dhamma Archives - Handful of Leaves

Being Gay, I Was Taught I’d Go to Hell. Then I Found the Buddha’s True Words.

by Thomas Zachary Lee | Jun 27, 2025 | LGBT, Read, Relationships | 0 comments

TLDR: This article explores the struggle of growing up gay in a conservative society and the conflicting messages from different Buddhist traditions. It highlights the Buddha’s early teachings, which focus not on sexual orientation but on living ethically, with compassion and non-harming.

Growing Up Gay in a Conservative Society

At fourteen, I noticed something different about myself—something society deemed abnormal. I found myself attracted to the same sex. I attended an all-boys’ school where masculinity and heterosexual norms were paramount. Anything even remotely feminine was ridiculed, and being called “gay” meant mockery and marginalisation.

I began my long performance: a straight boy in disguise. It was the only way I felt safe.

There was no one I could trust. Friends, classmates, even my own parents—none offered support. I still remember the sting of hearing my parents comment on the news of a gay DJ who had murdered his ex-boyfriend. “See, gay people are crazy,” they said. “That’s why they end up like this.” Their words pierced deeper than they knew and I was scared of being found out.

With nowhere to turn, I sought solace in religion, hoping for compassion and understanding. Yet even there, I faced rejection. In major faith traditions, homosexuality is often condemned. In certain sects of Traditional Chinese Buddhism, being gay is seen as morally deviant, a karmic transgression.

Renowned masters like Venerable Hsuan Hua had openly declared that homosexuality “plants the seeds that lead to rebirth in the lower realms.” In one of his teachings, he said:

大家要知道，同性戀是違背天地之理，忤逆人倫之惡行。在他們後面都由妖魔鬼怪所慫恿、煽風點火，叫人直奔地獄門。(Everyone must understand that homosexuality goes against the natural order of heaven and earth and is a vile act that defies human ethics. Behind them are demons and evil spirits inciting and fanning the flames, leading people straight to the gates of hell.)

Those words haunted me. (I thankfully found closure on his comments which I will cover at the end of the article).

I bore a heavy burden of guilt and self-doubt, questioning my worth, my sanity, and my right to exist. For years, I silently wrestled with feeling unworthy in the eyes of society and religion. How could I reconcile my faith with who I was? How could I accept myself when everything around me screamed that I was broken?

This is not just my story. It is the story of many others who suffer quietly in the shadows—longing for acceptance, for love, for peace.

Encountering Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda

Perhaps this is exactly what the Buddhist concept of causes and conditions (因缘) is all about. One day, while in search of a Dharma-based perspective on sexual identity—still unconvinced by Venerable Hsuan Hua’s interpretation—I came across the writings of Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda an esteemed Theravāda Buddhist scholar-monk widely revered in Malaysia and Singapore.

His article, titled “A Buddhist View of Homosexuality”, immediately caught my attention. I felt drawn to its perspective, hoping to find a voice of clarity and compassion. One bold line stood out to me:

“There is nothing intrinsically wrong with sex. What is wrong is attachment and slavery to it, on believing that indulgence in sex can bring ultimate happiness.”
— Ven. Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda (1919–2006)

Reading that, I was overwhelmed. Finally, an affirmation that my sexuality was not something inherently wrong or abnormal. Tears of relief and quiet joy welled up inside me.

Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda offered an insight that was refreshingly non-condemnatory. In essence, he explained that homosexuality—like heterosexuality—arises from ignorance, but it is not “sinful” in the Abrahamic religions’ sense. All forms of sexual desire, regardless of orientation, can increase lust, craving, and attachment to the body. Yet with wisdom, we gradually outgrow these attachments.

The goal of the spiritual path is not to single out or condemn homosexuality, but to transcend all forms of clinging, recognising that they all delay our liberation from Samsāra.

Initially comforting, this balanced and compassionate perspective soon gave way to confusion. I noticed stark divisions among contemporary Buddhist masters. Though some teachers of Traditional Chinese Buddhism take a critical stance on homosexuality, Buddhist scholar Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda emphasises inner transformation over external condemnation.

This left me with a burning question: How do we, as queer Buddhists, navigate such contradictory views within the same spiritual tradition?

Turning to The Historical Buddha

In the face of contradictions among contemporary Buddhist voices, what could be wiser than to return to the earliest sources—to take refuge in the Early Scriptures that contain the voice of the historical Buddha, Gautama, himself?

I embarked on a personal journey into the Early Suttas and Āgamas, with a focus on the Chinese Āgamas (《阿含經》), familiar to me through Chinese-language sources. My goal was to explore within the Chinese Buddhist tradition itself—not relying solely on later interpretive views but delving into the Buddhavacana, the words of the Buddha as preserved in scriptures Chinese Buddhists regard as authoritative.

I turned to the CBETA digital archive of the Taishō Tripiṭaka, accessing the Āgama texts to study what the Buddha had to say about topics like sexual misconduct. While there is a notable silence on LGBTQ-specific issues, what I discovered instead was wisdom and compassion from the Buddha who neither condemns nor excludes, but invites all beings onto the path. In Saṃyukta Āgama (SĀ) 1039¹:

行諸邪婬，若父母、兄弟、姊妹、夫主、親族，乃至授花鬘者，如是等護，以力強干，不離邪婬。[Engaging in sexual misconduct — if a woman is protected by her father, mother, brother, sister, husband, or relatives, or even one who has simply been offered a flower garland (signifying betrothal), and yet one forcibly violates her — this is not free from sexual misconduct.]

SImilarly, in Saṃyukta Āgama (SĀ) 1044²:

我既不喜人侵我妻。他亦不喜。我今云何侵人妻婦。是故受持不他婬戒。(Just as I would not be pleased if someone violated my wife, so too others would not be pleased. How then could I violate another man’s wife? Therefore, I uphold the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.)

Also, in Madhyama Āgama: The Upāsaka Sūtra (MA)³:

復次，舍梨子！白衣聖弟子離邪婬、斷邪婬，彼或有父所護，或母所護，或父母所護，或兄弟所護，或姊妹所護，或婦父母所護，或親親所護，或同姓所護，或為他婦女，有鞭罰恐怖，及有名雇債至華鬘親，不犯如是女。彼於邪淫淨除其心，白衣聖弟子善護行，此第三法。(Furthermore, Śāriputra, a noble white-clad [lay] disciple abstains from sexual misconduct, refrains from it. That means: he does not violate a woman who is protected by her father, or mother, or both parents; or protected by her brother or sister; or by her husband’s family; or by relatives; or of the same clan; or one who is married to another man; or who is subject to punishment, fear of punishment; or one who is in debt; or even one who is bounded by a garland as a sign of engagement or kinship. He does not violate such women. In this way, the noble white-clad [lay] disciple completely purifies his mind with regard to sexual misconduct, skillful in protecting his actions. This is the third practice.)

From various passages in the Āgamas above (the Chinese parallels of the Nikāyas in the Pāli Canon), it becomes evident that laypeople are advised to abstain from sexual relations with “unsuitable partners”—typically defined as underage girls, women who are betrothed or married, and those who have undertaken religious celibacy. This guidance is clear and grounded in harmlessness. It suggests that, in early Buddhism, sexual misconduct is not about sexual orientation, but rather concerns actions that would disrupt families, violate commitments, or cause harm.

Such an understanding aligns closely with the broader Buddhist ethical principle: that which causes suffering to oneself or others is considered unwholesome—or more precisely, unskillful (akauśalya). Viewed in this light, there is no strong doctrinal reason to assume that same-sex relationships, if consensual and non-harmful, should be treated any differently than heterosexual ones.

So, one must ask: why obsess over a layperson’s sexuality or sexual orientation at all? If the Buddha himself is silent on the matter, what does that say about contemporary attempts to moralize sexual orientation among lay followers?

Embracing Who You Are Now Without Harming Yourself Or Others

The early discourses of the historical Buddha make it abundantly clear: what truly matters is not one’s sexual orientation, but one’s commitment to the path.

Accept yourself as you are, now, in this lifetime, be it heterosexual or homosexual, and walk the path sincerely with diligence. The essence of the Buddha’s teaching is simple yet profound, as mentioned in the Ekottara Āgama (EA)⁴:

Commit no evil, do good abundantly, purify your mind — this is the teaching of all Buddhas.

The real obstacle is not who we love, but whether we are caught in craving (tṛ́ṣṇā) and clinging onto the delusion that sensual pleasures bring lasting happiness. Without dispassion and renunciation, whether gay or straight, we remain in saṃsāra.

We are all capable of walking the path to liberation—regardless of gender, sexuality, or background.

So why can’t a gay person be a good Buddhist? As long as one lives according to the principle of non-harming—causing no harm to oneself, to others, or to both through body, speech, and mind—then one is undeniably walking the noble path, the path that leads to happiness, peace, and ultimately, liberation. As the Buddha advised his son, Rāhula, in the Ambalaṭṭhikarāhulovāda Sutta (MN 61):

“Does this act with the body that I want to do lead to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both? Is it unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result?’ If, while reflecting in this way, you know: ‘This act with the body that I want to do leads to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both. It’s unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result.’
To the best of your ability, Rāhula, you should not do such a deed. But if, while reflecting in this way, you know: ‘This act with the body that I want to do doesn’t lead to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both. It’s skillful, with happiness as its outcome and result.’ Then, Rāhula, you should do such a deed.”

Sexual orientation does not determine one’s rebirth or afterlife destination, contrary to assertions made by figures such as Venerable Hsuan Hua. A close examination of the Buddha’s words as preserved in the Āgamas and Nikāyas reveals that it is unwholesome actions—committed through body, speech, or mind—that lead to unfortunate rebirths, such as in the hell realms, the animal realm, or the realm of hungry ghosts.

This is in the Apāyasaṁvattanika Sutta (AN 8.40), where the Buddha identifies eight unwholesome courses of action that lead to rebirth in the lower realms: (1) killing, (2) stealing, (3) sexual misconduct, (4) false speech, (5) divisive speech, (6) harsh speech, (7) idle chatter, and (8) the consumption of intoxicants. Notably, none of these factors pertains to sexual orientation.

In contrast to certain moral frameworks that associate non-heteronormative identities with spiritual downfall, early Buddhist ethics does not regard sexual orientation—whether heterosexual, homosexual, or otherwise—as inherently unwholesome.

What matters is the volitional quality (cetanā) and ethical nature of one’s actions. Thus, whether one identifies as gay, straight, bisexual, or otherwise, it is not one’s orientation that leads to rebirth in heaven or hell, but one’s intentional conduct and adherence to ethical principles. This reflects the emphasis on personal responsibility, ethical intentionality, and liberation through mindful and compassionate living in the Buddha’s teachings—regardless of one’s sexual identity.

Returning to the Heart of the Path

How can a gay person be a good Buddhist?

If we live without harming ourselves or others—guided by mindfulness, kindness, and integrity—we are already walking the Noble Path. The Buddha cares less about who we love and more about how we live. We, too, can care in the same manner.

For years, I sought acceptance from religion and society yet no acceptance is found. But the early teachings of Buddha Gautama reminded me: it’s not the sexual identity that defines a practitioner, but intention and action.

May we all—regardless of orientation—walk this path with courage, clarity, and compassion. As mentioned in Ārya Asaṅga’s Abhidharmasamuccaya:

sattvāḥ sukhena samprayujyeran
May all sentient beings be endowed with happiness, for there is no one who rejects joy and happiness in their life.
sattvā duḥkhena viyujyeran
May all sentient beings be separated from sufferings, for there is no one who takes delight in sufferings.

All sentient beings, be they straight or gay, are in constant search for love, joy and happiness. There is no one who rejoices in suffering. Grounded in compassion, may we all inflict no more, unnecessary sufferings, on any being regardless of gender and sexuality.

Wise Steps:

Return to Early Texts: Focus on the Buddha’s ancient teachings in the Pāli Canon or Āgamas.
Live by Non-Harming: Let compassion and harmlessness guide your actions.
Practice Self-Acceptance: Embrace who you are while walking the path with sincerity and mindfulness.

References:

CBETA 2025.R1, T02, no. 99, p. 271b23-25.　
CBETA 2025.R1, T02, no. 99, p. 273b20-22.
CBETA 2025.R1, T01, no. 26, p. 616b23-29.
CBETA 2025.R1, T02, no. 125, p. 551a13-14.

Ep 59: Buddhism Saved My Life ft. Harry Ho

by Handful of Leaves | Jun 18, 2025 | Podcast | 0 comments

Summary

In this moving episode, Hary shares his journey through profound loss, chronic illness, and emotional burnout. Through the practice of Buddhism and meditation, he finds a path to healing, resilience, and self-compassion. His story is a testament to how the Dhamma can illuminate even the darkest chapters of life.

About the Speakers

👤 Haryono (Harry) is currently Senior Director in P&G, he has 14 years of experience working across APAC markets and lived across Singapore, Indonesia and Philippines. He had near death experience, having coma during his teenage life and now living with type 1 diabetes. Buddhism has helped him understand that there is always peace in whatever suffering and unhappiness with regards to mind and body and it’s up to us on how to make sense of it.

Key Takeaways

Self-kindness is foundational

Responding to suffering with compassion instead of self-blame begins the healing process.

Meditation builds inner strength

Regular practice helps manage emotional and physical pain by observing thoughts non-judgmentally.

The Dhamma offers practical tools

Buddhist teachings, when embodied, provide resilience, clarity, and a pathway out of mental suffering.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Hary: I thought that going to university, new chapter of life but it turns out to be a four years of nightmares.

[00:00:08] Hary: Two months after I moved, my mom passed away. Even more difficult is I didn’t know that my mom passed away. My family doesn’t wanna tell me because they thought that it will ruin my study. So I ended up learning it from my friends.

