Why a 31-Years-Old Singaporean Techie Chose the Monk Life ft. Phra Ryan

Why a 31-Years-Old Singaporean Techie Chose the Monk Life ft. Phra Ryan

https://youtu.be/cSxXcXuxg6c


Summary

In this intimate and reflective conversation, Phra Ryan shares his transformative journey from the bustling tech world of Singapore to the serene life of a novice Buddhist monk in Thailand. He recounts his early exposure to Buddhism, his time at Wat Pah Nanachat, and his eventual ordination at Wat Marp Jan under Luang Por Anan. Through moments of honesty and vulnerability, Phra Ryan explores what drew him toward monastic life — the search for peace, meaning, and freedom from material attachment. He opens up about family challenges, self-doubt, and the profound teachings that anchor his path, offering listeners a deeply human perspective on spirituality, purpose, and inner peace.


About the Speaker

Halfway through university, Ryan embarked on a spiritual journey into the deeper meaning of life, and found himself drawn towards Buddhism during a silent retreat in the Australian bush, which marked the beginning of an eight-year long journey into monk-hood. This is his story.


Key Takeaways

The Journey From Material Success to Spiritual Fulfillment

Phra Ryan’s story illustrates the inner dissatisfaction that can exist even amid external comfort. Despite a stable career in IT and the privileges of modern life, he felt a void that wealth and achievement couldn’t fill. His turn toward ordination represents a universal search for meaning beyond material success — a reminder that peace often lies in letting go rather than gaining more.

Letting Go of Attachment Is the Core of Peace

Through his teacher Luang Por’s insights, Phra Ryan explains that our ordinary, unmindful state is already a form of “craziness” — clinging to the body, feelings, and thoughts that create suffering. True practice is about freeing the mind from these attachments. This realization bridges ancient Buddhist wisdom with modern psychological insight, offering a pathway for anyone — monk or layperson — to find greater calm and clarity.

Faith, Discipline, and Humility on the Path

Even after ordaining, Phra Ryan admits to feelings of “imposter syndrome” — acknowledging the gap between the monk’s robe he wears and the inner transformation he’s still cultivating. His humility and devotion to continuous practice reveal that the spiritual journey isn’t about perfection, but about sincere effort and faith in the process.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Normally, when we are not mindful in our daily life, we are already quite crazy. Truth be told, a lot of monks do disrobe, but we’ll see how it goes. Actually feeling a bit nervous wearing these robes because at this moment, I’m not yet a monk. Although I look like a monk, but actually I’m still a novice monk, or we call it Samanera. So I haven’t actually been here that long. I’ve only been here since Monday. And today’s Sunday, so that makes a week.

[00:00:44] I actually feel quite relieved in a way. Because the whole week has been anticipating this moment. In a way, I’ve been anticipating it for quite a few years already. I had this wish in my heart that I would ordain. And now that I finally ordained at least halfway, I am actually very relieved and quite comfortable in a way. I’m not so stressed because of my desire to ordain as I was in the past. Because when I was in Singapore, I couldn’t really pursue this path.

[00:01:17] But now that I am trying it out for real. I can really see that, this is something that I would want to do at least for the foreseeable future.

[00:01:30] Yeah. So my journey actually began eight years ago. I met Ajahn Dhammasiha, who is the abbot of Dhammagiri Forest Hermitage in Australia. He actually visited Singapore back in 2014. But somehow, halfway through uni, I met a Burmese man who then told me that he used to be a monk. I was quite intrigued by that fact.

[00:01:57] And I thought, “Oh, wow! Maybe I could try out doing some kind of a silent retreat.” Because at that time I wasn’t Buddhist, I wasn’t spiritual in any sense. But I thought that it would be nice to have this quiet time in the forest. It sounded quite idyllic at the time because Singapore is a city with so many buildings and concrete.

[00:02:17] So I wanted to get out of the city and into the forest. I went to Australia and I met Ajahn Dhammasiha. And I stayed there for 23 days. Within that 23 days, I read so many books. I learned about Luang Pu Chah. I somehow garner a lot of faith in the Buddha and I eventually took up the triple refuge. In fact, even within those 23 days, I already started to feel like, “oh, okay. I might consider ordination at some point in the future.”

[00:02:47] So this is me trying to pursue that path eight years later.

[00:02:59] I was previously an Anagarika (white robes) in Wat Pah Nanachat. This was in 2018, so six years ago. I managed to stay there for six months. Part of it I was Anagarika, or they call it “Pa Kao”, which meant that I wore something similar but in white. That was a trial period for me to see if ordination could be something that’s suitable. Because before that, I’ve never really been in a Buddhist setting very much, having just taken up Buddhism two years before that.

[00:03:32] During my time at Wat Pah Nanachat, the main thing I took away from that was that I wasn’t entirely incompatible with this path. After that, my parents actually came. My mom brought my grandparents to bring me home. I was okay with that because I did plan for only six months at the time.

[00:03:49] So I went back to Singapore and I worked for five years in the IT industry. And all throughout that time, I had this idea of going back to ordain at some point. Also, my mother and I had some residential issues, so that was the main thing I needed to address. I would say most of my preparation really involved that residential issue to the point that my mom has pretty much settled in just a month ago so that I can finally come to ordain based on my agreement with my mother.

[00:04:26] As a novice monk, I only take 10 precepts. So that makes my life relatively easier. During this period of being a novice monk, I’m supposed to train myself up and understand the ways of a monk so that eventually (I can) fully ordain as a monk. And take up the entire set of rules all together.

[00:04:49] Six years ago, pursuing the path of ordination, I really hoped that I could stay in the robes as long as I can. Ideally all my life. But who knows? Truth be told, a lot of monks do disrobe, but we’ll see how it goes.

