be more giving, be warmer and nicer
  2. When the 2Bs (be content, be kusala) are a natural part of you, your mind will settle into a general sense of effortless mindfulness.
Why Is Mindfulness So Hard?

Why Is Mindfulness So Hard?

by | Jul 31, 2024 | Mindfulness & Meditation, Read

Editor’s Note: This article is the first part of two instalments, edited from Sister Sylvia Bay’s Dhamma talk for the Global Buddhist Conference in December 2023.

TLDR: Mindfulness is an elusive aspect of Buddhist practice that many beginners find it hard to nail. Sister Sylvia acknowledges the challenges and offers three explanations on its impediments.

Arousing mindfulness in itself is not that difficult. Most of us, even when we were new to it, probably would not have much difficulty. The challenge, if any, is sustaining mindfulness. 

In this article, my reference to mindfulness is both the practice of mindfulness in a dedicated meditation sitting as well as mindfulness in daily life.

The Difficulty of Mindfulness

First, mindfulness in a meditation sitting: we sit, and focus our attention on a meditation object e.g., breathing. We settle mindful attention on the breathing. Mere moments later, attention drifts.

We will try again. Focus. 

Bring mindfulness to the breathing and again, attention drifts. 

Random thoughts intrude. Sounds beckon. 

We experience bodily discomfort. Mindful attention just does not stay put. Sounds familiar? Should this persist, we will feel discouraged and demoralised. 

The more we try, the more dukkha we feel. A ‘meditation’ sitting becomes a vicious cycle of aspirational hope, valiant effort, disappointment, dejection, maybe apprehension (about sitting again), even aversion. 

We may even give up and we have regrets.

Next, mindfulness in daily life – that is even harder. 

We may experience sporadic and periodic momentary mindfulness in daily life: five minutes here, six minutes there. 

Unfortunately, for the most times, it’s just that, sporadic and periodic.

Why is mindfulness so hard?

I offer three explanations. You may have your own unique circumstances, but the following are the generic ones.

1) Mindfulness is not a habit for the mind to stay put 

Our regular mind is easily distracted. I suspect this tendency is genetic. It is programmed into our genes to make sure that humans survive as a species and proliferate. Our genes are not particular whether or not we are happy but we must live on and multiply. 

So subconsciously, we are constantly on the lookout for ‘danger’. We may no longer be living in a dangerous world, but our genes are still stuck in primeval times. (That’s why we are still afraid of the dark and we are easily startled by loud and sudden unexplained sounds.) 

Subconsciously, we are sensitive to perceived ‘threats’ and are primed for fight or flight. 

The question is what are these threats in our time and space? 

Here in Singapore, a modern, economically advanced, stable, secure and peaceful land, where is the threat?

‘Threats’ are perceived. They may or may not be real but if your mind says they are there, they are.

In our world, ‘threats’ are anything that we perceive might diminish our pleasure, eat into our resources (time, money, space), and undermine our sense of well-being. At the same time, we are also on the perpetual lookout for ‘gains’, for the opportunity to consume, improve and enjoy more.

Hence, our mind could not stay put for long. It must constantly guard against threats (unpleasant and/or painful experiences) and seek out opportunities (for pleasurable and pleasant experiences). 

Mind will flitter from sensual objects to sensual objects in the external world, drawn or repelled by sights, sounds, smell, tastes and touch. Then it drifts inwards to review, replay, plan and construct. 

This random zig-zagging and flipping-flopping between worlds is incessant. While seemingly draining, this is what keeps us alive and going, beyond death, into the next birth. This is saṃsāra.

This is the habitual reality of our regular, untrained and uninstructed mind. 

Some of us are so used to it that we cannot even begin to conceive how a mind can stop zipping and settle quietly into the present, content with the here and now.

2) Too many desires 

Now,  the first explanation and the second are not the same. 1 is genetic. 2 is conditional arising and habits built over time.

Most of us have consciously or subconsciously developed and nurtured a constant stream of unrelenting wants and desires. We have an enormous appetite. Every new delightful or painful experience feeds desires and breeds more wants. 

The Buddha had broadly categorised the world’s vast spread of infinite desires into kāma taṇhā (craving for sensual pleasures), bhava taṇhā (craving for becoming) and vibhava taṇhā (craving for non-becoming).

Kāma taṇhā is the craving for the world of pleasurable senses (i.e., world without pain and unpleasantry): beautiful sights, alluring sounds, mesmerising scents, mouth-watering tastes, comforting and soothing touches.

Bhava (becoming) and vibhava (non/not becoming) taṇhā – they refer to our internal mind-made world: the mental constructs of the past and plans for the future. 

When we want to relive an experience, it is bhava taṇhā. When we want not to relive an experience or in extreme and rare cases when we wish for life to end, it is vibhava taṇhā. Our world within can be even more ‘real’, more convincing, more gripping than the world without.

All these taṇhā are intensely distracting. 

The Mind cannot settle and mindfulness cannot arise when our mental cauldron is bubbling with desires. 

The more intense the desire, the hotter the cauldron boils and churns. The more crowded that cauldron, the more clouded the mind. How can the mind settle? Mindfulness does not stand a chance.

3) ‘Wrong ditthi’ (View)

This third explanation on the topic is about lacking correct knowledge of how the mind works and how mindfulness arises. 

Many of us hold assumptions about what is ‘correct’ mindfulness practice. We may think that our struggle is about insufficient practice, not enough experience or not knowing the right steps to trigger mindfulness. 

Let’s explore two of the more common wrong views.

a. A common wrong view is we do not have enough practice and/or experience.

If we think our problem is this, our ‘solution’ is likely to be to ‘sit more, sit often, sit longer’.

We grit our teeth and force the mind to stay put on the object of focus. If the mind persists in drifting, we double down on concentration effort and maybe smack the mind a bit to force compliance. Stay up the night, if necessary. Sit on a hard floor with no back support.

Is this assumption correct? Well, yes and no.

Yes: certainly developing a daily habit of sitting at a particular time and a particular spot can wire the brain to get itself ready for a dedicated sitting. 

At the anointed time and space, you feel a draw to the meditation space. If your meditation object is breathing, and you are familiar with it, that familiarity can spill over to daily life; mindfulness will arise spontaneously whenever you happen to be aware of breathing.

But it can also be a NO because time (when you sit) and space (where you sit) is just form. By themselves, they are not enough to overcome some of the mental conditions that vex many a regular mind such as worry, restlessness, agitation, uncertainty and scepticism, regrets, distractions and so on and so forth.

In fact, if despite your best efforts, sustained and effortless mindfulness remains elusive, you will end up frustrated, demoralised, dejected, and even helpless. This is ‘spiritual’ dukkha (as opposed to mundane and material dukkha). 

You may spiral into a vicious cycle of trying to sit, being disappointed, feeling stressed and eventually giving up. This is when people start to sit less, from daily effort to alternate days, to only on the weekends, and eventually only at retreats.

b. Another common assumption why sustained mindfulness is elusive for us is we don’t know the ‘right steps’.

If you think so, you are likely to say, we need to get the SOP (Standard Operating Principles) right. We seek out meditation masters to learn ‘properly’.

We obsess about when to sit (morning, evening, before sleep, after meals), where to sit (on the floor, on a chair, in a quiet room, in meditation hall), how to sit (full lotus, half lotus, no lotus) and where to park mindful attention (on tip of the nose, before the face, on the stomach, on the chest).

We seek out renowned meditation teachers with the hope that they can teach us something special to steady the mind and settle mindfulness. We go for endless retreats because it is only there that we can focus and experience mindfulness.

These are all good to have but not essential. 

If the mental conditions are right, the mind will naturally steady and settle; it will be a breeze. There is no need for extraordinary efforts.

Wise Steps:

  1. Recognise that our minds are distracted by default;
  2. Understand the three different types of cravings and how they arise in our minds; and
  3. Check our practice for wrong views on cultivating mindfulness.
The Porn Predicament: A Candid Look at Sexual Desire Through a Buddhist Lens

The Porn Predicament: A Candid Look at Sexual Desire Through a Buddhist Lens

by | Jul 24, 2024 | Emotional-mastery, Read, Sex and porn

TLDR: With porn so prevalent to all of us, what is the Buddhist take on porn. How can we sustain the practice in a digitally saturated world?

Disclaimer: This article discusses the topic of pornography viewing and may be uncomfortable to some. Please proceed at your discretion.

In the modern world’s frenetic chaos, the Buddha’s teachings on letting go of craving and attachment can seem like ancient whispers easily drowned out by society’s loud siren calls for gratification. 

Nowhere is this tension more apparent than the omnipresent pornography that has seeped into our collective consciousness, and at an increasingly young age too. In Singapore, 9 out of 10 boys aged 13 to 15 have watched or read sexually explicit materials. 