[00:00:26] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast, where we share practical Buddhist wisdom for happier life. My name is Cheryl, the host for today’s episode where we will be speaking with Hary.

[00:00:37] Hary: Hi Cheryl. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:39] Cheryl: And so today we will be speaking about how the Dhamma, the Buddha’s teachings, saved Hary’s life and how it helped him through his life crisis.

[00:00:53] Cheryl: So Hary, can you give us a quick introduction about yourself to get to know you?

[00:00:59] Hary: Hi everyone. I’m a survivor of Type one diabetes. So I’m 35 now, I’ve been living with diabetes for 16 years now. I was born a Buddhist, but I never really understanding Buddhism.

[00:01:11] Hary: I still remember childhood a lot of happy memories as well, but a lot, a lot, a lot of painful memories.

[00:01:18] Hary: When I was still young, my loved one, my grandparents, each one of them passed away. My mom was a gambling addict, and she will fight a lot with my dad. Sometimes they like scream at each other. All the neighbors will hear about it and there will be times when me and my brother just crying about it. But there’s also a lot of happy memories, right? The love of your grandparents, and when you’re sick, your mom is taking care of you.

[00:01:44] Hary: So it’s a mix of both, and that’s how life is. When I was young, there was always one thing where I found peace and I couldn’t understand it until now when I learn about Dhamma. somehow I just love rains. When it’s raining I will just pull a chair, outside of the house and just be with the rain. Enjoying the breeze of the rain, the sound of the rain, and the peace of not being anyone, not have to worry about the future, thinking of the past. Only now that I know that it’s a form of being mindful.

[00:02:15] Hary: So I moved to Singapore when I was 17. But then that was the four years in university was one of the toughest period of my life. And diabetes is one of them.

[00:02:27] Hary: But diabetes is not the only thing. My mom has been sick for a really, really long time. Two months after I moved to Singapore , my mom passed away. Even more difficult is I didn’t know that my mom passed away. My family doesn’t wanna tell me because they thought that it will ruin my study. So I ended up learning it from my friends.

[00:02:47] Cheryl: How did you take that in when you heard from your friends?

[00:02:50] Hary: I was just crying in a very devastating state of mind. It was very painful memory. Like even now, the painful memory still bring up the unpleasant feelings. Then I quickly book the tickets back at home so that I can attend the funeral and say my last goodbye before all the burial and stuff.

[00:03:09] Hary: And that was like death keep coming up, right? Always something that I was always dreadful about, sometimes to the point that I felt that it’s easier for us to die than seeing our loved one die.

[00:03:21] Hary: And then after that, my medical complication is just gone worse. Six months before I was in coma for diabetes, I was infected with tuberculosis, I will feel pain after just 15 minutes of walking. After 30 minutes of walking, it’ll be unbearable pain. I thought that going to university, you know, new chapter of life but it turns out to be a four years of nightmares where there’s a lot of suffering.

[00:03:47] Cheryl: While all of that hitting you at a very, very young age. How did the Dhamma, that was just a theory became meaningful to you?

[00:03:56] Hary: I didn’t really found out Dhamma until I was probably at my breaking point, right. I remember I have to sort of like injecting myself every time I go out lunch and dinner with friends.

[00:04:07] Hary: And the emotional swing from high blood sugars, low blood sugars, I couldn’t really understand how it affected my emotions. So I went into a state of depression. But I was able to move out of the depression by telling myself that life is so unfair. If life is so unfair, I have to work five times harder to be able to compete with other people.

[00:04:31] Hary: I was able to move a bit of from the depression, but by putting a lot of more self pressure. But think about it, that, that just make you self criticize, putting a lot more stress on yourself.

[00:04:44] Cheryl: But at the short term, it seems to be the best coping mechanism. Correct? Correct. But for the long term, it just burnt you out all the way.

[00:04:51] Hary: Exactly, and it really did happen, right?

[00:04:53] Hary: I was lucky enough to join P&G. It is a good company, treated me extremely well, but work can be very stressed, so that bottle up stress eventually exploded. I could not sleep well. When I go into meeting and when the meeting doesn’t go well, I would like overthink and self criticize.

[00:05:13] Hary: I should have said this, I should have said that. I should have prepared this, should have prepared that. And I keep thinking and lingering over and over to the point that I don’t sleep. I don’t have time to go out with my friends anymore and then that was the moment in time I felt like life is just — on top of all the suffering that you already have with the mental suffering, I was like “why is life worth living?”

[00:05:34] Hary: And why do I have to go through every day? Then one point in time I said that, guys, this is so unbearable, I need to find a cure. Then, probably this is coincidence in life that I went to a talk and the talk topic was how the mind works. It was talked by one of the Buddhist practitioners in Singapore.

[00:05:54] Hary: She actually talk about how the mind create all these suffering and how, if we are not being too personal with it, we don’t need to suffer this much. And somehow it just resonate with me that everything that I created is really self-created. It’s not because of external environment. And then I talked to her after the talk.

[00:06:15] Hary: So I said that, Hey, I’m so unhappy in life. What is your suggestion? And her advice is so simple. Say that “Hary, you just need to strengthen your mind so that you are not caught up into this mental suffering.” The only way to do that is that you need to strengthen your mind through meditations. And she gave an analogy about preparing for marathon. If you never run for a marathon and you try to run for a marathon, you’re never able to do that, right? It will be a massive suffering because your body is just not built to it, right? Same with the mental suffering. So she told me that, Hary, I just started a Friday meditation class in the evening.

[00:06:54] Hary: Why don’t you try to join? So I started to go to the Friday meditation class and I try to do it every day. And gosh, it’s so difficult to meditate.

[00:07:07] Hary: Especially when you just love thinking, love solving problem, love to create. So your mind just couldn’t stop thinking. And then I always felt that I practice very diligently. I do it every day. And I get nothing after putting so much effort. But there was one night I was telling myself that, after all the effort that I give, if it doesn’t work, it’s okay.

[00:07:29] Hary: And that night when I was meditating, my mind went into a very deep concentration zone where it was just all contentment.

[00:07:38] Hary: There’s no thinking and it’s just so nice. And when I came out of the meditations, that’s where everything is just in slow motions and she then talked more about there is a Buddhism learning that you have to experience and learn. And that’s how I learned more about Buddhism and how my journey to practice started.

[00:07:59] Cheryl: This is really, really incredible and your experience where you let go of all the expectations to get a calm mind just reminded me of Venerable Ananda striving for enlightenment. After the Buddha passed, he was rushing to get enlightened before the, you know, the First Buddhist Council. And. Whole night. Right? The whole night. He was just trying so hard to get enlightened. And then when he kind of, semi gave up, right? He just put his head down to the pillow and then the moment his head touched the pillow because of all that letting go, he just achieved enlightenment.

[00:08:32] Hary: Exactly. And, it’s like when we read it, it’s like stories, but when you learn more Buddhism, it’s really about letting go, letting go of craving, clinging, the self, the self-view, investigating internally then, operating externally as like there is a being with an external world.

[00:08:51] Hary: So, so yeah, that’s the power of Buddhism and the power of the Dhamma where it encourage investigations. When you experience it, you start to like, oh, so that’s what it means. And then it gives you a lot more courage and understanding that there is a path that can really end the suffering in this lifetime alone.

[00:09:09] Cheryl: So I want to understand, from the first time you attended the talk and your first experience of stillness what shifted in you and how did you then relate to your suffering differently after that? Because the diabetes still remains, you are still currently having, right?

[00:09:28] Hary: Yeah. And again, the stillness is just a momentary stillness. Then after that, when the stillness disappear, life, the suffering still back, right? But at least it gives me a confidence that there is that moment where I don’t feel much suffering, but I only feel contentment.

[00:09:46] Hary: So that was the first time where I said that, you know what? I’m gonna study Buddhism really, really intensively. I went for Buddhism 101. I spend my Saturday, Sunday learning Buddhism and go for more meditation classes, and put more intention and intentionality and use my weekends within that, right? Then when you’re able to meditate longer in time, you are able to see how just the mind works in more minute parts right? Now, how does it help with the diabetes management? It helps with a lot of self control, right? Because when you are someone who’s lived with diabetes, first of all, you need to maintain a very healthy lifestyle, so even though there is so many good food in the world, you have to put a lot of restraint.

[00:10:31] Hary: Even though when craving arises, you know, don’t go into that craving. How do you see how the mind works and then how do you put more discipline by just watching the mind more and then let go of your craving of all the nice food that is poisonous to you. More importantly, diabetes is not something that caused me a lot of suffering to be very honest, because I felt like the mental suffering from all the things that have happened is so much more for me than my bodily sort of like pain, discomfort.

[00:11:05] Hary: So Buddhism for me, really, really take me out of that cycle of mental suffering. I’m still suffering day on day, there is still things that cause unhappiness in life, but Buddhism helps me to not get cling to that mental state.

[00:11:22] Hary: So for example, you go to work, it didn’t go as per your plans, when that unhappiness started to come, the self criticism come again and then just see that, it just arises and then just watching it. And rather than keep giving a lot of story and energies to the thought, you just let it go and watch it, and then slowly disappear.

[00:11:41] Hary: And that’s where I can live daily, having a lot more contentment and that’s how Buddhism kind of like pulled me out from that cycle of suffering.

[00:11:53] Cheryl: I’m just curious at this stage of your practice what do you think is an aspect of Dhamma, which you still find difficult to apply in your daily life, especially when the mental suffering that arises is very strong?

[00:12:11] Hary: I realize that it will become stronger if I do not keep my practice. But remember, I used to give a lot of excuse why I could not practice.

[00:12:19] Hary: But the last retreat in December where I was with Luang Por Viradhammo retreat in Malaysia, somehow just give me a new determination that, you know what, I will stick with the practices from now on. There is no more excuses, no matter how hard it is, right? So since then, I try to always wake up in the morning, even though it’s tiring to, you know, meditations right?

[00:12:50] Hary: Making coffee in the morning. It’s also the time to practice, right? Because I kept being reminded by many senior monks, they say that, hey, you don’t really need a time to meditate. You can also meditate by doing your daily activity. Because the idea of meditation is really about watching the feeling of the mind, the emotion of the mind. And these days what I like to do is just keep watching on the heart.

[00:13:12] Cheryl: What do you mean watching the heart?

[00:13:14] Hary: Watching the heart is not the physical organ of the heart. In Pali, they call it Citta, some of the monks call it the mind, some of it call it the heart. I found it, it’s a lot more closest to the heart because when we are stressed, there is a lot of compressing energies in this area. So when I was watching the heart, just keep it opened, right? If there is pleasant and unpleasant feeling, rather than pushing it away, I just watch it and accept it in the heart.

[00:13:46] Hary: It helps a bit steady the emotions more throughout, there’s a lot more kindness because you just stay in the heart, right? And somehow I find heart… there’s a lot of kindness in the heart, you can be a lot more kinder to also other people.

[00:14:01] Hary: And you tend to accept both the unhappiness and the happiness without attaching to both the pleasant and unpleasant sensation.

[00:14:10] Cheryl: you know, I’ve heard Ajahn Jayasaro share that the equation of suffering “S” = “P” x “R” And “P” is pain, r resistance or the non-acceptance of it multiplies the pain equals suffering.

[00:14:25] Cheryl: And with that equation, there is actually a situation where you can have pain, but because you have zero resistance, you can actually have zero suffering.

[00:14:38] Hary: Absolutely, and I can attest to that. When we practice over time we keep learning new things.

[00:14:43] Hary: There was one time where, I think I was pretty good at meditation because I practice a lot and when you’re good in meditations you are like, oh, there is like unpleasant feeling, push it away. You try to kind of like bury it right with a lot of your mental strength, but I realized that it never really helps.

[00:15:02] Hary: It helps on that momentary in time, but it will always come back and it come back typically stronger. Same thing with bodily pain. When you’re meditating, you have like a leg pain. When you’re like, oh, leg pain, you go away. I will just stay in awareness because I don’t like you.

[00:15:18] Hary: And the, the pain tends to become multipliers because it will come back. But when you’re just accepting it, like I said, like open the heart and be kind to the pain because the pain always there, the pain just much, much lesser because you are accepting it. You are allowing it to be present.

[00:15:37] Hary: But you are not attaching yourself that I am in pain. There is just a pain. There is a bodily sensations. And one of the trick that I also do for people who are practicing quite well for the eight precept, right? Where you only eat once a day and then you don’t eat anymore. You’ll feel hungry, right? And that is unpleasant sensation. So if you accept the feeling of hunger because you know, hunger will arise because there is a condition to it, right?

[00:16:03] Hary: Then you perceive that as hunger, and then you’re just allowing that to come in, and then when the hunger feeling dissipated, it’s just a warm sensation on the stomach. That’s what I felt that just allowing it to come rather than pushing away.

[00:16:18] Hary: Because when you say that, oh, I’m hungry, or I’m so miserable with hunger, it will just multiply that again. You’re giving it a lot of thoughts, a lot of energies.

[00:16:27] Cheryl: All the suffering comes when we attach to the sensation and start to add the likes and dislikes, thoughts about it, opinions about it, and that’s where we suffer.

[00:16:37] Cheryl: But if we just simply boil it down to the essence, it’s really just a sensation that arises, exist for a while, and it ceases, nothing more to that.

[00:16:45] Hary: Right. Yeah, it’s an analogy of illusions. There are external things that happens to us, but we creating a lot more illusion or what I call as unnecessary illusions and storytelling that create that suffering. When you are in that zone, why don’t you just say that, hey, there’s just a storytelling that is happening to yourself, and it’s just a story, right? Don’t take so much of meaning about it. Just stop, you know, believing in that story.