[00:05:07] On one hand, I grew up in a very privileged setting in Singapore. I think quite a lot of people can probably relate. We are quite materially well off in Singapore. We don’t really have much lack in any way. So that’s the way that I grew up. And yet as I was growing up during my early twenties, I felt that I wasn’t a very satisfied person. I was in relationships. I also had quite a number of friends and we went to party and do all the things that young kids do. And yet I didn’t really feel like I was a very happy person. At the same time, those were the years that I was considering what would be my path in the future? What do I really want to be in the future?

[00:05:52] So I did this search. I went to read up books about famous people. I went to read Lee Kuan Yew’s book, “The Singapore Story”. I went to read the biography of Elon Musk, thinking that, these are such great people that are very much admired in society and people want to be like them.

[00:06:08] I asked myself, “Would I like to be like them in the future?”

[00:06:10] I actually did pursue that to a little bit. I actually joined the political association in university. I studied computer science thinking that I might do tech, and I did join the IT industry. However, along the way I found that the people that really inspired me most were the Buddha and the monks.

[00:06:32] I gained this aspiration that if I could just be a little bit more like them, then that would be good enough for me. Like if I could just be half of some of the great teachers that I have in my heart today, I would die a very satisfied person.

[00:06:53] So it depends which family and which friend. I think obviously the closest family members would be my parents. It took my mom a long time to come around to give me permission. I wouldn’t say that she’s entirely supportive of what I’m doing given that she has another faith in a different religion.

[00:07:16] However, to me, I felt that we had to come to some kind of middle ground. I mentioned earlier there was this residential issue that I’ve been spending the past few years settling. So the agreement was that I would help her with all of my ability to settle that residential issue. And kind of in return, she would actually give me permission to ordain. And that was for my mom.

[00:07:43] For my dad, he has always been quite liberal. He grew up in quite the same way, wanting to have a lot of freedom. So even when I left for Wat Pah Nanachat in 2018, he was actually okay with it. Even now, although again he’s not entirely supportive— he would probably prefer that I do something else— but he’s still willing to let me do what I want. Simply because that’s what he was given the freedom to do in his own youth. As for my friends, definitely the Buddhist friends, they’re very supportive and I’m very grateful for that.

[00:08:18] However, most of my other friends not in the Buddhist community, they probably have some difficulty understanding what I’m doing. I managed to explain a little bit to some of them, though I have no idea how much they would really sympathize with what I’m saying. But in some way, I do hope that what I’m doing would benefit them a little bit. In terms of, maybe inspiring them to think about values that may not be entirely materialistic in nature.

[00:08:54] During my first few days here, Luang Por actually mentioned that to one of the lay residents or retreatants who came from America. The question to Luang Por was, “What is the purpose of this practice?”

[00:09:11] The person asking the question also mentioned that, “How do I practice so that I don’t go crazy?”

[00:09:15] So Luang Por gave a very interesting answer. Luang Por actually mentioned that normally when we are not mindful in our daily life, we are already quite crazy. We are crazy because we so quickly attach to all these five aggregates, we call it. The body, the perception, to feeling, to mental formations, to consciousness. So that’s the natural state of how we live in a day-to-day life.

[00:09:43] We don’t see how it causes us to suffer normally. So the Buddhist path is really one of letting go of our attachments to these things. And that was what Luang Por said as well. That’s what really the goal of this practice is really to cultivate a mind that is free from attachment. So that we can learn to be more peaceful people and people who just suffer less in general.

[00:10:10] So I think for any average person who doesn’t know much about Buddhism, they don’t necessarily have to take up the ordination path, like me, as a whole. But even just the basic principles of cultivating some virtue, right? Cultivating some sense of collectedness in daily life and trying to incorporate some concepts of wisdom in their life.

[00:10:36] This would already make them more peaceful and more contented in their daily lives. That’s really to me why most people should consider taking up the Noble Eightfold Path.

[00:10:52] I think I’m feeling a mixture of emotions. So I mentioned earlier, I feel a sense of relief that I finally managed to take the next step in this path beyond what I’ve been doing for the past six years in Singapore. At the same time, I am actually feeling a bit nervous wearing these robes because one way that you can call the yellow robe of a monk is that it is the banner of the Arahant.

[00:11:22] The meaning of Arahant is a person who has overcome all of his defilements. That being the case, as for me, I’m not a person who has overcome all of my defilements. I feel like I have this sense of imposter syndrome. I think that’s something I might need to overcome in my own practice as well, to try and cultivate those values within myself. Because, right now I might look like a monk on the outside, but the whole idea during my time here is really to bring the monk within and to cultivate the values that monks should try and uphold, namely the Noble Eightfold Path that we’ve mentioned.

[00:12:09] I did mention that previously I was at Wat Pah Nanachat. After that, I went back to Singapore and that question opened up again of “If I would take up this path for a second time, where would I go?” Obviously Nanachat would have been the obvious choice in a way because I was already there. But at the same time, in the six years since, every Friday evening, I’ve been joining the Zoom sessions that Luang Por Anan has kindly hosted for the global community along the way.

[00:12:44] I really felt to be part of this family of Wat Marp Jan and because it’s still part of the Luang Pu Chah tradition. I didn’t see that it was deviating in any way. In fact, I felt it was quite compatible in a sense that I gained some preliminary training at Wat Pah Nanachat. And then here I am at Wat Marp Jan under Luang Por Anan, who I have come to develop a lot of faith in.

[00:13:10] I do see that he’s a very accomplished practitioner and I do hope to become a bit more like him in every way. So definitely I want to be as close as I can to Luang Por Anan. Therefore I chose Wat Marp Jan.