For Buddhists navigating this dizzying digital era, the issue sparks a moral paradox – to indulge these carnal cravings through pornography’s vivid lens, or to abstain.

The Buddhist Perspective on Sensual Pleasure

On the surface, pornography embodies the very attachments Buddhism cautions against. The Buddha was explicit that sensual pleasures are fundamentally unsatisfying. 

The Buddha described sensual pleasures as “a chain of bones” (in the Alagaddupama Sutta) – with little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, and ensnaring us in a perpetual cycle of dissatisfactory craving. 

Similarly, in the Avassuta Pariyaya Sutta, the Buddha warns that one being “mastered” by sights, sounds, tastes and sensations leads to the growth of defilements like lust, resulting in future rebirth and suffering. Through this view, pornography, with its fictional displays intended to arouse, represents the apex of delusion, conjuring an artificial reality to satiate base desires.

The Pragmatic Approach

And yet, Buddhism teaches us to meet reality’s circumstances with pragmatism and an open mind, not dogmatic rigidity. Sexual desire is innate to the human experience, not something to be rashly suppressed or shamed.

Some argue that pornography may provide a safe, private way for individuals to explore their sexual curiosities and fantasies without risk of sexually transmitted infections or unwanted pregnancies. It is also asserted that it may offer an accessible avenue for releasing pent-up desires that might otherwise lead to misconduct from desperation. 

For those with unconventional desires and orientations, it also allows secure examination of their eroticism behind closed doors.

But is this a skillful means for Buddhists interested in living an ethical life and purifying their minds? Do individuals know when it is enough and when they are addicted to it? The lines are more blurred than some would think.

The Nature of Pornography

The Porn Predicament: A Candid Look at Sexual Desire Through a Buddhist Lens


Informing this debate is the very nature of pornography itself. Pornography, by design, perpetuates defilements the Buddha cautioned against. 

There are 16 defilements (upakilesa) that cloud the mind. The Thai saying, “Kilesa is the engine of sadness,” aptly captures this notion. Pornographic scenes hijack the brain’s dopamine reward system, and according to  Gary Wilson (Tedx Glassgow speaker), the dopamine hit can lead to two things: it signals to the brain that it has reached a dopamine peak, and it activates delta FosB, which triggers binge mechanisms and leads to more craving, creating a cycle. 

This can cause brain changes similar to those found in all addicts, leading to a numbed pleasure response where only the addict finds porn exciting and everything else becomes boring. 

This addictive feedback loop also means increasingly extreme material (more graphic violence, more risque, more illegal or elusive content) is required to feel aroused. Combined with the accessibility to this content, the viewer’s willpower erodes. 

What may begin as a “harmless” pleasure or a stress-release activity can increasingly darken the mind.

Ajahn Achalo shares his perspective on pornography here, that by embracing and familiarizing one’s mind with darkness, the mind gets dark, and further darkens as it feeds on more darkness. 

The Ethical Concerns

Research has also shown that 88% of the most popular porn scenes contain acts of sexual physical aggression, and 96% of scenes portray women as enjoying violence (Bridges et al., 2010) – and this belief that women subjected to sexual violence is acceptable can become internalised by impressionable viewers. 

The coercive underbelly of the industry, rife with exploitation and trafficking of real human beings, the majority being children, also cannot be ignored.

Stories recounted by former performers frequently include instances where they tried to back out of the scene or even the industry altogether and were threatened with legal action. 

Other stories include threats from industry agents for performers to do scenes that were not agreed upon beforehand. As Buddhists, are we perpetuating this abuse merely by partaking as consumers? 

Undoubtedly, for monastics who have renounced sensual indulgence, engaging in pornography and sexual acts is a clear violation of vows and precepts.

But for the householder still entrenched in worldly life, how can one relate skillfully to the natural urges of sexual desires?

Raga, or lust, is one of the most powerful desires – a finding well supported by neurobiology. Contrary to the modern belief that unbridled expressions of desire are a form of liberation, the Buddha considers desire as a form of slavery: when you have a desire, if you must and are compelled to follow it, these darken and cloud the mind. 

Instead, liberation in the Buddhist sense, points to a mind that is free from the deluding and darkening forces of desire, attachment and ignorance. It thus becomes radiant, free and peaceful. Most importantly, all of us have the potential to be awakened to this nature. 

Can Watch Or Not Watch?

Thus, the question of whether one can or cannot watch pornography, should be extended to consider how we can cultivate self-compassion amidst these potent forces of desires that cloud the clear, radiant nature of the mind. Furthermore, how we can we journey towards liberation from suffering with ethics, concentration and wisdom.

We can turn to the Handful of Leaves Podcast with Ven Damcho on the topic of sex for some enlightening insights. 

One key takeaway is to be brutally honest with where we are at, not shaming ourselves for having these natural urges or even, secretive impulsive habits of pornography and trying to pretend to be a saintly celibate “Buddhist”, whatever that means. 

Accepting where we are at in this journey, and acknowledging that the Buddha’s teachings are a gradual path of relinquishing our cravings is the first step towards happiness. 

Whether you watch porn or don’t, there is no Godly being that will condemn you, but really, if you feel empty, unhappy and lost as a result, the purpose of the teachings is for us to work out what is realistic or beneficial to our happiness, and taking committed actions towards that. 

And to ask ourselves with our own wisdom, what’s realistic, what’s beneficial, what is useful and caring and kind to others.

Start where you’re at 

One of the most effective techniques according to psychiatrist Dr K. for resisting the urge to view pornography is called “urge surfing.” 

This paradoxical approach recognises that directly fighting pornography cravings is often counterproductive, as the brain learns to intensify the urges when you resist and fail. Instead, urge surfing involves riding out the craving wave for 15-30 minutes without giving in. 

During this timeframe, the brain’s homeostatic tolerance mechanisms will kick in, allowing the intensity of the urge to subside on its own. To facilitate urge surfing, avoid fighting any battles you’re likely to lose against intense cravings. This reinforces a sense of powerlessness. 

Instead, try to strategically “pick your battles” by scheduling specific windows when pornography viewing is allowed.

This makes it easier to surf through cravings that arise outside of those designated times. With practice, you can strengthen your ability to mindfully experience urges without unconsciously acting on them or creating an irresistible struggle.

From objectification to connection 

Cultivating healthy intimate relationships grounded in genuine care, respect and compassionate communication allows sexuality to naturally blossom as an expression of profound human connection – rather than objectification or personal gratification. 

Lama Thubten Yeshe has an inspiring quote that always makes me pause, he said, “Often when we say, I love you to someone, what we really mean is I want to use you.”

A key practice to developing real connections with others is to regularly reflect with wisdom and honesty: Am I being wise and kind to myself and others?

Do I want to perpetuate sex as a commodity, viewing others as mere objects, as pieces of flesh to be consumed for fleeting pleasure, like food to satiate a craving?

Is this how I wish to relate to those I care for and to myself? By staying committed to wisdom and kindness, we can be open to intimacy and sex as an acceptance of the wholeness of another, rather than just pursuing personal gratification that inevitably breeds emptiness. 

Why are you dissatisfied with your current life?

The Porn Predicament: A Candid Look at Sexual Desire Through a Buddhist Lens

Similar to people who have an addiction to alcohol and drugs, porn is often used as an unhealthy coping mechanism, especially to get away from their thoughts of loneliness.

It is thus critical to address the root causes driving the behaviour of porn consumption, by building up alternative emotional regulation techniques. 

This could include mindfulness practices, exercising, gratitude journaling, seeking counselling, or visiting the Handful of Leaves Directory that promotes wholesome communities providing a sense of purpose and fulfilment. 

Establishment of mindfulness

In the podcast, Ven Damcho also suggests referencing the Buddha’s Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta on the establishment of mindfulness. First of all, we learn to identify our own states of mindminds of suffering, such as loneliness, emptiness or even attachment. 

Frankly, that’s not easy. When we’re in suffering, we are not identifying it. We are reacting.

When we’re stuck in attachment, our immediate thought is often “I want more. How do I have more of this pleasure?” However, this stance fails to recognize the attachment itself. 

By learning to identify the physical manifestations of our thoughts and emotions through meditation, we can cultivate a deeper understanding of their origins and implications. 

Adopting this introspective stance allows us to discern the consequences of our thoughts and emotions, guiding us towards wiser choices. Crucially, this process involves refraining from harsh self-criticism, as condemning ourselves for perceived shortcomings only perpetuates negative patterns. 

Judging ourselves as “bad and lustful” or “bad and angry” is not the antidote to attachment or anger; it only breeds more negativity.

Contemplating impermanence

The Porn Predicament: A Candid Look at Sexual Desire Through a Buddhist Lens. Why are you settling for Grade F happiness?

The antidote to any kind of attachment is often contemplating impermanence – reflecting on whether the desired object can bring everlasting pleasure or happiness, and considering if engaging with it harms ourselves and others. 

