This is Goodbye

This is Goodbye

https://youtu.be/Wj91NtXblZg


Summary

In this heartfelt farewell episode, Kai Xin shares her personal journey of stepping away from Handful of Leaves to fully pursue her Dhamma practice. Together with Heng Xuan, they reflect on their four-year journey, from HOL’s humble beginnings during the pandemic to its growth into a vibrant Buddhist platform. They discuss the challenges of parting, the strength of their team, the community they’ve built and the vision that continues beyond her departure. It’s a candid, emotional conversation about purpose, legacy, practice and trusting in what’s to come.


About the Speakers

👤 Koh Kai Xin is a co-founder of HighSpark, a strategic communications consulting and training agency. She started her Dhamma journey at the age of 17 with Buddhist Fellowship Singapore and has been volunteering her time at various Buddhist organisations. She’s now a mentor under the SBM mentorship programme. Her perfect holiday is a long meditation retreat in the forest monasteries.

👤 Teo Heng Xuan works as a senior associate in an investment firm. He is also the co-founder of DAYWA, a community for young Buddhist working adults in Singapore & Handful Of Leaves, a popular Buddhist media platform that publishes insightful articles and a podcast series. He is also a mentor for the BFY youth group.


Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Kai Xin: I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves.

[00:00:03] Heng Xuan: I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like I really can’t do it.

[00:00:11] Heng Xuan: Hello. Hi. So in today’s podcast, this is where we are gonna say good goodbye.

[00:00:18] Kai Xin: So, to all our followers, I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves,

[00:00:24] Heng Xuan: and today’s video is gonna cover on why Kai Xin is leaving HOL. It’s not because she hates me, but more like (KX: for sure) her journey, forward, moving forward, out of HOL and what will HOL look like in the future? So in today’s podcast, we hope that we give you a better view of where HOL is going and the different ways that you can support us and support the growth of this growing community of Buddhist online content.

[00:00:51] Kai Xin: Yeah. So this is kind of my exit interview and he’s gonna roast me with questions. Let’s go.

[00:00:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, so for context, we are actually sitting right outside the Buddha Tooth Relic temple right now. You can see it’s reddish behind us and there’ll be people walking in and out. Just shows you how popular this temple is, but we thought this is a fitting location, given how it’s kind of like a holy place in Singapore and it’s very central. Highly encouraged you guys to visit here. The vegetarian food at B1 is super good.

[00:01:18] Kai Xin: Yeah. Let’s get rolling with the first question.

Beginnings of HOL

[00:01:26] Heng Xuan: So just a recap on how we first started HOL. You can always check out the video at the end of this video on the whole journey somewhere. But essentially it was COVID period. Wanted to kind of build a directory so that people know where to go during Vesak and on a deeper level, it was because there is no online platform to kind of like capture stories of different practitioners from our time. So just about providing practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.

Why was Kai Xin the right partner for HOL?

[00:02:03] Heng Xuan: In short, how do I know Kai Xin’s the right person? Because I’ve been working with her many, many Dhamma projects and

[00:02:08] Kai Xin: yeah.

[00:02:08] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I knew like there’s one person that could do this with me and keep my blind spots in check. That will be Kai Xin. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s why Kai Xin, long story short. Yeah.

Initial Vision for HOL

[00:02:25] Kai Xin: Oh. I remember our first conversation. It wasn’t like, okay, let’s build this together, like HOL. It was more, I think you were asking me whether I knew anyone who would be able to do something for Vesak directory. Yeah. Or like you wanna consolidate, you know, like Vesak events. And then I kind of got quite excited with ideas and then we had very deep conversation about the gaps in the buddhist scene. So from there, I think both of us had a shared vision that we really want there to be a digital presence, at least for the local community and just make Buddhism more accessible. Because usually when you are introduced to Buddhism through a Buddhist center by a friend, you have to go through all the rituals and nobody might actually tell you what you’re doing and it can be quite intimidating.

[00:03:14] Kai Xin: So I think we wanna make it easy for people to explore. And not go through like website that look completely outdated. And yeah, I think the, the vision is really practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life and making it very relatable, which is why we share stories and yeah, we are very glad that we hold true to that vision till today.

[00:03:35] Heng Xuan: Yeah. It has been four years,

[00:03:39] Kai Xin: Wow. Yes. Four years. It’s been four years.

Favourite memory of HOL

[00:03:50] Kai Xin: Well, I have no, I have no real favorite memory per se. Okay. You go first. I, I can’t.

[00:04:03] Heng Xuan: I don’t think there is like a definite, like favorite memory. But I think it was when Kai Xin shared with me that some random person is like using HOL as a material for, you know, teaching Dhamma school. Yeah, I think that, I think that for me is a favourite memory of like kind of achieving stuff together, not… less, less of working together.

[00:04:24] Heng Xuan: ‘Cause actually we work a lot, a lot online, so we don’t really have that moment of like working at a laptop and then like working late that kind of crazy stuff, but it’s actually been very much asynchronous. So for me, that’s my favorite memory. Like I can say, Hey, someone in this country using a material for like Dhamma classes.

[00:04:42] Kai Xin: It was Malaysia actually.

[00:04:43] Heng Xuan: Yeah, it was Malaysia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So to me, I think that’s memorable. It felt like for the first time, I’m not just like producing content for like my friends and family to say Good job.

[00:04:53] Kai Xin: Yeah. Right. Oh, I think I know. Not so much favorite but definitely memorable. We had our first gathering and I was really, really shocked and heartened by the faces that I’ve not seen before because being in the Buddhist scene for so long, you pretty much know everyone because we kind of just rotate, right?

[00:05:15] Kai Xin: Like we go to the center and then we go to that center when there’s good talk, a good teacher in town, and being able to see new faces and people who genuinely found us through the internet or through say their friends or friends who shared a particular link, and then they started following us to then want to show up in person to check out, you know, what we actually do and to contribute ideas so that we can continue growing.

[00:05:37] Kai Xin: I thought that was pretty amazing. And there was a comment made by one of the attendees. He said, wow, I thought I was alone. I didn’t know that there are so many young Buddhists out there and what, there’s a community? And he was genuinely quite happy.

[00:05:52] Kai Xin: So I feel that we have done an amazing job in terms of connecting people. And again, it fits through the vision, not just making it accessible, but also having that, that community to support you through this journey. I think it’s something that is completely priceless.

[00:06:09] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Why are you stepping down from HOL?

[00:06:17] Kai Xin: So I have decided last year, somewhere mid last year, that I would like to step down from HOL. It was not a difficult decision, but also not an easy one per se. Difficult for me to actually tell him. And I suppose some people would think that I have an option to juggle my practice as well as HOL, but it was quite obvious when there are times where I meditate, yeah, and it is true, I, I would start thinking about ideas, HOL. And I think there’s another part as well. I see a very big difference in the passion and the drive. In the past I might have a lot of drive to really wanna slog it out to make an idea work, to build something. And a lot of times it’s at the expense of my formal practice in terms of time to meditate.

[00:07:12] Kai Xin: But then slowly, more and more, I just feel it’s not something that I’m willing to trade for anymore. It’s possible to find that balance, but knowing my character, it’s tough to try to do both things well at the same time. And I keep thinking about how I have access to great teachers, really, really well practiced teachers. And they’re not getting younger, younger as the Dhamma way of life. Yeah, people age and I, I too age, my parents also age, so it was quite sobering for me to reflect what do I wanna do moving forward? And I figured that money can be earned back. But time, once it’s lost, health, once it’s lost, I, I can’t get it back.

[00:07:57] Kai Xin: And this seems to be the golden window opportunity for me to just go all in into practice. And to understand how the mind works, to understand how all this enlightened masters and how the Buddha did it, to realize what they have realized. I wanna give it a fair chance, a fair shot. So I think that shift in drive, shift in focus was the main thing that pushed me to say, yeah, I don’t think it’s gonna work out.

What led to your decision to deepen your practice?

[00:08:28] Kai Xin: I, I remember quite clearly I was in an apartment. So for the good part of last year, I’ve been, I rented an apartment close to a monastery in Thailand and I wanted to deepen my practice. You know, staying close to a monastery. I can have the lifestyle of going there daily to practice in the morning, and then I learn a bit of Thai in the afternoon and do some HOL work, do some of my day job work remotely.

[00:08:53] Kai Xin: It got to a point where I remember I was working. And then I’m like, actually, what, what am I doing? I, I just suddenly felt this deep sense of I’m wasting my time and it’s very difficult for me to be doing everything all at once well. Yeah, and it, it’s not that I don’t like what I do at HOL, I love what I do and I I love all of you followers.

[00:09:17] Kai Xin: Just that in terms of, in terms of wasting time, I think there’s a deeper calling in terms of– there’s a deeper calling to want to devote my youth while I’m still healthy and able to the practice. Yeah. And formal practice specifically. Yeah. And it was slightly difficult, more to a sense where I feel selfish for doing so, but then there was a clear voice in me that told me that, Hey, actually I have been contributing to the community ever since I knew Dhamma.

[00:09:51] Kai Xin: I don’t think I have any regrets. And it’s time to start taking care of myself so that perhaps in the future I would be able to contribute in other ways or maybe through my own realization, the contribution can be deeper and more meaningful. So yeah, that’s where I kind of texted him, that was in a monastery when I was having a self-retreat. It’s like, oh yeah, by the way, I had this thought. Yeah.

How did you take the news of Kai Xin’s departure?

[00:10:23] Heng Xuan: I think it came in like waves, right? So like, I think I was like, okay, I’m gonna move to Thailand. Then I was like, I okay, okay I need to get over that. I can’t keep like meeting her in person or like, whatever. Right? So then there’s the sense of like getting over the initial loss of a friend that’s like in the vicinity and loss of like someone that you can actually meet in person. So I think that I was getting over that, that, that I was like, okay, but Kai Xin’s going like, work, work even more for HOL and like, you know, ’cause she, she was like, transitioning and like moving out the Singapore way of life and stuff. And, and then the Whatsapp came and I was like, oh my God, I can’t. I was just like, oh no.

[00:11:00] Heng Xuan: Like I can’t, can’t like do this alone. ’cause I think it’s just like you have always been able to bounce ideas and then now it’s like there’s this sudden like impending loss, I guess. The ability to like kind of just call a person at my whim and fancy and just ask random questions or like just have a certain person that you can bounce ideas with. I think definitely sad, but also at a certain extent felt happy. You’re going to Nibanna faster man, I hope.

[00:11:27] Kai Xin: Yes. I need the blessings.

[00:11:28] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So it is that feeling, that bittersweet feeling, right? Like you’ll know that it’s the best thing for, for her as a practioner and as a Dhamma friend. Like that’s the best thing. But at the same time, there’s this loss that, well, this person is like super contributive to the Dhamma world, and she’s no longer gonna be like really there, like physically not there already. And then now it’s like virtually also not there. So I think like it was, it was really tough. Like I, I, I won’t shy away from it that I, I even told her like, I think, I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like, I really can’t do it. Like,

[00:12:00] Kai Xin: and I was like, no man, you know.

[00:12:03] Heng Xuan: I kind of like managed to go to Malaysia at that time. And I just like meditated in a Dhamma hall facing the Buddha and just like wondering, wow, what, what is the way forward? And then I was so like, full of emotions. First time I just like cry in front of the Buddha statue. I’m like, wah.

[00:12:19] Kai Xin: Oh, I didn’t know you cried.

[00:12:20] Heng Xuan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then my, my, my Dhamma friend like took a picture of that. But he didn’t know I was crying la. But it’s quite. But I just had to reflect on like what is best moving forward, like, and all the self-limiting beliefs that I might have, thinking that I can’t do it myself, but actually as a team and, and it’s about bringing the team forward also as well. ‘Cause HOL is more than me and Kai Xin, but really the community, the contributors that move it forward. For me, that’s, I think, quite a low point, but I think it’s like you also feel happy.

[00:12:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So a bit weird, yes.

[00:12:52] Kai Xin: Separation brings despair.

[00:12:54] Heng Xuan: Yes. Lamentation.

[00:12:57] Kai Xin: Well I didn’t, I really didn’t know. I think he needs a lot of assurance, so please comment and say in the chat.

[00:13:06] Kai Xin: So his wife is like this little bird that will come and tell me things, right? Yeah. And I kind of know that I knew that you were not taking it well. Um. But then I had to keep reiterating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it, I mean, you’re not doing this alone. We have a team and we have a very capable team, and in fact, I’m only doing this little bit. Yeah. So I think HOL would move on and will go on, to greater heights without me

[00:13:35] Heng Xuan: and us eventually.

[00:13:38] Kai Xin: Yeah. And if, if we are able to do that, that’s actually a really good sign because we are. I mean, the ability to decouple ourself from the organization and not having it rely a hundred percent fully, I think this is where legacies are built, right?

[00:13:53] Kai Xin: So I think over the years we have built a lot of SOPs. We have, you know, built a great team, brought in different type of skill sets and talent. Like the lady who is sitting behind the camera right now, You Shan, who’s leading the design and illustration team. And we have got many new initiatives and pillars and more people are joining us as volunteers as well.

[00:14:17] Kai Xin: So things are just gonna be exciting. And I always know that when a chapter closes, another would open. And really, you don’t know what would unfold from this. Yeah. So don’t limit yourself to thinking that HOL has to be with me or be with you. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:14:33] Heng Xuan: yeah.

[00:14:34] Kai Xin: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Heng Xuan: Yeah, she’s provided very good assurance.

[00:14:38] Kai Xin: So we are not shutting down if you continue to subscribe.

How is HOL adapting to this change?

[00:14:50] Kai Xin: We, we do have some, you know, handover plans and certain concrete guidelines or concrete steps in order to achieve that.

[00:14:57] Heng Xuan: I think in slowly having the incremental team coming together, and building out the different pillars of HOL is something that we long time overdue and having that in place was crucial to balance our mission and her transition out.

[00:15:10] Heng Xuan: So having amazing people joining our team, to support different ops, I think that was crucial in giving me a bit more confidence on where we are going.