[00:13:32] Before I learned about Buddhism, I led quite the normal life. I was just going through school. I was in university. I would never have imagined being… taking up this path of ordination. I was very much looking forward to going out in the work life and I wanted to, you know, contribute to society in a working way.

[00:13:57] I had a friend who actually told me, “I don’t want to work. I just want to have my financial freedom and not work. And just have my own free time.”

[00:14:05] And I was wondering, “oh, why? But when you work, you get to contribute to society.”

[00:14:10] And so, truth be told, here I am. As a monk, I don’t necessarily work in the conventional sense in that I am contributing economically. However, I hope to contribute to society in a more spiritual way. In a way that I feel would eventually bring people more peace. So what I would actually say then to when I was still in school at the time to me is that,

[00:14:38] “Well, now that you’ve taken up this path, you’ve given up most of everything else you’ve tried to pursue in life. So I wish you the best and I hope that you find what you’re looking for.”

[00:14:55] Yeah, that past me wouldn’t have understood what I’m doing right now, probably.


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Editors and Transcribers of this episode:

Eng Yean Khai, Tan Si Jing, Bernice Bay, Cheryl Cheah


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When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön: A Personal Reflection

When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön: A Personal Reflection

Getting to Know Pema

Pema Chödrön’s story resonated with me right away. She wasn’t born into a monastery-she was a regular person, living a regular life, until everything fell apart for her too. Her marriage ended, her world was upended, and she found herself seeking deeper meaning. Eventually, she became a Buddhist nun and teacher, but she never lost her down-to-earth, relatable way of speaking. Reading her words felt like talking to a wise friend who had been through it all and come out the other side with a gentle smile.

Life Lessons That Landed Deeply

What struck me most about When Things Fall Apart was how Pema didn’t sugarcoat suffering. She doesn’t offer quick fixes or spiritual bypasses. Instead, she invites us to lean into our pain, to get curious about our discomfort, and to stop running away from what hurts.

Embracing Groundlessness

When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön: A Personal Reflection

One of the most powerful lessons for me was her teaching on “groundlessness.” Pema writes about how we’re always looking for something solid to hold onto, but life just doesn’t work that way. Everything is always changing. At first, this was terrifying for me to accept. But as I read her words, I realized there’s a strange freedom in letting go of the need for certainty. When I stopped fighting reality, I found a little more peace.

Staying With Discomfort

When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön: A Personal Reflection

Pema encourages us to “lean into the sharp points” of our experience. I remember a night when anxiety kept me awake, and instead of distracting myself, I tried her advice. I just sat with the feeling, noticing how it moved through my body. It wasn’t easy, but it was real, and for the first time, I felt like I was making friends with my own mind.

Making Room for All Emotions

When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön: A Personal Reflection

I’ve always been someone who tries to “fix” bad feelings, but Pema’s words nudged me to try something different: just letting my emotions be. She says, “The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen.” I started to notice that when I stopped judging myself for feeling sad or scared, those emotions became less overwhelming.

Compassion and Courage

What I love most about Pema is her emphasis on compassion-especially self-compassion. She reminds us that we don’t have to be perfect to be worthy of love, and that being gentle with ourselves in hard times is an act of bravery. This was a game-changer for me.

Moments That Stuck With Me

  • Staying with Uncertainty: Pema shares stories of her own life falling apart-marriage ending, health issues, losing teachers. She doesn’t pretend it was easy. Instead, she describes how she learned to stay present with her pain, and how that presence transformed her suffering into wisdom. I found comfort in knowing that even a Buddhist nun struggles sometimes.
  • Letting Go of Control: I laughed and nodded when Pema wrote about wanting life to be a neat, tidy puzzle. I’ve spent so much energy trying to control everything. Her advice to let go and accept the messiness of life was both humbling and liberating.
  • Facing Difficult Emotions: Her practice of getting “up close” with our feelings-without trying to change them-felt radical to me. It’s still something I’m learning, but it’s made a real difference in how I relate to myself.

What I Took Away:

Final Thoughts

When Things Fall Apart didn’t solve all my problems, but it changed the way I face them. Pema Chödrön’s gentle wisdom helped me see that I don’t need to have it all together to find peace. I just need to show up, stay present, and be kind to myself-especially when things are falling apart. If you’re going through a tough time, or just want to live with a little more courage and compassion, I can’t recommend this book enough. It’s been a true friend to me, and I hope it will be for you too.

Ep 62: A Narrow Heart Is a Fragile Heart  ft. Lopen Ani Pema Deki (Ven Emma Slade)

Ep 62: A Narrow Heart Is a Fragile Heart ft. Lopen Ani Pema Deki (Ven Emma Slade)


Summary

In this episode of the Handful of Leaves Podcast, Cheryl speaks with Emma Slade (Ani Pema Deki), a former London investment banker who became a Buddhist nun after a life-changing experience. Together, they explore the tension between modern busyness and spiritual practice, unpacking what happiness, bliss, and resilience truly mean. Emma reflects on Bhutanese attitudes toward life, the challenges lay practitioners face, and the importance of widening our hearts beyond self-interest. She also shares her personal story of faith, karma, and the powerful connection to her teacher that solidified her decision to ordain.

This conversation challenges common assumptions about happiness and invites listeners to reconsider how faith, kindness, and perspective can transform life into a path of genuine freedom.


About the Speaker

👤 Lopen Ani Pema Deki (Emma Slade) was born in Kent, and was educated at Cambridge University and the University of London where she gained a First Class degree.  She is a qualified Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) and worked in Fund Management in London, New York, and Hong Kong. 