Slowing down and taking a long-term perspective can calm attachment. Instead of judging ourselves, we must cultivate wisdom by examining the causes, conditions, and effects our attachments produce.

 If we can clearly see that something is not bringing genuine happiness, we won’t settle for it. Venerable Thubten Chodron often says, “Why are you settling for Grade F happiness?” Our minds may protest, “It’s the only thing I know,” but there are sources of happiness outside of our attachments, like having an honest conversation with someone we care about. 

The key is moving forward in a way that brings more pleasure than lies or attachments ever could. In summary, choose wisely.

Wise Steps:

  1. Evaluate the facts around pornography, and reflect if it is something that you want to further imprint your mind with. Every action and perception, whether wholesome or unwholesome, that we actively consume leaves an imprint on our mind, and the more we do it, the deeper those grooves will get. So, what are we choosing to stain our minds with? 
  2. If you wish to change, take a gradual and multi-pronged approach addressing root causes, and always with kindness and compassion to oneself. Good luck!
Strength in the Sangha: Growing Together as a Buddhist Community (ft. Bro. Chye Chye)

Strength in the Sangha: Growing Together as a Buddhist Community (ft. Bro. Chye Chye)

by | Jul 4, 2024 | Podcast

Summary

🤔 Ever wondered what it truly means to take refuge in the Sangha? 🌱 In this episode, Cheryl and Brother Chye Chye explore the importance of this practice for personal and communal spiritual growth by understanding:
☸️ The significance and qualities of the noble Sangha
🙏 How we can find balance in relating to the Sangha
🔍 Checks and balances within the Sangha ecosystem

About the Speaker

Chye works in the wealth management industry. He not only plays the role of a banker to his clients but often as a counsellor, friend, confidant etc. As a trained engineer, he will often try to make Dhamma learning as simple and logical as possible.

Key Takeaways

Taking refuge in the Sangha, a core practice in Buddhism, goes beyond mere association—it signifies a deep commitment to learning and embodying the teachings of the Buddha. In a recent insightful discussion between Cheryl and Brother Chye Chye, the essence of going to the Sangha for refuge was explored, highlighting its transformative power in personal and communal spiritual growth.

Recollecting the Qualities of the Noble Sangha

Cheryl and Brother Chye emphasized that the Sangha consists of individuals who not only uphold but also live by the teachings of the Buddha. They embody qualities such as integrity and wisdom, serving as custodians of the Dhamma and an unsurpassable field of merit to the world. The Sangha inspires by teaching the Dhamma clearly and logically, motivated by compassion for the benefit of others, and without self-interest. They also inspire through their upright conduct, demonstrating integrity and adherence to Buddhist principles. These qualities collectively inspire practitioners by offering clear guidance and serving as authentic examples of living according to the Dhamma.

Supaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Ujupaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Ñāyapaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Sāmīcipaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Yadidaṃ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā
Esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇiyo
Anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā ti

Saṅghānussati (Recollection of the Sangha)

Translation:

Of good conduct is the Order of the Disciples of the Blessed One.
Of upright conduct is the Order of the Disciples of the Blessed One.
Of wise conduct is the Order of the Disciples of the Blessed One.
Of proper conduct is the Order of the Disciples of the Blessed One.

This Order of the Disciples of the Blessed One, namely these Four Pairs of persons, the eight [types of] individuals,
is worthy of gifts,
worthy of hospitality,
worthy of offerings,
worthy of reverential salutation,
and is an incomparable field of merit for the World.

Saṅghānussati (Recollection of the Sangha)

Balancing Guidance from Teachers and Self-Reliance

The discussion highlighted the importance of balancing the need for guidance from teachers with trusting one’s own mindfulness to progress on this path. This delicate balance ensures that practitioners benefit from the collective wisdom of the Sangha while also nurturing their self-reliance on this spiritual journey. When relating to monastics, it’s skillful to understand that bowing to them signifies respect for the entire Sangha community of the past, present and future. This practice ensures that our refuge lies in the qualities and collective practice of the Sangha, rather than solely in individual persons, thereby safeguarding our faith in the Triple Gem.

Checks and Balances within the Sangha Ecosystem

Delving into the nuances of community dynamics, Cheryl and Brother Chye Chye explored the significance of offering constructive feedback within the Sangha. They emphasized that fostering a supportive environment is crucial for growth and harmony on the spiritual path. By engaging in respectful dialogue and mutual support, practitioners contribute to a nurturing community that facilitates collective progress.

In conclusion, Cheryl and Brother Chye Chye’s discussion on taking refuge in the Sangha illuminates the profound implications of this practice within Buddhism. By embracing the qualities of integrity, wisdom, and communal support, practitioners not only deepen their spiritual practice but also contribute to the preservation and propagation of the Dhamma. Ultimately, the Sangha serves as a beacon of inspiration and guidance, guiding individuals on their journey towards awakening and enlightenment.

Transcript:

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. My name is Cheryl. And today I have with me a special guest, Brother Chye Chye.

[00:00:08] Chye: Hello, Brother Chye Chye.

Hello Cheryl. Hi.

[00:00:10] Cheryl: So Brother Chye Chye is a Dhamma practitioner, a student of the Buddha, and he loves cats and dogs. Yes, yes, yes.

I’ll let him introduce the names of his cute little cats and dogs.

[00:00:22] Chye: Okay I have a handful of animals at my place. So I have two dogs and two cats. My first dog is called Bodhi, and my second dog is called Metta. My two other cats, one cat is called Satta. The other cat is called Citta.

My aim is that you put them together then it means something like Bodhisatta, Bodhicitta.

[00:00:43] Cheryl: Last time I went to Brother Chye Chye’s house and it was quite funny because Metta was kind of hyper. And then I think Brother Chye Chye was scolding, Metta! Sit down! Metta! Stop it!

[00:00:56] Chye: No Metta already.

[00:00:57] Cheryl: Yeah, I found it so funny and ironic.

[00:01:02] Chye: Yeah, it’s very active, very active. Also means it has a lot of Metta for everyone. So it’s very friendly to everyone and wants to play with everyone.

Yeah, that’s right.

[00:01:09] Cheryl: Today I’ve invited Brother Chye Chye for a challenging topic.

So it’s relating to the idea of taking refuge in the Sangha, which we always do, and really wanting to dig deep to understand what does it mean to respect the Sangha, what does it mean to take refuge in them, and to what extent should we rely on them and on ourselves in this practice.

[00:01:39] Chye: Okay, okay. Let me answer the first part about taking refuge in Sangha. I think that’s what most Buddhists would do. And it’s commonly done, I mean, when you first become a Buddhist, you take refuge in the Triple Gem and one of them is the Sangha, right? So let me break it down into two parts, right? So one is taking refuge.

And one is the Sangha, right? So, what does taking refuge mean, right? So, by the word it means that you’re actually taking shelter? or you go to a place that’s very safe, right? Or someone or a place that you have trust and confidence in, right? Because when you are at that place or when you’re with somebody or when you’re with the object, it actually protects you from danger in whatever sense, right?

So typically when somebody take refuge in the triple gems, you also mean that you want to follow this path. You have confidence in this path to protect you from the danger of the world and all the dangers of the mind or the Akusala mind, right? The great, hatred, delusion. And it’s also coincidentally when you want to be a Buddhist, the first thing that you do is to take refuge in the Triple Gem, Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, right?

So that is the taking refuge part. Then let me talk about the Sangha right? Ideally, Sangha in the Buddha’s time, it referred to the Ariya Sangha, right? That’s why in the recitation of the qualities of the Sangha, you talk about the four pairs of person, the eight types of individuals, right? And there’s nowhere that they talk about donning the robes. Right. It’s all about the qualities of the Sangha, right?

So Ariya Sangha means one who have realized at least a first stage of sainthood because in a Buddhist practice especially in the Theravada practice, when you practice Dhamma, you have different attainment, right?

So if you attain the first stage of Enlightenment, that qualifies you as an Ariya Sangha and in total there are four stages. Yeah. Okay. So that’s Ariya Sangha. But nowadays, conventionally, they are the monastic community who are in robes or they are ordained, right? And they are the representative of the monastic community, who devote their lives to the practice of Dhamma. And they’re important because they’re the ones who’ve shared, preserved and practiced the Dhamma for 2600 years.

And today we can still learn the Dhamma because of them.

So taking refuge in Sangha now has two levels. One I call the external level, right? So it’s about having confidence. in the qualities of the ideal Sangha, and also in the monastic Sangha community, which has helped to preserve the teaching until today. So that’s the external part, right? But more importantly, it’s also about the internal part.

Internal refuge to the Sangha, what does it mean? It’s about having that confidence in ourselves that one day we can be purified to become the ideal Sangha. So from external, it must come to internal. That’s why the Buddha said that, you know, in the Parinirvana Sutta, he said mendicants or bhikkhus, be an island unto yourself.