[00:17:12] Cheryl: And I want to ask you now, with the inner resources that you have built to take care of your heart and yourself, what would you tell yourself in the darkest moments in your life?

[00:17:23] Hary: I don’t think I have that darkest moment anymore. And that’s why I believe that the Dhamma pulled me out of that darkest moment. Yeah there is a bit of suffering here and there, but it’s a momentary suffering because you can, with Dhamma understanding, you can just like understand suffering as just suffering.

[00:17:41] Hary: And suffering also arises and passes away. And when it passes away, then there is no more suffering. When you see the Dhamma, you understand the Dhamma, the power of the Dhamma. I will not trade anything in the world for it.

[00:17:56] Hary: So for example, I have a late night call. A lot of business problem to solve, and then my mind go into like, oh, like stress. Then I remember that, you know, the work day is already end. I cannot solve it now anyway, so just compartmentalize it, putting it away, and meditate.

[00:18:16] Hary: Just be with my present, watch the heart and then just go to sleep. And then the day arises, Monday’s gonna come, the problem’s gonna be there, will come again. Then you understand that it arises, let it arise in the heart, and then slowly it will die down from the heart, and then you go on and live life in more contentment.

[00:18:36] Cheryl: Where you’re at now, what would you tell the you who first found out about your mother’s passing away? What advice or what comfort would you offer?

[00:18:47] Hary: I will tell myself that, I’m sure you have a lot of suffering right now. It’s okay to suffer. Because at that point in time when there is a lot of suffering, because of obviously losing someone that is very close to you, create a lot more suffering in the feeling of regret. Regret of, I could be kinder to my mom, I could be nicer to my mom. I could call her more often from Singapore. A regret of leaving her in pain.

[00:19:20] Hary: So I’ll tell myself that you are in a lot of suffering. It’s okay. Be kind to yourself. You cannot change the past. Don’t let the past eat you. I’m sure that you can do better, but you know it’s already done. So falling into the place of regret and keep thinking about where you should have, could have done better doesn’t really help.

[00:19:46] Hary: So just be kind to yourself.

[00:19:47] Cheryl: Thank you for sharing that, Hary. And now, what does a meaningful life mean to you and how do you make your life meaningful every single day?

[00:20:00] Hary: Meaningful life to me is being content at every single time, at every single moment to be very honest. I know a lot of people have a lot of bigger sort of like mission in life, want to elevate suffering of a lot of people. For me, maybe because I’ve also seen a lot of suffering in myself, my first mission is to remove that as much as I can while also helping other people as much as I can.

[00:20:28] Hary: But where meaningful life to me is be more and more content with life, be less and less personal with life. I always think about this life, that started after 19 years when I almost died, is my second life. In a weird way, I do not fear about death anymore because it’s my second life, right?

[00:20:51] Hary: So whatever additional day I have until that is an incremental life that I had in this world. But I do want to practice as much as I can to see the Dhamma and the deeper part of the Dhamma so that we can live life that has more contentment. When you see a lot of all the very senior monk who practices all the way through their entire lifetime, for me, I’ve never seen people who are as happy and as content as them. Even though they’re old, even though they are having a lot of suffering, right? With the aging and health problem. I want to be like them, so light and I don’t think there’s anything that bothers them. They still feel unpleasant feeling, they still feel pain, but they’re just not bothered by it. Right? So that’s my goal in life. I wanna be more like them so they become an aspiration.

[00:21:43] Hary: While we heard a lot of stories about the Buddha, I’ve never seen the Buddha. I know he exists, but I cannot see that. But that is how I project, like if a Buddha would have experienced life, it’s like the embodiment in them, and that’s how the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha cultures continue. And the Sangha members are the people who you truly respect. And it give you an aspiration that what is the fruit of practice will be right here and now in the present moment.

[00:22:11] Cheryl: Yeah. And I think here and now is something that is so particularly inspiring that the Buddha walk the Earth 2,500 years ago. But yet today in 2025, we still see people who practice the Dhamma well, embodying such beautiful qualities and that we can also be able to cultivate and train ourselves to that level.

[00:22:31] Hary: Absolutely, absolutely right. So when Ajahn Chah always mention about when you’re breathing, you can meditate anytime. You can be content every time, right? So yeah, we have a long way, journey to go to slowly let go of the things that bond us to suffering.

[00:22:48] Cheryl: What is something that you still find difficult in letting go at this moment?

[00:22:55] Hary: Bodily pain is still extremely hard because I have a bit of scoliosis, so sometimes when I sit too long the pain can be quite unbearable.

[00:23:05] Hary: The ego also can be very hard in terms of the work context. Because we all want to achieve something, and we don’t like to be blamed on something, right? So I think that ego it’s still there, you always want a nicer output.

[00:23:23] Cheryl: It’s like the eight worldly winds, but we only want four of it. All the good stuff.

[00:23:27] Hary: Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, where I started to make more of the daily practices, I remember that business was very tough at work. There’s just a lot of debates with the leadership teams, and everyone’s, when debating the egos is like very strong, right?

[00:23:45] Hary: So one of the things that I’m practicing right now is to be extremely kind. And don’t put my own ego in that conversations, right? So always there like, Hey, how can I help you? Why do you feel that way? And then I realized that people respond with kindness. Rather than when you try to debate because you try to prove your point is better.

[00:24:07] Hary: So these days I try to let go as much as I can. Try to be kind to that person and they responded. And I found that, that in a difficult environment, they’ll respond the kindness, it become like, oh, I can understand your point of view.

[00:24:23] Hary: Here’s my point of view. How do we work? And then sometime my colleagues say that, how come the boss doesn’t flip on you? But it flipped on us even though I was bringing the same point.

[00:24:34] Hary: But I always told them that, perhaps I just speak it slow. There’s not much of intention of debating.

[00:24:40] Cheryl: you are saying the exact same thing that your colleagues are saying. Just your whole intention is much more wholesome. So the way it’s received is also a lot more open, a lot more collaborative.

[00:24:51] Hary: Correct. When you speak with kindness, the first thing that will happen more is that you smile more also when you make your point, right? And when you are a bit more mindful also with the kindness, you tend to speak slower so that you can see other peoples’ body reaction better. Then when they want to speak, you can already start pausing rather than keep going on the train journey of like sharing your idea. So then you allow people to comes in naturally and then there is real discussions instead of it become a debate.

[00:25:22] Hary: So that was what I found was sort of like a new interesting Dhamma practical application in a stressful work environment.

[00:25:31] Cheryl: I just recall one very tense conversation I had with a manager and she was getting very emotional. She was raising her voice and starting to use a lot of accusation. I was just being very mindful, speaking deliberately, very slowly and in a calm tone and opening the conversation into how can we solve this problem? And after a while, she was able to calm herself down and then she realized, oh, she’s really reacting too over emotionally, and that then her focus came back to the right thing, to the problem at hand.

[00:26:06] Cheryl: It really does work and, and people really react to the way that we try to show up.

[00:26:12] Hary: Correct. And that’s another example of the Dhamma practical applications that has fruits in it. Right. That we can see here and now.

[00:26:20] Cheryl: And is there a final, a key message that you want to share with our listeners today?

[00:26:27] Hary: I only have one advice — Always be kind to yourself, no matter how bad hardship and suffering that you face. You have two options. Either blame yourself or you can be more kind to yourself. You know, I preferred the second one over the first one because I tried the first one.

[00:26:47] Hary: And it didn’t really help. And I went to even more suffering because of that. So whoever you are there who are facing some challenges start always, always by being kind to yourself.

[00:27:01] Hary: And then hopefully some of you who are practicing the Dhamma can use the Dhamma to kind of like alleviate a little bit of the suffering day by day with your practice.

[00:27:12] Cheryl: One way I have been practicing being kind to myself, is actually just starting the day by acknowledging the good qualities, acknowledging the effort that I try in times that are difficult or in areas that I’m struggling or not yet good at. And just taking a moment to realize, ooh, it’s not easy at all.

[00:27:33] Cheryl: And that the fact that I’m still showing up, I’m still putting effort. It’s deserving of a pat on the back.

[00:27:39] Hary: Absolutely. And then also you can also think about things that are, you’ve done good, right? Those of you who practice generosity to other people, you can also reflect that, right?

[00:27:50] Hary: Hey, you’ve done good in life. Give yourself pat in the back. Or sometimes, by the way, I also like to do this when I’m extremely stressed: I say that it’s okay, then I go back to my breathing.

[00:28:01] Hary: If I cannot go, if I cannot go to my heart, automatically, I’ll just do this. It’s okay. Life will be okay. You know, all this suffering will be okay. You’re not alone. Right? And I tell myself that, you know, I’m here with you whatever that suffering is.

[00:28:15] Cheryl: You know, just putting my hand here, I already just feel so so, so comfortable and so soothed. so yeah, thank you for sharing that as well. And thank you for sharing about your journey and it’s extremely inspiring how you have gone through basically a 360 degree change in your mindset in how you view suffering as well. So to all our listeners, thank you for staying to the end as well. So stay tuned and join us in our next episode. Stay happy and wise.

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen, Nai Kai Lee, Amelia Toh, Hannah Law, Shin Hui Chong

Editor and transcriber of this episode:

Hong Jiayi, Tan Si Jing, Bernice Bay, Cheryl Cheah

Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan

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Ep 58: What Vesak Means to Us ft. Jiayi and Soon

by Handful of Leaves | May 30, 2025 | Podcast

Summary

In this heartfelt and humorous episode of the Handful of Leaves podcast, Cheryl, Jiayi, and Soon explore what Vesak means to them and how their understanding of Buddhism has evolved over time. From their childhood experiences of Vesak filled with rituals and free food to a more mature appreciation of the Dhamma, the hosts share personal stories of transformation, gratitude, and deepening practice. They reflect on how the historical Buddha’s life and teachings remain relevant today, emphasizing that Vesak is not just a holiday but a time to embody generosity, renunciation, and inner growth.

About the Speakers

👤 Hong Jiayi works in communications. She began her Dhamma journey last year, a path that has since become a grounding presence in her life. She volunteers with DAYWA, a community for young Buddhist working adults in Singapore, and serves as an editor on the podcast team at Handful of Leaves. Outside of work and Dhamma, she trains in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, a sport that keeps her humble, grounded, and occasionally squished.

👤 Teo Heng Soon (known as Soon in short) graduated from the University of Melbourne and is now a human capital consultant. Passionate about people, he has been a leader with multiple volunteer organisations like the Dyslexic Association of Singapore. Buddhist Fellowship Youth has been his Dhamma home for 12 years. Honing his leadership skills, he has learnt to give Dhamma talks and conduct workshops and sutta discussions. On a personal level, Soon is passionate about the arts – from Karate to Photography.

Key Takeaways

From Ritual to Meaningful Practice

All three hosts began their Buddhist journeys with ritualistic and often superficial connections to Vesak. Over time, their understanding matured into a deeper appreciation of the Buddha’s teachings and the symbolic meaning behind rituals like bathing the Buddha and offering flowers.

Vesak as a Celebration of Giving, Not Taking

Vesak marks a shift from self-centered wishes and offerings (e.g., praying for good grades or Wi-Fi) to embodying the Buddha’s spirit of selfless giving and renunciation. The day becomes a powerful reminder to let go of attachments and to serve the community with compassion.

The Best Offering Is Practice

While physical offerings are symbolic, the Buddha emphasized offering one’s practice—living ethically, meditating, and cultivating wisdom—as the highest form of devotion. Celebrating Vesak, therefore, becomes a chance to reflect on and renew one’s commitment to the Dhamma in daily life.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl: A love for the Buddha and the sacrifice that he’s given,

[00:00:03] Jiayi: and a gratitude to his teachings. And also for the fact that his teachings from 2,500 years ago can still flourish in today’s world. That itself is also a celebration of its own.

[00:00:15] Cheryl: The Dhamma has transformed my life.

[00:00:18] Soon: The meaning of Vesak drastically changed. From taking to becoming a giver.

[00:00:23] Cheryl: Happiness is always defined as having more and more choice, but actually in the dynamic sense of way, happiness is really having the freedom from choice.

[00:00:37] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcasts where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happy life. My name is Cheryl.

[00:00:45] Jiayi: I’m Jiayi,

[00:00:46] Soon: and I am Soon,

[00:00:47] Cheryl: and today we’ll be talking about Vesak and what it means to us. So Soon, you have been in the Buddhist scene for a long time. Can you tell us exactly what your background is?

[00:00:58] Soon: Yeah, I’m like a 老鸟 (old-timer) but inside, still youthful. So I spent my entire life as a Buddhist or what we call a joss stick Buddhist, right. Going to the temple, burning some stuff, praying for good grades. I remember one of the years the GameBoy came out and I was praying for a GameBoy that when you press this button, a game would come out and change.

[00:01:21] Cheryl: Wow.

[00:01:21] Soon: So there was like Buddhism for most of my life. Then one day my brothers introduced the rest of my family, my parents as well to this place called Buddhist Fellowship, and that was when I started to learn more beyond the ritual. Right to the actual teachings, to the actual way of living. So I would say that I’m not really a 老鸟 (old-timer) in Buddhism. I’ve only been practicing Buddhist for about eight years now.

[00:01:46] Cheryl: So you are an evolved wishing tree Buddhist.

[00:01:49] Soon: Mm, yes.

[00:01:52] Cheryl: And what about yourself?

[00:01:55] Jiayi: I also a bit similar, like Soon I grew up being a joss stick Buddhist, always praying to the Buddha before my exams to help me pass it. And like competitions, please help me get a good medal. But only like last year where I started to learn a bit more about the teachings, and got a better understanding of Buddhism. Yeah.

[00:02:18] Cheryl: So you are the 临时抱佛脚?