A deep seated desire to enquire into the deeper aspects of humanity arise following a life- changing business trip to Jakarta, where she was held hostage at gunpoint. She resigned from her financial career and began exploring yoga and meditation and methods of wellbeing with the ultimate aim of turning a traumatic episode into wisdom and conditions for thriving. 

She qualified as a British Wheel of Yoga teacher in 2003 and, over the last 19 years, has run numerous yoga workshops and retreats. Her interest in Buddhism as a science of the mind strengthened after meeting a Buddhist Lama (teacher) on her first visit to Bhutan in 2011. This crucial chance meeting led to her studying Buddhism with this Lama and, eventually, led to her becoming the first and only Western woman to be ordained in the Himalayan Kingdom of Bhutan as a Buddhist nun.


Key Takeaways

True Happiness vs. Samsaric Comfort

Emma Slade emphasizes that happiness rooted in worldly comfort is fragile, while liberation from suffering is the only path to lasting peace.

Small Acts, Big Shifts

Even in a busy modern life, small gestures of kindness and widening one’s perspective can cultivate resilience, compassion, and deeper joy.

The Role of Faith and Karma

Emma’s journey from investment banker to Buddhist nun shows how powerful moments of faith and the unfolding of karma can radically redirect one’s life path.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Emma Slade: Are we seeking to be comfortable in samsara? Are we seeking to get comfortable with the reality of suffering? Or are we seeking to liberate from it?

[00:00:13] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves Podcast. My name is Cheryl, and today I’m joined by Emma Slade, also known as  Ani Pema Deki. She once walked the high stakes world of investment banking in London until a near death experience, when she was held at gunpoint in Jakarta. She decided to leave for the mountains in Bhutan to ordain as a nun.

[00:00:35] Cheryl: she will reveal how opening and widening our heart makes us unbreakable. Let’s begin.

[00:00:43] Emma Slade: 50 years ago, there was just a cup of coffee, right? Now there’s a semi skim latte, hazelnut, vegan, free hazelnut coffee or whatever. It’s really quite an undertaking when worldly life, every day it just gets more fascinating. Anybody who’s sincerely wishing to do some practice while still living a worldly life, while I really admire it.

[00:01:05] Emma Slade: Very sincere Buddhist practitioners or spiritual people, even though they have this incredibly busy worldy life, they still feel pulled to do some spiritual development, but it’s so hard for them to find the balance.

[00:01:19] Emma Slade: Practices, prayers, rituals, whatever they are, they take time. That I think is increasingly, that’s the commodity that nobody has. There’s a bit of a conflict there, how do you really train, become aware of your habits and change them without giving the time to it?

[00:01:37] Emma Slade: We look at the great masters, you look at Milarepa, look at Gampopa, if you read their stories, none of them, none of them it was like this, right?

[00:01:46] Emma Slade: We have to be realistic in terms of it’s likely that what you put in is what you get out in most forms of life.

[00:01:53] Cheryl: But then there’s this big conundrum of lay people wanting to have more happiness in their life, but not having enough time to put in the causes for it. Does that mean that lay people they only have to accept that they would be stuck in suffering?

[00:02:14] Emma Slade: It’s a complicated thing. There’s a lot of conditions that need to come together, right? Not only for lay people, for monastic people too. When we look at the texts, there’s a lot of texts which will say, you can do three hours of prayers, but if in that time you were distracted for two and a half hours, then so there’s also the question of intention.

[00:02:33] Emma Slade: We have to look at our motivation because are we seeking to be comfortable in samsara? Are we seeking to be to get comfortable with the reality of suffering? Or are we seeking to liberate from it? When we use the word happiness, usually people are wanting worldly happiness. Usually they’re looking for some way to make their existence un-painful, and comfortable And that’s not what the Buddha taught really because he said that liberation from suffering is the way to permanent unchanging happiness. And the idea that somehow you can be happy in samsara when it’s unreliable and it’s the truth of suffering. So I think when it comes to this word happiness, we kind of have to look at it quite carefully actually.

[00:03:21] Cheryl: Actually, it’s very interesting that you brought that up because when I was looking through your website, I also noticed that your Buddhist name, Ani Pema Deki, it means blissful lotus.

[00:03:33] Emma Slade: That’s right. Trying for that. These names, they’re always aspirational. So we have to bear that in mind.

[00:03:39] Cheryl: What’s your take on the word “bliss” at this point? And what is one common misunderstanding that society in general have about this word about “bliss” and “happiness”?

[00:03:50] Emma Slade: Oh gosh, that’s a big question. Yeah. So in Vajrayana practice you’ll see the word “joy” and different levels of joy being spoken about. And you will see the word “bliss” and you’ll often see bliss and emptiness that arising together.

[00:04:11] Emma Slade: And now these are mental states naturally arising from the results of Dharma practice. And they’re usually spoken about as the results of increasing experience and increasing realisation, and they are not manufactured.

[00:04:28] Emma Slade: They are seen as something which when the clouds of confusion are removed, then these states will kind of naturally show themselves. There’s something which is not that effortful about them.

[00:04:42] Emma Slade: For experience of joy or bliss to arise, my understanding is that you can’t kind of make that happen. It’s more like when it’s effortless that those feelings arise.

[00:04:54] Emma Slade: When I think back on my life before I was a nun, you have good things happen. But from my small experience, I can’t really equate any kind of experience of joy or bliss from dedicated Dharma practice to those experiences, they seem quite different to me.

[00:05:10] Emma Slade: Because the worldly joy or bliss, just from my perspective now, it looks very manufactured and very temporary because it doesn’t protect you from feeling bad two days later. It changes. It disperses. It’s not very stable.