Now be your own refuge with no other refuge. What does it mean? If you look at the quality of the Triple Gem, the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, we all can have the quality if we practice the Dhamma well and we follow the path. So that to me is taking refuge in the Sangha externally and internally. Yeah.

[00:04:58] Cheryl: And I’m very curious to hear from you about your journey in taking refuge in the Sangha.

How has that evolved from the first day you took refuge until today?

[00:05:09] Chye: Wow. Very different. It’s totally different. Because initially when I take refuge in the Sangha or in the Triple Gem, right? Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, right? It’s really the form, right? The Buddha Rupa, the texts, the teachings, followed by the monastic form. But as you go deeper and deeper into the practice, you start to realize the Triple Gem, it’s about the qualities, the qualities of the Buddha. Although the Buddha is not around, but we can still feel the qualities of the Buddha, you know, the timeless teaching, the Dhamma and the Sangha who have practiced well and practiced right.

And because you take refuge in the qualities of the Triple Gem, you yourself will want to aspire to achieve those qualities in the Triple Gem. Something you’re confident in that you can achieve. Then you realize that actually the Triple Gem are all within us. We can achieve an awakened mind. We can taste the Dhamma. And Sangha just means that one day, we can be the ideal Sangha that the Buddha talked about. So right now, the Triple Gem has a very special meaning for me.

It means that I myself, if I walk the path correctly, the Triple Gem is inside me, and I take refuge in that Triple Gem.

[00:06:19] Cheryl: I find that so beautiful that you are able to take the journey from taking refuge of an external object to moving it into characteristics and qualities that you could embody within yourself.

[00:06:32] Chye: Yeah. So now taking refuge in the Triple Gem become very meaningful for me. It’s no longer something that’s external, but I’ve moved into the internal part of me that I want to achieve. I can achieve. I have the potential to achieve. Yeah.

[00:06:45] Cheryl: And can you share more about the qualities and I guess perhaps elaborating a bit more specifically on the qualities of the Sangha in the ideal sense that the Buddha expounded?

[00:07:00] Chye: Okay, if you look at the phrase, it’s talking about Sangha members who practice in a very honest way, practice correctly, and practice in a way that inspires people, right? And of course, if you practice that way, one day you can attain the fruits of the Dhamma or the fruits of the path.

And that’s why there are four pairs and eight types of individuals and that these are the people who we call the Ariya Sangha, right? These are the people that bring immense merits to the world. That’s why in the phrase it is said that they’re an unsurpassed field of merits for the world, because this group of Sangha, not only they are harmless, but they also are very beneficial to the world when they share the teaching, when they share the path, and when they guide you accordingly in the practice itself. And they’re also worthy of gifts, worthy of hostility, and worthy of offering, because they themselves have walked the path, they themselves have benefited from the path and have realized and now they share the Dhamma. And that’s the reason why they are worthy of all these offering, gifts and hospitality. So to me, this is the ideal quality of Sangha that is set by the standard and also something that we all can achieve. We all can achieve if we walk the path correctly.

[00:08:12] Cheryl: So you’re saying one was they walk correctly. Secondly is, they walk in an inspiring way.

[00:08:19] Chye: Yes. Inspiring way. That’s right.

[00:08:21] Cheryl: And I think two more would be with integrity and with insight.

[00:08:26] Chye: With integrity, honest, you practice honestly in a very honest way.

[00:08:29] Cheryl: Okay. And I think the point that you mentioned about inspiring is something very interesting because inspiring can be sometimes based on lay person’s expectations. So for example, I can feel a teacher to be inspiring because they sit in a very straight manner. But then sometimes I see another monastic member from a different tradition where they are constantly just scratching or fidgeting and they appear uninspiring.

But then I hear from other people that, Hey, this teacher is very well attained. So what exactly do you by inspiring? Is it through observing their conduct?

[00:09:07] Chye: I think there are two parts. One is observing what they say, right? How they teach and what they say, right? And Buddha is very specific about how one should teach the Dhamma.

For example, he said that the qualities of a good Dhamma speaker is one who can speak very clearly and one who can speak very logically. Clear and logical. And he also speak in a sense that it is out of compassion for people and for the benefit of people. And the fifth one is about not speaking because he wants to have anything for himself.

Right? So if you look at the qualities of a Dhamma speaker or someone who is inspiring, right? There’s nothing which talks about charisma. No, there’s nothing about charisma or how popular this person is. It’s about whether this person can guide you in a very clear way, logical way. And the thing that they speak is very beneficial to you as well.

So that’s one part about speaking the Dhamma. And second thing is about the conduct. That’s the reason why the Buddha also say that when you want to observe someone, you must observe for a time frame, whether his conduct is in sync with what he says. Let’s say this person says that I’ll keep the precepts, you must make sure that the conduct lives up to the standard of keeping the precepts of being mindful and things like that.

These are two things I observe in the Sangha. One is how they teach not in a charismatic way, but in a way that they are very clear in our teaching and beneficial to other people. And one is their conduct. Their conduct must be in a way that is inspiring in the sense that they are honest with the practice. They live up to the standard of whatever they say. So that to me is inspiring. Yeah.

[00:10:46] Cheryl: Thanks for very clearly explaining this. Yeah, because I think in the age of Facebook, I tend to find myself guilty of trusting a teacher a little bit more if they have more likes on their page, more shares, they’re more charismatic and popular and things like that.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so thanks for, for bringing it back to the sutta and reminding us clearly. And at the same time, there are also a lot of news or articles about monastic members who kind of go sideways. So sometimes when I pay respect or meet a new monk that I’ve never met before, I can tend to be a little bit skeptical.

What is the way that we should relate to monastics skillfully? What are we paying respect to when we bow down to the robes?

[00:11:33] Chye: I think we have to be very clear that when we bow to a Sangha or to a group of Sangha, it’s bowing to the whole Sangha community of the four directions. In the past, present, and future.

And that’s what the Buddha said, right? If you bow to a Sangha, they represent the Sangha community. When you bow, it’s not bowing to the person itself, but bowing to the Sangha community, the community that preserves the Dhamma, that practices the Dhamma. And the Buddha specifically said in all direction, and in all past, present, and future.

And this is very important. Why? Because it’s again that we take refuge, right? We take refuge in the Sangha. It’s not about the person. We take refuge in the qualities. and in the community who practice well and practice together, right? And it’s important because if you take refuge in a person itself, what if the person doesn’t live up to the expectation?

Then either your faith will dwindle or your faith will just fall apart and then you lose faith in the triple gem. So that’s something that I always remind people to be very careful. When you bow to the Sangha, it’s really to the community, not to the person itself. Yeah. Cause sometimes a person can fall short.

We never know.

[00:12:46] Cheryl: That’s true. We’re setting ourselves up for disappointments if we just put our faith a hundred percent in a person.

[00:12:54] Chye: Correct. That’s right.

[00:12:55] Cheryl: I’m curious, in your journey as a student of the Buddha, how to find that balance on relying on your teacher’s guidance and relying on your own wisdom and mindfulness when you meet with challenges.

[00:13:09] Chye: I think you need both. You need both. A Dhamma practice requires two parts, right? One is the knowledge. Knowledge means the Dhamma, how to practice, what to practice, and what should you be experiencing with the practice.

So these are the Dhamma knowledge, right? The knowledge itself. The other part is the practice. It means that you put this knowledge into practice, right? And when you practice well and certain experience come through your practice, that’s according to the knowledge, that’s what I call insight.

So Dhamma practice means for the knowledge and the practical side starts to gel together and that’s the insight. Okay. So that’s, that’s for me the Dhamma practice. So to me, an ideal teacher or teacher should have this two parts come together, right? He should be able to give you the instruction and he should be the one that have realized some part of the instruction.

And that’s the reason why he goes to the teacher, to ask for guidance. When we practice or when we meet with any obstacle, we go to them, right? And to me, a teacher is important as well as our own practice. Why? It’s because sometimes the mind can play a lot of tricks on us. Sometimes we find excuses or sometimes we can be too overzealous.

And so that’s why we need a teacher to really guide us and bring us back to a balance. So to me, a teacher and your own practice, it must come hand in hand together. And it must be like that. Because even the Buddha said that, you must frequently visit a Sangha or visit a community to discuss Dhamma, to share Dhamma or to talk about Dhamma. And we also know that in the Mangala Sutta, one of the highest blessings is to be able to share Dhamma or to learn Dhamma from a Sangha community or a teacher itself. Yeah.

[00:14:54] Cheryl: Was there a time where you lean too much on one end or the other?

[00:14:57] Chye: Yes and no lah. I’m a Libra right, so Libra tends to be a bit more balanced. Me too, I’m a Libra! Are you a Libra too? Yeah, I’m a Libra. So, my logical and emotional sides can be quite balanced. So for example, let’s say I really like a teacher, I learn the teaching, and I feel that I’m too attached to the teacher, then I’ll pull back.