[00:15:20] Kai Xin: Yeah, I think we also had a discussion about what are some fears and things that would create anxiety with me not being around and then working backwards from there. To say, okay, how can this not be a factor of fear? So I think there are a lot of different initiatives that we’re trying. And, to be honest, from an operational side of thing, there’s another vision about being financially sustainable, which we are still, honestly, quite far from it.

[00:15:50] Heng Xuan: Taking baby steps.

[00:15:51] Kai Xin: Yeah, baby steps. And we wanna also assure our followers that we would never commercialize Dhamma. We are experimenting with different ways as to how we would be able to either offer products or service or different things where you might pay in a professional sense or in a non Dhamma aspect. But if we were to add a Dhamma angle to make it more wholesome, would that work?

[00:16:16] Kai Xin: And we wanna keep our content free as usual, so that people would be able to access, and any bonus would or might have a price tag to it. So also hope to seek followers understanding when we do try out something that our promise to you is we would wanna stay true to the Dhamma, but you can feel free to call us out if you feel uncomfortable with certain things that the, the team is moving towards. And we need, I mean, HOL needs people to keep the team accountable. Yeah. Yeah.

What made you confident about your decision to leave?

[00:16:55] Kai Xin: I think there is, there are two aspects to this. The first one is that I don’t feel irresponsible that with my departure, the entire team would have to carry like the burden of this void. Then the other aspect is more, in personal capacity. So in terms of HOL, I’ve been seeing team members contributing amazing work and there are times where I can go on retreat where I don’t have to be contacted at all.

[00:17:23] Kai Xin: And things are just, you know, going as per usual, that brought a lot of confidence to say that hey, actually, with, without my presence, the operations would still continue. And it might not… I mean, HOL might not necessarily accelerate in terms of its growth, but at least it can continue to stay business as usual and still continue to benefit people from what it has already been doing well.

[00:17:50] Kai Xin: From a personal front, I think there are a couple of things. So, first is definitely my progress in terms of the practice. I, I feel confident, a little bit more in myself that, yeah, this is the path that I, I foresee myself, taking. And I, I don’t think I wanna back out from it. The second part is, of course, financially there needs to be some practical calculations.

[00:18:17] Kai Xin: Not to say that I’m like super rich, but enough for me to sustain a lifestyle, to focus on practice fully. Why that cough? I found a community in Thailand. And I feel very, very supported and everyone is very encouraging. I feel very inspired by their practice as well with good teachers. So it checked many boxes and the big question is just like, why wait? Like what am I waiting for? Yeah.

Are you REALLY gone?

[00:18:53] Kai Xin: So I’ve discussed with Heng Xuan that me stepping down would mean that I would no longer be involved in the operation side of things, and this means no meetings with them, no discussing, brainstorming, strategizing the future for HOL, no building stuff at all. So I would be completely hands off here, and the team has requested that I, once in a while, if there is a need for a sounding board to be contactable via call. I’ve, yeah, I, I’ve agreed, yeah, to that. In terms of frequency, hopefully not every other day.

[00:19:33] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s kind of like a stop-gap measure, right? So if, let’s say, the team gets too crazy, like, let’s say, selling soft toys, then I think then we all like consult Kai Xin and then she’ll like, get your head screwed on.

[00:19:46] Kai Xin: Yeah. I mean, it’s not a terrible idea to sell soft toys.

[00:19:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:50] Kai Xin: But if anything that goes against the Dhamma, I’ll be, yeah, I’ll be the first to be very vocal about it.

[00:19:55] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So I think it’s just having that, keeping the lines open and agreeing, like keeping that sense of balance in check. ’cause sometimes it… we can be too stuck in the funnel and just keep tunnel visioning into something that may not align to our vision.

[00:20:08] Kai Xin: Yeah. Yeah. So you won’t see me at meetups anymore. I’m sorry.

[00:20:12] Heng Xuan: Sawadikap.

What would you miss most?

[00:20:21] Heng Xuan: Good riddance. No lah.

[00:20:23] Kai Xin: I don’t know. I, I think I’ve gotten to a stage where I try not to miss anything because there’s this, there’s this sense of attachment, right? When you miss something, when you miss something. But innately I get very excited building things. I, I like to build, I like to experiment. And of course, not experimenting alone, but bouncing it off with the team and then being able to, you know, see it from an idea to something tangible, to then getting feedback, positive feedback from the users.

[00:20:57] Kai Xin: If I have to choose something that would be something I miss. But yeah, it’s something that I have to let go as well because it strokes your ego where you receive praise and you receive the kind of validation that, hey, you know, this thing is working. Yeah. So letting go of that.

[00:21:13] Heng Xuan: Things that I’ll miss working directly with Kai Xin, I think would be the times where she says, I have a different way of looking at this, and that usually is Kai Xin’s way of saying, I disagree. Yeah. Yeah. I think having, having that, that person that openly disagrees with you is something I’ll miss. Second is I know I cannot build, in terms of technical skills, build as well as she does.

[00:21:36] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s something I’ll miss, like having that someone that you know will partner you to build something that’s pretty much crazy but possible. Like we, we build a t-shirt business out of nowhere.

[00:21:48] Kai Xin: Not, not part of HOL,

[00:21:49] Heng Xuan: not part of HOL

[00:21:49] Kai Xin: just in case you’re wondering, we’re selling T-shirts.

[00:21:52] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So we had our own like t-shirt brand and we built out nothing. So I think like we did many random things together and I think that’s something I’ll miss, that, that, that sense of like spontaneity, that allows you to, just grow into whatever challenges that you see and you just grab and you just build, you solve it, and you just keep moving on. So I think it’s something I’ll miss. Like, not having the sounding board and not having that, that Bob the builder right next to me. Yeah.

What do you think has been the impact of your partnership?

[00:22:25] Kai Xin: I don’t know. You tell us in the comments.

[00:22:28] Heng Xuan: I think one of it is like beyond HOL is, is serving the Buddhist community, building youth groups at the same time also trying to bring Buddhist organizations more digital first. I think these are like different projects that we have done together, but I think on a deeper level is giving people the opportunity to learn the Dhamma and seeing practitioners like sprout out nowhere, through the different efforts that we have, I think that’s something like money cannot buy.

[00:22:54] Heng Xuan: Like I would imagine ourselves 10 years back the community that we had, to today, the number of people practicing the Dhamma, understanding what’s meditation retreats. I think that’s something that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, immeasurable.

[00:23:07] Kai Xin: This is recency effect because just not too long ago there, there was a Dhamma brother who reached out and asked who, you know, put this together and whether they could ask for some inputs as to how we put together HOL and some lessons that we have learned. Then we realized that the questions actually came from a very reputable venerable in Malaysia.

[00:23:31] Heng Xuan: Senior. Yeah. Very senior venerable.

[00:23:33] Kai Xin: Yeah. Who is also trying to build young Buddhist community. I think that’s a very big gap in this area. So having signs like this that people look up to HOL or use us as a benchmark, even though, to be honest, we are not like the best or the most perfect, but at least there are some learning points that they can draw from in order to benefit their community.

[00:23:55] Kai Xin: I think that is something that is pretty amazing. And just showing what, showing, just showing people what is possible. I think for too often, too long, over the years before HOL, there were a lot of talks on ideas. We always go for these forums, this symposium to brainstorm on the next ideas and I think one thing I’m really appreciative is actually, like Heng Xuan being a very reliable partner because like for us it is like, okay, let’s not just talk. Let’s do it. And it’s very difficult to find people who is willing to put in the, the effort to actually make it work and not just, you know, say only.

[00:24:32] Kai Xin: So I hope that through our journey we have shown people that this is possible and kind of encourage them to get started. Don’t think so much, just just do and just keep it reiterating. Yeah. And just keep experimenting and see what’s there.

[00:24:47] Heng Xuan: Just fail fast. Learn fast. Yeah. And, and just have your vision in mind. But, I think oftentimes people both keep looking at me and Kai Xin’s impact right. But, it’s also important to reflect that we are also dependent on like many different generations of teachers that the teachings pass through to reach us today. So don’t just look at us like, wow. Very big and stuff like that.

[00:25:10] Heng Xuan: I, I think, important to know that we are literally just the moon and the moon reflects the light of the sun. That’s what Ajahn Jayasaro says. And the sun is the Buddha. So yeah. Always remember that.

[00:25:21] Kai Xin: Yeah. And that whatever we do, there’s a ripple effect. In fact, like for me, if there isn’t website, like Access to Insight by Venerable Thanissaro, where I can easily access sutta, discourses of the Buddha, I wouldn’t be able to deepen my Dhamma understanding and knowledge. So whatever we have today actually sits on previous generation of work, be it whether it’s online or offline. So yeah, just keep sharing, provided that you have tested it for yourself and you know that what you’re sharing, it’s, you know, aligned with the Dhamma. Just keep practicing doing good work.

What excites you most about this new chapter?

[00:26:05] Kai Xin: I am not really excited about anything, nor am I really looking forward. I think I’m just taking things one step at a time, and as it comes, life will be pretty boring ’cause I’ll be doing the same routine every day. I suppose I would just keep putting in the effort and, maybe what excites me is to be closer to the Buddha in a sense where I get to practice what he teach.

[00:26:28] Kai Xin: And I think that’s the closest distance you can get to him. Right? Yeah. And by putting my best effort to realize the teachings. Recently we did an interview with Ryan, who, our, our friend, Dhamma friend Ryan, who is now a monk. And when I asked him how he felt. I think it encapsulate how I feel as well and the word is “relief”.

[00:26:51] Kai Xin: And he explained because this is something that he is been wanting to do for such a long time, and he finally is able to put things down and don on the robes. I, I’m, I’m not gonna don on the robes, just a disclaimer. But I, yeah, I, I think instead of excitement, it’s just this sense of relief to say like, oh, it’s finally here.

[00:27:08] Kai Xin: Because for such a long time, even when I first started working, people ask me how’s work? And the answer would always be, it’s great. But then there’s this lingering thing that I, I’m not sure what it is, but something just feels off from the center point, like from the true North and yeah. Now things just feel in place like it’s aligned finally. So it’s not boring.

You Shan: What’s the boring routine?

[00:27:33] Kai Xin: Boring routine. So you would pretty much wake up 4:00 AM in the day, monks wake up at 3:00 AM. 5:00 AM chanting. And then you help out with chores, sweep the leaves, clean the tables, and then there will be almsround You can help out with that as well. There’ll be more chanting in the morning at about eight o’clock.

[00:27:54] Kai Xin: Have your main meal. We only eat once a, once a day. One main meal a day. You have pretty much the whole day to yourself until 3:00 PM chores again. And then in a monastery that I’m in, 7:15 PM it is another evening chanting session. Yeah. And every day it’s just the same. There might be projects in between

[00:28:15] Heng Xuan: and festivals.

[00:28:16] Kai Xin: Festivals, yeah. Which, when the monastery can get really busy, we’ll have to do with cleaning and yeah. Like planning, organizing. Yeah. I guess the only difference is if you’ll meet different people maybe on a daily basis, because people come and go, our visitors and retreatants. Yeah.

[00:28:32] Heng Xuan: So I think what excites me most is the expanding reach that HOL is having and having more people on board. Contributors that join the team would ensure that we bring even more human capital into the Buddhist world. And where I’m excited at one of the different ideas is to upskill the Buddhist community to get even better at doing what they do.

[00:28:52] Heng Xuan: And I believe that HOL will be well positioned to help that. Other areas would include exploring new formats to reach people. And already we do see many different people coming to Dhamma through different articles, through different videos and podcasts. So for me, I think that remains a really exciting area for us to keep experimenting because the moment you stop experimenting then it’s like you’re not trying.

[00:29:16] Heng Xuan: So it’s, I’m looking forward to more failures, kind of. Yeah. And, and just keep learning, like we said, no to merchandise, but like maybe that’s gonna come out for us. So for me, that’s what excites, is to never say never and just keep exploring where things go and meeting super cool people, like that are joining our team. I don’t shout out individually, but like yeah. You know who you are. Yeah. You all know who you are and really talented in what you do.

How will your friendship evolve?

[00:29:40] Kai Xin: We’ll still be friends. I’ll still be kind of contactable, just not as accessible for me, I think it’s a big question mark because it’s never the same or never gonna be the same as compared to you being able to meet up, you know, chat over meal and bounce off ideas.

[00:30:06] Heng Xuan: I think I have to meet her in Thailand, so I have to go Thailand. I think it’s just, I mean your friendships on maintenance mode, just like when I go Thailand then I’ll see her. And somehow I just keep going to Thailand. I dunno why, but yeah.

Words of wisdom for the team and future contributors?

[00:30:23] Kai Xin: What advice? What wisdom? Wisdom. Oh wow. Wisdom. Even worse, I don’t have any innate wisdom, so I have to lean to the Buddhist words. I think one thing that never fails so far based on my own experience is to use the three poison as yard sticks. It gets a little tricky when we wanna embark on a new initiative because you might not know whether it is fulfilling your alter ego.

[00:30:51] Kai Xin: Is it serving the community? It could be, but there can also be a very fine line or a trace of unwholesome. Because I think financial sustainability is always very tricky, and that’s like a hurdle that we are trying to cross as HOL collectively. So greed, hatred and delusion. These are the three poisons.

[00:31:09] Kai Xin: If we can, the team can kind of check against this to see what is the level of greed, hatred, and delusion. Delusion is hard to to check, so have someone keep the team accountable. I think pretty much the team will do. Okay. Yeah. ’cause the last thing that personally I would want for any Buddhist organization is to go off path when we might start off with a very wholesome intention, with a wholesome vision, but, you know, we get blinded by all of this, blinded by our own defilements. So yeah, have that as the yardstick. I think that would be the safest bet. Not, not really a bet, but a safest route. So words of the Buddha.

Final words to each other

[00:31:58] Heng Xuan: It is kind of sort of the end, but not the end of a journey that we have been embarking since we were 17.

[00:32:06] Kai Xin: Wow. Yeah, wow.