[00:02:21] Jiayi: Yeah, totally me.

[00:02:23] Cheryl: So for those who don’t understand, yeah. That one is the last-minute-hug-Buddha’s-feet.

[00:02:33] Cheryl: And for myself, I have been a Buddhist for wow, maybe 10 plus years.

[00:02:39] Jiayi: Wow.

[00:02:39] Cheryl: And it was when I was very stressed during my exam periods and I just randomly went to a temple because they had free wifi and free aircon.

[00:02:51] Jiayi: No way. You did not.

[00:02:52] Cheryl: So I’m the cheapo (cheapskate) Buddhist.

[00:02:56] Cheryl: Okay. So tell me more. What was your first experiences of Vesak, if you remember?

[00:03:04] Soon: Mm. Well that we go back many, many years. I can’t really remember a specific Vesak, because I’ve been going for these events for a long time. But what I recall very vividly was coming to Vesak because there were a lot of pretty girls. Don’t tell my fiance that.

[00:03:25] Cheryl: Keep that, keep that in the edit.

[00:03:27] Soon: So, but I think what Vesak means to me, it’s your community or your friends, your family coming together for common good, which is living a good life, just as the Buddha had done. And when I was a kid, I remember training for a dance performance so that we could, you know, propagate Buddhism we would play songs, we will have activities like there’s this activity where you throw a ball and then if it hits the thing, you’ll go down. So we had all these fun activities.

[00:04:03] Cheryl: Oh, the dunking into the water one.

[00:04:05] Soon: Yes. Yes. So that was my childhood, like really just coming together with friends and just celebrating a good day right. In the eyes of what Buddha did and celebrating what he did, what he propagated, and how he lived.

[00:04:19] Cheryl: Mm. And do you find anything similar on your side?

[00:04:23] Jiayi: I didn’t really have that friends part ’cause I don’t celebrate Buddhism with friends. Right. But it has always been a family thing where every year during Vesak we would go to like Kong Meng San Phor Kark See Monastery and then we would do like three steps, one bow, and then maybe like bathing the Buddha.

[00:04:47] Jiayi: Yeah. And I think those, those activities like kind of bring the family together and make us like a bit happy on that day. Yeah. Just to celebrate the holiday. Yeah.

[00:04:58] Cheryl: Actually, my experience was a lot closer to Jiayi’s one where we also went to get all the very fragrant flower water from the 玉佛 (jade Buddha).

[00:05:09] Cheryl: And I would collect it and I would just shower the next day. ’cause it smells so good, right? Yeah. And of course the free food. But my experience was a lot more with my family, not so much with friends. And, yeah, I just remembering just not understanding anything, but just getting bags of fragrance smelling stuff.

[00:05:30] Jiayi: Mm. Steal the flower?

[00:05:33] Cheryl: No, no, no. They gave it to us, maybe. Yeah. Disclaimers. Disclaimers. Yeah. But so how do you tell your friends, you know, like over the public holiday when you go back to school, what do you tell your friends that, you know, what do you do over the weekend as a Buddhist?

[00:05:52] Jiayi: I say, I go 拜拜. Ah, yeah. Then maybe I’ll share that just to go for three steps one bow. But I don’t really know what it means. I don’t know why I’m doing it, but I just feel happy that I do it. Mm-hmm. So there’s no reasoning behind it. It is just like, oh, I’m doing just because.

[00:06:12] Soon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Actually I quite agree with Jiayi as well. Your question kind of took me a step back. I was like, actually, yeah, we don’t really do a good job of sharing what Vesak is, what Buddhism is to our friends. So, because that never crossed my mind. We just take it as a public holiday, right? Just like, okay, yeah, I have some fun, go to carnival, raise some money, donate some food, and okay, next day back, back to normal.

[00:06:39] Cheryl: Yeah.

[00:06:40] Soon: Yeah. So I think that’s a really good question, Cheryl. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:06:44] Cheryl: So it seems that in our Buddhist practice, we all have evolved. We have learned a lot more about the Dhamma. So at this point, how would you explain to your friends, or even your loved ones meaningfully, what does Vesak mean?

[00:06:59] Soon: I would say Vesak, it is really about coming together, to do a common good. So there’s so many things that you can do on Vesak Day. And when we start to discuss, talk and, and learn more, we realize there’s lessons behind the rituals. Mm. Right. The bathing of the Buddha. What does it mean? Offering of flowers, offering of incenses, you know, coming together to give food to the temple, to the monastic, or to do some charity work as well.

[00:07:30] Soon: All this meaning is to help us let go, is to renunciate, is to think less of ourselves because we give a lot of examples right. I came for girls. You came for free wifi, Jiayi was a bit more wholesome. Okay. I mean studies, right? So it’s this constant… Vesak… I think sometimes because of a lack of education or a lack of discussion, right?

[00:07:54] Soon: It becomes a day where sometimes we start taking. Like, oh, I wanna go to the temple because I want this. And I think as my practice has developed it’s less of what can the temple do for me, but more about what can I do for my community or friends, right? Bring people together, doing a common good. So I think that’s how the meaning of Vesak has has drastically changed: It’s from taking to becoming a giver, right?

[00:08:23] Soon: Spending time with your family, bring your family together, right? Doing something that’s wholesome and yeah, rituals will always be rituals, but. I think when we have the education, it just becomes a little more meaningful.

[00:08:38] Cheryl: Wow. Full score. A hundred mark. I give you.

[00:08:41] Jiayi: How do I continue from there? You said, you said everything perfectly.

[00:08:45] Cheryl: Exactly.

[00:08:47] Jiayi: Maybe to add on, I really agree with what you say. It’s not about taking but about giving. Right. And in that sense, we are also celebrating the qualities of the Buddha because his generosity, the historical Buddha, his generosity has been really, really great. He, after he attained enlightenment, he could have just retired, right?

[00:09:07] Jiayi: He has reached the pinnacle of life. He didn’t have to do anything and just bliss out. Until he passes away. But he chose to be a teacher for 45 years to go and walk the so many kilometers in ancient India, just to teach people. And when we recollect about that during Vesak, I think that can bring a lot of joy.

[00:09:31] Jiayi: Yeah. And a gratitude to his teachings and also for the fact that his teachings from 2,500 years ago can still flourish in today’s world. That itself is also a celebration of its own. So perhaps for Vesak now, it would be to remember the compassion, the resilience, the wisdom of the Buddha, and also celebrate all of those things with our friends and family.

[00:10:02] Cheryl: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And let’s not forget that Vesak also is a commemoration of the Buddha’s life. His birth, specifically death and the passing away into Parinibanna. And I think as I grew in my Dhamma journey as well, what came from taking all the free stuff, evolved into really just a respect and, yeah, a love for the Buddha and the sacrifice that he’s given. And a reflection of how the Dhamma has transformed my life. Yeah, yeah. So on, on these days also, I make it a point to honor it the way the Buddha wanted, which is not — of course, you know, flowers, fragrances are all beautiful ways of offering our love — but the Buddha always wanted us to offer our practice. Yeah. So I always use these days as a day to intensify my determination to practice the eight precepts, and to practice, yeah, meditation, listening to talks and giving. It’s for sure ritualistic to a certain extent, but it’s also very beautiful in the purification of the mind.

[00:11:15] Jiayi: Yeah, sure. I did have a question. Maybe like eight precept can be seen as like, oh, you’re just adding extra hardship to your life. Life is already hard already. Why do you wanna take away entertainment from our life? But then why do you wanna do this? And why do you do this on Vesak Day? Why did the Buddha even give us restrictions in life. Why? Why are we celebrating the fact that he’s giving us restrictions? Oh shit. Sorry. Just playing devil’s advocate here.

[00:11:47] Cheryl: I think that’s a really good question, Jiayi. I think we have to go back to understanding the five precepts and the eight precepts. So the five precepts are non-negotiable by the Buddha, right?

[00:11:58] Cheryl: So die die, you have to hold onto it because those are the things that will protect you from going down to, I guess, lower states of mind, and lower states of even like realms, right, in the next rebirth. But when it comes to the extending three more precepts, which is no sexual conduct, no beautification, no entertainment, and no lying on high, luxurious, sleeping places.

[00:12:25] Cheryl: So for that, it’s really — sorry, one more. Right no eating. Oh, no eating after noon. And all of this is nothing to do with morality. Like it’s not immoral to eat at night, but it is more about the sense restraint. And the point of that is because the Buddha wants us to practice going against our likes and dislikes because in this world, there’s nothing that we can — we cannot get everything that we want. So the less we are attached to the things that we want, the less suffering we’ll have. So going against our craving by this method is really, you know, important for us time and time again. I’m actually not sure. Soon, do you know if the Buddha actually asked us to practice 8 precepts on Vesak?

[00:13:13] Soon: I don’t think so. Right. So the idea of practicing 8 precepts came about when people came to the Buddha. Mm-hmm. Because there were so many other religions during the half moon and the full moon day, they’re like, “wow, Buddha, look at them. They’re like, doing something extra. How about us?”

[00:13:32] Soon: So there was actually no meaning to those days. And then Buddha was like, okay, yeah, let’s give meaning. Right. Giving meaning is important as well. So he is like, okay, yeah, this is a time where you can intensify your practice. Instead of five precepts, you can do eight precepts. For some people that follow the Chinese Buddhist way of doing things, they eat vegetarian on those days.

[00:13:55] Soon: So once again, it’s a day of wholesomeness. And Jiayi, to answer your question, why do we have more restrictions in our life? I think that goes back to the idea of how the material world works, where whatever is comfortable is good for us. Whatever’s uncomfortable is bad for us. But is it really the case?

[00:14:17] Soon: You know, I was reading a study done by IMH in Singapore and almost one third of 15 to 35 year olds in Singapore are feeling more empty. They’re feeling more tense. There’s all these negative feelings, and one of the reasons is social media.

[00:14:35] Cheryl: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:36] Soon: And what social media does for us is at any time I can get a dopamine hit. Right. And that’s comfortable. Like, I just wanna break, I just wanna relax. Okay. Swipe, swipe, swipe. But is it really good for us in the long run? Mm-hmm. So there is benefit to restraining our sensors, there is benefit to restraining what we do. And all these things have actually long-term benefits.

[00:15:02] Soon: Mm-hmm. So for example, right, when we, a lot of people think, wow, buddhism is like sitting on a hill side, you know, where it’s peaceful and like, “Om”. But when we practice it in our day to day lives, if we are mindful day to day, moment to moment, we become better people. We are more aware of what goes through our mind and when we are more aware of what goes through our mind, we are more aware of what comes out. Right. Body, speech. So restraint is beneficial. Especially once again, once you understand the reason behind the ritual.

[00:15:43] Cheryl: And a lot of times in our modern society, I think happiness is always defined as having more and more choices. You get to, you know, get what you choose, but actually in the dynamic sense of way, happiness is really having the freedom from choice.

[00:15:59] Soon: Wow, beautiful, beautiful.

[00:16:01] Cheryl: Where you are free from your likes and dislikes and you can still be content and happy, whatever it is. Yeah.

[00:16:08] Jiayi: Wow. That’s beautiful.

[00:16:14] Soon: No, I actually completely agree with that. You know how I talk about how when we didn’t have a good understanding of Buddhism, we came in as takers. Wifi, so on, so forth.

[00:16:25] Cheryl: You’re never gonna let it go ah?

[00:16:29] Soon: But then once we start understanding the true Buddhism, we start to let go. And one of the things I let go of over the years is strong opinions. I will get into fights. I would talk people down. I even made someone cry. Yeah.

[00:16:47] Jiayi: How could you?

[00:16:48] Soon: I know, right? So I was very sharp with my words. And I think what the Dhamma, what Buddhism has taught me was to let go of those views. And because I can let go of these views, I can have different conversations with people from different faiths, different perspectives, and I can still treat them as a human being that I care about.

[00:17:10] Soon: So I think that’s, to me, the idea about renunciation once again. It’s really about letting go of this, “I am important. My views all matter”, right? Because when you lead a life that is so focused on me, me, me, me, me and I, there’s a lot more suffering. Yeah.

[00:17:28] Cheryl: Nice. So I guess, you know, the question then is with these reflections that we have, you know, that Vesak sparks in us, yeah, how do we, or how do you bring that into your daily life? How does this spirit of Vesak, right, like to put it in a weird way, manifest in your everyday life throughout the year. And yeah. I’m also curious to hear from you, yeah, like for example, in renunciation, can you share an example of how do you continue to let go, in your daily life and in the 364 days, other than Vesak?

[00:18:05] Soon: So I think that’s a beautiful question, Cheryl. The reason why there’s always a lot of emphasis on that specific day, right? It’s like any anniversary, any Valentine’s also. Yeah. Any birthday. Yes, there is importance in those specific days, but I’d rather treat my partner, my parents, my siblings, consistently good.

[00:18:28] Soon: And I think that’s how the mindset they can bring to the practice as well. It’s not just a day of holiness. Mm-hmm. And after that, we go back to it being a normal person, doing the negative things again. And I think the essence of Vesak, at least to me, it’s coming together with a community to do good together.

[00:18:48] Soon: And I think how that can manifest in a day to day life where we talk about renunciation, letting go, it’s when you have so many views already and assumptions that you make about the world, it’s very hard to talk to you as a person. Right. If I am a clean slate, if I say, “okay, there’s no me, there’s no I, that’s not mine”, when you share a problem with me, Cheryl, I won’t have all these judgements in my head. “Oh, you should have done this”, or “You should have done that.” “Oh, you shouldn’t do that.” ‘Cause a lot of times when people come to us with problems, we always, “okay, I know what to do, it’s too easy. I can solve this.”