[00:05:27] Cheryl: Bhutan is known for being the happiest country in the world. What is the difference you notice in people living there and people living in, maybe UK or Hong Kong where you were living at before becoming a nun?

[00:05:41] Emma Slade: Firstly, now that many areas and countries and institutions have been trying to quantify happiness, in some of those studies, Bhutan doesn’t do frighteningly well. The Scandinavian countries appear to be at the top of the list there. You probably know from your life if you think maybe if I asked you on Sunday how happy you were and then I asked you on Thursday how happy you are.

[00:06:06] Emma Slade: You may not have the same number. So I think that there’s lots of questions about how we really quantify this and many of my experiences in Bhutan, I think in some ways they’re not actually captured in the indices. So, for example, in Bhutan, often people are incredibly accepting of challenges and obstacles. They’re very mentally resilient to them, I feel some of those qualities and attitudes that I’ve seen protect people from clinging to difficulty, ruminating on it, continuing to suffer because of it. So I feel like officially Bhutan, is not at the top of the pile of happy countries. But the attitudes that I’ve encountered, the way people support each other, they stick together in times of difficulty.

[00:06:53] Emma Slade: Quite amazing. And of course they have the bedrock of Dhamma, the bedrock of great faith and belief in many lifetimes in rebirth. They don’t have that clinging to this one life, which I think again, is this very helpful attitude for ensuring that we’re less vulnerable to the ups and downs of a worldly life.

[00:07:16] Cheryl: What are one or two things that we could learn that we could apply to become more content, more resilient in our busy lives?

[00:07:25] Emma Slade: Even in a busy life, sometimes it’s only gonna take two minutes to help somebody with their bag, give somebody a smile on the tube. Send a message to somebody is dealing with something difficult. Even in a busy life, you can just stretch a little to be a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more kind.

[00:07:45] Emma Slade: Try to make your contribution to the world more than just your own existence, right? Even in a busy life. If you have a bit more time, you could do some reflection on what is your motivation. Is your motivation always for yourself? Is it for yourself and a few people? Is it for yourself at a wider circle of people? How narrow is your view of things? Who are you really dedicating your time and your intelligence and your efforts to?

[00:08:14] Emma Slade: And vast happiness will come from connecting to a vast number of beings, whether with your mind or with your activity. So you may be somebody who’s very busy, but you may curiously be in a position where you could help a lot of beings without too much effort because you may be very good in computers or with a network. I think it’s also worth checking how your view of yourself is, and don’t spend too much time ruminating on negative ideas about yourself or others. It’s just a waste of time. It’s a waste of energy.

[00:08:50] Cheryl: I was having a very interesting conversation with a friend and I was sharing that the way to have a meaningful life is to be of benefit to oneself and of benefit to others. Mm-hmm. And she shared with me: “Why bother about anyone outside of your family and loved ones?” And I thought that was a very interesting perspective that many modern people hold. Like, why bother? Why care? Why should we not be selfish?

[00:09:20] Emma Slade: So when you say that, I just imagine a heart that’s very like this, right? And it says, okay, these are the people I’m gonna think about and care about.

[00:09:27] Emma Slade: And all of these ones I’m not gonna bother with. How does that sound as a recipe for living your life?

[00:09:32] Cheryl: Restricted. Even as you’re saying, I’m feeling all the tension.

[00:09:35] Emma Slade: Yeah. And to be honest, in this little thing that we’ve created here where there’s us and maybe five other people, right? What do we know when we look at human existence in the course of a human life? Is it usually the people that are closest to you, the ones you have the biggest arguments with?

[00:09:51] Cheryl and Emma: Yes.

[00:09:52] Emma Slade: Think of the number of people that get divorced. Think a number of people that fall out with their parents or their siblings right? So then what happens? No breadth of connection, which will also support you if this area becomes tricky.

[00:10:04] Emma Slade: So, just in a kind of selfish way, you are hedging your bets a bit more carefully if you it’s like an investment, you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. It’s easy to stay in your comfort zone, very easy. But from a Buddhist point of view, that’s not the way to enlightenment.

[00:10:23] Emma Slade: Being something like a Bodhisattva, working for the benefit of others is about deliberately beginning to stretch your comfort zone. So your heart and your mind become wider and wider until they have the limitless qualities of love and compassion, etc. That’s what Buddhism offers. To me that’s much more appealing than this, this idea.

[00:10:47] Emma Slade: As humans, we have this incredible mental faculty to make decisions about how we want to live, who we want to help, how we want to contribute or not.

[00:10:57] Emma Slade: These are decisions that worms in the ground and birds in the air don’t really have the choice to make. I mean, that’s the amazing thing about having the opportunity to have a human life, isn’t it?

[00:11:07] Cheryl: And I guess speaking of jolting experiences, I would love to hear from you firsthand, how you became a Buddhist, and I think one word that really caught my attention is the idea of faith, from becoming a Buddhist, to becoming a nun. How did that journey happen?

[00:11:26] Emma Slade: I really wanted to be interested in Buddhism from a very young age, and particularly meditation. I just thought, what is that? That looks intriguing. And so I became a Buddhist.

[00:11:39] Emma Slade: And then obviously when I went to Bhutan for the first time in 2011 and I met the person who was to be my teacher for those first few years.

[00:11:47] Emma Slade: And it was him who suggested or told me to become a monastic. It definitely felt more like an order. And I’ve been a nun now for 13 years, which I can’t quite believe because it sounds like a long, long time actually.

[00:12:03] Emma Slade: Not everyone will be a monastic, and I always feel whenever I’m eating some food or reading a book, thank goodness not everybody’s a monastic, or I would be starving to death with nothing to eat and nothing to read. But I think for me it’s definitely the right path.