[00:32:07] Heng Xuan: Like it has been, yeah, it has been a good like 15 years working together and things are gonna change. It’s going to, it’s just gonna be different. We’re not gonna build stuff together anymore.

[00:32:17] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s really different, but I just wanna thank you for all the random shit that we have done together, like for the past 15 years, which is like almost half of our life, like almost half our lifetimes. Right. Just doing projects together. So, yeah, I just wanna say I could think of no better person than to build this entire ecosystem with together. So thank you.

[00:32:36] Kai Xin: I’m getting emotional. How can I hug you? Aw, you know, the first episode of podcast I cried too, because Cheryl made me cry. Yeah, I mean, I’m very appreciative. Yeah, I, I don’t know. I always feel like there’s a lot that you can do as a person and like for to you individually, apart from all the thanks, is, is really, you don’t necessarily have to take everything on your shoulder by yourself.

[00:33:10] Kai Xin: I think sometimes it seems scary because it can feel like you’re walking alone. Mm-hmm. But you have people around to support and even though you’re great at doing a lot of things, often better than others, sometimes it’s okay to lean on others even though they might not necessary, be it the a hundred percent, you know, level.

[00:33:31] Kai Xin: Yeah. ’cause when you have a community, you have many, maybe like 75% of people, and that way surpass a hundred percent in the, as an individual. So don’t be too hard on yourself and you don’t always have to be productive. It’s okay to sometimes, you know, go on a break. Yeah. And not think about HOL. Give yourself permission that, give yourself permission to do that.

[00:33:54] Kai Xin: And yeah, don’t always have to, yeah, do things for others. I know you do a lot of things for yourself, but, at the back of your head you’re like, Hey, how can I milk this? Yes. For HOL, for DAYWA, for whatever, you know, initiative and just, you know, productivity kind of guy, but it’s okay to not be productive sometimes. Yeah. And just let your mind rest. Aw. Are you crying?

[00:34:23] Kai Xin: But I am really thankful. So I kind of feel like we have been doing, we’ve been like been doing this, contributing to Dhamma for like multiple lifetimes. Yeah. So for me,

[00:34:35] Heng Xuan: see you for seven more lifetimes.

[00:34:37] Kai Xin: Yeah. This is not really goodbye. You’ll still see me, come to Thailand. Give you an excuse, a reason to come to Thailand for retreat. Yeah.

[00:34:52] Kai Xin: Like, subscribe, support.

[00:34:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really it, like contribute our efforts and contribute our skills. Okay. Take that again. So, like, subscribe and share this video. But jokes aside, I think contribute your skills. If you feel like there’s something that you always wanted to try, experiment, just try out.

[00:35:16] Heng Xuan: Just reach out to us and share with us, like, why do you think this is a fit for HOL? We’ll work something out. I think we are always looking for people with the skill sets and expertise to bring things forward. Oftentimes we put a hundred percent of our work life energy right into just our careers. But why not put a bit of that percentage of that innovation, that knowledge into serving the Dhamma? And I think that will bring immense benefits.

[00:35:40] Kai Xin: And as you talk about financial sustainability, we, the team is, is really bootstrapping. We’ve just recently hired or experimented with hiring a full-time content editor, not so sure about how this experiment goes, but if we have the capital we can, or the team has more room to play around with ideas and to execute on certain things. So if you have been benefiting so far, it would really, really benefit not just the team, but the entire community, because the team is not doing this for the team’s sake.

[00:36:12] Kai Xin: We are doing this for everyone’s sake. So yeah, go to the Patreon or sponsorship page to see which one kind of appeals to you? Mm. I think beyond supporting through monetary means, of course, it, it’s really supporting through your practice, by being a good practitioner. It really has an immense effect to the people around you.

[00:36:35] Kai Xin: People will start feeling like, Hey, something is different about this. Like, oh, I read HOL article, oh, because of HOL you know, I go for this retreat and stuff. So work on yourself. Yeah. And that’s like the best marketing and publicity one can do for Buddhism. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:48] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I always say don’t be the proverbial like auntie who says they do the Metta chanting then after that hit and kill the mosquito. Don’t, don’t be that person. Right. Just go and practice. Be a impact. Fly the flag of the Buddha way, way, way high. And I think that would be crazy, crazy good to this world.

[00:37:07] Kai Xin: Yeah. And for yourself too, in case you don’t make it this lifetime, next lifetime dhamma will still be around.

[00:37:11] Heng Xuan: We hope that you enjoy this series on exploring why Kai Xin is saying goodbye.

[00:37:16] Kai Xin: Yeah. And

[00:37:17] Heng Xuan: we will see you soon.

[00:37:19] Kai Xin: All the best to everybody. May you stay happy and and wise.


Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen, Nai Kai Lee, Amelia Toh, Hannah Law, Shin Hui Chong


Editor and Transcriber of this episode:

Tan Si Jing, Ang You Shan, Bernice Bay


Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan


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Breakups, Buddhism, and me: A sharing of unexpected healing

Breakups, Buddhism, and me: A sharing of unexpected healing

TLDR: This article is a continuation of my previous article about falling into depression. Here I describe the phase of recovering from depression and along the way learning Dhamma backwards, from experience to theory. 

Note to readers: this article only reflects my personal journey through mental illness. Please seek professional medical advice if you are feeling unwell. You may read part I here.

The training  

Thinking about my loved ones, I decided to try and solve this depressive state I am in. If I am already ready to end everything, what else can I lose right?  

The first thing I turned to.. was YouTube. 

I was searching for ways to overcome sadness or how to overcome a broken relationship.  

The search on YouTube returned two sources of information: meditation guidance by Mingyur Rinpoche and Q&A sessions by an Indian Mystic to Indian university students.  

The training begins.  

The noble truth of suffering  

Breakups, Buddhism, and me: A sharing of unexpected healing
  • Sickness is suffering  
  • Not getting what you want is suffering 
  • Being separated from what you want is suffering.  

These three phrases summed up what I was going through during my depression. I did not want to have a negative mind so I constantly fought the sick mind which was full of negative thoughts and feelings.


Constantly replaying memories of my past broken relationship, I relished in the past. After the memories stopped playing, I came back to reality, realizing that I would never get back to the relationship. Not getting what I wanted, I suffered.

Origin of suffering is craving 

  • I can never get back the familiar relationship that I want. But I want a sense of familiarity. 
  • I can never be with the person that I was familiar with. But I want the comfort of being with the person. 
  • I am drowning in negative thoughts and feelings. I don’t want pain!  

These thoughts of wanting and not getting it replayed in my head. So much dukkha.  

To try and overcome the depression, I followed Mingyur Rinpoche’s meditation technique to visualize my thoughts and feelings like clouds in my mind. Whenever you see thoughts and feelings arise, treat them like clouds and see them fade away.  

Easier said than done.

For the first year of meditation to overcome depression, I never meditated for more than 15 minutes. Sitting down in meditation and watching my mind, negative feelings and thoughts swamped me within seconds and minutes. I got tired from the activities of the mind so I fell asleep tired.  

A side note, it was after reading MN10 Satipaṭṭhānasutta that I realized that I should have started meditation from the body first instead of feelings. But I wouldn’t have known it back then.

All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner;
they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
If one speaks or acts with an evil mind,
dukkha‘ follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart.
Dhammapada 1

The mind will drift in the direction you guide it towards. In the initial stages where I still had not accepted the broken relationship, I saw the negative thoughts and feelings, and I followed them and relished in them, to replay the memories of the past. 

Cessation of craving leads to the cessation of suffering 

What helped me to get over the negative thoughts and feelings of a break-up? Acknowledging that the relationship was over and it was time to move on helped. I set the intention to see my negative thoughts and feelings and acknowledge them, instead of fighting them (not wanting the thoughts and feelings) or chasing them (wanting and relishing in the thoughts) 

  • “You are not your body, you are not your mind” 
  • “Once you put some distance between yourself and your body and mind, that’s the end of suffering”  
  • “If you are in the river, you cannot see the river. If you are outside the river, you can see the river.” 

These phases gave me progress in meditation through depression. 

I stopped the strong craving for the negative thoughts and feelings to go away. I stopped fighting the thoughts and feelings. I put some distance between me, the observer, and the thoughts and feelings (the grasping aggregates).  

I was like a person in a cinema watching the memories and feelings play out in the mental cinema of my mind.  

The meditation got easier and slowly, I became the observer of the raging thoughts and emotions. I saw the thoughts and emotions arise and I saw them slowly fading away.  

Honey-Cake sutta 

Breakups, Buddhism, and me: A sharing of unexpected healing

To give a little more flavour of my journey through mental illness, I’ll use the Honey-Cake sutta.  

Sense organs (e.g. eyes) + sense consciousness (a functioning eye) + Phenomenon (Sights from the surrounding). The meeting of the three, is contact.
Contact is a condition for feelings.

What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. – MN 18 The Honey-Cake

What do all these mean?  

After my breakup, whenever I saw couples, the sight of them triggered all the memories in my mind. My mind started to feel all the past feelings and memories came flooding out. Holding onto the feelings and memories, I craved for the past. All these actions happened in just a split second.  

When I became more mindful, I saw that I was seeing, I was aware that I was seeing. So when I saw couples, I was mindful that thoughts and feelings arose. Then I watched the thoughts and feelings play out in my mind. Not getting carried away by the mental drama of thoughts and feelings, I saw the mental drama slowly fade away.  

Beyond the flood  

After meditating for four years, I can see my own aggregates objectively. Whenever the aggregates get triggered by contact with the inner world (thinking about the past) or the outside world (when I see couples), I can see the aggregates at some distance and not get carried away.  

The thoughts and feelings of the breakup are still there. But the aversion to the thought and feelings became much much weaker. Negative thoughts and feelings became just thoughts and feelings. There is no need to label the aggregates as good or bad. Aggregates are just phenomena that arise and if you watch them with some distance, not getting carried away, they fade away. 

nibbida — disenchantment;

viraga — dispassion;

nirodha — cessation;

vimutti — Liberation

Reference: Upanisasutta – SN12.23

Once you stop getting enchanted/attracted (nibbida) by your aggregates (negative thoughts and feelings in this case), you develop viraga (dispassion). Eventually, you get tired of engaging with the negative thoughts and feelings, then it becomes nirodha (cessation). Finally, vimutti, freedom from the grasp of the negative mind states.  

What about learning Dhamma backwards?  

Throughout the article, I have thrown in Dhamma concepts and Pali words. But throughout the four years when I was meditating to overcome depression, I never learned any Dhamma concepts. 

I never knew about the noble truths, five grasping aggregates, six sense bases etc. 

It was only after four years of meditation that my mental conditioning became stable. I went to search for answers about the journey I had been through.  

This meant, to me, that Dhamma is the reality around us. Dhamma is not just theory in a book to me because I experienced the Dhamma. With the practice of meditation, there is a gradual development of dispassion towards those raging emotions and grasping aggregates.

I learnt through experiencing the Dhamma before searching for theoretical knowledge in the suttas.  

Resources I found 

My search to relate my experience to Dhamma concepts took me to Buddhist Fellowship and DAYWA. Through Buddhist Fellowship, I attended the Dhamma Foundation Course (DFC) conducted by Sister Sylvia Bay and Brother Ong Chye Chye.  

The detailed and lively lessons of Sis Sylvia and Bro Chye gave me the Dhamma roadmap to link what I experienced to the Dhamma taught by the Buddha. Lessons included discussions and meditation sessions for participants to understand and experience the Dhamma concepts and bring the concepts to life.  

DAYWA, aka Dhamma Assembly for Young Working Adults, is a group of young Buddhist practitioners. It is through DAYWA that I found like-minded friends who are committed to the practice and discuss our journey together. Through the events and discussions, I learned more about the Dhamma and grew in my Dhamma journey.  

Disclaimer: To highlight any conflict of interest, I volunteer at both Buddhist Fellowship and DAYWA at the time of writing this article. But to see if I am biased or not, it is for the wise to visit these organizations and see it for themselves 🙂 

Concluding points 

My intention in sharing my journey is to give my version of going through a mental illness. Everyone’s situation of suffering (dukkha) might be a little different, ranging from minor dissatisfaction to severe depression.  

Being aware of the suffering is the first step and having the intention to take steps to overcome the suffering to bring you more peace is a wholesome act that deserves praise. 

The journey to reduce our suffering is a long one. But the Dhamma is a gradual training path and every effort we make can bring us to more peace and joy. Meeting the Dhamma and gaining even one minute of peace from the flood of your mind is like finding an oasis in the vast desert.

Sabbe Satta Sukhita Hontu. May all beings be happy. 

Mental health resources for those in need:


Wise steps 

  1. Acknowledge your grasping aggregates (body, feelings, thoughts, perceptions and consciousness).  
  2. Learn to see your aggregates in a neutral manner. Not satisfying your aggregates and not fighting your aggregates 
  3. In the Dhamma journey, learn moderation to reduce craving. 
Dhamma vs. Adhamma (ft. Uncle Vijaya)

Dhamma vs. Adhamma (ft. Uncle Vijaya)

Summary

In the vast ocean of teachings, how do we discern the true Dhamma from the false? This question echoes through the ages, resonating in the hearts of seekers and practitioners alike. In a recent conversation with Uncle Vijaya, we delve deep into this inquiry, shedding light on crucial steps for navigating the path of Buddhism amidst a sea of teachings.

About the Speaker

Vijaya Samarawickrama, fondly known as Uncle Vijaya, is a respected figure within Buddhist communities, delivering countless inspiring Dhamma talks at universities, schools, and Dhamma centres throughout Malaysia, as well as in Singapore and Australia, spanning over six decades. In addition to his speaking engagements, he held the role of Patron at the Sasana Abhiwurdhi Wardhana Society in Kuala Lumpur and served as the Chairman of Nalanda Institute’s Education team. He represented Malaysia in various Buddhist conventions and conferences, both locally and internationally. He has authored over a dozen booklets, with more than 150,000 copies distributed worldwide. Before his retirement, he held the position of a senior lecturer at Universiti Teknologi Malaysia and worked as a lecturer in Drama and Theatre, Public Speaking, and World Religion at Taylor’s University American Degree Program.