But if you want to know when you lean too much, it’s when you follow a teacher and you find that you just believe 100 percent the teacher without verifying. That’s, I think it’s a bit too much, right?

Or you do your own practice and believe yourself too much. That you don’t go to a teacher anymore, or you don’t seek guidance anymore, and become very egoistic, right? And so that’s also a danger to realize. So, a good balance is where there is a time for us to practice. And then when you meet your obstacles, there’s a time for you to discuss Dhamma with a teacher and to seek guidance.

So that to me is a well balanced practitioner.

[00:15:49] Cheryl: Wonderful. And I resonate a lot with that. I am the type who can become quite attached to a teacher. And then sometimes I notice that my mind becomes very biased when I see teachings from other teachers or other traditions. I’ll be like, but my teacher said it better.

[00:16:06] Chye: That’s right.

[00:16:06] Cheryl: Then that’s when I know, I need to check myself on this and watch this attachment.

[00:16:12] Chye: Right, right. I mean, all these are attachments, but sometimes it’s just like that. People will get attached to things that they like. So it’s also a practice for us to realize that it’s also attachment and pull back.

[00:16:22] Cheryl: And now we move gears a little bit. Sometimes you can hear criticisms about Sangha members, but sometimes it’s unfounded. You also don’t know whether it’s true or not. And we can get a bit confused. What is a practical advice on how we can go about being skillful?

[00:16:41] Chye: I think to me it’s about okay, if that particular conversation it’s not factual, it’s not helpful and not kind. I’ll typically just ignore it. For example, people talk about, oh, no, that Sangha member he look very proud. Not factual, right? Not factual and not helpful.

So I’ll just ignore it. I’ll just avoid discussing that conversation. But having said that, I also think that sometimes we have to give a benefit of doubt to people who are saying it. We must see where the person is coming from, right? If let’s say it’s a very genuine concern about a Sangha, then probably we can discuss about it with a very open mind and see where are the facts and what are the things that the person is trying to say. Because I find that sometimes in the Buddhist community, when somebody talks about Sangha, it’s taboo, it’s bad karma, right?

So we need to provide a safe place for people to express their genuine concern about a Sangha rather than brush it off. It’s a balance between assessing whether what they’re saying is helpful, is it factual or not? Or is it a genuine concern? If it’s a genuine concern, then probably we can explore and discuss about it so that this community can thrive.

This community can grow together and be honest with each other.

[00:17:53] Cheryl: Yes. And that is very helpful advice. Because I had a conversation with a friend recently and she was feeling very troubled by the things that she’s hearing. And the first thing she feels is that, Oh no, what is going to happen to my practice if my teacher is truly like that. And then the second thing is everyone say, don’t talk about this. Don’t talk about this. It’s bad karma. Exactly. Like you mentioned.

 Negative things, we sometimes need to still bring it up in a skillful way. It’s for the longterm benefit for the community to thrive.

[00:18:25] Chye: Correct, correct. I think it’s important to create a safe space for people to really express their genuine concern.

But yet we also need to have a safe space for people who talk nonsense about Sangha, like very unhelpful, or even cast their own expectation on the Sangha, say he should like this, he should like this. So it’s a balance, right? And that balance comes with certain mindfulness. You check whether, Hey, he’s talking about this, is it helpful or is it real or is it factual?

So this is something that we had to take care of. Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:53] Cheryl: Then to what extent is it a layperson’s duty to provide feedback to monastic members?

[00:19:02] Chye: It’s. Absolutely a lay person responsibility really to me. If you go back to the Buddha’s time, most of the Vinaya came about because the lay people went and complained to the Buddha. And the Buddha said, yeah, it’s true. It shouldn’t be like that. So let me have the Vinaya rule about this. Yeah. So in the past it was like that. The lay people will go to the Buddha and feedback. So they’re like the quality control of the Sangha. And that’s how the Sangha community grow, and grow so much during the Buddha’s time.

Because there’s this mutual trust among each other that the bhikkhu teach the right Dhamma, and the lay people will also give feedback to the bhikkhus or the monastic Sangha. And to me, it’s important because we are the ones who support the Sangha. We are the ones who help the Sangha grow.

In a way, we are also responsible whether the Sangha are going the right or the wrong way. And to me, there’s a baseline. About the four Pārājika rules, right, because you know that monastic Sangha, there are different Vinaya rules, right? So if it’s about the four very serious rules that they shouldn’t breach, for me, I will just go to wherever the temple or to the place and give a feedback for them to investigate.

[00:20:09] Cheryl: It’s very clear cut on that.

[00:20:10] Chye: Yeah, that’s me. But for other things like minor issues, maybe the robes are improper, I don’t really bother. These are things that does not bring harm to other people. So my baseline is, if the conduct brings harm to other people, especially to devotees, for me, I’ll just voice out, because it’s really our responsibility to make sure that we check on each other.

So the Sangha teach us the Dhamma and we also help the Sangha to grow in a pure way.

[00:20:34] Cheryl: Thank you very much Brother Chye Chye for today’s short and snazzy episode where we learn how to relate to the Sangha skillfully, what it means to take refuge.

And I hope to all our listeners, you take away one or two points that help you to improve your practice and to continue to grow together with the Sangha community both in the external form as well as the internal qualities within yourself. Any last words?

[00:20:59] Chye: Yes. If you are interested in, I mean to me, if you want to grow in the Dhamma, have a relationship with Sangha, I think it’s good also to know what their rules are.

Right. A book that’s quite interesting, it’s called The Bhikkhu Rules for lay people. So it summarizes how should they conduct themselves and what are the rules and things like that. When you read all these rules, you’ll find that you’re very inspired by them because it’s such a thorough training for the monastic. So both ways, when you know it, you will roughly know how is it like, and you’ll also be inspired by the community.

[00:21:31] Cheryl: Thank you so much, Brother Chye Chye and to all listeners, see you again in the next episode.

Resources:

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen

Editor and transcriber of this episode: 

Cheryl Cheah, Susara Ng, Ke Hui Tee

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Buddhism vs. Spirituality: When to Call Yourself A Buddhist? ft. Ray Choo (Director and Producer of Waking Up 2050)

Buddhism vs. Spirituality: When to Call Yourself A Buddhist? ft. Ray Choo (Director and Producer of Waking Up 2050)

by | Apr 21, 2024 | Podcast

Summary:

In our newest episode, we delve into the intricate journey of spiritual identity with our special guest, Ray Choo, director and producer of Waking Up 2050 🎬. From his personal experiences to the broader concepts of Buddhism, Ray sheds light on embracing the Buddhist identity as a commitment to the path of wisdom and compassion, and unravel the evolving perceptions of religion and spirituality in today’s world.

About the Speakers

👤 Ray Choo Hongrui was born and raised in Singapore. He studied Communications Design in Berlin, Germany, at HTW Berlin-University of Applied Sciences where he had the opportunity to try his hand at filmmaking and storytelling and experience a world where Buddhism, its meanings and functions are not established. The conversation in the West is just gaining momentum and presence. In trying to contribute to this dialogue, Ray redefined for himself what it means, to walk the path of Dharma. Through WAKING UP 2050, he met his teacher Lopen Pema Deki with whom he took his precepts and continues to study the Dharma. Ray currently works and resides in Berlin as a motion designer.

Key Takeaways:

The Journey of Embracing the Buddhist Identity

Ray’s narrative unveils the intricate journey of self-identification as a Buddhist. Despite being born into a Buddhist family, he embarked on a profound exploration of his spiritual identity. Through pivotal life events, including his father’s stroke and the sudden loss of a friend, Ray found himself grappling with the essence of Buddhism and its relevance in his life. His decision to formally take refuge in Buddhism was not merely a label but a commitment to a path of wisdom and compassion.

The Practicality of Buddhist Practice

The conversation emphasizes the practicality of Buddhist teachings in navigating life’s challenges. Ray vividly recounts instances where his newfound Buddhist perspective provided solace and guidance to those around him. From offering comfort to grieving friends to sharing insights on the grieving process, Ray illustrates how Buddhist principles transcend mere rituals, offering tangible support and wisdom in times of need. Buddhism, as Ray articulates, is not confined to temples or scriptures but is deeply embedded in the fabric of everyday life, offering practical tools for navigating its complexities.

Embracing the Journey with Openness

A recurring theme throughout the conversation is the importance of embracing the journey of self-discovery and spiritual growth with openness and humility. Kai Xin and Ray explore the nuances of spiritual identity, challenging conventional notions of labels and boxes. While acknowledging the significance of formal ceremonies like taking refuge, they also underscore the fluidity of spiritual exploration. Buddhism, as they affirm, is not a rigid structure but a dynamic path that evolves with each individual’s journey.