[00:12:19] Cheryl: Tell me more, because it sounds like there’s a lot of faith that you had in your teacher as well.

[00:12:24] Emma Slade: We have these moments in your life where everything is just so clear and obvious, like there’s not any other option.

[00:12:30] Emma Slade: Most of the time we’re like, “Do I want to eat spaghetti or eat potatoes?” Or whatever. We’re constantly in this confused state of, “do I want it, do I not want it?” That’s the nature of samsara. And you have these very powerful moments of faith where all of that confusion drops away and it’s just so clear what to do. And I think I had a couple of moments like that in my journey in Bhutan.

[00:12:53] Emma Slade: When I first met my teacher in Bhutan, when I heard his voice for the first time, it’s just like a thunderbolt. It’s just a very powerful experience. And you don’t kind of think, “why is that interesting? Why is it because it’s got such a low tone or whatever?”

[00:13:08] Emma Slade: It’s just, “wow, there’s some connection here that’s very powerful, very obvious.”

[00:13:17] Emma Slade: And with that degree of connectedness, it gives you a strength to want to practice and study and return to them and gain their help and continue. So faith supports you in your wish to make progress. It stops you giving up. It is this connectedness, you don’t feel as if you’re just kind of on your own, somehow it helps to make the whole landscape so much bigger than just you. And I think that’s extremely helpful for practice.

[00:13:49] Emma Slade: In text they often say to examine a teacher before becoming their student. But it’s also possible to have these very powerful momentary experiences, because you can’t just order one on Amazon. If you have a teacher you profoundly connect with, you really are inspired to study and practice, how lucky to have that.

[00:14:09] Cheryl: But it’s so interesting that your affinity with Tibetan Buddhism I, I didn’t read about your childhood but I assumed you grew up in UK?

[00:14:21] Emma Slade: Yes, that’s right.

[00:14:22] Cheryl: Oh, so like, different countries.

[00:14:24] Emma Slade: Yes, I know. I think that when I’m in the mountains of Bhutan, I’m at like 3000 meters. And then I was born at sea level. My Lama just said it’s just kamma. You just have very, very strong kamma. All the texts say only the Buddha can really understand the full workings of karma, so I’m not gonna attempt to take a stab at it. But for some reason, everything for me seems to ripen in Bhutan. Kamma is a very difficult thing to fully understand, but I think when you begin to see it working in your life, then you’re gonna like, well, I don’t really get how this works, but I am not gonna doubt it.

[00:15:03] Emma Slade: Who thought that, a girl born in Whitstable in England would end up spending half a time in Bhutan and then fully ordained there. It’s kind of crazy. I feel like my whole life has a testament to the power of kamma.

[00:15:18] Emma Slade: (stay tuned for part 2?) Not finding what we desire is suffering, and that’s such an important suffering.

[00:15:25] Emma Slade: They don’t have the job they like, they don’t have the partner that makes them, I don’t know what, they don’t like their boss, right? These are all mental states that arise from being in difficult circumstances, it leads us to be in a state of suffering based on aversion.


Resources:

Lopen Ani Pema Deki (Emma Slade)’s website – https://www.emmaslade.com/

Lopen Ani Pema Deki (Emma Slade)’s charity fundraiser – https://www.openingyourhearttobhutan.com/


Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen, Nai Kai Lee, Amelia Toh, Hannah Law, Shin Hui Chong, Dennis Lee

🙏 Sponsor us: https://handfulofleaves.life/support/


Editors and Transcribers of this episode:

Hong Jiayi, Tan Si Jing, Bernice Bay, Cheryl Cheah


Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan


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From Swiping to Self-Knowing: My Dhamma Online Dating Diary

From Swiping to Self-Knowing: My Dhamma Online Dating Diary

TLDR: How to navigate the uncertainties of online dating? Learning to want less, expect less and identify what is within and outside of our control can help us know ourselves better.

As a young (<30-year-old) man interested in women, I spent the last four years actively swiping on various dating apps looking for a partner for a long-term relationship. The search has not resulted in a lasting relationship, and I am still single, but all is not lost: reflecting on the process has produced some thoughts that could make dating less painful, which I hope to be able to share.

What the Buddha Said about Attraction

In the very first sutta of the Numbered Discourses (Aṅguttaranikāya), AN 1.1 Cittapariyādānavagga “The Chapter on What Occupies the Mind“, the Buddha was recorded as having said:

“Mendicants, I do not see a single sight that occupies a man’s (woman’s) mind like the sight of a woman. The sight of a woman occupies a man’s mind.”

Of course, the Buddha also said:

“Mendicants, I do not see a single sight that occupies a woman’s mind like the sight of a man. The sight of a man occupies a woman’s mind.”

I think this sutta does describe the underlying drive behind dating. We allow the many facets of others to occupy our minds and thoughts, making them our singular focus—and create for ourselves a world of distinctions, complexities and possibilities (& unhappiness!)

Online Dating: More Than Just Swiping 

Online dating is a process that involves the creation of profiles by interested people—you curate photographs, videos and short descriptions and traits about yourself, list out your preferences in a partner (gender, age, relationship type, etc. ), and the dating app platform searches for suitable people meeting those preferences and presents them to you. Next, you decide if you’d like to connect with them, and if they feel similarly about connecting with you, they accept, and it’s a match! The talking part commences, and possibly an in-person meetup in the future should both parties agree.

The Three Kinds of Uncertainty in Online Dating

From Swiping to Self-Knowing: My Dhamma Online Dating Diary

As simple as the process sounds, looking back, I’d say that my experience of online dating is one that can be characterised by three kinds of uncertainty:

First, the uncertainty in whether I’d meet someone; long stretches of not matching with anyone, wondering if there was something lacking in myself that made me unworthy to be considered, and the additional loneliness I felt through this process of waiting.