Key Takeaways

Staying Faithful to the Buddha’s Words

At the heart of discernment lies the Buddha’s seal of approval. Uncle Vijaya emphasizes the significance of aligning teachings with the canonized scriptures, known as the Nikayas. These ancient texts, meticulously preserved through oral tradition, serve as a benchmark for authenticity. As the Buddha explained to Venerable Gotami in Aṅguttaranikāya (Numbered Discourses) 8.53:

“You might know that certain things lead to dispassion, not passion; to unyoking, not to yoking; to dispersal, not accumulation (of worldly gains); to fewer desires, not more; to contentment, not lack of contentment; to seclusion, not crowding; to energy, not laziness; to being unburdensome, not being burdensome. Categorically, you should remember these things as the teaching, the training, and the Teacher’s instructions.”

Guidance of Wise Teachers

In the journey of discernment, wise mentors illuminate the path. Cheryl and Uncle Vijaya stress the importance of seeking guidance from experienced practitioners who embody the teachings they impart. Discerning true Dhamma requires more than intellectual understanding; it demands experiential wisdom nurtured through the guidance of compassionate and knowledgeable teachers. With humility and patience, seekers can gradually deepen their understanding and practice, following the footsteps of those who have traversed the path before them.

In essence, discerning true Dhamma from false teachings is a journey of self-discovery and inner transformation. By anchoring ourselves in the Buddha’s timeless wisdom, seeking guidance from wise mentors, and nurturing inner virtues, we navigate the path with clarity and purpose. As Uncle Vijaya reminds us, amidst the myriad teachings and traditions, the true Dhamma shines as a beacon of liberation, guiding us toward the ultimate goal of awakening.

Transcript:

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl: Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast. My name is Cheryl. And with me I have Uncle Vijaya. For those who are big fans of our YouTube and our podcast, you will recognize that Uncle Vijaya has done an episode with us before. So I’m very excited to have Uncle Vijaya back.

I’m excited to be here too.

Awesome. we will be talking about distinguishing between false Dhamma and true Dhamma. nowadays there’s so many people who teach Dhamma. If you just Google or you just YouTube, everyone calls themselves a Dhamma teacher.

We have lay people, we have monastics, random people. So information is everywhere and anyone can package their teachings as the way to enlightenment. So for those who are interested in Buddhism, how can we discern that we’re truly learning the Buddha’s words and the Eightfold path?

So, Uncle Vijaya is awesome. He’s so experienced, very, very experienced Dhamma teacher. And I can’t think of anyone better who will enlighten us on this topic.

[00:01:06] Uncle Vijaya: No.

Thank you. Okay. So, what we in Buddhist circles would call what you are referring to is Adhamma. Dhamma is that which is approved by the Buddha, taught by the Buddha, and we’re very fortunate that even during the Buddha’s time, when he was still alive, what he taught was codified, classified and approved by the Buddha. I’ll go into that in a minute. But, during the Buddha’s time also, this was necessitated by the fact that there was a lot of Adhamma going on. Adhamma meaning that which is not Dhamma.

And a lot of people were either on their own making claims or for publicity purposes, misrepresenting the Buddha. One is misrepresenting, one is genuinely not understanding. Behind all of this is the fact that the Dhamma is not easy to understand. It is not for the faint-hearted. Yeah, the Buddha realized that immediately after his enlightenment. He asked himself whether he should share this Dhamma, which has brought him so much of personal benefit. Then he hesitated And he said it’s too difficult.

It is too complex and it is may not be worth his while to try and explain it to people whose eyes are covered with dust, who cannot see. So it’s a waste of time. He was on the verge of moving away because of the possibility that Adhamma would interfere. Whether he wanted to go and waste the rest of his life or the thought occurred to him, why don’t he become a Pacceka Buddha. Pacceka Buddhas are Buddhas, in exactly like our Buddha but they do not have the ability to teach. So they are called silent Buddhas. So the Buddha thought of becoming a Pacceka Buddha.

[00:03:25] Cheryl: This is a very profound moment because in the past the Buddha actually forsake the opportunity to become an Arahant because he wanted to become a Buddha to benefit all sentient beings.

But the fact that when he became a Buddha, he then had the doubts of whether he should teach. So it really points to how sublime this Dhamma is.

[00:03:48] Uncle Vijaya: How sublime…… It wasn’t the failing on the Buddha’s part, but the Buddha’s own realization of whether there are beings that would understand. Why waste? Why cast pearls before swine? You know, so when that thought occurred to him, we are so lucky. Venerable Sangharakshita says that mankind’s fate hung in the balance, very dramatic. Now, should I, should I not. And then Maha Brahma comes down and pleads with the Buddha and says, please do go ahead and teach because there are beings with little dust in their eyes.

And then the Buddha said, it’s not that the Buddha needed to be told that, the Buddha knew it. But I think this is the way of expressing that there was a need, and there was the assurance. History has shown that he made the right decision to teach because there were so many who benefited right down to our own time.

Okay. So it was Maha Brahma who pleaded with the Buddha to teach the Dhamma, and the Buddha proceeded. And the Buddha achieved a lot. During the 45 years of his teaching, there was so much of Adamma as well.

Some were doing it viciously, others were doing it innocently. They didn’t understand. And the Buddha had to constantly remind his followers to go ahead and follow his Dhamma. And he made many, many discourses where he separated the Dhamma from the Adhamma, yeah?

How do you differentiate between the two? And we are fortunate in that the Buddha himself Approved what is Dhamma and what is not.

One incident is, just before the Buddha passed away, the Buddha was already quite old, reaching the end of his career, and one of the strongest opponents, those who are teaching other views, was a Philosopher called Nigantha Nātaputta. And he had just died.

And after he died, because he had not made clear what it is that he was teaching, and he made final decisions on what to teach and what not to teach, when he died, there was a huge amount of controversy. And it became very ugly.

Okay. Now we come back to the Buddha. So the Buddha was in this place, and he had given the Dhamma talk, and he said, okay, now it’s time. I want to rest. And it goes, Sariputta, while I am resting, I can see that the monks are very alert, they are not sleepy, you see, and they are ready for more Dhamma talk. So while I rest, you go ahead and teach on my behalf.

Get the picture? It’s late in the evening, Buddha had just finished, monks were still alert and ready to listen more. And Sariputta was told, okay, please deputize for me. And Sariputta said, now that Nigantha Nātaputta has just died, there’s so much of controversy because there’s no authority to say what is the truth and what is not. We will avoid this. So he said that to do this, he will list out everything that the Buddha taught. Now we know that the popular saying is there were 84000 units of Dhamma that the Buddha taught over his 45 years. So he said, let us codify that. Let us collate that. Let us organize that.

Okay, and remember it was a culture which had no writing. It was an oral culture. and Venerable Sariputta decided to chant together in the Digha Nikaya. Yeah, it is recorded as the chanting together, Saṅgīti Sutta (DN 33). So he said, let us all together recite everything that the Buddha taught, right? And they used a device which we use for remembering, mnemonics because it’s not a written device. It’s an oral thing and to remember, so what they did was they put this knowledge that they had accumulated, uh, codified it into 1, 2, 3.

What is 1…

what is 2…

what is 3… Triple Gem. Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. All the 3s, all the 4s, all the way down.

So the whole night, Sariputta and the rest of the monks together recited everything, they rehearsed. Everything that the Buddha spoke on in ones, twos, threes, fours, and so on, right? And by the time they finished, it was already morning. And the Buddha got up from his rest. And he said, I heard it all. I approve. Sadhu! Yes, my hair also stands on end, Sadhu! Because that tells us that we have right down to our time what the Buddha taught. This is the Dhamma, right? And anything that is not included in this, that is not the Dhamma.

[00:09:51] Cheryl: So, this gives a lot of assurance and confidence that whenever we hear something that we’re not sure of, we can go back and check because the Buddha gave the stamp of approval.

[00:10:02] Uncle Vijaya: Absolutely. That was when the Budha was still alive. Immediately after the Budha died, seven months after he died, we had the First Council (483 BC). And in that First Council,

Venerable Ananda, “thus have I heard”.

One of the arrangements that Venerable Ananda made with the Buddha before he agreed to serve him was whatever Dhamma talk that the Buddha gave, if he had not been present, the Buddha would repeat. So, Venerable Ananda, he had a fantastic memory. Yeah, he listened and he remembered everything that the Buddha had taught in his presence as well as outside of it. For example, it is said that he spent three months in Tāvatiṃsa heaven preaching to his mother.

When he came back, he repeated that to Venerable Ananda, so that when the First Council took place, very soon, while it was still hot it was recorded again, using the same mnemonic device of ones, twos, threes. So we can be rest assured that this is the Dhamma. If any other teaching comes about later, well and good, provided that it fits in with the teaching of Dhamma.

Why did I say that? Because the Buddha said don’t reject everything as not Dhamma. Sometimes it can qualify, although the Buddha himself didn’t say it’s Dhamma, because he says his teaching is like the footprint of the elephant. It is the biggest footprint in the jungle. All other footprints will fit into that.

So other religions would also teach Dhamma mixed with Adhamma. The Buddha’s Four Noble Truths is the Dhamma and it’s not adulterated. This is the beauty of the Buddha’s teaching from then until now. Don’t condemn everybody else. He always says don’t condemn others. What they say may have elements of Dhamma. Look for that. And then this coincides with what the Buddha had taught. So accept. This way we avoid a whole lot of quarrels and so on. To say that all religions teach false, except Buddhism, the Buddha says, no, that is not a sensible way of approaching it. Yeah, if what they say coincides with what the Buddha said, well and good.

If it is not, without rancor, without anger, without bad manners, don’t reject. Just let it go. There you go. Just don’t accept. So this is the Dhamma and Adhamma. We are saying this because in today’s day and age with internet and so many new knowledges coming in, people are free to think for themselves.

Buddhism never stops you from thinking for yourself, but whatever is thought must be in line with the Dhamma.

[00:13:22] Cheryl: I’m just thinking about this question because a lot of it depends on our own independent investigation of what the Buddha said, right? The suttas. But as beginners, sometimes the suttas can be very difficult to understand.

 We’re a blank slate in that sense.

[00:13:41] Uncle Vijaya: Yes. Okay. The Buddha has an answer for that. He says his Dhamma is very deep, but it is like stepping into the ocean.

When you are on the beach, only your toes get wet, but the deeper you go, it becomes more and more complex. So, start with the basics. Start with the basic, which is the Four Noble Truths. Take as much as you can, for which you need competent teachers. Now, teachers can be those who are part of the tradition, all our Sangha community.

Lay Buddhist speakers and so on on the one hand, all right. Then of course we have the advantage of the internet. We have the technology, so we can use that as well. Take it a little bit at a time, don’t jump into the deep end of the pool. Like the Buddha says, first get your toes wet, then get your knees wet.

Don’t go and jump into the pool and say, tomorrow I want to be an Arahant. It is a gradual path. So, to answer your question, look for teachers who will take you by the hand. My own teacher was Venerable Narada, all right? And then, of course, the late Chief.

And they didn’t teach me about Abhidhamma at the beginning. They taught me how to be a good Buddhist on a day to day basis. I was comfortable with that. I didn’t need to go jump into meditation and all. And as I went along, I went deeper, so that way you don’t get frustrated. A lot of people jump in with too high expectations, and then they give up and blame Buddhism for it.

Buddhism is not to blame. Our approach is the one. So, we always are advised to look for competent teachers. And we are so lucky in this day and age, an unbroken chain from the time of the Saṅgīti Sutta (DN 33) to now, we have teachers who are able to help us to follow, to understand. But we must develop the humility and the patience to say it’s a gradual cannot happen overnight.

Some people are lucky. They are prepared, like in the sutras we hear of people gaining instant Arahanthood. Why? Because it has all been developed in past lives. So like Venerable Assaji tells Venerable Sariputta, just one line and Venerable Sariputta got enlightened. But we have to wait.

[00:16:43] Cheryl: We have to develop our spiritual faculties now. So next time, hopefully someone tells us one line and we get it.

[00:16:48] Uncle Vijaya: Absolute. Little by little, we build them up, okay?

[00:16:53] Cheryl: Yes. And you touched upon the point of having good teachers are very, very important. So what are the qualities that we should look out for in good teachers?

[00:17:02] Uncle Vijaya: A good teacher.

First, their own behavior. How do they carry themselves? Does what they say match what they do. A lot of teachers have the aura so and their own path. It’s easy to see very soon you can see the hypocrite from the genuine. And they’re all around us. There are bogus monks everywhere and you can see. Just look on their wrist if there’s a rolex there then okay, that’s a good indicator. Don’t follow him when he tells you to renounce everything and follow him. So like the little things.

Yeah, be sharp. Be humble. Don’t necessarily say I know better than him. The Buddha says that many occasions especially in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. The Buddha tells us that when you hear something don’t reject it outright. Don’t accept it outright. If that’s something in praise of the Buddha, don’t necessarily rejoice. Listen and put it against does this tally with what the Buddha said.

 Here, let me share with you this quote which I think is very beautiful. A very senior monk in Buddhist and Pali university in Sri Lanka shared this with us.

He quoted an article which appeared significantly in Sri Lanka about somebody telling us how to conduct ourselves. He says, if you are still a lay devotee, enjoy all the worldly pleasures your senses require you to do. And experience that they are not permanent. Now this guy is advising us that if you are still lay people, enjoy life, be hedonistic, you know the five senses.

Because if you don’t know, you don’t know what you’re giving up. When you get fed up, then you give up. Now, this monk is asking, even in today’s day and age, there are people claiming that this is Buddhism. We know that the Buddha has taught us to treat this thing as if it’s like a man whose beard is on fire. If his beard is on fire, he won’t wait to see the end of the fire to examine the scientific reasons for fire and so on.

He will put it out straight away. We are struck by the poison arrow of samsara. We cannot wait until tomorrow. We don’t have up to tomorrow. So you see, this is a good example of Adhamma.