In essence, the conversation between Kai Xin and Ray Choo serves as a poignant reminder of the multifaceted nature of Buddhism and the profound impact it can have on one’s life. Beyond labels and rituals, Buddhism offers a transformative journey towards wisdom, compassion, and self-realization. As Ray eloquently concludes, it is not about reaching a destination but embracing the path with sincerity and an open heart.

Transcript:

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Kai Xin: All right. Today we have a very special guest on our Handful of Leaves podcast where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life. We have Ray with us whom I’ve met at THIS Buddhist Film Fest last year, 2023. He is the director and producer of Waking Up 2050. So welcome Ray to our podcast.

[00:00:21] Ray Choo: Thanks so much for having me. I’m so flattered and honored to be here that you want to hear my thoughts.

[00:00:27] Kai Xin: No, I mean, I feel honored to have you here. So what is Waking Up 2050?

[00:00:34] Ray Choo: Waking Up 2050 is a contemplation about Buddhism, its relevance in the hypothetical future, far future and the very present examined through perspectives of truth, kindness, and beauty.

[00:00:45] Kai Xin: In the film, you actually interviewed a few people to share their thoughts about what it means to be Buddhist, right? And it was interesting to me that after the film was screened, we had this post-dialogue and you said that it was only recently that you identified yourself as one. So I’m very curious as to what made you decide that I can call myself a Buddhist now?

[00:01:08] Ray Choo: If it only was like just waking up to be like, Oh, here I am. No. On paper, I was always Buddhist. But only two years ago I’ve taken refuge and committed myself in ceremony to this identity. The opportunity came up when, my teacher, Lopen Pema Deki, offered it to the Sangha. And thankfully I was in the right mindset to see the importance of it and say, okay, yes, I’ll do it. My parents, they’ll say that it’s just ritual. You don’t need to take refuge. It’s all superficial, superstitious. You just need to have it in your heart. What’s up, what’s with all the fuss, right? But for me, leading to that moment to see the significance and the gravity of taking refuge was a lifetime or maybe many lifetimes of experiences and events.

Quite often it is when life takes a difficult turn that you see where your mind is at. Yeah, some major events in my life made me feel ready at that moment. So in 2019, my father had a stroke and at that time I was still in Berlin. I think it was April Fool’s Day. I just started my first day at work and I had to get the first flight back. On the long way back home, I’ve never prayed so hard in my life. So much for a rational Buddhist, right? I was just praying to Guan Yin, Tara. And whether or not it was because of my prayers, my dad survived the stroke. I think it’s not a thing learned in a moment. It’s like a childhood of going to temples and at that moment it helped me, where logic and rationality have no place. You cannot do anything about it. Even then I didn’t officially call myself a Buddhist.

So, in 2021, a few years later… I don’t know if you’re familiar with the film John Wick. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s kind of like a wild caricature experience of samsara, you know? So at that time I just finished school and I was looking for a job and a friend said, Hey, there’s a gig for quick money. Do you want to come along and just show up? I said, okay, fine. I’ll show up. I had to show up to this crazy set. It was being a movie extra on the set. I was dressed up in crazy colorful clothes. You have crazy lighting and you have people fighting everywhere, beautiful bodies moving and Keanu Reeves not dying, whatever they do to him.

And one of the other extras there I’ve met. So it was like a nine-day shooting. She’s this young German girl. We got on really well. There’s a lot of waiting in between every take and you can start to talk. She’s just starting her school studies being a social worker and she’s a great dancer. She’s a passionate dancer. So this young, vibrant life, right. When the filming wrapped up, in a WhatsApp group, we were just going to meet at this bar. And then came this message, Hey, sorry guys, but Leila’s in hospital. but before we could even process, a few hours later, the boyfriend said, she’s gone. We hear about death, we know people die, but it’s the first time to have that loss in front of my eyes.

So it’s very harrowing, even thinking about it now after so many years. But then I thought, oh, okay, what can I do? I’m sort of Buddhist, what can I do to help? Even without formal training, you sort of know, okay, after death there’s this process, right? I was sort of perplexed. Do I go Namo Amitabha? Like, would she know? Because she’s just German, she’s atheist. Like how would it help? So at that point Pema Deki was already my teacher. So I was just very lucky to be able to just message her and say, hey, this happened, what can I do? So she guided me and… I think in that moment, it became clear to me that, we always talk about precious human life, right? It’s just words until you really see a young, precious human life just gone and you’re faced with your own mortality.

 So Lopen Pema Deki, she taught me how to help her as much as I can without the Buddhist context. And then a few months later, again, I was confronted with the passing of a dear friend and it’s different this time. He is someone who lived to 82. He lived a long life. He saw me as his own son. Again, I got hit with, okay, someone dear to me is leaving. What can I do? Again, he’s not Buddhist, right? But then, what’s comforting for me was that even when his family, his sons, they aren’t Buddhist, I was able to offer that prayer and offer sort of guidance in the process. Okay, here’s what I’ve learned, the next 7 days, theoretically, this is what happens. We should do this. We should offer our thoughts, remind him of his good deeds in his life.

Even in a very non-Buddhist way, like, there’s no mention of Avalokiteshvara or anything, it helped them. It helped me also to face death. It’s a huge process, right? And having that knowledge, having that skill, I was able to be calm, and also extend that calmness, maybe also not make the situation worse. There is a program of action. Like, okay, this happens, what can we do? I could offer this. So when the moment came from my teacher, I said, okay I would offer a refuge ceremony. In my heart it’s a definite yes. Because I see the necessity to commit myself to the training for my parents, for friends, for loved ones or other people. I want to be able to be skillful and to be able to provide support in those situations. And so yeah… sorry, that’s a really long answer.

[00:06:19] Kai Xin: No, it’s beautiful how things unfold. You were born a Buddhist like on paper. Same as I am. But innately you’re already having faith of this thing beyond ourselves, right? That prayers work, there’s some form of faith that divine intervention does work, and our sincerity in sending our good wishes to people. So you have all those things. And then what you saw was the divine messengers in the Buddhist context. We see old age, sickness and death. And you met two of those very, very upclose. And it got you to think like, wow, life is very transient.

So when the opportunity struck for you to formally commit, and I guess it’s also like an accountability ceremony, I can’t take this just as a joke. Sometimes I want to be a little bit better. Some days I want not to be so wholesome. It’s like, okay, I’m Buddhist. I’m walking a Buddhist path and there’s benefit, not just to ourselves, but to other people. And for you, it almost seemed like you were more motivated because committing to the training helps you to support the people around you.

[00:07:21] Ray Choo: Yeah, definitely. That’s definitely a pragmatic and practical aspect to it. Compassion and wisdom, they’re not fuzzy, fluffy ideas. They have a practical function. Even Buddhist rituals, we dismiss them very easily, we look down on them. But then, there are domains in life where rationality has its limits and in those intuitive and emotional parts of life, you need wisdom. You need to learn how to cope and use it constructively. I was just thankful that I had this Buddhist experience, even though it was maybe messy and not focused. But you know, when life puts obstacles in your face and even though it’s not clear yet, I do see the point of this goal. Yeah.

[00:08:05] Kai Xin: Yeah. It’s interesting because my path was a little bit different. So for you, you took the official ceremony in order to be like, okay, I’m a Buddhist now. Right. I’m committed. Yeah. There wasn’t really like a day where I feel like, okay, I am one. But I suppose the closest thing was when I went to the Buddhist center at a youth service and then we had to read the five precepts.

[00:08:29] Ray Choo: Right. Yeah.

[00:08:29] Kai Xin: And it felt like it’s not a commandment, but it’s kind of like an aspiration that, hey, you know, I’m going to try to refrain from all these not-so-wholesome acts. And there is power in reciting those because I need to be accountable to myself. And this is a constant reminder when I do it every week. Some people might feel like the formal ceremony of going to take refuge is not so important because I think that’s more prominent in some traditions, like the Tibetan and the Mahayana. For the Theravada tradition, maybe the more formal ceremony would be to don the robes and shave your head maybe temporarily or permanently, not sure. But while we don’t need this formal ceremony to say, okay, you’re a Buddhist now, it does have some form of symbolic meaning to help us practise and walk the path. But having said that also, it’s not to say like, okay, now I have the certificate or I’ve taken refuge. I can break the precepts and not practice virtue as well as concentration and wisdom. It’s like a constant thing. Sometimes we fall behind, sometimes we backslide and then we stand up again.

So I’m very curious about how do you define what a Buddhist or a good Buddhist is? Is it about like being able to pray or like when your friends are in need?

[00:09:49] Ray Choo: No, that’s just like the side effects. I think the main thing is commitment, not to an external divine being or some abstract idea, but you know, it’s like anything, right? Even doctors have to take vows. It’s really about taking responsibility to actually know that this is my path to walk and there’s no one else to blame. It’s my actions. It’s what I do from now on, right.