[00:19:25] Soon: But when you come with a mindset of “I’m not a taker, I’m a giver. I’m gonna give space, I’m gonna give my energy, I’m gonna give my presence to you.”, that’s us letting go of our self-importance. So we always think of these Buddhism stuff as like the big things like Nibanna, or like I need to go to a meditation retreat then I can be good. Those are helpful. But all these small things that we do in our day-to-day life create a bigger condition for us to go on to do bigger things.

[00:19:59] Soon: For our practice, for our community of friends. So I think that’s how I see Vesak in my day-to-day life. If I am practicing the Dhamma, well, if every day is a hundred percent, how many percent is spent with wholesome thoughts, with wholesome actions? And how many percent is with unwholesome acts and unwholesome actions, sorry, with unwholesome acts and unwholesome thoughts. It’s that simple. We don’t have to theorize it. We don’t have to make it so difficult.

[00:20:31] Cheryl: And that’s the most important check and balance that we need to take care of every single day.

[00:20:35] Soon: Yeah,

[00:20:35] Cheryl: yeah. Thank you so much for sharing.

[00:20:38] Soon: No worries.

[00:20:39] Jiayi: I think I don’t have such a… my answer might be more superficial. For at least before I started practicing, I’m still quite a new Buddhist, right? But before I started practicing, I just saw Vesak as a day… oh, Buddha came into the world. Oh, Buddha got enlightened, which I don’t know, I don’t actually know what it meant. Okay. Yeah. Shower Buddha. Yeah. Fun. Oh, 三步一拜, oh, okay. Budha very great. Right? So I just, yes. Respect. But after learning a bit more about Buddhism, the life of the historical Buddha, the things he taught, you develop gratitude.

[00:21:22] Jiayi: I developed gratitude to his teachings, because it has helped me through times of difficulty. It has helped me to shift the way I see the world in a more skillful way, which means that I actually feel more happy in general. And with that gratitude, right? I think it’s also a good recollection object that I can have in daily life where when I’m having a bad day, oh, this person la, that person la, why I’m upset with myself. Then I will always remind myself that actually the Buddha had faith in all of us that we could attain enlightenment. Yeah. And that’s why he went to teach. Or else he teach for what? Yeah, he teach for what? If you cannot do it. He teach for what? But he’s so smart, right? So that’s why he go and teach. He know that we all got potential to be happy in life.

[00:22:14] Soon: Yeah.

[00:22:14] Jiayi: And that’s why he went to teach. And when I’m feeling upset, I’m feeling down, I think of that. Then be like, yes. ’cause Buddha said, so I’ll keep trying. I will not give up in the practice.

[00:22:25] Jiayi: Yeah. So I think that’s why

[00:22:26] Cheryl: you’ve got this,

[00:22:27] Jiayi: you’ve got this, right. You’re good enough. You’ve got this girl, you’ve got this. Yeah. So, I guess those gratitude, that faith the Buddha had in us and my faith in the Buddha helps me to continue to practice in daily life.

[00:22:42] Soon: Yeah, I don’t think your answer is any more superficial at all.

[00:22:48] Jiayi: Thank you. Cut that out then.

[00:22:52] Soon: Yeah. I don’t think your answer is superficial at all. I think faith is such an important thing and I think as people start being more logical, more scientific, we kind of lose that faith, right? That confidence in the Buddha’s teachings. Sometimes too much doubt as well leads us to analysis paralysis.

[00:23:09] Soon: Oh, what if this happened? What if Buddha didn’t exist? What if Buddha didn’t actually do this? It prevents us from acting and just trying. Right. Taking a leap of confidence and to test, oh yeah, Buddha said this. Let me investigate a bit more. And I think what you said, right, I think the beautiful thing to me about Buddhism is that Buddha believed in the human potential. We can do it. Yeah, we can do it. Right. Like it’s about not entirely relying on anything external. We are enough.

[00:23:44] Jiayi: So beautiful.

[00:23:44] Soon: You’re enough.

[00:23:46] Jiayi: You’re so beautiful. You’re good enough.

[00:23:50] Cheryl: And then the Buddha showed us the beauty of realizing the highest potential a human can ever realize to be free from greed, hatred and delusion. And what’s left is just pure unadulterated Metta (loving-kindness) and compassion.

[00:24:03] Soon: Beautiful.

[00:24:04] Jiayi: Aw. That warms the cockles of my heart.

[00:24:10] Cheryl: Aw. So I’m also just, again, very curious, right. Knowing what you know now, what do you wish you had known when you first encountered Vesak?

[00:24:21] Jiayi: I think, I wish I knew more context of the historical Buddha. And, I guess it’s also like, I wish I practiced earlier because, I only started practicing properly, right? Like last year. So I’m 26. I’m turning 26 this year. For the first 20 plus years of my life, just heeheehaha.

[00:24:47] Cheryl: Yeah.

[00:24:47] Jiayi: I just dunno what I’m doing. Like I’m Buddhist, but I dunno what I’m doing. And with that, like you start to cultivate all the different habits that come from your ignorance, right?

[00:25:00] Jiayi: And we go to Vesak, but you don’t know, don’t really know what it means. But now, actually this year will be my first Vesak as a like more practitioner, practitioner person. Practitioner. Yes. It’s my first year as a practitioner celebrating Vesak. I think the difference this year would be when I see like the Buddha statue, I cultivate more gratitude. When I offer flowers, I actually know what I’m doing. I know what it means. I’m not actually offering the flower to a godly Buddha who will receive the flowers from the heavenly realm. That’s not what’s happening. It’s actually to reflect on his teachings. And, if I knew all of this earlier, perhaps there’ll be greater appreciation of what this day actually means.

[00:25:53] Cheryl: The flower you offer for what?

[00:25:56] Jiayi: Because flower nice ma, you Valentine’s, you buy flower to a girlfriend. You’re not offering the flower to a girlfriend to recollect impermanence right. And yeah, so like flowers is like a nice gift and maybe it’s like a nice gift to the Buddha as well.

[00:26:10] Jiayi: But now we also know the best offering is our own practice, which is kind of like invincible, right? But yeah, so offering flowers also, it is great you do that, but the best one is still to offer your meditation, your generosity, your cultivation of wisdom, et cetera. Yeah.

[00:26:33] Cheryl: Yeah.

[00:26:33] Jiayi: What about you, Soon?

[00:26:35] Soon: I completely agree with the idea about context. I think whenever we talk about faith, that’s this story that has stuck in my mind is about Buddha with his supreme eye. He saw that there was this one person in a distant village, many kilometers away. He said, this person is ready to hear the Dhamma, and he trekked all the way hundreds of kilometers.

[00:26:59] Cheryl: Ah. He didn’t fly there.

[00:27:01] Jiayi: He got no supreme wings.

[00:27:04] Soon: He trekked all the way to go to that village just to speak to that one person because they were ready and willing to listen.

[00:27:10] Jiayi: During that time, there was no bus, no MRT. They don’t wear shoes also. Yeah. No shoes, right? I dunno. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Take that out.

[00:27:18] Cheryl: That’s fine. It’s fine.

[00:27:19] Jiayi: But no airplane. No, no bus, no eZ-link card.

[00:27:22] Cheryl: And it’s India, so the road is like next level one.

[00:27:26] Soon: Yeah. They just went on pilgrimage so they would know better. Yeah. So, wow. Like who would do that? Right? To put your physical and possibly mental, as a normal person right, stakes at risk just to help that one person.

[00:27:43] Cheryl: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:44] Soon: And I think when I heard about that story, the sacrifices that Buddha has gone through, I’m just, wow. Yeah. Like just saying now also makes me feel emotional, because of the compassion he had, because he wanted to help those with little dust in their eyes, those who are ready and willing to listen.

[00:28:02] Soon: And I think this also speaks about what Buddhism is, right? We, we are not here to make everyone Buddhist. We are here to speak to those who are ready to listen. Who are willing to have a chat to find out more. And I think that’s the spirit of, at least for me, being a Buddhist, is that investigative spirit, that spirit of questioning and trying to find what truth is.

[00:28:28] Soon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think having a little more context when I was younger, I would’ve appreciated more. I think, a similar example is sometimes, our parents say, “Hey. Be nicer to your grandparents.” You know, you’re just like, “Huh but why? They’re old people.” Right? Like, I used to fight so many times with my grandma, but if only I heard a little more about how she lived her life, how she sacrificed her youth, you know, to raise my mom, i would appreciate them more. So I think it’s going back to, you know, what stories are we telling our friends about what Vesak is?

[00:29:09] Cheryl: Mm.

[00:29:09] Soon: About who Buddha is. Is he a guy that just flies around or is he someone that really cares about those who are ready to listen, ready to practice? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:29:22] Jiayi: How about you, Cheryl?

[00:29:24] Jiayi: Arrow.

[00:29:25] Cheryl: Yeah. But, but thanks so much for humanizing the Buddha and reminding us, yeah. Reminding us that, you know, there is so much behind the rituals that we do and really remembering the significance of that as well. I wish I knew the Buddha more than just a statue. Yeah. So, so I wish I understood him more as a human being.

[00:29:51] Cheryl: Yeah, because my understanding of the Buddha for a long, long, long time until recently, was that he’s just this really, really, really, really zai person. It’s like way beyond my human abilities kind of vibes, you know? But if I was to understand him that he had his struggles. Yeah. He even got married, had a kid, he had to suffer with backache.

[00:30:11] Cheryl: You know, like if I could relate to him in that way, I think, yeah, the Buddha would’ve come way more alive, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this, that’s my take. Yeah.

[00:30:23] Jiayi: That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Wow. Imagine like your cousin. Yeah. Or like your, I don’t know, your uncle who got married. Then just left the house and then came back as the enlightened one.

[00:30:37] Jiayi: Wow. And then it’s like, you could imagine him as like your best friend. ’cause he’s the nicest person on the earth. On the world. In the world. But he’s also like a super wise person. So when you’re like, oh, struggling with work, you hate this person. Yeah. Talk to him. You’re like, oh my God, I feel so much better talking to you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:55] Soon: He just puts his hand on you and

[00:30:57] Jiayi: Oh, you’re like, oh.

[00:30:57] Soon: I’m at peace I let go now. That’s not me. There’s no I. That’s not mine.

[00:31:04] Cheryl: And occasionally he’ll say, you’re foolish person. Stop with your bull. I never say that.

[00:31:15] Cheryl: Okay. So I think, maybe to end this episode, what is your aspiration for Vesak this year? Awkward silence group.

[00:31:36] Soon: I think that’s the toughest question yet. Yeah. Still thinking.

[00:31:39] Cheryl: Okay. Mine will be very simple, so I’ll share first. I’m starting to look at all the days as the same. You know, every day is just the same in that sense that I wish that I will continue to put in the efforts and conditions to make my wholesome qualities increase and my unwholesome qualities reduce, and to keep doing that in every life until, yeah, one day I’m purified in my mind, body and speech too.

[00:32:06] Jiayi: Yeah. Nice. Okay. Actually then that reminds me, I remember last year, 31st December to first January, everyone will be celebrating. Oh, happy end of 2024. Let’s welcome a new 2025. And it’s like a big thing, right? Every year, new year is a big thing, but actually it’s also just a human construct.

[00:32:25] Cheryl: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:26] Jiayi: It’s just like how we perceive the day, but the day is actually no other different than any other day. Vesak itself could also be seen that way. It’s a human construct, but why is this human construct important? It reminds us of the qualities of why we’re practicing Buddhism, of why Buddhism is important in this world, and, to link, okay, to link back to the aspiration of Vesak this year, I guess it’s to keep going in a practice.

[00:32:59] Jiayi: We are going against our instincts, right? We are so used to holding onto our views, our likes. I love like fried chicken or whatever, but then learning to see that, oh, I really hate this person. But learning to see, okay, this is not… holding onto these things are not beneficial for me in the long run. The Buddha taught the way to really make me feel happy and contented in daily life. And with Vesak, I get reminded of that more strongly and it helps me to not give up on a practice even when times are difficult. And, to remind the purpose of what I’m doing, why I am doing things.

[00:33:46] Soon: So to me. It’s a little blend of both of yours. Vesak, it’s a new start, right? And I think it’s a new start for me to go deeper, just show up better as a human being for myself. How can I be compassionate to myself? How can I show up better for my partner? How can I show up better for my family, for my community?

[00:34:14] Soon: How can I let go more and more of my views? What should be or should not be. And also aim towards creating conditions for more wholesome encounters in my life. And when I face unwholesome encounters how can I let those go as well? So I think that that’s my aspiration for this Vesak, is kind of to keep the good fight going. Mm.

[00:34:40] Cheryl: And thank you so much. I’ve learned a lot from both of you. And it’s given my Vesak a new meaning as well. Please feel free to comment below what does Vesak mean to you? And yeah, stay tuned and see you in the next episode. Thank you, and bye bye. Bye-bye bye.

Resources

The Snake Simile where the Buddha calls someone foolish —https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.nypo.html#:~:text=6.%20%22Of%20whom,time.%22%5B3%5D

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Editor of this episode:

Aparajita Ghose

Website: aparajitayoga.com

Transcriber of this episode:

Tan Si Jing, Bernice Bay

Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan

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This is Goodbye

by Handful of Leaves | May 28, 2025 | Podcast

https://youtu.be/Wj91NtXblZg

Summary

In this heartfelt farewell episode, Kai Xin shares her personal journey of stepping away from Handful of Leaves to fully pursue her Dhamma practice. Together with Heng Xuan, they reflect on their four-year journey, from HOL’s humble beginnings during the pandemic to its growth into a vibrant Buddhist platform. They discuss the challenges of parting, the strength of their team, the community they’ve built and the vision that continues beyond her departure. It’s a candid, emotional conversation about purpose, legacy, practice and trusting in what’s to come.