What do we do? We put it against what the Buddha taught. We don’t throw it away and say, no, this is rubbish. Examine, does it make sense? Yeah, does it conform with what I have learned so far about what the Buddha has said? The Buddha says all is suffering. And he says that this suffering persists all the time. Everything is anicca. Anicca meaning everything is impermanent. So, this life now. It’s impermanent.

I cannot wait for tomorrow. I cannot wait. There is no tomorrow. It’s Akalika. It is transcending time. So when this guy says, have fun, enjoy life, and then when you are old, decide to become a Buddhist. No, this is Adhamma. And this monk shared this with us to make this point that even today it is so easy.

[00:21:00] Cheryl: And it’s so scary because it’s like half correct, half wrong, half correct in the sense that yes, we have to contemplate about impermanence.

[00:21:07] Uncle Vijaya: Absolutely. It is that half correct thing. But the Buddha says if we give in to our emotions and simply because we think it does not agree, that will cloud our thinking.

The Buddha says, don’t rejoice and don’t get angry. Calmly examine what this guy said and say, no, this is not the Dhamma. This is Adhamma. Dhamma is immediately.

 Your beard is burning, or you have been struck by a poison arrow, you don’t wait for tomorrow, right? So to answer this, I go back to the Buddha’s teaching and say, I cannot accept this.

So it is very difficult because especially today, with the commercialization of Buddhism through mindfulness training and all of that, it’s so easy for us to think that if we do all of this for material gain. See, there, whatever the Buddha taught was to lead us towards renunciation, to lead us towards giving up.

Here we are, how to make millions using mindfulness. I brought this up with Venerable Jayasaro and asked him, is it not wrong for them to use? He said, no, because mindfulness in itself is good. So if a person practices mindfulness, even if it is for the wrong reason, it is better than no mindfulness at all.

Get the point?

[00:22:56] Cheryl: I get the point, but I don’t really agree. If the person, let’s say, trains to become a sniper and uses mindfulness training to help them to kill more people, isn’t that wrong all the way?

[00:23:08] Uncle Vijaya: Yes, it is wrong all the way. It is definitely wrong. Hitler, for example, probably was very mindful, but he was wrong. We cannot approve. This is where the Buddha says, step back. Is this possible? This is not. But we have to admit that all over the world, people who go into mindfulness, whatever the reason, have become calm. So the immediate fallout from that is better calmness, maybe more patience.

And hopefully later he will step into the path, but that is better than allowing him to go into the way of, remember those days, the character training, they treat you as a doormat, and people are making lots of money, kill everybody, jump on the top, that kind of very bad teaching on materialism is sort of gone out of fashion today.

More people are into mindfulness. So maybe it’s a slow but better movement. Maybe we are getting more intelligent. Maybe we are getting slightly more wise.

[00:24:22] Cheryl: At least it’s a step in the right direction.

[00:24:24] Uncle Vijaya: A little step in the right direction.

[00:24:28] Cheryl: So what if we have friends who follow the guidance of wrong teachers? So meaning we think their teachers are wrong because of perhaps their ethical conduct or perhaps their teachings are a little bit fishy. How can we help them?

[00:24:47] Uncle Vijaya: We can help them first, go back to again what the Buddha advised. First thing is don’t reject them. Don’t condemn them. Don’t take an antagonistic view. Don’t pity them. Yeah, all of them. Don’t lose your respect for them. They are thinking wrong but you have to practice your Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha all the time. Always remember that whenever you want to go and condemn somebody you condemn yourself first because you have gone into anger and so on.

So first thing is develop a mind of Metta towards everybody. Follow the Buddha’s teaching. Take it, test it against what he had taught. Is this Dhamma? Is this not Adhamma? If it conforms with what the Buddha taught, accept it. If it does not, mindfully, carefully, without anger, explain to your friend, this is not Dhamma.

If he chooses, not to follow, like in the case of Devadatta, no matter what the Buddha did, he constantly went against the Buddha. If that is the case, then leave it. The Buddha left him alone. There was this other guy, Channa. Channa was very proud and Channa became a monk and he was impossible to control to the point that even the Buddha couldn’t control him.

He was so egoistic. The Buddha advised the monks to boycott. Boycott, not out of anger or whatever, but we can’t do anything with you, we better leave you alone. So that is the advice we are given. Don’t compromise ourselves. Don’t go into anger, condemnation.

People who are too enthusiastic about their religion. They want everybody to follow their way and they condemn anybody who doesn’t. Buddha says, no, don’t do that. Don’t compromise yourself. You must all the time be that lotus flower. If you can change, effect the change. A lot of people have trouble with convincing their parents. Good to go from wrong behavior to right behavior.

If you can, it’ll be good if you can change. But to fight and create more anger and hatred, that is not the Buddhist way. Patience, tolerance, understanding. So use those three as your guidelines. If possible, change people with wrong views. But if it is not possible, leave them.

[00:27:42] Cheryl: And sometimes the wisest thing is to actually walk away, because that is a form of understanding that any more effort that I try will just lead to unwholesome states to arise.

[00:27:53] Uncle Vijaya: For me, so before I throw, you know, filth, I must remember my hand will get dirty first. But that shouldn’t give rise to a sense of superiority. A lot of people we know saying, Oh, I am safe. Oh, I’m a good Buddhist. You know, I follow that guy is going to hell. That kind of superiority also is ego that we have to guard.

That’s more difficult to guard against. A lot of people take a very self righteous view. The Buddha constantly warns us, don’t be self righteous. You can help the person. More than being self-righteous you have to develop metta, karuna, more karuna, compassion for his wrong view. Metta, karuna, mudita.

Upekkha is that highest level. Don’t suffer with the suffering.

[00:28:54] Cheryl: And once people, let’s say, once people leave these wrong teachings, what I think can happen is they lose faith in Buddhism altogether because what they knew to be Buddhism is completely wrong. And if they find that out, they could be very lost. So how can we support them after they leave in that sense?

[00:29:17] Uncle Vijaya: Well, partly we can put it down to their own kind. They are not ready yet. Yeah, they may not be bad people. This is an important point to say. You have to see whatever goodness. There’s nobody who’s totally bad or totally wrong. All right, whatever good that he does, could eventually serve him in good stead to bring him along the right path.

Maybe this life, it went wrong. All right, hopefully next life he is born into a Buddhist family for whatever good he did, follow the right way, then he is safe. One way. Another way is to accept that not everybody can follow the path in the same way. So, support them to the extent that we can. Don’t make matters worse by being self righteous, as I said. By trying to change that person and creating more anger, more hatred. Maybe the better approach is to move, of course, radiating Metta, you know, behaving towards him with the same compassion, without a sense of superiority.

[00:30:33] Cheryl: Thanks so much for sharing and I’m just wondering if there’s anything that you have prepared that you want to share?

[00:30:38] Uncle Vijaya: I would like to share a lovely story. There was this monk, yeah, his name was Punna. Punna came to the Buddha one day and told the Buddha, Master, I want to go away to a very far away country and share my life with the people there.

But before I go, can you please give me a short teaching that I can use to meditate? So the Buddha gives him that short teaching, which is to do with the five senses. Whenever we use our five senses to attach to objects in the world, that leads to pain and suffering. The same five senses, when they attach, we do not connect, we disengage ourselves from this, that leads to happiness.

So that was a short teaching. Then the Buddha says where are you going? And Punna says, I’m going to a place called Sunaparanta. And Buddha said, you’re going to that place? That’s a very dangerous place. The people there are very unfriendly. What will you do if those people ridicule you?

If they ridicule me, he says, I am so happy they’re only ridiculing me, they do not hit me. And the Buddha said, what if they do hit me? Then he said, I will say, I’m so happy they only hit me with a stone, but they didn’t hit me with a stick. Then what if they hit you with a stick? Then I’ll say, they didn’t hit me with a knife.

And, what if they do hit me, then I’m glad they didn’t kill me. What if they do kill you? Then I will say, I’m very happy that I am waiting to leave this existence. I’m waiting to attain Nibbana. These people have helped me. So in all instances, I will maintain goodwill towards them. And the story goes that the Buddha said, now you are ready to go.

So I’ve said this because your question about how do we treat people who are antagonistic towards us. Always find something positive. Always develop your four Brahmaviharas. And the story goes that he did go, and he did meditate on what was told, he became an Arahant.

They came back and told the Buddha, Punna had died, he said, yes. It never bothered me, he didn’t ask me too many questions.

[00:33:32] Cheryl: Such a short yet profound teaching.

[00:33:34] Uncle Vijaya: There’s one I’d like to share with you I think this is relevant. The Buddha’s foster mother was Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī. You have been asking me how to tell right Dhamma and wrong Dhamma, okay? Well, Venerable Gotamī came to the Buddha and said, There are so many teachings. How do I tell the right Dhamma from the wrong Dhamma?

Your question. And the Buddha explained, of whatsoever teachings, Gotamī, thou can assure yourself thus. If I hear anything that makes me more angry or more happy,

conduce to passion, not to dispassion,

to bondage, not to detachment,

to increase of worldly gain, not to decrease of that,

to covetousness, not to frugality,

to discontent, not to content,

to company, not solitude,

to sluggishness, not energy,

to delight in evil, not delight in good. If any of these teachings lead in that direction,

of such teachings, you may with certainty affirm, Gotamī, this is not the norm. If any of these apply, then this is not what I taught.

This is not the discipline. But of whatsoever teachings you can assure yourself that they are the opposite of these things that I have told you, these teachings you may with certainty affirm, this is the norm. This is the discipline. Now, we can see in the world today, so many teachings, so many ways of behavior that is increasing so much anger, hatred, all in the name of religion, we can safely say, this is not what the Buddha taught. But if it teaches compassion, if it teaches sharing, if it teaches peace, solitude then this is what the Buddha taught. So it’s very basic, very simple, right? A lot of your questions you asked is answered by that.

[00:35:46] Cheryl: This is a beautiful checklist, right? That is offered by the Buddha.

[00:35:53] Uncle Vijaya: By the Buddha himself. So we don’t need to go anywhere else. We are constantly told, go back to the Nikayas. I have one more way of checking.

Do these ways of thinking appear in the Nikayas? I remember the one who said, enjoy your life so that you get fed up, then you give up. Now, is it in the Nikayas? No, there’s nothing in the Nikayas.

[00:36:19] Cheryl: And I’m well, I’m curious. What about within Buddhism? There’s so many different traditions.

Yeah. And they can be most of them are similar, but some can be quite different, especially in terms of the focus and the meditation techniques. And I tend to lean towards the conservative side, meaning if I found a tradition that I feel like, okay, that’s It helps me. I think that I am aligned with the teachings.

 And I believe this is the same for many people as well, where they say, don’t go and confuse yourself.

[00:36:51] Uncle Vijaya: Four Noble Truths. That’s all the Buddha teaches.

He kept saying that. I only teach one thing, suffering, the end of suffering. All that I’m here to do is to teach you to be happy. Now you want to find this by being happy, Go ahead. Does it make you happy? Gotami again. Yeah. Certainly I agree with you. I’m a Theravadin. I have accepted it.

I have a great deal of interest in what all the other traditions teach. I have found after so many years that all these great traditions all teach the same Four Noble Truths. The Buddha’s teaching is so comprehensive there are all these different methods to suit different personalities. Even the Buddha himself, he didn’t teach the same thing to everybody.

He saw people’s capacities. Intelligent people, he taught intelligent things. People who couldn’t understand, he just said, rub this white cloth… you can become enlightened, these traditions of Buddhism arose to suit different temperaments, but do they all lead to the ultimate truth?

Do they all lead to nirvana it does for those individuals? So be it. I have enough problems looking after my own salvation. I don’t even have time to worry about my grandchildren.

[00:38:36] Cheryl: Yeah. And then it goes back to the point that time is so limited. This human rebirth is so, so rare. Yes. What are we doing? Why waste our time being a busy-body.

[00:38:49] Uncle Vijaya: Exactly. You just follow the Four Noble Truths. Do good. Avoid evil. Purify the mind. It’s simple as that. All these Nikayas, all these, it’s good for the intelligent man.

But what the Buddha says that we don’t want all that, we don’t need all of that. We need the simple do good, five precepts, avoid evil, five ennoblers, purify the mind. Rid your mind of lobha (greed), dosa (aversion), moha (delusion). You’re free, but it’s very, very difficult. You know that story, don’t you?

About this guy, Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma is the great Indian saint who brought Buddhism to China and Japan. Anyway, on his way to China, he was stopped by a chief. When the chief caught hold of Venerable Bodhidharma, he said, teach me about Buddhism. Bodhidharma was going to go into a one hour talk. He said, no, I don’t have time for that. Just tell me in four lines. What does Buddhism teach? Very easy. Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. So the guy says, if that is all, then your Buddhism, any child of five can understand.

A child of five can understand, cannot practice. That is the point. Purify the mind. Do good, avoid evil. I think most of us can. Purify the mind to remove the anger, hatred, jealousy, all of this, you know, mess up the mind. Can we clarify that?

If, as he says to Gotami, if all these different traditions can help me purify the mind, your tradition may not help me purify my mind. My tradition, I’m comfortable. So I find the tradition that helps me best.

[00:41:04] Cheryl: Thank you so much for sharing. And I think with that, we can come to the end of this episode as well. I personally gained so much from Uncle Vijaya’s teachings where he puts things in such a simple way to understand, cuts through all the nonsense and go back to the Buddha’s teachings, check against what He mentioned or didn’t mention. From there with a clear mind, objective mind discern for ourselves whether whatever information that we gain can actually benefit us or not. Thank you to all our listeners who have come towards the end. And I hope you like this episode. Give us five stars and share this with your friends.

See you stay happy and wise.