It’s in a way like growing up. I think in all aspects of life, the moment you take on responsibility, accountability, then you’re starting to grow up. Being Buddhist is not about, I just go to temple when things are fine or not fine. It’s all day, every day, it’s a cultivation.

And to answer your question of how do I define a Buddhist? I actually have to go and ask my teacher because I think we all know the standard definition of a Buddhist, right? Like someone who has taken refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Or someone who was born in a Buddhist country. So more like countries in Thailand, Bhutan, where Buddhism is the fabric of life. Or people who have the view, right?

But when you ask me this question there’s this big elephant in the room. What about people who, like me, as a kid, I just go to the temple without having this clear thought of, okay, I’m going to a temple for Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. I didn’t have that as a kid, but does that count? I actually had to consult my teacher and she said, short answer, yes. Because if you go to the temple, even to a Guanyin temple, there are Dharma texts there and Guanyin is also an embodiment of Buddha and noble Sangha, right? (Guan Yin is a) Bodhisattva, and she has a Buddha on the crown. And also the custodians, the people working at the temple, the Sangha, so the monastics there. So in a very subtle, basic level, yes, I think that still counts as Buddhist. but I think

[00:11:38] Kai Xin: And then what is the non basic level?

[00:11:40] Ray Choo: The non basic level, I think like for you and for me, when we decide to take on that responsibility, I think that brings us to another level where it’s more, for lack of a better word, more powerful. You’re more conscious of what you’re doing. It’s not so random anymore. You know, it’s a conscious effort. Like, I want to be a conscious agent of wisdom and compassion, right? I want to put this into my life.

[00:12:00] Kai Xin: We truly see the benefits of it as well, instead of just going with the motion of like the rites and the rituals without knowing what the meaning is. But it’s more of like the wisdom piece, which you mentioned quite a few times, right?

Like what is the ultimate goal? It’s to free ourselves from greed, hatred, and delusion. And how do we do that? Avoid evil, do good and purify the mind. So it is the path. The Buddha has laid out the Noble Eightfold Path and all Buddhas have taught the same thing. It’s like slowly erasing the delusion that we have, and then the sense of urgency and responsibility to practice becomes even more because we know that, I’m still subject to old age, sickness and death. And as long as I am still in the cycle of birth and death, I can’t be freed from this. So we know we’ve got things to do. Yeah. Like the Buddha has really given us the cure, right? We are considered as patients and he’s the doctor, why don’t we take his medicine, which is very, very effective.

[00:13:00] Ray Choo: And also by taking refuge, it’s not like a level-up. But it’s more like I’ve taken refuge and then I realized that there’s still so much more to learn. I think wherever any Buddhists are at it’s good to have moments of reflection and to check-in with yourself. Where am I now? Where’s my mind at now? Because that informs all your actions, your relationships with your parents, your friends.

[00:13:23] Kai Xin: Would you say that after you have gone through the formal ceremony, you’re a little bit different from before? Before you formally identify yourself as a Buddhist?

[00:13:32] Ray Choo: I’ve got three heads and six arms now.

[00:13:34] Kai Xin: More special abilities.

[00:13:39] Ray Choo: I can levitate. No. In some ways, nothing’s changed, I’m still me. But in many ways, I think it changed. I think my confidence of saying, yes, I’m a Buddhist, it also gave them the confidence to approach me when they come to a difficulty. I feel so lucky that I was able to be their support even if it’s not just solving their problems. With even the limited amount of Buddhist training I’ve had so far, and I was able to skillfully see, okay, what do they need in this moment? Do they just need someone to listen or it’s not necessarily solving their problems. Like when my colleague, their dog died, they didn’t know what to do. And they know that I’m Buddhist so they approached me and said, like, what do we do?

[00:14:18] Kai Xin: It brings comfort, right? Like being able to do something. Even though it’s not logical at all, like it’s not going to resurrect the pet or anything like that, but it has a very powerful effect.

[00:14:29] Ray Choo: Yeah, we shouldn’t underestimate the grieving process, dealing with death. We are so bad at goodbyes. We sort of like wish it away, there’s no goodbye. But I think it’s important to do a good goodbye.

I told him sort of about like the 49 days, about the seven days. Having this vague structure, it gave them a protocol to work on their grief, you know? I felt very, very lucky that I was able to provide that at that point. So there are these kind of benefits, being confident as to call yourself a Buddhist. You can apply yourself with more focus. You see a problem and you can go to the solution and not like guess what I can do.

[00:15:02] Kai Xin: I can resonate with that because I used to be very shy about this, like calling myself a Buddhist. I’m like, Oh, every weekend I go to the Buddhist center, I volunteer. Because it’s such an unfamiliar thing for a young adult to be doing. And I was afraid that I would weird people out.

[00:15:20] Ray Choo: Right. Yeah.

[00:15:21] Kai Xin: And the funny thing was when I started becoming more open and identifying myself as one and being okay with one. People come to me like, Hey, you know, I have this trouble, can you give me some suggestions. I think late last year, some of my primary school or secondary school friends, somehow we were connected on Instagram like many years ago. They saw me actively posting about Buddhist reflections. And then he asked me like, Hey, you know where can I learn more of this or I’d like to volunteer? And they were really sincere about it. So yeah, I thought it’s not a bad thing after all, because if people are searching, then you can be the source for them to share insights and wisdom or direct them to some better teachers.

Having that focus, which you mentioned is like, what do I use as a guide in my daily actions? What do I prioritize? Now it becomes very clear that, okay, in my day, are my activities to reduce greed, hatred, and delusion. Am I entangled in this world and getting distracted and intoxicated with my youth thinking that I have all the time in the world. And then I might still end up scrolling on social media and stuff. But then having that recollection to say, Hey, this is like Mara, the devil playing tricks on our mind. And then having that perseverance and knowing that, Hey, we’ve also got friends on the path with that same goal and same dedication and commitment. I can use them as an inspiration, then it becomes very motivating in some sense, rather than, like you say, very fuzzy, like, Oh, am I, am I not? Cause I know some people, they might not necessarily be very inclined to calling themselves a Buddhist, right? But yeah, I like Buddhist philosophy, so they might subscribe to different teachings.

So I’m not so sure on your thoughts about that. Do you think it’s absolutely important for one to at some point, consider themselves a Buddhist?

[00:17:12] Ray Choo: If it motivates them to take refuge and behave like a Buddhist. If that motivates them to do it, then yes. Then identify to your heart’s content. You’re committing to being a good human being in a skillful Buddhist way, and there’s nothing shameful about it. But I totally understand, you know, I grew up in Singapore as well, and I know till today there’s this huge cultural and social taboo. Like you don’t speak up about religion, right? Even some of my dear friends, very dear friends, I told them, Hey I’ve made a documentary about Buddhism. Here’s the link. Till today they have not seen it, you know, ’cause it’s religion.

So, I absolutely get the hesitance to be open about it that way. But as a Buddhist now, of course I’d be skillful. You have to see what’s the context. But I think in Europe, I’m kind of lucky in the sense that Buddhism has a good rep in a way. They see it as something more progressive and scientific. So there’s no baggage, so that’s lucky for me. But I do see the difficulties in the Asian context, in Singapore. When I took refuge, even my mom, her first reaction was, Oh, are you joining a cult?

[00:18:14] Kai Xin: Oh, interesting. But she was the one who brought you to temples, right?

[00:18:18] Ray Choo: That’s a strange thing, right? I think that’s a strange thing. In Singapore, we see temples, we see statues, but again, it’s familiar, but very foreign. Just because of this taboo thing, we don’t talk about it. It’s like Harry Potter and Voldemort, right? Like, he who shall not be named, we don’t talk about it. And I think with time, you sort of lose that connection to what it’s actually meant for, the functions and its meaning, its purpose. I think that’s also why young adults lose interest in Buddhism, right? Because it’s sort of in your face, but I don’t really know what it is, so I reject it because I don’t understand it. It’s purpose, it’s place in my life sort of got pushed into a very private thing. And what do we do in our private lives? We go to shopping malls and whatever we do.

So it’s very neglected. And I think that’s part of the development of modernization, right? You have the separation of secularity where religion or faith gets boxed into a very private thing. In terms of practicing Buddhism, for example, you lose connection to this tradition, I think.

[00:19:18] Kai Xin: What if someone says that, I can call myself spiritual rather than identifying with any religion because as a spiritual person, I mean, the definition is to seek out for the truth, right? It’s pretty much quite similar. You believe that there’s something beyond the self and you want to improve your own wellbeing and reach your fullest potential, et cetera. Then, would it be okay to call myself spiritual rather than religious or Buddhist?