About the Speakers

👤 Koh Kai Xin is a co-founder of HighSpark, a strategic communications consulting and training agency. She started her Dhamma journey at the age of 17 with Buddhist Fellowship Singapore and has been volunteering her time at various Buddhist organisations. She’s now a mentor under the SBM mentorship programme. Her perfect holiday is a long meditation retreat in the forest monasteries.

👤 Teo Heng Xuan works as a senior associate in an investment firm. He is also the co-founder of DAYWA, a community for young Buddhist working adults in Singapore & Handful Of Leaves, a popular Buddhist media platform that publishes insightful articles and a podcast series. He is also a mentor for the BFY youth group.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Kai Xin: I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves.

[00:00:03] Heng Xuan: I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like I really can’t do it.

[00:00:11] Heng Xuan: Hello. Hi. So in today’s podcast, this is where we are gonna say good goodbye.

[00:00:18] Kai Xin: So, to all our followers, I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves,

[00:00:24] Heng Xuan: and today’s video is gonna cover on why Kai Xin is leaving HOL. It’s not because she hates me, but more like (KX: for sure) her journey, forward, moving forward, out of HOL and what will HOL look like in the future? So in today’s podcast, we hope that we give you a better view of where HOL is going and the different ways that you can support us and support the growth of this growing community of Buddhist online content.

[00:00:51] Kai Xin: Yeah. So this is kind of my exit interview and he’s gonna roast me with questions. Let’s go.

[00:00:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, so for context, we are actually sitting right outside the Buddha Tooth Relic temple right now. You can see it’s reddish behind us and there’ll be people walking in and out. Just shows you how popular this temple is, but we thought this is a fitting location, given how it’s kind of like a holy place in Singapore and it’s very central. Highly encouraged you guys to visit here. The vegetarian food at B1 is super good.

[00:01:18] Kai Xin: Yeah. Let’s get rolling with the first question.

Beginnings of HOL

[00:01:26] Heng Xuan: So just a recap on how we first started HOL. You can always check out the video at the end of this video on the whole journey somewhere. But essentially it was COVID period. Wanted to kind of build a directory so that people know where to go during Vesak and on a deeper level, it was because there is no online platform to kind of like capture stories of different practitioners from our time. So just about providing practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.

Why was Kai Xin the right partner for HOL?

[00:02:03] Heng Xuan: In short, how do I know Kai Xin’s the right person? Because I’ve been working with her many, many Dhamma projects and

[00:02:08] Kai Xin: yeah.

[00:02:08] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I knew like there’s one person that could do this with me and keep my blind spots in check. That will be Kai Xin. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s why Kai Xin, long story short. Yeah.

Initial Vision for HOL

[00:02:25] Kai Xin: Oh. I remember our first conversation. It wasn’t like, okay, let’s build this together, like HOL. It was more, I think you were asking me whether I knew anyone who would be able to do something for Vesak directory. Yeah. Or like you wanna consolidate, you know, like Vesak events. And then I kind of got quite excited with ideas and then we had very deep conversation about the gaps in the buddhist scene. So from there, I think both of us had a shared vision that we really want there to be a digital presence, at least for the local community and just make Buddhism more accessible. Because usually when you are introduced to Buddhism through a Buddhist center by a friend, you have to go through all the rituals and nobody might actually tell you what you’re doing and it can be quite intimidating.

[00:03:14] Kai Xin: So I think we wanna make it easy for people to explore. And not go through like website that look completely outdated. And yeah, I think the, the vision is really practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life and making it very relatable, which is why we share stories and yeah, we are very glad that we hold true to that vision till today.

[00:03:35] Heng Xuan: Yeah. It has been four years,

[00:03:39] Kai Xin: Wow. Yes. Four years. It’s been four years.

Favourite memory of HOL

[00:03:50] Kai Xin: Well, I have no, I have no real favorite memory per se. Okay. You go first. I, I can’t.

[00:04:03] Heng Xuan: I don’t think there is like a definite, like favorite memory. But I think it was when Kai Xin shared with me that some random person is like using HOL as a material for, you know, teaching Dhamma school. Yeah, I think that, I think that for me is a favourite memory of like kind of achieving stuff together, not… less, less of working together.

[00:04:24] Heng Xuan: ‘Cause actually we work a lot, a lot online, so we don’t really have that moment of like working at a laptop and then like working late that kind of crazy stuff, but it’s actually been very much asynchronous. So for me, that’s my favorite memory. Like I can say, Hey, someone in this country using a material for like Dhamma classes.

[00:04:42] Kai Xin: It was Malaysia actually.

[00:04:43] Heng Xuan: Yeah, it was Malaysia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So to me, I think that’s memorable. It felt like for the first time, I’m not just like producing content for like my friends and family to say Good job.

[00:04:53] Kai Xin: Yeah. Right. Oh, I think I know. Not so much favorite but definitely memorable. We had our first gathering and I was really, really shocked and heartened by the faces that I’ve not seen before because being in the Buddhist scene for so long, you pretty much know everyone because we kind of just rotate, right?

[00:05:15] Kai Xin: Like we go to the center and then we go to that center when there’s good talk, a good teacher in town, and being able to see new faces and people who genuinely found us through the internet or through say their friends or friends who shared a particular link, and then they started following us to then want to show up in person to check out, you know, what we actually do and to contribute ideas so that we can continue growing.

[00:05:37] Kai Xin: I thought that was pretty amazing. And there was a comment made by one of the attendees. He said, wow, I thought I was alone. I didn’t know that there are so many young Buddhists out there and what, there’s a community? And he was genuinely quite happy.

[00:05:52] Kai Xin: So I feel that we have done an amazing job in terms of connecting people. And again, it fits through the vision, not just making it accessible, but also having that, that community to support you through this journey. I think it’s something that is completely priceless.

[00:06:09] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Why are you stepping down from HOL?

[00:06:17] Kai Xin: So I have decided last year, somewhere mid last year, that I would like to step down from HOL. It was not a difficult decision, but also not an easy one per se. Difficult for me to actually tell him. And I suppose some people would think that I have an option to juggle my practice as well as HOL, but it was quite obvious when there are times where I meditate, yeah, and it is true, I, I would start thinking about ideas, HOL. And I think there’s another part as well. I see a very big difference in the passion and the drive. In the past I might have a lot of drive to really wanna slog it out to make an idea work, to build something. And a lot of times it’s at the expense of my formal practice in terms of time to meditate.

[00:07:12] Kai Xin: But then slowly, more and more, I just feel it’s not something that I’m willing to trade for anymore. It’s possible to find that balance, but knowing my character, it’s tough to try to do both things well at the same time. And I keep thinking about how I have access to great teachers, really, really well practiced teachers. And they’re not getting younger, younger as the Dhamma way of life. Yeah, people age and I, I too age, my parents also age, so it was quite sobering for me to reflect what do I wanna do moving forward? And I figured that money can be earned back. But time, once it’s lost, health, once it’s lost, I, I can’t get it back.

[00:07:57] Kai Xin: And this seems to be the golden window opportunity for me to just go all in into practice. And to understand how the mind works, to understand how all this enlightened masters and how the Buddha did it, to realize what they have realized. I wanna give it a fair chance, a fair shot. So I think that shift in drive, shift in focus was the main thing that pushed me to say, yeah, I don’t think it’s gonna work out.

What led to your decision to deepen your practice?

[00:08:28] Kai Xin: I, I remember quite clearly I was in an apartment. So for the good part of last year, I’ve been, I rented an apartment close to a monastery in Thailand and I wanted to deepen my practice. You know, staying close to a monastery. I can have the lifestyle of going there daily to practice in the morning, and then I learn a bit of Thai in the afternoon and do some HOL work, do some of my day job work remotely.

[00:08:53] Kai Xin: It got to a point where I remember I was working. And then I’m like, actually, what, what am I doing? I, I just suddenly felt this deep sense of I’m wasting my time and it’s very difficult for me to be doing everything all at once well. Yeah, and it, it’s not that I don’t like what I do at HOL, I love what I do and I I love all of you followers.

[00:09:17] Kai Xin: Just that in terms of, in terms of wasting time, I think there’s a deeper calling in terms of– there’s a deeper calling to want to devote my youth while I’m still healthy and able to the practice. Yeah. And formal practice specifically. Yeah. And it was slightly difficult, more to a sense where I feel selfish for doing so, but then there was a clear voice in me that told me that, Hey, actually I have been contributing to the community ever since I knew Dhamma.

[00:09:51] Kai Xin: I don’t think I have any regrets. And it’s time to start taking care of myself so that perhaps in the future I would be able to contribute in other ways or maybe through my own realization, the contribution can be deeper and more meaningful. So yeah, that’s where I kind of texted him, that was in a monastery when I was having a self-retreat. It’s like, oh yeah, by the way, I had this thought. Yeah.

How did you take the news of Kai Xin’s departure?

[00:10:23] Heng Xuan: I think it came in like waves, right? So like, I think I was like, okay, I’m gonna move to Thailand. Then I was like, I okay, okay I need to get over that. I can’t keep like meeting her in person or like, whatever. Right? So then there’s the sense of like getting over the initial loss of a friend that’s like in the vicinity and loss of like someone that you can actually meet in person. So I think that I was getting over that, that, that I was like, okay, but Kai Xin’s going like, work, work even more for HOL and like, you know, ’cause she, she was like, transitioning and like moving out the Singapore way of life and stuff. And, and then the Whatsapp came and I was like, oh my God, I can’t. I was just like, oh no.

[00:11:00] Heng Xuan: Like I can’t, can’t like do this alone. ’cause I think it’s just like you have always been able to bounce ideas and then now it’s like there’s this sudden like impending loss, I guess. The ability to like kind of just call a person at my whim and fancy and just ask random questions or like just have a certain person that you can bounce ideas with. I think definitely sad, but also at a certain extent felt happy. You’re going to Nibanna faster man, I hope.

[00:11:27] Kai Xin: Yes. I need the blessings.

[00:11:28] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So it is that feeling, that bittersweet feeling, right? Like you’ll know that it’s the best thing for, for her as a practioner and as a Dhamma friend. Like that’s the best thing. But at the same time, there’s this loss that, well, this person is like super contributive to the Dhamma world, and she’s no longer gonna be like really there, like physically not there already. And then now it’s like virtually also not there. So I think like it was, it was really tough. Like I, I, I won’t shy away from it that I, I even told her like, I think, I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like, I really can’t do it. Like,

[00:12:00] Kai Xin: and I was like, no man, you know.

[00:12:03] Heng Xuan: I kind of like managed to go to Malaysia at that time. And I just like meditated in a Dhamma hall facing the Buddha and just like wondering, wow, what, what is the way forward? And then I was so like, full of emotions. First time I just like cry in front of the Buddha statue. I’m like, wah.

[00:12:19] Kai Xin: Oh, I didn’t know you cried.

[00:12:20] Heng Xuan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then my, my, my Dhamma friend like took a picture of that. But he didn’t know I was crying la. But it’s quite. But I just had to reflect on like what is best moving forward, like, and all the self-limiting beliefs that I might have, thinking that I can’t do it myself, but actually as a team and, and it’s about bringing the team forward also as well. ‘Cause HOL is more than me and Kai Xin, but really the community, the contributors that move it forward. For me, that’s, I think, quite a low point, but I think it’s like you also feel happy.

[00:12:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So a bit weird, yes.

[00:12:52] Kai Xin: Separation brings despair.

[00:12:54] Heng Xuan: Yes. Lamentation.

[00:12:57] Kai Xin: Well I didn’t, I really didn’t know. I think he needs a lot of assurance, so please comment and say in the chat.

[00:13:06] Kai Xin: So his wife is like this little bird that will come and tell me things, right? Yeah. And I kind of know that I knew that you were not taking it well. Um. But then I had to keep reiterating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it, I mean, you’re not doing this alone. We have a team and we have a very capable team, and in fact, I’m only doing this little bit. Yeah. So I think HOL would move on and will go on, to greater heights without me

[00:13:35] Heng Xuan: and us eventually.

[00:13:38] Kai Xin: Yeah. And if, if we are able to do that, that’s actually a really good sign because we are. I mean, the ability to decouple ourself from the organization and not having it rely a hundred percent fully, I think this is where legacies are built, right?

[00:13:53] Kai Xin: So I think over the years we have built a lot of SOPs. We have, you know, built a great team, brought in different type of skill sets and talent. Like the lady who is sitting behind the camera right now, You Shan, who’s leading the design and illustration team. And we have got many new initiatives and pillars and more people are joining us as volunteers as well.

[00:14:17] Kai Xin: So things are just gonna be exciting. And I always know that when a chapter closes, another would open. And really, you don’t know what would unfold from this. Yeah. So don’t limit yourself to thinking that HOL has to be with me or be with you. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:14:33] Heng Xuan: yeah.

[00:14:34] Kai Xin: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Heng Xuan: Yeah, she’s provided very good assurance.

[00:14:38] Kai Xin: So we are not shutting down if you continue to subscribe.

How is HOL adapting to this change?

[00:14:50] Kai Xin: We, we do have some, you know, handover plans and certain concrete guidelines or concrete steps in order to achieve that.

[00:14:57] Heng Xuan: I think in slowly having the incremental team coming together, and building out the different pillars of HOL is something that we long time overdue and having that in place was crucial to balance our mission and her transition out.

[00:15:10] Heng Xuan: So having amazing people joining our team, to support different ops, I think that was crucial in giving me a bit more confidence on where we are going.

[00:15:20] Kai Xin: Yeah, I think we also had a discussion about what are some fears and things that would create anxiety with me not being around and then working backwards from there. To say, okay, how can this not be a factor of fear? So I think there are a lot of different initiatives that we’re trying. And, to be honest, from an operational side of thing, there’s another vision about being financially sustainable, which we are still, honestly, quite far from it.