Second, the uncertainty in whether I’d get along with the people you meet; people came in with their own expectations, ideas and thoughts about the dating process. Many were just bored, and wanted to see what it was like, without any real interest or investment in the process. Some appeared to be dating according to a checklist, keen to find any point of incompatibility. Others were disinterested, and spoke nothing much. Many matched and neither spoke nor responded to a “hello”, and unmatched soon after. 

Ghosting happened often, expectedly (and also most unexpectedly), and people regularly dropped out of connections that they had no interest in continuing—without even a “this isn’t what I’m looking for, goodbye”. 

(Let me note that: people should not have any obligations to continue conversations that they don’t feel comfortable or safe engaging in. Ghosting can be the best way to end an interaction, especially if further explanation or reason only serves to magnify the discomfort or danger.)

Being ghosted created more self-doubt: was it the quality of my end of the conversation? Was I too serious? Not fun enough? Not interesting enough? Too desperate? Too insecure? Was I not a good person? Was I not good enough? Was it something about me that I could fix? Skill issue? Frustration and unhappiness also arose from being  “unceremoniously” disconnected.

Thirdly, the uncertainty in building a lasting connection. For the few matches for which conversations were responsive and interesting, that I felt increasingly invested in, there was the uncertainty and anxiety in being able to hold on and build something out of the connection. 

Upon reflection, I guess I did also turn people away for being too intensely invested in the process. This came with feelings that it was my flaws that sabotaged it, and wondering if I’d ever meet someone as unique, great and good as them ever again.

Eventually, it also dawned upon me that I had no real sense of what was going on.  I just had an “idea” that I had a stake or an investment in a relationship — I too had no clue what I was going to do with a relationship beyond the first few dates.

Reflecting on my experiences (with the help of the Dhamma) has made them less painful, and I’d like to share some thoughts that’ve comforted me, and helped me to look at the dating process differently.

Wanting Less, Hurting Less

Wanting brings a sort of dissatisfactionso want less: At the root of it, the preoccupation with dating & finding someone is itself a source of suffering. The Buddha taught that the: 

union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering”  

SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattanasutta

When we find ourselves in relationships that are unfulfilling and unbeneficial, there is unhappiness. Losing, changing, or ending a promising connection that we greatly enjoyed is also a form of unhappiness, and when we seek but do not find someone suitable for us, that is yet another sort of unhappiness.

My takeaway: To moderate my wants & expectations regarding relationships. Although the inevitability of (some degree of) suffering attached to the pursuit of romance and love persists, by letting go of unrealistic or unnecessary expectations about relationships, I subject myself to fewer avenues of suffering. To me, this is a call for simplicity and moderation in my expectations about relationships—to focus on the few and vital aspects that are the most important to me.

Focus on What You Can Actually Control

From Swiping to Self-Knowing: My Dhamma Online Dating Diary

What is within & what is beyond our control: I think we spend too much time and effort on what is outside our control, and too little on what is within our control.

What is outside of our control? Meeting the right person. What is within our control? Our happiness and fulfilment.

My takeaway: We may think that the process of encountering people is entirely within our control, but that isn’t necessarily true. We can do a great deal in setting ourselves up for success—by the ample possession of good morals, qualities, traits, behaviours and habits, by looking for people in the right places (not on online dating platforms perhaps 😜), by ensuring that we are in the right mindset and frame of mind to date. However, we are ultimately dependent on there being a suitable counterpart out there—someone at the right place, right time, who shares a compatible outlook on life. 

The online dating scene is noisy and full of distractions—people are in it for a variety of reasons and try as much as we do to filter incompatible people out, chance and uncertainty features strongly in this process. Just as we don’t expect to be the lucky draw winner for every contest we enter, and aren’t overly disheartened by this outcome, we should practice a sort of patient forbearance” (khanti) in this process, and focus on ensuring that we have done what we can to set ourselves up for success.

My takeaway: We may think that happiness, fulfilment and completeness come from finding the ideal partner, but that isn’t necessarily true.

There are some joys that arise from being partnered, such as the experience and ability to care for and be cared for in romantic relationships, having someone to share and experience life with; but our happiness and fulfilment is largely our own affair.

Even if a partner presented to us all that we need to be happy and fulfilled—whether materially, emotionally, romantically or otherwise—blinded as we are by our expectations and wanting, we would not be able to recognise and appreciate it. The solution to this lies within ourselves.

When we work on ourselves, the most natural and immediate beneficiary is not our (prospective) partner, but ourselves. The cultivation of skilful, beneficial and wholesome qualities brings immediate and long-term improvements to our lives. These traits would also attract like-minded people who appreciate them—an additional plus point. Similarly, the letting go of unskilful, unbeneficial and unwholesome qualities makes us easier to live and interact with, benefiting both ourselves and those around us. When we are easy to get along with, people find our presence enjoyable and less stressful, which is an added bonus.

Know Thyself: The Hardest Swipe

Know Thyself: If I were to condense all of my thoughts about dating learnt over the past four years into a single phrase—it would be “know thyself”. 

My takeaway: We are best placed to truly understand ourselves and what we are looking for in relationships; to know what it is that we actually want and whether it is helpful to us. 

Our continued fixation on idealised images and aspirations about dating brings us a great deal of unhappiness when they go unmet, or when reality is dull compared to our expectations.

Self-knowledge brings perspective on the relative importance of relationships compared to the other things in life: our family, friends, work, spiritual practice, health,  and other life goals.

Could we also find a great deal of contentment, fulfilment and freedom in our current singlehood? If yes, by sowing good causes and conditions, we can patiently wait for the opportunity to meet someone aligned with our approach to life—and discern when a person isn’t suitable for us, and vice-versa .