Resources:

Special thanks to our sponsors:

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Editor and transcriber of this episode: 

Cheryl Cheah, Susara Ng, Ke Hui Tee

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Ep 37: 84 Years A Buddhist – Profound Lessons on Life, Death and Kamma

Ep 37: 84 Years A Buddhist – Profound Lessons on Life, Death and Kamma

About the Speaker

Vijaya Samarawickrama, fondly known as Uncle Vijaya, is a respected figure within Buddhist communities, delivering countless inspiring Dhamma talks at universities, schools, and Dhamma centers throughout Malaysia, as well as in Singapore and Australia, spanning over six decades. In addition to his speaking engagements, he held the role of Patron at the Sasana Abhiwurdhi Wardhana Society in Kuala Lumpur and served as the Chairman of Nalanda Institute’s Education team. He represented Malaysia in various Buddhist conventions and conferences, both locally and internationally. He has authored over a dozen booklets, with more than 150,000 copies distributed worldwide. Before his retirement, he held the position of a senior lecturer at Universiti Teknologi Malaysia and worked as a lecturer in Drama and Theatre, Public Speaking, and World Religion at Taylor’s University American Degree Program.


Key takeaways from this interview:

Lessons on Acceptance and Philosophical Reflection:

Uncle Vijaya’s journey began with early losses, losing his parents during World War II and the communist insurgency. His acceptance of these circumstances reflects a philosophical perspective on life and death. He emphasizes the inevitability of death, quoting Shakespeare, “Death, a necessary end will come when it will come.”

Facing Personal Loss and Evolving Perspectives:

From the death of his parents at a young age to the recent losses of siblings, Uncle Vijaya shares how his perspective on death evolved. Overcoming the “Why Me?” syndrome, he embraces a philosophical approach, recognizing the transient nature of life and the importance of being prepared for the inevitable.

The Buddhist Approach to Death:

Uncle Vijaya delves into the Buddhist perspective on death, emphasizing the present moment’s significance. He quotes the Kālāma Sutta, highlighting the Buddha’s teaching on doing good for the sake of a good mind, rather than seeking rewards in an afterlife.

Readiness for Death and Living in the Present:

Addressing the common fear of death, Uncle Vijaya guides listeners to focus on the present moment. He encourages cultivating a good mind by following the five precepts and purifying the mind from defilements. The readiness to face death lies in being mindful and living a meaningful life.

Metta, Karuna, Mudita, and Upekkha: Keys to Well-being:

Uncle Vijaya introduces the four Brahma Viharas as essential practices for creating well-being. He explains Metta (Loving-Kindness), Karuna (Compassion), Mudita (Altruistic Joy), and Upekkha (Equanimity) as tools to transcend selfishness and cultivate happiness within.

Equanimity: Beyond Emotionlessness:

Contrary to misconceptions, equanimity (Upekkha) doesn’t imply emotionlessness. Uncle Vijaya clarifies that the Buddha, while displaying equanimity, had his emotions under strict control. Equanimity involves maintaining compassion without personal attachment, as exemplified by a surgeon performing a critical operation.

Applying Brahma Viharas to Grief and Loss:

Uncle Vijaya advises empathy over preaching when someone is grieving. He emphasizes the importance of physicalizing pain through communal rituals, acknowledging the wisdom of funeral rites in helping individuals come to terms with loss.


Transcript of the Interview

Click here for the transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl:

Welcome to the Handful of Leaves podcast episode. Today I have with me, Uncle Vijaya dialing in from BGF KL. Welcome Uncle Vijaya.

[00:00:10] Uncle Vijaya:

Thank you, Sukhi Hotu (May you be well and happy).

[00:00:13] Cheryl:

Very lovely to have you here. Today we will be talking about love, death and dying. A quick introduction about Uncle Vijaya. He is a prominent figure in the Buddhist circles, having given more than 100 talks in universities, schools and Dhamma centers for the last six decades. He’s also a longstanding member of the Sasana Abhiwurdi Wardhana Society in KL, as well as the Nalanda Institute. Uncle Vijaya has represented Malaysia in numerous Buddhist conventions and conferences, both locally and abroad. And he has also given numerous inspiring Dhamma talks throughout Malaysia, Singapore, and Australia. So very honored to have you here, Uncle Vijaya.

[00:00:58] Uncle Vijaya:

Thank you for calling me.

[00:01:00] Cheryl:

Thank you. This is a very challenging topic on death and dying. Would you like to open and share with us about your personal experiences with loss?

[00:01:12] Uncle Vijaya:

Ah, personal experience with loss. Yes. But personal experience with death, not yet. I’m now 83 years old. So I’ve seen lots of people come into my life and a lot of people leaving. Yeah. And it doesn’t surprise me. Only this year, I lost two sisters. One sister died in January, just this year. And the other sister died in February in Singapore. Since I’m talking about being 83 years old, I lost my parents at a very, very young age. I was only six years old when my mother passed away just after the Second World War. So she was actually a victim of the deprivations that we went through during that time.

Then soon after that the communist insurgency took over and my father was killed by the communists when I was 12 years old. So, I’m no stranger to death. And it did affect me in a lot of ways, but the moral of the story is in the end we survived. It was difficult, I could have been bitter about it, could have blamed a lot of other people. But from my vantage point now, I’m saying, well, that’s the way kamma works. So I’m ready for the worst.

[00:02:41] Cheryl:

Thanks for sharing. I’m very curious to know from the first death that you experienced at six years old and just this year at 83 years old, how has your perspective changed in terms of accepting this death of your loved ones?

[00:02:56] Uncle Vijaya:

I think the word that comes to mind is philosophical. It’s something that, when I was younger, I resisted. And the “Why Me?” Syndrome. Why should I have to suffer this kind of thing? But as you go through life, and you see people dying at every stage of their own lives from very young to very old, and it is something that happens to everybody. What’s flashing through my mind is Shakespeare, where Julius Caesar says, of all the wonders that I have yet heard and seen, it seems to me most strange that men should fear seeing that death a necessary end will come when it will come. When I learned that I was in form five, so I was about 15, 16 years old. It didn’t mean what it means today to me. When it comes, it will come. You just have to be prepared for it. That’s what the Buddha says all the time. Death is not something you can predict. You can design, you can create. When it happens, are you ready? Then again, it’s not so much the fear of the actual act of dying, but what happens after that? Where will I go? What will I do?

And in the Kālāma Sutta (AN 3.65), the Buddha has a beautiful teaching on that. How do we approach death? How do we regard death? What will happen when I die? There are those who believe that when I die, I will either go to a heaven or to a hell. So what is my reason for doing good? My doing good is to book a place in heaven, but the Buddha says, what if you spend your whole life and it’s still fun being good, and you make so many sacrifices and you work so hard trying to be good all the time, hoping that when you die, you will go to heaven. Okay. You will go to heaven. Then the Buddha asked, what if you do all of this and then you die and you find there’s nothing out there. If there is a heaven, well and good. Even if there is a hell, well and good. What if there is no heaven, no hell.

Then the Buddha says, that’s not the reason we are good. We don’t do good in order to get that reward in heaven or that punishment. We do good because in this life, good is rewarded by good states of mind. So I live this life. Yeah, basically following the five precepts, the basic minimum, all right, I do that. And always in the knowledge that as I go through this life, I am not creating problems, I’m not running away from problems. I’m spreading happiness. I’m spreading well-being. And that itself is my reward. If there is a heaven, I accept that reward. If there is no heaven, I have not lost anything in this life. This is the Buddhist reason for being good. The Buddha doesn’t base his teaching on something that cannot be proven. Heaven and hell cannot be proven. Another life cannot be proven. The Buddha says don’t waste your time worrying about those things. What is important is the now, to be ready.

Again, we go back to Shakespeare, the fear of death. In Hamlet, there is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. Every life, every death. There is a reason. There is a moment. We are thinking of the fear of death. We are afraid that we will die. If we die now, then don’t worry. Because you don’t have to worry tomorrow. You’re already dead. You see? Yeah. So if it be now, it is not to come. If it is not to come, it is now. If it be not now, yet it will come. If it be now, whether it’s now or future or never, it will come. Then comes the lovely line, Buddha’s line, Buddha would approve. The readiness is all.

In Buddhism, we always talk about the present moment. At this moment of time, am I ready to die at the next breath? Are we ready? It’s as simple as that. Don’t worry about heaven, hell, preparation for funerals. We can talk about that. After that, you go alone. The only thing that can follow you is your kamma. Your good kamma, or your bad kamma. That’s your relative. That’s your friend. That’s your inheritance. That’s the only thing you take away with you. But in the meantime, the readiness is all. Are you ready to die next moment?

[00:08:29] Cheryl:

How can we be ready? Because I feel like for most of us, we are very busy. We are very stressed. We are never really in the present moment. And we really just try to pretend that death doesn’t come to us, especially when we are still young.

[00:08:43] Uncle Vijaya:

Yeah, but the Buddha says you look all around you. It’s happening to you all the time. That’s why we say of the best realms to be born in is this human realm, because in this human realm, you don’t have a fixed lifespan, where you can say, Oh, I have 40,000 years to live like you can in the deva world. You can never predict. You can never tell what will happen. Nobody needs to tell you that. Your existence in this world, you are going through the experience. People are dying in front of your eyes. Some dying at the age of a few months. Some dying when they’re 90 years old, some waiting to die, cannot die. And then we see all of that happening all around us. We don’t need the Buddha to tell us that. And the Buddha keeps saying, use your own eyes, experiential. And how can you then say it won’t happen to me? How can you then say it won’t happen to me tomorrow? Use your human intelligence. Don’t believe whatever people tell you, don’t believe what the scriptures tell you. Okay. Use your own eyes. This is the Buddha’s teaching. So you are young, that’s denial. Denial is different from not seeing the truth.

So the readiness is all back again. And then the Buddha says all the time, don’t worry about tomorrow because it’s not come yet. Don’t worry about yesterday. It’s already gone. All that you have over which you have control is this life, is the now. It is this present moment that you can control. You can’t control anything else. When you know that, then you say, okay, what do I do to make this present moment meaningful? And the Buddha has a teaching for that. He says to make this moment meaningful, do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. Purify the mind, get your mind clear of lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), moha (ignorance). Ignorance, greed, and hatred. These are the things that are eating at us. These are the defilements. Those three, remove them, remove them. Make sure you destroy your illusion. Don’t pretend that there is a real person here. Sitting down here. How do you understand that? What do you understand by me, I, self? What does that mean? When you understand that, when you see what composes you, then your hatred, your attachment, you stop holding on, grabbing. And because when you grab, you suffer. When you let go, you are free. All these negative states, get rid of (them). Full-time job. Full-time job. Okay?

So do good, avoid evil, easy. Five precepts. But that’s not enough. If all it takes to be a good Buddhist, do good, don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t commit sexual misconduct, don’t tell lies, don’t take drugs. If that is all that it requires, my dog is a very good Buddhist. My dog doesn’t kill. He doesn’t steal. Well, the other one, I don’t know. The dog doesn’t tell lies. And has he ever smoked a cigarette? But what’s the difference? We are Manussa (human). Manussa (human), that which has a mind that can be developed. Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. That’s the difference between us and the dog. And that’s the opportunity we have. What does the purification of the mind mean? Get rid of your delusion. Get rid of your greed. Get rid of your aversion. You get these three, you are living in a state of happiness and peace here and now. So while I’m in that state and I die, it stands to reason that state will continue into the next life. So I go to heaven, heaven. So the Buddha says it’s very easy. Don’t worry about heaven. Be in heaven now. Yeah.

Which brings us to the next point, be in heaven now, how do you do that? Buddha has the answer. He says we follow the four Brahma Vihara, the four states of well-being, the four states of happiness, Brahma Vihara, Brahma in Hinduism is heaven, is God. Vihara, a dwelling place. Where God dwells is heaven. The Buddha says, you don’t have to die to go to heaven. You create the conditions of heaven here through Brahma Viharas. Metta (Loving-Kindness), Karuna (Compassion), Mudita (Altruistic Joy), Upekkha (Equanimity). Remember, it’s all in the mind. Metta is the state of well-being, the state of feeling good about yourself, and radiating that feeling of goodwill, of love, of unconditional love towards all that exists. Not fellow humans, not fellow Buddhists, anything that breathes.

If you can have that feeling of love and contentment, you don’t need to go to heaven to be happy. You are happy here and now. And if in that state you die, you are automatically born into a good world. It’s not work or trying. It’s just creating the condition, creating the condition, that’s being Buddhist. Okay. Don’t worry about others. Don’t point fingers at others and say, they don’t do this, they don’t do that. You know, they’re stupid. We are clever. No, worry about your state of mind. So you have Metta. Metta is where it is sort of unilateral. It just spreads all over. You don’t choose. You don’t pick whom you love and whom you don’t. That’s Metta.

[00:15:47] Cheryl:

But I find that Metta is very counterintuitive because a lot of times we place conditions on why we love, what we love, who we love.

[00:15:57] Uncle Vijaya:

That’s why we have this word, unconditional love. As a mother loves her only child, so do I spread this feeling of happiness, goodness towards all beings. Buddha doesn’t stop there. Two legged, four legged, no legged, moisture borne, womb borne. He covers everything that breathes. So if you say, I only love my son. No, no, no, that immediately disqualifies. Immediately because at the end of all of this, you are working towards destroying your illusion that there is an “I” in here. The process is to kill the ego.

[00:16:47] Cheryl:

Just to tie this back to your own experiences of losing your parents, because they were victims of World War II and the communist insurgency. How did you, if you ever develop Metta for the people who harmed your parents?

[00:17:03] Uncle Vijaya:

At that point of time, and even today, I think I don’t see a connection between what happened to my parents and what happened in the world. My parents had to follow their own kamma, and I had to follow my own kamma in that I had to be born through them. That was part of my kamma. I accept that. In spite of the earlier childhood, thanks to the fact that I had an Uncle and an Aunt who adopted me and educated me, after that, I went on my own. So whatever pleasant situation I’m enjoying now was partly that I didn’t surrender to it. But at the same time, I didn’t waste time on self-pity. That’s important. And Buddhism taught me that from a very young age. This is okay. Somebody else is happier than me. Okay. Which brings me back to Metta.