[00:15:50] Heng Xuan: Taking baby steps.

[00:15:51] Kai Xin: Yeah, baby steps. And we wanna also assure our followers that we would never commercialize Dhamma. We are experimenting with different ways as to how we would be able to either offer products or service or different things where you might pay in a professional sense or in a non Dhamma aspect. But if we were to add a Dhamma angle to make it more wholesome, would that work?

[00:16:16] Kai Xin: And we wanna keep our content free as usual, so that people would be able to access, and any bonus would or might have a price tag to it. So also hope to seek followers understanding when we do try out something that our promise to you is we would wanna stay true to the Dhamma, but you can feel free to call us out if you feel uncomfortable with certain things that the, the team is moving towards. And we need, I mean, HOL needs people to keep the team accountable. Yeah. Yeah.

What made you confident about your decision to leave?

[00:16:55] Kai Xin: I think there is, there are two aspects to this. The first one is that I don’t feel irresponsible that with my departure, the entire team would have to carry like the burden of this void. Then the other aspect is more, in personal capacity. So in terms of HOL, I’ve been seeing team members contributing amazing work and there are times where I can go on retreat where I don’t have to be contacted at all.

[00:17:23] Kai Xin: And things are just, you know, going as per usual, that brought a lot of confidence to say that hey, actually, with, without my presence, the operations would still continue. And it might not… I mean, HOL might not necessarily accelerate in terms of its growth, but at least it can continue to stay business as usual and still continue to benefit people from what it has already been doing well.

[00:17:50] Kai Xin: From a personal front, I think there are a couple of things. So, first is definitely my progress in terms of the practice. I, I feel confident, a little bit more in myself that, yeah, this is the path that I, I foresee myself, taking. And I, I don’t think I wanna back out from it. The second part is, of course, financially there needs to be some practical calculations.

[00:18:17] Kai Xin: Not to say that I’m like super rich, but enough for me to sustain a lifestyle, to focus on practice fully. Why that cough? I found a community in Thailand. And I feel very, very supported and everyone is very encouraging. I feel very inspired by their practice as well with good teachers. So it checked many boxes and the big question is just like, why wait? Like what am I waiting for? Yeah.

Are you REALLY gone?

[00:18:53] Kai Xin: So I’ve discussed with Heng Xuan that me stepping down would mean that I would no longer be involved in the operation side of things, and this means no meetings with them, no discussing, brainstorming, strategizing the future for HOL, no building stuff at all. So I would be completely hands off here, and the team has requested that I, once in a while, if there is a need for a sounding board to be contactable via call. I’ve, yeah, I, I’ve agreed, yeah, to that. In terms of frequency, hopefully not every other day.

[00:19:33] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s kind of like a stop-gap measure, right? So if, let’s say, the team gets too crazy, like, let’s say, selling soft toys, then I think then we all like consult Kai Xin and then she’ll like, get your head screwed on.

[00:19:46] Kai Xin: Yeah. I mean, it’s not a terrible idea to sell soft toys.

[00:19:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:50] Kai Xin: But if anything that goes against the Dhamma, I’ll be, yeah, I’ll be the first to be very vocal about it.

[00:19:55] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So I think it’s just having that, keeping the lines open and agreeing, like keeping that sense of balance in check. ’cause sometimes it… we can be too stuck in the funnel and just keep tunnel visioning into something that may not align to our vision.

[00:20:08] Kai Xin: Yeah. Yeah. So you won’t see me at meetups anymore. I’m sorry.

[00:20:12] Heng Xuan: Sawadikap.

What would you miss most?

[00:20:21] Heng Xuan: Good riddance. No lah.

[00:20:23] Kai Xin: I don’t know. I, I think I’ve gotten to a stage where I try not to miss anything because there’s this, there’s this sense of attachment, right? When you miss something, when you miss something. But innately I get very excited building things. I, I like to build, I like to experiment. And of course, not experimenting alone, but bouncing it off with the team and then being able to, you know, see it from an idea to something tangible, to then getting feedback, positive feedback from the users.

[00:20:57] Kai Xin: If I have to choose something that would be something I miss. But yeah, it’s something that I have to let go as well because it strokes your ego where you receive praise and you receive the kind of validation that, hey, you know, this thing is working. Yeah. So letting go of that.

[00:21:13] Heng Xuan: Things that I’ll miss working directly with Kai Xin, I think would be the times where she says, I have a different way of looking at this, and that usually is Kai Xin’s way of saying, I disagree. Yeah. Yeah. I think having, having that, that person that openly disagrees with you is something I’ll miss. Second is I know I cannot build, in terms of technical skills, build as well as she does.

[00:21:36] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s something I’ll miss, like having that someone that you know will partner you to build something that’s pretty much crazy but possible. Like we, we build a t-shirt business out of nowhere.

[00:21:48] Kai Xin: Not, not part of HOL,

[00:21:49] Heng Xuan: not part of HOL

[00:21:49] Kai Xin: just in case you’re wondering, we’re selling T-shirts.

[00:21:52] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So we had our own like t-shirt brand and we built out nothing. So I think like we did many random things together and I think that’s something I’ll miss, that, that, that sense of like spontaneity, that allows you to, just grow into whatever challenges that you see and you just grab and you just build, you solve it, and you just keep moving on. So I think it’s something I’ll miss. Like, not having the sounding board and not having that, that Bob the builder right next to me. Yeah.

What do you think has been the impact of your partnership?

[00:22:25] Kai Xin: I don’t know. You tell us in the comments.

[00:22:28] Heng Xuan: I think one of it is like beyond HOL is, is serving the Buddhist community, building youth groups at the same time also trying to bring Buddhist organizations more digital first. I think these are like different projects that we have done together, but I think on a deeper level is giving people the opportunity to learn the Dhamma and seeing practitioners like sprout out nowhere, through the different efforts that we have, I think that’s something like money cannot buy.

[00:22:54] Heng Xuan: Like I would imagine ourselves 10 years back the community that we had, to today, the number of people practicing the Dhamma, understanding what’s meditation retreats. I think that’s something that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, immeasurable.

[00:23:07] Kai Xin: This is recency effect because just not too long ago there, there was a Dhamma brother who reached out and asked who, you know, put this together and whether they could ask for some inputs as to how we put together HOL and some lessons that we have learned. Then we realized that the questions actually came from a very reputable venerable in Malaysia.

[00:23:31] Heng Xuan: Senior. Yeah. Very senior venerable.

[00:23:33] Kai Xin: Yeah. Who is also trying to build young Buddhist community. I think that’s a very big gap in this area. So having signs like this that people look up to HOL or use us as a benchmark, even though, to be honest, we are not like the best or the most perfect, but at least there are some learning points that they can draw from in order to benefit their community.

[00:23:55] Kai Xin: I think that is something that is pretty amazing. And just showing what, showing, just showing people what is possible. I think for too often, too long, over the years before HOL, there were a lot of talks on ideas. We always go for these forums, this symposium to brainstorm on the next ideas and I think one thing I’m really appreciative is actually, like Heng Xuan being a very reliable partner because like for us it is like, okay, let’s not just talk. Let’s do it. And it’s very difficult to find people who is willing to put in the, the effort to actually make it work and not just, you know, say only.

[00:24:32] Kai Xin: So I hope that through our journey we have shown people that this is possible and kind of encourage them to get started. Don’t think so much, just just do and just keep it reiterating. Yeah. And just keep experimenting and see what’s there.

[00:24:47] Heng Xuan: Just fail fast. Learn fast. Yeah. And, and just have your vision in mind. But, I think oftentimes people both keep looking at me and Kai Xin’s impact right. But, it’s also important to reflect that we are also dependent on like many different generations of teachers that the teachings pass through to reach us today. So don’t just look at us like, wow. Very big and stuff like that.

[00:25:10] Heng Xuan: I, I think, important to know that we are literally just the moon and the moon reflects the light of the sun. That’s what Ajahn Jayasaro says. And the sun is the Buddha. So yeah. Always remember that.

[00:25:21] Kai Xin: Yeah. And that whatever we do, there’s a ripple effect. In fact, like for me, if there isn’t website, like Access to Insight by Venerable Thanissaro, where I can easily access sutta, discourses of the Buddha, I wouldn’t be able to deepen my Dhamma understanding and knowledge. So whatever we have today actually sits on previous generation of work, be it whether it’s online or offline. So yeah, just keep sharing, provided that you have tested it for yourself and you know that what you’re sharing, it’s, you know, aligned with the Dhamma. Just keep practicing doing good work.

What excites you most about this new chapter?

[00:26:05] Kai Xin: I am not really excited about anything, nor am I really looking forward. I think I’m just taking things one step at a time, and as it comes, life will be pretty boring ’cause I’ll be doing the same routine every day. I suppose I would just keep putting in the effort and, maybe what excites me is to be closer to the Buddha in a sense where I get to practice what he teach.

[00:26:28] Kai Xin: And I think that’s the closest distance you can get to him. Right? Yeah. And by putting my best effort to realize the teachings. Recently we did an interview with Ryan, who, our, our friend, Dhamma friend Ryan, who is now a monk. And when I asked him how he felt. I think it encapsulate how I feel as well and the word is “relief”.

[00:26:51] Kai Xin: And he explained because this is something that he is been wanting to do for such a long time, and he finally is able to put things down and don on the robes. I, I’m, I’m not gonna don on the robes, just a disclaimer. But I, yeah, I, I think instead of excitement, it’s just this sense of relief to say like, oh, it’s finally here.

[00:27:08] Kai Xin: Because for such a long time, even when I first started working, people ask me how’s work? And the answer would always be, it’s great. But then there’s this lingering thing that I, I’m not sure what it is, but something just feels off from the center point, like from the true North and yeah. Now things just feel in place like it’s aligned finally. So it’s not boring.

You Shan: What’s the boring routine?

[00:27:33] Kai Xin: Boring routine. So you would pretty much wake up 4:00 AM in the day, monks wake up at 3:00 AM. 5:00 AM chanting. And then you help out with chores, sweep the leaves, clean the tables, and then there will be almsround You can help out with that as well. There’ll be more chanting in the morning at about eight o’clock.

[00:27:54] Kai Xin: Have your main meal. We only eat once a, once a day. One main meal a day. You have pretty much the whole day to yourself until 3:00 PM chores again. And then in a monastery that I’m in, 7:15 PM it is another evening chanting session. Yeah. And every day it’s just the same. There might be projects in between

[00:28:15] Heng Xuan: and festivals.

[00:28:16] Kai Xin: Festivals, yeah. Which, when the monastery can get really busy, we’ll have to do with cleaning and yeah. Like planning, organizing. Yeah. I guess the only difference is if you’ll meet different people maybe on a daily basis, because people come and go, our visitors and retreatants. Yeah.

[00:28:32] Heng Xuan: So I think what excites me most is the expanding reach that HOL is having and having more people on board. Contributors that join the team would ensure that we bring even more human capital into the Buddhist world. And where I’m excited at one of the different ideas is to upskill the Buddhist community to get even better at doing what they do.

[00:28:52] Heng Xuan: And I believe that HOL will be well positioned to help that. Other areas would include exploring new formats to reach people. And already we do see many different people coming to Dhamma through different articles, through different videos and podcasts. So for me, I think that remains a really exciting area for us to keep experimenting because the moment you stop experimenting then it’s like you’re not trying.

[00:29:16] Heng Xuan: So it’s, I’m looking forward to more failures, kind of. Yeah. And, and just keep learning, like we said, no to merchandise, but like maybe that’s gonna come out for us. So for me, that’s what excites, is to never say never and just keep exploring where things go and meeting super cool people, like that are joining our team. I don’t shout out individually, but like yeah. You know who you are. Yeah. You all know who you are and really talented in what you do.

How will your friendship evolve?

[00:29:40] Kai Xin: We’ll still be friends. I’ll still be kind of contactable, just not as accessible for me, I think it’s a big question mark because it’s never the same or never gonna be the same as compared to you being able to meet up, you know, chat over meal and bounce off ideas.

[00:30:06] Heng Xuan: I think I have to meet her in Thailand, so I have to go Thailand. I think it’s just, I mean your friendships on maintenance mode, just like when I go Thailand then I’ll see her. And somehow I just keep going to Thailand. I dunno why, but yeah.

Words of wisdom for the team and future contributors?

[00:30:23] Kai Xin: What advice? What wisdom? Wisdom. Oh wow. Wisdom. Even worse, I don’t have any innate wisdom, so I have to lean to the Buddhist words. I think one thing that never fails so far based on my own experience is to use the three poison as yard sticks. It gets a little tricky when we wanna embark on a new initiative because you might not know whether it is fulfilling your alter ego.

[00:30:51] Kai Xin: Is it serving the community? It could be, but there can also be a very fine line or a trace of unwholesome. Because I think financial sustainability is always very tricky, and that’s like a hurdle that we are trying to cross as HOL collectively. So greed, hatred and delusion. These are the three poisons.

[00:31:09] Kai Xin: If we can, the team can kind of check against this to see what is the level of greed, hatred, and delusion. Delusion is hard to to check, so have someone keep the team accountable. I think pretty much the team will do. Okay. Yeah. ’cause the last thing that personally I would want for any Buddhist organization is to go off path when we might start off with a very wholesome intention, with a wholesome vision, but, you know, we get blinded by all of this, blinded by our own defilements. So yeah, have that as the yardstick. I think that would be the safest bet. Not, not really a bet, but a safest route. So words of the Buddha.

Final words to each other

[00:31:58] Heng Xuan: It is kind of sort of the end, but not the end of a journey that we have been embarking since we were 17.