Ultimately, respect, and concern for the welfare—physical, emotional, mental and sexual—of others underlies the whole process; after all, it is meant to be a joyful and enriching process for both parties after all.

Finding Peace, Not Just a Partner

In the spirit of the ‘Serenity Prayer’ by Reinhold Niebulr: 

“… give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what can not be helped, and insight to know the one from the other.”

May we aspire and work towards healthier and sustainable tendencies in dating!


  1. Be clear about what I want from relationships – moderate my wants and expectations
  2. To understand what is beyond my control and what is within my control
  3. To know myself – have clarity on what I am looking for in relationships
What a Pooping Stranger Taught Me About Mindfulness & Impermanence

What a Pooping Stranger Taught Me About Mindfulness & Impermanence

On a sunny afternoon, as I was walking towards my local supermarket to stock up on groceries for the week, I noticed a sudden, strong, smelly odor as I was going down the escalator.

This was not usual.

I didn’t know where it came from. As soon as I reached the bottom of the escalator, I saw a fresh, huge “gold” at the end of the escalator, coming from an old man standing in front of me! 

I didn’t over-react like I normally do. Instead, I maintained my awareness and carefully walked past the mess and the stains left by his footprints on my way to the supermarket.

I heaved a sigh of relief and continued with my grocery shopping.

The day just gets ‘worse’

After buying what I needed, I went back to the dormitory. Upon arrival, I realised that my card to enter the dormitory wasn’t on me!

Usually, in similar circumstances, I would start to panic. Various negative scenarios would begin to play out in my mind. But it was different this time.

I directed my mind to think of solutions to get my card back. I recollected the places I had walked past and the actions I had taken while returning to the dormitory from the supermarket. I remembered that I had taken my phone out while buying chicken at the deli and that was probably when the card had accidentally fallen out of my pocket.

I quickly walked back to the supermarket, scanning the floor for my card as I went. Thank goodness when I arrived at the deli, my card was still untouched on the floor. I picked it up and joyfully walked back to the dormitory.

A tale of two mindsets

What a Pooping Stranger Taught Me About Mindfulness & Impermanence

When I got back, I compared the difference in my mental state and behaviour in this situation to my usual conduct. The following is a summary of the comparison:

UsualThis time
Would daydream while walkingWalked with mindfulness 
Living in my own world, unaware of what’s happening around meBeing aware of my surroundings

The experience was abnormal. I had been practising mindfulness meditation for months, but I never expected to witness the fruition of my efforts in such a profound and unexpected moment.

I saw that having added a little bit more mindfulness made my ability to handle incidents with more peace of mind. I was not adding value judgments to situations but rather seeing things with a more balanced approach.

This prevented ‘unfortunate’ moments from becoming ‘unfortunate’ hours, days, months or even years!

Reflecting on the day

As I reflected on the incident that happened that day, I realised that with sati (mindfulness), sampajañña (awareness), and some saddhā (faith) in myself, I can achieve my desired results without any stress—or at least maintain a positive relationship with it.

Recently, I took a short course at my university regarding effective methods and tips for preparing for exams. One of the topics was about dealing with stress. A TED video on stress was shared. 

From the video, I learnt that simply believing that stress is not harmful can reduce the risk of dying, as stress actually helps the body prepare for more challenging tasks. For more information about dealing with stress, you may watch Kelly McGonigal’s TED talk: How to make stress your friend.

So, I can use sampajañña to recognise when I am stressed and notice the negative thoughts associated with it. Then, I can apply sati and a positive perception of stress to change my relationship with it and stop the negative proliferation of thoughts, helping me overcome difficulties without feeling like I’m “dying.” The best of both worlds!

Here is a good guided meditation that you might find helpful for practising sati and sampajañña: Guided Mindfulness Meditation with Ajahn Kalyano

Lessons on impermanence

What a Pooping Stranger Taught Me About Mindfulness & Impermanence

The incident with the old man pooping uncontrollably in public also made me reflect on the nature of impermanence. I may be young now, but one day, I too will be like the old man. Unable to control my bowels or my body. 

This reminded me of King Koravya, a king during the Buddha’s time, who quizzed Buddha’s disciple, Rattapala, on why he was ordained when young. The famous dialogue showed that even the rich and powerful aren’t spared from ageing.

“And what do you think, great king: Are you even now as strong in arm and strong in thigh, as fit, and as seasoned in warfare?”

“Not at all, Master Ratthapala. I’m now a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life, 80 years old. Sometimes, thinking, ‘I will place my foot here,’ I place it somewhere else.”

“It was in reference to this, great king, that the Blessed One who knows and sees, worthy and rightly self-awakened, said: ‘The world is swept away. It does not endure.’ Having known and seen and heard this, I went forth from the home life into homelessness.”

Impermanence in student life

I recently felt the impact of impermanence in my own life. 

During the semester, I was planning my to-do lists with my roommate so that we wouldn’t get bored during the winter break. Just as I was fantasising about our good times after the final exams, one day, he suddenly told me that he had decided to go back to Vietnam during the break. He couldn’t handle the gloomy days of winter anymore.

In my mind, I had expected that we would do meaningful things together. However, plans do not always keep up with changes. Some things are beyond our control.

A good learning experience on impermanence. The learning experience doesn’t always have to involve death—it can also be about the little things in our daily lives.


Wise Steps:

  • Try to maintain mindfulness and awareness in daily life.
  • Recognise your negative thoughts and learn how to develop a positive relationship with them through mindfulness.
  • Use the thought of impermanence as a trigger to practise awareness and mindfulness in daily life.