Karuna is where you feel compassion to somebody who is not as well as you. I’m doing well. I mean, during tsunamis, we Buddhists have gone around helping everybody in the world without being selective or without any ulterior motive. Okay. So there’s Metta, there’s Karuna, when you are okay, your friend is not, and you feel compassion for that person. It’s easy when I’m doing well to feel compassion for the next guy. But what if that guy is doing well and you are not? How do you feel joy at your friend’s well-being when you yourself are not? When you destroy your ego, that’s possible. I have lots and lots of experiences where others have done much better than me, but I have not resented that. I’m happy for them. And you can see it’s a higher level of love, that we call Mudita. Mudita is joy at other people’s happiness.

Now all of these are worldly. Worldly forms of happiness involve “self”-ishness. It starts off with me. An “I” is involved. Then comes the higher level, which is symbolized by the lotus flower. Every Buddhist knows this. Why do we select the lotus flower? Because where does the lotus flower grow? In the mud. In the filthy, black, smelly mud, but the flower draws its sustenance from all of these. It rises above the water, pure and perfect. One of the most beautiful things on planet Earth draws from here (the mud). This is samsara. Anger, hatred, greed, jealousy, lobha, dosa, and moha. Everything we are churning in here. We are born into this. But when body is sick, don’t let mind be sick as well. Don’t let your mind get inward. Keep this above. Now that we call Upekkha (equanimity).

We have Metta, we have Karuna, we have Mudita, and then we have the highest level, which is the level of the Buddha. Okay? Where you… Radiate these kinds of well-being towards all without yourself being involved like a surgeon. A surgeon is operating on his mother. He cannot see his mother there. He must only see his function of destroying pain. And he cannot say, Oh, my poor mother. I’m sorry, ma. I’m sorry. I cannot. He has to remove himself. He has to have enormous amounts of compassion, but it cannot be personalized.

[00:21:18] Cheryl:

So equanimity or Upekka is not the same as being emotionless and detached and not feeling anything.

[00:21:23] Uncle Vijaya:

Ah, yes. Yes. You see, the Buddha was never emotionless. He had his emotions under strict control. The love that a mother has for her only son. That’s the love we have to spread. So when the surgeon is operating on his mother, he must have the same concern for her wellbeing as if a beggar is being operated on. Or if his enemy is being operated on. The Buddha was the embodiment of these four aspects, but you have to transcend all. When the Buddha experiences equanimity, he sees suffering. He cannot say, well, he’s only suffering here.

He sees the suffering, he actually physically helped a monk who was suffering from dysentery and was covered in his own filth and nobody wanted to go near him. But the Buddha personally went in there and bathed him, washed his robes and so on, preached to him until he died. So you cannot say that the Buddha was emotionless. Probably he was emotionless in the sense that an “I” is not involved. But there is suffering. I will do something to eradicate that suffering. Similarly, a surgeon is not burdened by that emotion. If you’re burdened with an emotion of love or pity or whatever, then you’re caught. But if you are only controlled by compassion, you can do a better job. And all of that here and now, not next life, not I born as an angel, I come and help you.

[00:23:33] Cheryl:

Right. And how can we apply this for Brahma Viharas to, let’s say, someone who is experiencing the grief and the pain of losing a very dear one. It could be death, but it could be heartbreak in all other forms, breakups, someone cheat on you or whatever else.

[00:23:53] Uncle Vijaya:

I would say. The first thing you should do is don’t preach to him. Don’t go and tell him, you know, as a good Buddhist, you should have Metta, Karuna, and Lotus flower. This guy is already suffering. I think any religion would teach you the word empathize. Your pain, I feel. I can only hug you. I can only hold your hand and I can only genuinely tell you that I experienced this with you, but to tell that person he’s wrong or that tell that person he cannot, he shouldn’t suffer. That’s wrong. You just lost your mother. You’re suffering. You’re crying. You’re in pain. I am as helpless as you, but I can hold you as a fellow sufferer. Now, I feel really that in the wisdom of the human race. If you really think about it, funeral rites are a waste of time. Somebody has died, and we go through this whole thing like, you know, scratching the nose like this, you know, just to keep… But I think it’s a terribly important thing.

What we are doing is the community gets together to physicalize our pain. We are so busy choosing the coffin. We are so busy getting the house ready. We are so busy talking to the undertakers. We are so busy that we have no time to have that self-pity to go inwards. And you have the seven days, you have the 49 days, you have the hundred days. All of this is the wisdom of our ancestors who gave us all these things to do and it’s all set into a community. So by the time seven days are over, you’re already coming to terms with the reality of the loss. All right. Yeah. Then three months. And then one year and each time we have got rituals to follow.

Don’t condemn the rituals and say, no, don’t burn paper, don’t do this, don’t do that. If you can cut down the cost, well and good. If you can meaningfully do these actions rather than burn a Porsche, go and give that money to an old folks home. You can transfer but the activity is the same. You don’t need to condemn others for what they do. Behind that is the physicalization of this extra energy that comes to protect you when you are suffering from this loss. That takes you on to about a year, after which more water goes under the bridge. Yeah, you’re sort of come to terms with it. This is the wisdom. But to say that, oh, he died. I’m a Buddhist, go ahead, send to the crematorium. I don’t even waste my time coming to see the dead body. It’s not the dead body that you’re seeing there.

You are giving rise to a very important word in Buddhism, Kataññutā. Kataññutā is we call one of the highest blessings. It is a state of mind of gratitude. This person has died, yes, but it is not just six feet of flesh and blood that’s lying in the coffin there. This person, when he was alive, helped me, did such and such for me, hugged me, kissed me, fed me. Now all of this at this point of time, I remember with gratitude. Knowing what good has been done to you. A lot of the time we, as children, will say, but I didn’t choose you as my parents. Why should I be grateful? No. Nine months when you were in the womb, what you were going through.

Okay. Now, of course. You are gone. How can I repay you? Kataññutā includes two things. Knowing what good has been done and what can I do to repay. It’s not just gratitude, it is reciprocating that gratitude. I think on a higher level, we can say as citizens, we need to remember that it’s very easy to complain and say that, we deserve better. But if we took the time to recognize how much good we have, is it enough just to sit down there and accept that as if it’s my right? What do I do about it? So my mother has died. I know all that she has done. What can I do about it? I can do good work, and if it is possible, to transfer it to the other side. If she’s in a position to receive (to rejoice at the good deed), well and good. If she’s not, whatever good I do in my mother’s name is not wasted because I have done good. I feel no more guilt, no more guilt. I have done something for my mother’s benefit. The more active you are, the easier it is for you to sort of sublimate your pain until a time comes when you develop what Shakespeare would call the philosophical mind, the mind that says, okay, she has gone and there’s no more pain. I’ve come to terms with it. All right. And of course, don’t forget while I’m coming to terms with it, new losses are coming. That’s kamma. So don’t tenggelam (drown), stay above, lotus flower.

[00:30:01] Cheryl:

And what about people who do not have good relationships with the dying? Let’s say the parents were abusive. Let’s say the parents were not good, distant and they hold a lot of resentment and grudges, even as their loved ones are passing on. How can one deal with this?

[00:30:24] Uncle Vijaya:

Okay. Before I throw a hot burning coal at you, hoping to burn you, who gets burned first? You. The one holding it. The one holding it. If you’re holding filth and throwing filth at others, imagine your own hand gets filthy first. Remember that. When you are going to talk about anger, you did so and so to me, even before you think of the other person, you have already polluted yourself. So your intelligent mind should say, protect yourself. And how do you protect yourself Four Brahma Vihara? It’s not easy. I’m sitting down here and saying, may you be well and happy. May you be well. How can I say when, when inside me I’m burning and I hate myself. Can you be so negative and then radiate positive? Cannot. You got to work. It’s not easy. Nobody ever said Buddhism is an easy religion to follow. Teaching it is very easy. Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. All of Buddhism taught (that), which reminds me of a story.

Bodhidharma was a great Indian saint, Buddhist monk who went to China to teach Buddhism. On the way he met a chieftain and the chieftain asked him, tell me what does the Buddha teach? He said, very easy. Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. And then the guy says, some more. He said, what? Some more what? You ask for three, I give you three. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. Do good. Avoid evil. Purify the mind. Okay? Then the chief said, Oh, that means your teaching is so simple. Even a child of five can understand. And Bodhidharma replied, yes, a child of five can understand, but a man of 80 cannot practice.

Do good, avoid evil, no problem. It goes back to your question about anger, hatred and all. Nobody said it’s easy, but the higher the mountain, the greater the satisfaction when you climb to the top. So know that it’s difficult, but remember the reward is absolute. You don’t need to wait to die to benefit from the reward of that, you’re saying, if I have anger and hatred, whatever bad a person may have done, especially if it’s a parent, at least that parent gave you life. So all the bad things that came was later, nobody is 100 percent. So you need to take the effort to examine what good did this person do to me? And then dwell on that. Is it easy? Of course not. But nobody said Buddhism is easy.

[00:33:38] Cheryl:

Then on that note, how can the busy modern person, being overwhelmed by so many responsibilities, what are some small steps or practical things that they can do in their life just to get started?

[00:33:51] Uncle Vijaya:

Start now. Start now. Start with whatever can be done. Simple things like if the maid forgets to switch on the light and before you blow your top, purify the mind, keep telling yourself, look within, look within, look without. Okay. So if you keep all the time watching yourself for mistakes that you are making, don’t worry about others. The more you worry about yourself, the less time you have to worry about what others did to you. You do enough damage to yourself every day. Don’t waste your time with others. Again, not easy.

If you go to Japan, there is a doll that’s like that with a round base. What happens to that doll is called the Daruma doll. When you push the doll, what happens? It comes back. Our Buddhist life is like that. Five precepts, yes, but we break them all the time. But then we say, Kāyena vācā cittena pamādena mayā kataṃ. If by thought, word or deed I have done anything wrong, may the Buddha, forgive me. Buddha is not there to forgive you. You forgive yourself for your negative deeds. You did it. You say, okay, nevermind. Don’t do it again. So, first time I fell. I shouted at her. I know this is wrong. Either I apologize or in a kind way I make up for that. Tomorrow, when she’s going to do that, the temptation is there, but you have already practiced coming back. You come back faster and faster and faster until a time comes when you move from two words – Silava, Silamayo.

We’ll talk about Silava. A Buddha or an Arahant is purified. A Buddha and an Arahant cannot tell lies. It’s out of the system. If you give me a chicken and give me a knife and say, cut the chicken’s neck, I cannot do it, I cannot do it. You know, it’s out of my system. But I can tell a lie.

[00:36:08] Cheryl:

People love to navigate around that. Maybe a white lie is okay. A half-lie is okay.

[00:36:14] Uncle Vijaya:

We rationalize but the Buddha cannot. On the other hand, we are Silamayo. Silamayo means we are trying to be good. Do good, avoid evil, purify the mind. Fall, come up, do again, do again. It’s a process. It’s a process of purification. This is psychologically very important because otherwise the standards are too high. We cannot be Buddhas overnight. But when we know the system and we are working at it, the purification program, we know that it is taught by the Buddha.

Think of the Dhamma as an ocean. At the beach, it is very shallow. Only your toes get wet, but the deeper you go, the more wet you become. Beginning Buddhism, take it easy. Take it easy. Do what little you can, but as you get more and more purified and you understand more and more, the deeper you get, okay, the more wet you become, but it’s a slow process. Don’t expect instant enlightenment. It takes a long, long time. But it begins with wisdom, it begins with understanding. And that’s the process at which we are in the learning, the theoretical part, but the theory is important. Look within, look without.

[00:37:47] Cheryl:

Thanks so much for sharing. And I just wanted to circle back to an idea that you shared in the middle of the conversation about kamma. Can you share with us what is kamma in simple terms? And how will that help us to navigate death and life?

[00:38:03] Uncle Vijaya:

All right. Okay. One impossible task. You said simple explanation. There’s no such thing. Kamma is very, very complicated, very misunderstood, very misrepresented. Actually, kamma has gone into the English language. It’s a word in the English language. Kamma simply means action, just action. So at the moment, I’m the action of sitting down. That’s kamma. But in the English language, the nuance is, it’s something bad. It’s something negative. You see, when we talk about kamma in a Western sense, it’s something negative.

[00:38:49] Cheryl:

Like kamma will bite you.

[00:38:51] Uncle Vijaya:

Yeah, and I think you and I are both guilty of the same thing. When anything bad happens to us, we say what to do, my bad kamma. But if anything good happens, we say, thank God. You see, thank God and my kamma. That’s not all. Kamma is simply a very neutral word. No sentiment attached to it, but it can be negative or positive. Kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome). And both of which is very important. You said simply, where does kamma begin? Now we are talking about purifying the mind. Kamma begins in the mind, it has to be motivated by that. That’s why I say kāyena (deeds), vācā (speech), cittena (thoughts). We have a thought, we have an intention, cetāna. That intention is translated into speech, into the body and into the mind. Body, speech, mind. All kammas originate in this way. If there is no intention, there is no kamma.

I’m walking on the road and I don’t see a cockroach and I step on the cockroach, the cockroach dies. I am not guilty because I had no intention of killing the cockroach. On the other hand, I see the same cockroach and I hate cockroaches and I (step on the cockroach) and say to hell with you, bad kamma has been made. Same action, one has intention, one has not. Very important to make that distinction. Now that intention has two streams. One stream is that intention is controlled. The intention comes from lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), moha (ignorance). Remember the ignorance, the anger, the greed. Now that is the defilement that is inside our untrained mind. Because they are all three negative, the intention is guarded by that, out comes anger, hatred, greed, jealousy, my whole body, all my actions are polluted. So bad karmic actions derive from bad sources. And what are the bad sources? Lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), moha (ignorance).

Incidentally, an Arahant (Enlightened being) has eradicated all of that. Therefore, Aloba (non-greed), Adosa (non-hatred), Amoha (wisdom). So the defilements have turned positive, these positives control the intention, the intention governs the kāyena (deeds), vācā (speech), cittena (thoughts). So basically this is kamma. So if you want to realign your Buddhist practice, look at your Lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), moha (ignorance). Your illusion gives you a sense of an “I”, “I” gives you a sense of “my”, “my” gives you a sense of “self”-ishness. When I work for my own benefit at the expense of others, that’s bad kamma. I create akusala, non-skillful.