[00:19:44] Ray Choo: Well, in the Buddhist point of view, anything’s okay. As long as, it puts you in the right view and right motivation. But, when I was younger, I was one of those people that said, Oh, I’m spiritual, I’m not religious. But I think it’s somehow a complicated thing as well. I found this out when I was doing research for the documentary. We have to be aware that they’re very modern terms. This split from religion and spirituality, it’s an academic split that came from the 90s.

[00:20:14] Kai Xin: Oh, so recent?

[00:20:15] Ray Choo: Yeah, very recent. Because they’ve been trying to define religion for many years. And then there’s this split where religion is something pertaining to God, right? It’s something that the worshiper worships externally to a higher being. And spirituality, which is I guess the rest. It includes Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, where it’s about the individual inward looking to find the sacred within. So that’s the definition of these two. And just briefly about religion. I think for any Buddhist or anyone interested in religion, there’s this scholar called Karen Armstrong, very erudite, very eloquent scholar. She wrote, there are many kinds of definitions about religion, right? And I think she put it in a very succinct way.

Religion is an art. You know, religion and scriptures, it’s an art. But art doesn’t mean that it’s not true. It doesn’t mean that it’s just fluff. Karen Armstrong, she says, in the pre-modern world, before modernity, there are two sort of ways of thinking. You have the mythological way and the logical way, Logos. Logos is where science is really good at, rationality, measurements, description of reality. But you have also mythos. I think some academics also try to remove it, but you really can’t. This superstition or emotional, irrational part of the human consciousness. That’s why we have so many legends, so many myths, right?

That’s like pre-modern psychology. And so we have to recognize that. The term for religion as a concept, as a modern invention, it started late 17th century, 18th century. So if you look in Greek or Latin, there’s no equivalent for the word religion. Like maybe Latin credo is I believe, but originally it’s called cordo, so to give your heart to something. So religion was never really about proclaiming I believe in whatever. It’s about giving your heart, committing to something. So this commitment, this action. Karen Armstrong defined it as a program of action. Religion, spirituality, it’s something that you work at. So it’s a practice. And I think we have to recognize that. And I think back in my youth when I was saying, Oh, I’m spiritual. I think it came from also the idea that… so we’ve got actual definitions, right? But I think back then I didn’t notice those definitions. And for me, and I think for many people, religion is something about control and it’s something backward and spirituality is like I get to decide what I want.

[00:22:46] Kai Xin: Yeah it feels more fluid. Cause religion kind of puts you in a box, right? It feels like you have to be obligated to do certain rituals, abide by the rules. And then it can be quite suffocating for some people, especially the younger generations who like to rebel and own their personality, like activism and rights and all of these, like a freedom of expression.

[00:23:07] Ray Choo: That’s kind of funny. But in a way, instead of I reject that box, I put myself in another box, spirituality.

[00:23:13] Kai Xin: That is true.

[00:23:15] Ray Choo: But I can definitely relate. I think everyone have had that stage in life where we went, let’s tear down the old and make something new, that notion we can all relate to. In the sense that the grass is always greener, right? I’ll adopt something different and call it my own. I guess it’s part of the consumer culture thing. We are so good at picking and choosing, I get to cherry pick. I decide what is useful for me, which is good in some sense, you work out what you need. But I think it’s easy to lose a sense of reverence for something that has thousands of years of human history and human lives working at it. Right? Who are we to just say, no, I can do better. I think it’s like arrogance of youth.

[00:23:52] Kai Xin: I don’t necessarily agree with that because the Buddha actually set out in search for the truth because he was like, yeah, there must be something better out there.

[00:24:00] Ray Choo: Yes, yes. He also set out in search for truth in terms of also rebelling against what he had. So this disruption is necessary. Well, at least the way I did when I was younger, like saying I’m spiritual, it is a disruption, but it’s not skillful. You know, it’s like…

[00:24:16] Kai Xin: I get what you mean.

[00:24:18] Ray Choo: I rejected, but I don’t do anything, I don’t have a good alternative to it you know. Instead I’m just at the doors and looking for other doors. That was the state I was in.

[00:24:29] Kai Xin: Right? Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that because I know some people also do see Buddhism as like a religion. And some people say like, no, it’s not a religion because we don’t believe in like the ultimate creator. And it’s really more of like a practice, an inner journey, an inner search. But then we do have rituals as a means to help us kind of still our mind and also cultivate wisdom. So I would say you’re right to say that sometimes when we put ourself in a box, it becomes problematic because there are just certain things that goes beyond logic and you can’t really use all these conventions and words to describe. But the focus is the same, right? You mentioned commitment many times. Like what makes us Buddhists or why is it important for us to call ourselves Buddhists? It’s only when it motivates us to act like one, which is do good, avoid evil, and purify the mind. And the benefit of that is you get a better life and people around you also get a better life because you are an improved version of yourself, like 2.0 or 3.0.

[00:25:32] Ray Choo: Yeah. So you can also argue that, Buddhism itself is a box. But this box is a beautiful box. It has a very beautiful destination, you know? Like provisionally it’s as helpful. Like anything, like any label. Labels are labels, but if that label helps you to be a better Buddhist, to be a better person, then by all means, right? If it opens up wisdom, if it makes you be wiser, kinder, then it is helpful and it is skillful. Yeah.

[00:26:00] Kai Xin: Yeah. And they also say to cross to the other shore, which is to attain Nibbana, ultimately, we also have to let go of that box or like the raft.

[00:26:08] Ray Choo: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:26:09] Kai Xin: Right. The very fetter that binds us to the cycle of birth and death is wanting to become or not wanting to become. And that form of self, like I am, this is mine. Sometimes it feels like a paradox, but it’s also very beautiful because it’s exactly that, that the journey of the practice evolves. So from not having a label to finding importance of identifying with a label and then seeing the benefits and then slowly letting that go. Yeah. And it’s not a linear thing.

[00:26:40] Ray Choo: No, exactly not. I think that’s also the thing about the modern mind, right? We’d like to see everything from point A to B, or just have things very simplified, or in bullet form. But, you know, I think Buddhism sort of speaks to people, because we’re all at different levels, right? And we always talk about how the Buddha has 84,000 methods because we are all at different stages of our mind, and we all have different needs.

[00:27:04] Kai Xin: So it’s not linear and everyone has a very different path, but the conventional destination is the same, which is to be free. So I hope this episode and this conversation does bring our audience some clarity and whether is it important to identify yourself as a Buddhist or not, it’s really up to you. Do you have any final advice for our listeners?

[00:27:28] Ray Choo: Yeah, I think for people who have hangups about taking refuge, I think there’s also this fear of commitment and fear of losing freedom. But, I think taking refuge, you have to ask yourself, how do you define freedom? Is watching Netflix your idea of freedom? And just investigate, find out what taking refuge actually means. For anyone who’s curious or interested in Buddhism, it’s fine to read books and stuff to gather knowledge. But I think ultimately it’s something you have to do. You have to walk it. You can learn, you can read all about swimming. But never touching water, then there’s a big disconnect, right? You have to jump into the pool and get wet, you know…

[00:28:03] Kai Xin: and you have to struggle first. Yeah. I know some people, they have the concept like, I can’t meditate, you know, my mind is restless. I can’t call myself a Buddhist. I’m not cut out for meditation or I still like to drink. I sometimes break the precepts. So nah, I can’t commit.

[00:28:17] Ray Choo: Yeah. And I think we have to remind ourselves that the Buddha didn’t just achieve all that in one lifetime, right? He spent many lifetimes, aeons, to get to that point. And we are all trying in our imperfect ways to follow his footsteps. My teacher always reminds us, just relax and do your best to just bring your mind back to what is important. All that elaboration, just drop it. Just focus.

[00:28:41] Kai Xin: Yeah, that’s very beautiful.

[00:28:43] Ray Choo: And I guess the final word for anyone who’s still wondering, just know that the time is now. And I wish I’ve done it earlier in life when I’m younger. I could memorize more things. There’s so much to learn now. I wish I could learn this when I’m in a younger mind. Yeah. So yeah, the time is now. If you’re wondering, if you’re curious, just take it.

[00:29:02] Kai Xin: Thank you for sharing. Very beautiful. So we covered a lot about what it means to be a Buddhist and the historic journey and transformation of how we came to be, how spirituality and religion became so prevalent as two words.

But it’s actually only very recently that these are kind of introduced to us from the academic standpoint. So that was interesting. And whether is it really important to call yourself a Buddhist? You the listeners can share with us in the comment section below. And thank you so much, Ray for sharing. For our listeners and audience, if you want to check out the documentary Waking Up 2050, can they find us online?

[00:29:43] Ray Choo: No, not yet. But I think soon there’ll be an opportunity to see it again online.

[00:29:47] Kai Xin: Okay, fantastic. And we’ll keep our audience posted.

[00:29:51] Ray Choo: Definitely.

[00:29:51] Kai Xin: All right. And until the next episode, may you stay happy and wise. Thank you.

[00:29:56] Ray Choo: Thank you.

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