[00:32:06] Kai Xin: Wow. Yeah, wow.

[00:32:07] Heng Xuan: Like it has been, yeah, it has been a good like 15 years working together and things are gonna change. It’s going to, it’s just gonna be different. We’re not gonna build stuff together anymore.

[00:32:17] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s really different, but I just wanna thank you for all the random shit that we have done together, like for the past 15 years, which is like almost half of our life, like almost half our lifetimes. Right. Just doing projects together. So, yeah, I just wanna say I could think of no better person than to build this entire ecosystem with together. So thank you.

[00:32:36] Kai Xin: I’m getting emotional. How can I hug you? Aw, you know, the first episode of podcast I cried too, because Cheryl made me cry. Yeah, I mean, I’m very appreciative. Yeah, I, I don’t know. I always feel like there’s a lot that you can do as a person and like for to you individually, apart from all the thanks, is, is really, you don’t necessarily have to take everything on your shoulder by yourself.

[00:33:10] Kai Xin: I think sometimes it seems scary because it can feel like you’re walking alone. Mm-hmm. But you have people around to support and even though you’re great at doing a lot of things, often better than others, sometimes it’s okay to lean on others even though they might not necessary, be it the a hundred percent, you know, level.

[00:33:31] Kai Xin: Yeah. ’cause when you have a community, you have many, maybe like 75% of people, and that way surpass a hundred percent in the, as an individual. So don’t be too hard on yourself and you don’t always have to be productive. It’s okay to sometimes, you know, go on a break. Yeah. And not think about HOL. Give yourself permission that, give yourself permission to do that.

[00:33:54] Kai Xin: And yeah, don’t always have to, yeah, do things for others. I know you do a lot of things for yourself, but, at the back of your head you’re like, Hey, how can I milk this? Yes. For HOL, for DAYWA, for whatever, you know, initiative and just, you know, productivity kind of guy, but it’s okay to not be productive sometimes. Yeah. And just let your mind rest. Aw. Are you crying?

[00:34:23] Kai Xin: But I am really thankful. So I kind of feel like we have been doing, we’ve been like been doing this, contributing to Dhamma for like multiple lifetimes. Yeah. So for me,

[00:34:35] Heng Xuan: see you for seven more lifetimes.

[00:34:37] Kai Xin: Yeah. This is not really goodbye. You’ll still see me, come to Thailand. Give you an excuse, a reason to come to Thailand for retreat. Yeah.

[00:34:52] Kai Xin: Like, subscribe, support.

[00:34:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really it, like contribute our efforts and contribute our skills. Okay. Take that again. So, like, subscribe and share this video. But jokes aside, I think contribute your skills. If you feel like there’s something that you always wanted to try, experiment, just try out.

[00:35:16] Heng Xuan: Just reach out to us and share with us, like, why do you think this is a fit for HOL? We’ll work something out. I think we are always looking for people with the skill sets and expertise to bring things forward. Oftentimes we put a hundred percent of our work life energy right into just our careers. But why not put a bit of that percentage of that innovation, that knowledge into serving the Dhamma? And I think that will bring immense benefits.

[00:35:40] Kai Xin: And as you talk about financial sustainability, we, the team is, is really bootstrapping. We’ve just recently hired or experimented with hiring a full-time content editor, not so sure about how this experiment goes, but if we have the capital we can, or the team has more room to play around with ideas and to execute on certain things. So if you have been benefiting so far, it would really, really benefit not just the team, but the entire community, because the team is not doing this for the team’s sake.

[00:36:12] Kai Xin: We are doing this for everyone’s sake. So yeah, go to the Patreon or sponsorship page to see which one kind of appeals to you? Mm. I think beyond supporting through monetary means, of course, it, it’s really supporting through your practice, by being a good practitioner. It really has an immense effect to the people around you.

[00:36:35] Kai Xin: People will start feeling like, Hey, something is different about this. Like, oh, I read HOL article, oh, because of HOL you know, I go for this retreat and stuff. So work on yourself. Yeah. And that’s like the best marketing and publicity one can do for Buddhism. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:48] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I always say don’t be the proverbial like auntie who says they do the Metta chanting then after that hit and kill the mosquito. Don’t, don’t be that person. Right. Just go and practice. Be a impact. Fly the flag of the Buddha way, way, way high. And I think that would be crazy, crazy good to this world.

[00:37:07] Kai Xin: Yeah. And for yourself too, in case you don’t make it this lifetime, next lifetime dhamma will still be around.

[00:37:11] Heng Xuan: We hope that you enjoy this series on exploring why Kai Xin is saying goodbye.

[00:37:16] Kai Xin: Yeah. And

[00:37:17] Heng Xuan: we will see you soon.

[00:37:19] Kai Xin: All the best to everybody. May you stay happy and and wise.

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Editor and Transcriber of this episode:

Tan Si Jing, Ang You Shan, Bernice Bay

Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan

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Breakups, Buddhism, and me: A sharing of unexpected healing

by Yi Khoon Lim | Oct 18, 2024 | Emotional-mastery, Love and marriage, Read, Relationships, Wellbeing

TLDR: This article is a continuation of my previous article about falling into depression. Here I describe the phase of recovering from depression and along the way learning Dhamma backwards, from experience to theory.

Note to readers: this article only reflects my personal journey through mental illness. Please seek professional medical advice if you are feeling unwell. You may read part I here.

The training

Thinking about my loved ones, I decided to try and solve this depressive state I am in. If I am already ready to end everything, what else can I lose right?

The first thing I turned to.. was YouTube.

I was searching for ways to overcome sadness or how to overcome a broken relationship.

The search on YouTube returned two sources of information: meditation guidance by Mingyur Rinpoche and Q&A sessions by an Indian Mystic to Indian university students.

The training begins.

The noble truth of suffering

Sickness is suffering
Not getting what you want is suffering
Being separated from what you want is suffering.

These three phrases summed up what I was going through during my depression. I did not want to have a negative mind so I constantly fought the sick mind which was full of negative thoughts and feelings.

Constantly replaying memories of my past broken relationship, I relished in the past. After the memories stopped playing, I came back to reality, realizing that I would never get back to the relationship. Not getting what I wanted, I suffered.

Origin of suffering is craving

I can never get back the familiar relationship that I want. But I want a sense of familiarity.
I can never be with the person that I was familiar with. But I want the comfort of being with the person.
I am drowning in negative thoughts and feelings. I don’t want pain!

These thoughts of wanting and not getting it replayed in my head. So much dukkha.

To try and overcome the depression, I followed Mingyur Rinpoche’s meditation technique to visualize my thoughts and feelings like clouds in my mind. Whenever you see thoughts and feelings arise, treat them like clouds and see them fade away.

Easier said than done.

For the first year of meditation to overcome depression, I never meditated for more than 15 minutes. Sitting down in meditation and watching my mind, negative feelings and thoughts swamped me within seconds and minutes. I got tired from the activities of the mind so I fell asleep tired.

A side note, it was after reading MN10 Satipaṭṭhānasutta that I realized that I should have started meditation from the body first instead of feelings. But I wouldn’t have known it back then.

All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner;
they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
If one speaks or acts with an evil mind,
‘dukkha‘ follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart.
– Dhammapada 1

The mind will drift in the direction you guide it towards. In the initial stages where I still had not accepted the broken relationship, I saw the negative thoughts and feelings, and I followed them and relished in them, to replay the memories of the past.

Cessation of craving leads to the cessation of suffering

What helped me to get over the negative thoughts and feelings of a break-up? Acknowledging that the relationship was over and it was time to move on helped. I set the intention to see my negative thoughts and feelings and acknowledge them, instead of fighting them (not wanting the thoughts and feelings) or chasing them (wanting and relishing in the thoughts)

“You are not your body, you are not your mind”
“Once you put some distance between yourself and your body and mind, that’s the end of suffering”
“If you are in the river, you cannot see the river. If you are outside the river, you can see the river.”

These phases gave me progress in meditation through depression.

I stopped the strong craving for the negative thoughts and feelings to go away. I stopped fighting the thoughts and feelings. I put some distance between me, the observer, and the thoughts and feelings (the grasping aggregates).

I was like a person in a cinema watching the memories and feelings play out in the mental cinema of my mind.

The meditation got easier and slowly, I became the observer of the raging thoughts and emotions. I saw the thoughts and emotions arise and I saw them slowly fading away.

Honey-Cake sutta

To give a little more flavour of my journey through mental illness, I’ll use the Honey-Cake sutta.

Sense organs (e.g. eyes) + sense consciousness (a functioning eye) + Phenomenon (Sights from the surrounding). The meeting of the three, is contact.
Contact is a condition for feelings.

What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. – MN 18 The Honey-Cake

What do all these mean?

After my breakup, whenever I saw couples, the sight of them triggered all the memories in my mind. My mind started to feel all the past feelings and memories came flooding out. Holding onto the feelings and memories, I craved for the past. All these actions happened in just a split second.

When I became more mindful, I saw that I was seeing, I was aware that I was seeing. So when I saw couples, I was mindful that thoughts and feelings arose. Then I watched the thoughts and feelings play out in my mind. Not getting carried away by the mental drama of thoughts and feelings, I saw the mental drama slowly fade away.

Beyond the flood

After meditating for four years, I can see my own aggregates objectively. Whenever the aggregates get triggered by contact with the inner world (thinking about the past) or the outside world (when I see couples), I can see the aggregates at some distance and not get carried away.

The thoughts and feelings of the breakup are still there. But the aversion to the thought and feelings became much much weaker. Negative thoughts and feelings became just thoughts and feelings. There is no need to label the aggregates as good or bad. Aggregates are just phenomena that arise and if you watch them with some distance, not getting carried away, they fade away.

nibbida — disenchantment;

viraga — dispassion;

nirodha — cessation;

vimutti — Liberation

Reference: Upanisasutta – SN12.23

Once you stop getting enchanted/attracted (nibbida) by your aggregates (negative thoughts and feelings in this case), you develop viraga (dispassion). Eventually, you get tired of engaging with the negative thoughts and feelings, then it becomes nirodha (cessation). Finally, vimutti, freedom from the grasp of the negative mind states.

What about learning Dhamma backwards?

Throughout the article, I have thrown in Dhamma concepts and Pali words. But throughout the four years when I was meditating to overcome depression, I never learned any Dhamma concepts.

I never knew about the noble truths, five grasping aggregates, six sense bases etc.

It was only after four years of meditation that my mental conditioning became stable. I went to search for answers about the journey I had been through.

This meant, to me, that Dhamma is the reality around us. Dhamma is not just theory in a book to me because I experienced the Dhamma. With the practice of meditation, there is a gradual development of dispassion towards those raging emotions and grasping aggregates.

I learnt through experiencing the Dhamma before searching for theoretical knowledge in the suttas.

Resources I found

My search to relate my experience to Dhamma concepts took me to Buddhist Fellowship and DAYWA. Through Buddhist Fellowship, I attended the Dhamma Foundation Course (DFC) conducted by Sister Sylvia Bay and Brother Ong Chye Chye.

The detailed and lively lessons of Sis Sylvia and Bro Chye gave me the Dhamma roadmap to link what I experienced to the Dhamma taught by the Buddha. Lessons included discussions and meditation sessions for participants to understand and experience the Dhamma concepts and bring the concepts to life.

DAYWA, aka Dhamma Assembly for Young Working Adults, is a group of young Buddhist practitioners. It is through DAYWA that I found like-minded friends who are committed to the practice and discuss our journey together. Through the events and discussions, I learned more about the Dhamma and grew in my Dhamma journey.

Disclaimer: To highlight any conflict of interest, I volunteer at both Buddhist Fellowship and DAYWA at the time of writing this article. But to see if I am biased or not, it is for the wise to visit these organizations and see it for themselves 🙂

Concluding points

My intention in sharing my journey is to give my version of going through a mental illness. Everyone’s situation of suffering (dukkha) might be a little different, ranging from minor dissatisfaction to severe depression.

Being aware of the suffering is the first step and having the intention to take steps to overcome the suffering to bring you more peace is a wholesome act that deserves praise.

The journey to reduce our suffering is a long one. But the Dhamma is a gradual training path and every effort we make can bring us to more peace and joy. Meeting the Dhamma and gaining even one minute of peace from the flood of your mind is like finding an oasis in the vast desert.

Sabbe Satta Sukhita Hontu. May all beings be happy.

Mental health resources for those in need:

SOS 24-hour Hotline: 1-767
Shan You Counselling: 6741 9293
Buddhist Free Clinic: 6841 3370
Singapore Association for Mental Health: 1800-283-7019
Institute of Mental Health: 6389-2222 (24 hours)
Thye Hua Kwan Moral Charities: 6337 1201

Wise steps

Acknowledge your grasping aggregates (body, feelings, thoughts, perceptions and consciousness).
Learn to see your aggregates in a neutral manner. Not satisfying your aggregates and not fighting your aggregates
In the Dhamma journey, learn moderation to reduce craving.

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Growing Up Gay in a Conservative Society

Encountering Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda

Turning to The Historical Buddha

Embracing Who You Are Now Without Harming Yourself Or Others

Returning to the Heart of the Path

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Self-kindness is foundational

Meditation builds inner strength

The Dhamma offers practical tools

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From Ritual to Meaningful Practice

Vesak as a Celebration of Giving, Not Taking

The Best Offering Is Practice

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Summary

About the Speakers

Transcript

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Editor and Transcriber of this episode:

Visual and Sound Effects

Get connected here:

The training

The noble truth of suffering

Origin of suffering is craving

Cessation of craving leads to the cessation of suffering

Honey-Cake sutta

Beyond the flood

What about learning Dhamma backwards?

Resources I found

Concluding points

Mental health resources for those in need:

Wise steps

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