Notice this is not a sin, a very important point. It’s not sin. God tells you don’t do something and you curi-curi (secretly) go and do that. So that is a sin. This one no. This is motivated by ignorance. Not knowing any better, you do this. This is unskillful. On the other hand, with the teaching of the Dhamma, you understand and you know this killing of a cockroach is wrong. I refrain from doing this. Also, because I have now taken the Buddhist path. And I’m now realigning my journey. I don’t want to go to heaven. I want to attain Nirvana, which is a completely different thing. So everything that I do leads me towards my goal. This we call Kusala. Kusala is skillful, nothing to do with crime and punishment, nothing to do with sin. It has to do with doing things that lead you up and things that lead you down. Kusala, skillful. Akusala, unskillful. So I don’t punish you for doing that. I don’t condemn you. If you knew better, you won’t do it.

[00:43:39] Cheryl:

And the one who doesn’t know better is suffering a lot as well.

[00:43:42] Uncle Vijaya:

Is suffering more than you think, yes. All those guys in jail, all those drug addicts, all those murderers. Do you think if they had a better life, they would do what they did? No, so what we need is our compassion and our understanding towards the wrongdoer, not to punish him, but to educate. And this again, Buddhist teaching. It is education, which is our strongest social not punishment and incarceration.

[00:44:18] Cheryl:

Wow. Thank you so much, Uncle Vijaya.

[00:44:20] Uncle Vijaya:

Was that a simple explanation of kamma? There’s a lot more to kamma.

[00:44:25] Cheryl:

I have a lot more questions, actually. For example, the intentions could be… Not crystal clear. So I can give you an example where I feel something crawling on me and then I will just, you know, just absentmindedly, try to move it away and maybe somewhere in my mind, I know, okay. It’s probably an ant. I don’t like the ant, but at the same time, I also didn’t think too much. Then I accidentally killed it. So is that good or bad kamma?

[00:44:48] Uncle Vijaya:

You are guilty of unmindfulness.

[00:44:52] Cheryl:

Oh, that’s such a thing.

[00:44:54] Uncle Vijaya:

Yes, that is a very important thing. A lot of the time we say, you are not as guilty as if this sensation comes, you know it is an ant, you hate ants, your anger arises, your hatred arises, and the amount of energy you get, like, argh! The amount of energy spent creating those negative emotions, that is what you pay for. On the other hand, a mosquito comes and you say, Okay, you’re unmindful. If you’re mindful, then you’ll say, Ah, stop. You are training yourself.

[00:45:34] Cheryl:

And when you say we pay, what does that mean? Because some people will have funny ideas of like, Oh, next time I will then become that mosquito or ant, and someone will squeeze me…

[00:45:41] Uncle Vijaya:

One to one. Absolutely no, no, no. Kamma is not just one. Kamma is one of five cosmic laws. And you said, keep it simple. We’re getting very complicated. The universe operates on five natural laws, cosmic laws. And these are called Niyamas. Utu Niyama, Bija Niyama, Citta Niyama, Kamma Niyama, Dhamma Niyama. Utu Niyama, physical laws. Physical laws of gravity and so on. (Bija Niyama) Biological laws, okay? So, organic, inorganic laws. Psychological laws, Citta Niyama. What happens in the mind? Then you have Kamma Niyama, moral laws, right and wrong, good and bad. It’s only one law, all of this. And then you have what is called Dhamma Niyama. Dhamma covers all of this. Like the Tao, the Tao is this together with everything that entails it. It’s a little bit complicated.

But the point I want to make is, you don’t get necessarily punished according to karmic laws, things can go wrong. If you are born as a human being, you cannot but die by the time you are a hundred. You can’t say it’s your bad kamma that you had to die. That is where your biological laws come into play. Now, when a tear comes out of my eyes, the obvious thing is, I’m in pain. I’m crying. Not necessarily because I’m sad. It could just mean dust has gone into my eyes. That’s another biological law. That’s the point. Not everything runs according to karmic laws.

[00:47:52] Cheryl:

So maybe just to wrap things up. Is there anything else that you would want to share about grief, loss and the topic that we discussed today?

[00:48:02] Uncle Vijaya:

Grief, loss, and so on, as we said before, the Five Niyamas (cosmic laws) again come into play. All of these are natural occurrences. When you suffer, don’t suffer with the suffering. In Malay, we would say, when you fall from the ladder, don’t let the ladder fall on you. So equanimity, patience, understanding. These are the words that we have to develop as Buddhists. You don’t have to pray to the Buddha. Praying to the Buddha is a physical thing. Very helpful, very necessary to align us spiritually. You see, understand how the universe operates according to those five laws. So don’t blame everything on kamma. Death is one such thing. You don’t necessarily die because of your kamma. You die because as a human being, you cannot live past this. So we have to accept that. Sometimes it appears as if, at 17, one walks down the road, gets knocked down by a car and we find it very hard to accept. In that case, there may be a karmic influence. Whatever it is, there’s nothing we can do about it. Yeah. There’s nothing we can do to change it. And whatever we do, we are sort of physicalizing our pain.

So Buddhism teaches us to take a rational view of death, separation, and don’t expect it to be otherwise. This is the way kamma works. This is the way samsara (cycle of birth and death) operates. If you try to change it, you’re going against the stream. On the other hand, if you understand it, you are developing peaceful states of mind within yourself. You want to help those who have gone on to the other side, there’s very little you can do because their own kamma controls them. Okay, but it does you good because you are creating positive states of mind, especially Kataññutā, gratitude. You are physicalizing this gratitude. In the meantime, you are creating the four Brahma Viharas, states of well-being around yourself. These states of well-being, which you are practicing genuinely with understanding. These, you radiate. As you radiate around you, you become a source of happiness, and that’s your purpose in life, to be a source of happiness to others, including the smallest cockroach.

[00:51:12] Cheryl:

Thank you, Uncle Vijaya. This is very inspiring. I hope to all our listeners out there, you have learned something, and if you like this episode, please like, and subscribe to our Spotify, Handful of Leaves and share with your friends. And if you want to find Uncle Vijaya, you can search Buddhist Gem Fellowship. You can see some of his wonderful, wonderful talks on YouTube as well. Thank you very much, Uncle Vijaya. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.

[00:51:38] Uncle Vijaya:

Sadhu to you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. May you be well and happy. May all our listeners be well and happy always.

[00:51:49] Cheryl:

Sadhu.

Pāli Glossary:

  • Sukhi Hotu – A common Buddhist greeting that conveys the wish “May you be happy and well always.” When greeting more than one person, the plural, “Sukhi hontu” applies.
  • Kamma – Intentional action of moral import (producing for the agent an inevitable result or consequence in the same or another life). Can be Kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome).
  • Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha – Greed, Hatred, Delusion. Roots of unwholesome kamma.
  • Kataññutā – Gratitude, acknowledging the good that has been done to oneself.
  • Brahmavihārā – Four states of well-being i.e. mettā (Loving-Kindness), karuṇā (Compassion), muditā (Altruistic Joy), upekkhā (Equanimity).
  • Five Niyamas – Five natural laws that affect physical and mental phenomena i.e. Utu Niyama (Inorganic Laws), Bija Niyama (Organic Laws), Citta Niyama (Law of Mental Activities), Kamma Niyama (Moral Law), Dhamma Niyama (Natural Laws of Existence).

Resources:

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Editor and transcriber of this episode: Cheryl Cheah, Susara Ng, Ke Hui Tee

How a monk’s one word saved my marriage

How a monk’s one word saved my marriage

Editor: This is a two-part series of Dhamma and marriage where Ai En shares her turnaround in her marriage. The second part can be found here !

TLDR: My relationship with my husband was going stale and we both felt a sense of draining affection in our marriage; attending a Dhamma talk was a pivotal change for our relationship.

The salvation of marriage by a monk’s word, of course, sounds dramatic. Nevertheless, it is a true experience that changed things for my marriage.

My hope is that sharing my experience would give couples the courage to talk about their relationship and recollect why they are together in the first place.

Marriage was paradise

When my partner and I first got married, we were both young and naive at the age of 27. Having met in university, we quickly knew we were right for another as we liked the same Char Kway Teow store and loved the same arthouse movies. 

We happily said our vows 5 years after dating because ROM (Registry of Marriage) said we had to do it and not because we thought much of it. 

“Will you love him, comfort him, honour and keep him in sickness and in health and forsaking all others, be faithful to him, so long as you both shall live?” the solemnizer asked.

Such generic lines didn’t hold much value for us, we just wanted to get through the ROM and arduous wedding lunch out of the way and live our lives happily ever after.

Of course, things didn’t turn out that way.

The decline

We started to see growing misunderstandings and conflicts as we lived together. 

Different habits emerged. Different ways of money usage. I love to save while he was okay with moments of YOLO (You-Only-Live-Once) spending (because life is anicca [Pali term: impermanent], so might as well spend it, he believes). I would often chide him for butchering the Dhamma phrase of impermanence to justify random spending. 

We like to think of ourselves as simple people who have had little arguments. However, it was clear we were growing apart. 

We were leading separate lives and took each other for granted.

Yes, we shared a bed, but our lifestyles couldn’t be more different. He worked shift hours while I worked a 9-5 job. I did consulting work while he was a shift-work engineer. 

I felt that caring for him meant supporting all his hobbies and endeavours while he felt caring for me meant giving me gifts. FYI: Gifts won’t hold your marriage/ relationship together.

At difficult times, I silently questioned, “Did I marry the right guy?” I wasn’t sure how long we could ‘stand’ each other in a lukewarm relationship.

One word

As a Buddhist by birth, I am not one to care too much about Buddhism and its practice. The teachings were an afterthought.

However, these marital challenges got me to speak to a colleague who was a Buddhist practitioner and she introduced me to a witty monk, Ajahn Brahm

I skeptically plugged into a recording of his Dhamma talk after she persuaded me. It was on marriage. Below is the excerpt which talked about how Ajahn Brahm solemnises Buddhist weddings and stuns newlywed couples with his humour.

~

At the right moment in the proceedings, usually, after the rings have been exchanged, I look into the eyes of the new bride and tell her, “You are a married woman now. From this moment on, you must never think of yourself.” She immediately nods and smiles sweetly. 

Then I look at the groom and say, “You are now a married man. You also must not think of yourself anymore.” I don’t know what it is about guys, but the groom usually pauses for a few seconds before saying “Yes.”

Still looking at the groom, I continue, “And from this time on, you must never think of your wife.” Then quickly turning to the bride, I say to her, “And you must not think of your husband from now on.”

Confusion is a very effective teaching device. Once people are engaged in trying to solve a riddle, then you can teach them the answer and they pay attention. “Once you are married,” I explain, “you should not think of yourselves; otherwise you will be making no contribution to your marriage.

Also, once you are married, you should not always think of your partner; otherwise you will only be giving, giving, giving, until there’s nothing left in your marriage. “Instead, once you are married, think only of ‘us.’ You are in this together.” The couple then turn to each other and smile.

They get it straight away. Marriage is about “us,” not about me, not about him, not about her. To make sure they understand “The Secret,” I ask them, “When any problem arises in your marriage, whose problem is it?” “Our problem,” they answer together. “Very good!” I say with a grin.

~

“Instead, once you are married, think only of ‘us.’ You are in this together.” 

That word ‘us’ compelled tears through my usually tear-resistant eyes. 

My husband and I were living together and yet apart. We were ‘caring’ for each other and doing ‘what’s best’ for either me or him, but never for ‘us’. 

As we stopped seeing ourselves as ‘us’ and instead as individuals, our lives would inadvertently drift apart. Resentment would arise from unfulfilled wants and demands from each other. We resent one another for either giving ‘not enough’ or giving ‘the wrong thing’.

These teachings helped me to let go of my ego to see my partner in a new light. I began to understand that our relationship is not just about me and my needs, but that it is an interdependent partnership. 

It is about us.

How that one word saved us

After the tear-jerker Dhamma talk, I shared the recording with my husband, who also agreed on the state of our marriage. He felt that we were ‘going through the motion’ of routines together. He felt resentful that he was giving so much on one aspect of our relationship while I ‘failed’ to deliver on others. For example, the expectations that I should wash the dishes after cooking for him or him overpaying for some of the expensive dinners we have. 

However, the talk allowed him to reflect on a calculative mindset that was building in him. 

After three years, we felt this pivotal change of understanding about our relationship.

We immediately discussed how we could do things differently as  ‘us’ and not as individuals. We then decided that we needed to do the following: 

  1. Find rituals: Identify meaningful and tangible activities that we can do as a couple and challenge ourselves with. The ritual must be something that ‘us’ can see incremental growth in. Binge-watching HBO Max, Netflix doesn’t count as tangible!
  2. Hold MGMs: Monthly general meetings (MGMs) helped us talk about what we appreciated about one another, how we could improve and also where we would like to be supported.
  3. Meditate at least 2 times a week together: This wholesome activity gave us the opportunity to do something deep and spiritual together. If your partner is non-Buddhist, try to introduce mindfulness-based activities, like gardening or pottery! For us, the 2 times a week as is when our schedules align. Make it work!

These ‘solutions’ arose from the idea of ‘us’ and how we could strengthen that tie between us. 

Our marriage is now happier and more fulfilling than ever before. I am grateful to the Dhamma for helping us to get to this point. Thanks to Ajahn Brahm’s one word ‘US’, we saved the marriage.

I hope that this one word ‘us’ encourages you to rethink relationships that are dear to you.

May you and your loved ones be well and happy always.


Wise Steps:

  1. How often do we take our loved ones for granted? Reflecting on this brings awareness to our blindspots in the relationship
  2. How often do you use ‘we’ in a relationship instead of ‘I, me, myself’?
  3. Find your couple rituals, hold your MGMs and meditate together!